MRCA News and Discussion

[johnny_m]

While I think all of the Twin-Engined fighters are a bit of an overkill for IAF since we have the MKI, the Rafale seems to clearly the best fighter on offer to us, at this point the SH may offer better A2G. With Rafale and its passive detection abilities and the planned Active Stealth upgrades, it may even be able to counter stealthy fighters that China or America may sell to our dear western neighbours.

[ACHARYAA]

We can expect induction of FGFA by another decade. Then, we have outstanding multirole fighter aircraft in the form of SU-30 MKI. I dont know if MKIs are having any limitations against any particular type of mission. If not, why we are not going for the procurement of, say, another 150 MKIs? MKIs can be further developed by inducting AESA radar (may be the one Russians are reportedly using in MiG 35), and possibly next generation engine. This can be done by using half the amount earmarked for inducting MMRCAs. Rest of the money can be used for the development of the LCA. After all developing indigenous capabilities is a must.

[arya]

We can expect induction of FGFA by another decade. Then, we have outstanding multirole fighter aircraft in the form of SU-30 MKI. I dont know if MKIs are having any limitations against any particular type of mission. If not, why we are not going for the procurement of, say, another 150 MKIs? MKIs can be further developed by inducting AESA radar (may be the one Russians are reportedly using in MiG 35), and possibly next generation engine. This can be done by using half the amount earmarked for inducting MMRCAs. Rest of the money can be used for the development of the LCA. After all developing indigenous capabilities is a must.

OMG "not again"

[Gaur]

We can expect induction of FGFA by another decade. Then, we have outstanding multirole fighter aircraft in the form of SU-30 MKI. I dont know if MKIs are having any limitations against any particular type of mission. If not, why we are not going for the procurement of, say, another 150 MKIs? MKIs can be further developed by inducting AESA radar (may be the one Russians are reportedly using in MiG 35), and possibly next generation engine. This can be done by using half the amount earmarked for inducting MMRCAs. Rest of the money can be used for the development of the LCA. After all developing indigenous capabilities is a must.

Hi Acharya. Welcome to BRF!
This topic has been discussed too many times to count in the past. So, it is frustrating for the forum members to go through the same discussion every time a new member has this same question. So, please go through previous pages (and perhaps even previous versions of this thread) for your answer. But to give the answer in short, this has to do basically with:
1> Hoping to get TOT.
2> MKI needing 2 pilots and costly to maintain (being a heavy twin engined fighter) with "heavy twin engine" being a debatable point considering that Super Hornet is in the race.
Again, if after going though past pages you still have doubt, you can post in the newbie thread.

[Manish_Sharma]

Looks so much like an extra-terrestrial from head-on
Photo is by an ace photographer & friend of mine.

HIGH RES

That's it! I'm changing my vote to Rafale!

This is the bird IAF!

My contratulations to French for creating such a beauty!

Not to mention GaN based AESA and wait till engines get more power!

[Neshant]

other than 'Screw Driver Turning 101' there is nothing gained from so called TOT.

There is no way to download the brains of foreign scientists & engineers on how they went about researching and developing something.

Paying a huge amount for foreign planes is really just India subsidizing foreign hi-tech development.

I'm really sick of this word TOT which keeps being thrown around by people who think India is going to gain something by handing over big bucks.

[Gaur]

^^
I agree with you on this. This is why I wrote "hoping" to get TOT. I personally think that no one is foolish enough to give TOT of critical tech that took decades to develop. Which is why I belong to the group who cannot understand the rationale behind this whole MRCA circus. Again, this all has been discussed numerous times so I would not go deeper into this line of thinking.

[Karan M]

There is no denying of that the Rafale is a superlative fighter. But, don't take DACT results at its face value. There was wonderful link posted here some time back about how DACT is planed and the objectives. So the English might not have just come with the idea of winning one-on-ones. If they wanted to just know what the rafale is capable of, they had more take-aways than the French!

1. I know enough about DACT to understand what the above event represented, and it is still significant. It is invariably the case however, that once DACT occurs, the losers complain the most about how DACT is scripted etc and is meaningless, has too many variables. Shades of both Cope India & Ref Flag-08. Which behavior is equally facile. Read the article carefully first before jumping in as well. The French lead clearly points out that missile simulation apart, both sides used their sensors to advantage.

2. The more important point, which you missed, was the Brits were running a constant trash talk campaign about the Rafale claiming the EF was far superior using an all too willing journo

3. In recent days, both this event and a PR flight offered to an EXTP by Dassault who rated the Rafale FBW as the best he had ever flown (he had previously known the 2008 FBW of the Typhoon) have both shown that the Rafale is hardly the pushover the above propaganda campaign made it out to be.

Take a French article on a french aircraft with some caution. Neither the Rafale nor the EF are fully evolved platforms. And neither of them will be for some time to come.

1. I know enough about articles to know what to take with caution and what not to.
2. All platforms are evolving constantly, but the Rafale already has a high degree of maturity as all current evidence states.

Here is a perfectly valid example of what I just said. Nobody knows the RCS of either of these aircrafts. Those figures are never released! So who pointed out what!

1. Missed the point again.
2. The point was simply, that the Rafale has considerable RCS reduction applied to it, and the French crew found it to be an advantage against the EF, which makes it clear that the propaganda campaign against the Rafale RCS was bunk. If the Rafale had its clocks cleaned, the OEM would have been in hot water.
3. There are enough bits and pieces of information to determine that the Rafale RCS is fairly creditable ( you might want to look up articles by Bill Sweetman on the Rafale and by Pierre Condom -unfortunate name, I know)

[Samay]

Rafale during mrca trials in India

[Neshant]

I agree with you on this. This is why I wrote "hoping" to get TOT.

There is no getting of anything.

Its impossible to download the brains of foreign scientists and engineers.

So stop being fooled with the word TOT. Nothing is transferred except money from India to a foreign country.

[VishalJ]

Rafale during mrca trials in India

WRONG !
What is your source ?

That was the Rafale test frame used for cold weather trials in Europe,
this photo specifically is shot at Samden/St. Moritz, Switzerland !

Here's that very photo by Chris on A.net, read his remarks - http://www.airliners.net/photo/0477151/L/

[PratikDas]

^^^^ Perhaps this KT112 is more like it?


Added later: I should credit Lt-Dr Prateek for the photograph

[negi]

Wow the M2K type cammo looks good.

[Karan M]

I agree with you on this. This is why I wrote "hoping" to get TOT.

There is no getting of anything.

Its impossible to download the brains of foreign scientists and engineers.

So stop being fooled with the word TOT. Nothing is transferred except money from India to a foreign country.

Call it TOMT - transfer of manufacturing technology if you wish, but it is fairly valuable in its own right and India has used it well on several occasions in the past. For the MRCA as well, Gaur is right, the stipulation calls for 60% TOT, which will be negotiated on. The TOT will be fairly useful for maintaining an affordable, available inhouse support program for most of the requirements of the aircraft of the fleet. And over time, additional indigenization of the lower tech items will also be done as on other programs (e.g. MiG's).

So its a fairly useful thing as long as its reason is understood.

[Neshant]

Call it TOMT - transfer of manufacturing technology if you wish,

Manufacturing is the right word but it isn't so much manufacturing technology that is transferred as it is manufacturing process. Basically learning the manufacturing process is one step up from Screw Driver Turning 101. Nobody learns what the R&D effort was to come up with the manufacturing technology, just the process of how its used.

Its of very limited value.

How does one define % in that context anyway? 60% of what ? Its 0% of the R&D effort that went into creation of that manufacturing technology that's for sure.

Really all India is doing is subsidizing the R&D of a foreign country at great expense so lets not kid ourselves. The word ToT is just a bogus word designed to fool the buyer into thinking he's going to learn something when there's nothing much learnt.

[NRao]

Neshant,

You are closer to the truth. Just in past week or two IIRC MoD stated (open source) (and no need to be a software guy somewhere with knowledge of RCS, etc) that they would fund at least two Indian sources - just as is done in the US - since ToT has not met expectations.

[NRao]

Neshant,

June 8, 2010 :: New Policy by Ministry of Defence to boost Indian Arms Industry

Tajja khabar:

The new Defence Production Policy is rooted in the MoD's realisation that its longstanding acquisition model of building weaponry in India, through Transfer of Technology (ToT), has failed to generate indigenisation. Real indigenisation, the MoD now believes, comes from designing weaponry, not just manufacturing foreign designs.

"Look at what has happened historically," says Singh. "The (Indian defence) industries which came up, with some exceptions, are manufacturing products that were designed abroad, not here. Our industry has been in the habit of taking transfer of technology and building on licence until the product dies a technological death. There is no expenditure on R&D and no technology absorption. And since the most important components come from abroad, the vendor can turn off the switch any time. If India wants to emerge as a world power, we have to start developing our own products. That is what our industry will have to learn in partnership with the MoD."

It remains unclear how large a foreign component will be allowed in defence systems developed under the new Defence Production Policy. While the current "Make" procedure allows 70 per cent foreign component, Business Standard learns from MoD sources that the current thinking is to bring this down to "less than 50 per cent", along with the provison that the Intellectual Property Rights of the foreign component must reside in India.

ToT, no matter how one twists the subject, is empty calories, does not add real value. It cannot.

[Karan M]

Some folks are so into ideological positions that even a simple discussion devolves into absolutes, "it cannot", "bogus", "spins this" etc!

Quoting the MOD's views on TOT - well, yeah - one would take them more seriously if they admitted the issue about TOT not being effective had more to do with the blinkers they put on their own horses (DPSUs), stifled any sort of independent control through the 70's and 80's, and only asked them to license manufacture. "Horse, look straight ahead, what are those blinkers for?"

Countries like Israel leveraged TOT with own R&D to become tech powerhouses. In India, the manufacturing setup was the prime recipent of TOT (DPSU & OFB) and most did not even have the R&D setup to leverage it till the 90's, but lets not look at that.

Anyways:

Manufacturing is the right word but it isn't so much manufacturing technology that is transferred as it is manufacturing process. Basically learning the manufacturing process is one step up from Screw Driver Turning 101. Nobody learns what the R&D effort was to come up with the manufacturing technology, just the process of how its used.

Its of very limited value.

Can you define this limited value please?

You note "manufacturing process"! Would you know the amount of effort that goes in to get a process right, even in assembly & the value chain of activities involved?

Think of the advanced programs India is currently undertaking (of which a key requirement is precision manufacturing, to the best tolerances possible) & then kindly look up the processes involved in the manufacture of aircraft like the Rafale & EF. Knowing what the best in the business already do, avoids reinventing the wheel and costly mistakes.

The infrastructure built up via TOT is also leveraged for multiple programs.

Companies even go so far as to pick up entire plants and tooling, even if a generation behind & transferring them across the world, just to get the basics right.

A key factor in TOT, FYI - is the training of personnel in manufacturing techniques and methods. It is painstaking, and very valuable and an activity and capability zealously guarded.

Subsystems are also mastered over time & reused, with enough variation that they are not accused of being ripoffs.

Countries have used all this to fill the missing links in several programs.

How does one define % in that context anyway? 60% of what ? Its 0% of the R&D effort that went into creation of that manufacturing technology that's for sure.

The percentage is defined by an exhaustive charter of activities listed out in DPP 2008

Really all India is doing is subsidizing the R&D of a foreign country at great expense so lets not kid ourselves. The word ToT is just a bogus word designed to fool the buyer into thinking he's going to learn something when there's nothing much learnt.

The ideological position once again. Please stop banging on about "kidding ourselves" etc - fact remains TOT is a useful thing from the view point of local sustenance and support as well as being utilized for other programs.

It remains a very safeguarded capability & few firms (and countries) even like transferring the same. Both offsets and TOT are regarded as very crucial. One transfers the production capability & the other sustains it.

But never mind, please do carry on about how everything is useless & only you know the light!!

[NRao]

NRao gaaru -- I look at it as the failure of MOD to negotiate the terms of ToT rather than the problem with ToT itself. In other parts of the world especially China, they negotiated ToT very effectively and hence can produce 100% copies locally. That knowhow will go a long way to build their indigenous capabilities. Many would label China as those who copy/steal IP. But then even to steal you need to have a deep understanding of the technology which can only be acquired by deep ToTs.

There is huge difference between "Design" and "Manufacture". "ToT" constitutes "manufacture" - granted even there there are some huge benefits that India can gain (as I have posted WRT the F-18 it will be supply chain more than anything else).

WRT "Design" the components can come from anywhere else, but how and what of those components will depend on the knowledge (R&D) and that cannot be imported. True ToT and offsets have value, but they have value only for a limited component set, not is helping design something ground up, specially complicated things like engines.

China, I am fairly confident, have overcome some manufacturing issues (as did India - as the story goes WRT Vikrant when the UK declined spares during the '71 war?). I am not too sure, in fact I am inclined to believe, that China has not made too much progress on the design front - again R&D being a major block.

The other issue I would like to bring up is technology is specific to a user - specially in todays environment. India having a lot more funds will demand technologies that are specific to them - normal. So, again "ToT" does not help too much in the longer run. The quote I provided above pretty much says so.

[NRao]

we need to have ToT and RnD both running in parallel

I do not think anyone argues against that (or for that matter anything else that has been posted here).

Having said that India is still feeling the pinch of not enough progress - as the article above states. Clearly ToT has met some expectations, but not what was expected. Similarly offsets will meet some expectations, but again, not what is expected. Expectations are relative and IMHO - the point I have been trying to make is - that Indian expectations are changing too fast for a ToT to support. And, India can no longer rely on anyone without exception. Indian R&D will have to meet this (ever changing) expectations.

Let us see what happens. IMHO the one product that will reveal much is the FGFA. I can bet that what India expects a FGFA to be has changed in the past 1-2 years and will change in the next 1-2 years. ToT or offsets - as good as they are and may be - will still not meet those expectations. And, I feel, that the Russians will not part with what India really needs (not a kock on them - that is part of the game) even if India is willing to pay for them. Thus the NEED for Indian R&D. What is what I think that article addresses.

Again, no quarrel with any posts.

[arthuro]

Here are various sources to focus/put on perspective rafale maneuvrability

It is interesting to cross check sources and take some height for better understading and analysis. That is the point here :
It is just a focus on handling qualities nothing else.

Enemy Brothers
Air&Cosmos - June 2010


Since birth, both were scheduled to compete. The wrestling (commercial) which has now engaged the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale on the international scene has its roots in the early 80s, while Europe is seriously considering a joint development of a new multinational European fighter aircraft. France, United Kingdom and Germany are the main actors in a drama that will last many years. These last two countries, which have already collaborated in the Panavia consortium for the development of the Tornado are looking to replace a portion of their tactical fleet. For its part, France is trying, too, to have a fighter that can replace almost all of its combat aircraft. But from the beginning, the situation appears complex, whereas the English call for an air superiority aircraft class 11-12 tonnes, Paris argues for a device of only 9 tons. Moreover, the problems of industrial shares weigh down the prospects of cooperation including France, whose aeronautical companies ardently defend their plans to support the maintenance of their skills. In 1985, France announced it will develop alone its future combat aircraft. For their part, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain will start the Eurofighter program. While France wants to start building a really multirole aircraft, the nations in the Eurofighter consortium finance the development of a superiority aircraft, designed for air to air combat. To date yet, the 'Typhoon has only very limited air-ground capabilities compared with the Rafale.

More thrust for the Typhoon

On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors give it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater "extension" than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna "sees" futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for medium-range interception, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced.
In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter's radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter's one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
Once the "merge" is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it's above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is "clamped" around 30, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to "steer" more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds. [/color][/b]

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica .
Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons. The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons , they plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and at 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air-to-air, the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

Nine wins, one defeat

This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.

It seems that Peter Collins (flight global flight test article of the rafale) was not wrong about the quality of rafale FBW system :

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... afale.html

I was immediately aware after take-off of the sensitivity of the flight controls to any demand I made. The aircraft felt alive in my hands. I have never flown any aircraft that responded so instantly and so powerfully to stick input. The Mirage 2000 had previously been my favourite FBW aircraft in terms of handling qualities, but the Rafale with its DFCS betters it in every aspect of handling by a significant margin.

Resetting the DFCS and with the warning system ensuring I had gone from ST1 to air-to-air mode, I dropped back to about 500m line astern on the Mirage for a short tail-chase. This just re-emphasised the power of the Rafale and the accuracy of its controls. The aircraft can be flown in a "bang-bang" manner between axes, rather than requiring "rolling pulls". The Rafale is an outstanding close-in dogfighter whenever it wants to be.

I could not fault the carefree handling characteristics or the throttle response of the Rafale in any regime, and the only limit I ever had to remember in the flight was the gear limit (230kt). The Rafale was an absolute pleasure to fly, while remaining almost unbelievably responsive.

The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.

In answer to my own evaluation objectives, it was obvious the Rafale has earned its omnirole definition, even though I barely scratched the surface of its sensor and weapon capabilities. The aircraft has an incredible level of performance befitting a fourth-generation type, and despite flying a highly complex and demanding evaluation sortie, I felt completely at home in the aircraft and retained full situational awareness. If it could keep me safe, it would also do the same for young first-tourist pilots coping with tactical operations.
The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.

From PPRune :
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/ ... oon-2.html

Obi, I've done some research and my impeccable journalistic sources report that Pete Collins can, at present, only compare the Rafale FBW Digital FCS, that he evaluated airborne during his FLIGHT assessment at Istres in 2009, with the Typhoon FBW Digital FCS, reproduced in the RAF Typhoon Simulator, that he evaluated at RAF Coningsby in 2008.

However, on the basis of what he saw and what he evaluated, Pete Collins's personal opinion would still be to strongly rate the Rafale Digital FCS as giving the better pilot 'fighter type' handling characteristics of the pair, irrespective of the fact that he believes that the Eurofighter advanced control laws are still highly adequate as a similar, very advanced and very agile fighter. According to PC, the Rafale remains the best handling aircraft (by a long way) of the 34 fighter/fighter trainer types he has flown to date.

I know that aircraft handling chararcteristics can be a very personal pilot 'subject' but perhaps a clue as to how good the Rafale is to manoeuvre is that the French Air Force Rafale won the individual 'Best Display' this year at RIAT?

Bruno Revellin Falcoz an historical engineer at Dassault Aviation was not wrong either :

As we were working with the other Europeans, we started to diverge significantly on the design” explains Bruno Revellin-Falcoz [Director of Dassault’s Technical Department]. “Ultimately, we made some radically different choices. They wanted fuselage-mounted canards while we preferred to locate the canards almost above the wing-root. The key advantage of this configuration was that it would channel the air flow over the wing apex, which is where lift-generating vortices are formed. The Eurofighter Typhoon uses its canards as simple control surfaces. Although this creates a significant lever effect, it loses the positive impact on lift and therefore aerodynamic efficiency. That’s why we are certain that the Rafale can handle much better than the Typhoon at high angles of attack, such as during the crucial phases of dogfighting and low-speed flight. While they were groping around in the dark, we benefited from the know-how accumulated through the Mirage III Milan, Mirage III NG and Mirage 4000 programmes.

Rafale vs Superhornet : same conclusion :

French Rafale on the Teddy" ~ The special report of Rafale M F2's performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.

1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.


2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn't show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn't show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.


3. A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:

"A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."

"The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design".

When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale --> "No, I love my Super Bug way too much...."


4. A French pilot's (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:

"A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting."

"Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good."

"Rafale is definitely the more nimble one."

"However, F/A-18E has already equipped the JHMCS + AIM-9X, a combination of decisive edge in close-range encounters ~ Although the tactics to counter it have existed now."

[Kartik]

Arthuro, there have never been any doubts about the Rafale's excellent airframe design and agility nor over its multi-role capability. But the question mark that is most prominent is the cost of the "package" and the relative lack of interest that Dassault has shown in this contest. Dassault has chosen to stay quiet on this campaign whereas it is very vocal on the Brazilian and UAE campaigns, an indication possibly of them having given up in private and hence investing resources on the more likelier wins.

One question though- what do you make of the reports in the Brazilian press that the Rafale did not end up winning the FAB's evaluation scores ? They ranked the Gripen the first as per some press reports and the Rafale came last in that ranking..many people would argue that the very same thing that EADS and Dassault complains about in India (that the MRCA will be mostly politically judged) is true in Brazil as well where many quarters including FAB (so they say) support the Gripen NG but Lula and Jobim are backing the French-Brazilian strategic ties and hence the Rafale..

[arthuro]

About communication : Dassault doesn't communicate (almost) compared to SAAB or EADS for instance. Even in UAE and Brazil. What you hear about the rafale is what is reported in the press by local media. You have very very rarely press releases from dassault unlike SAAB. In brazil, all articles are comments about Jobim decisions but no advertisement from dassault when you think about it.

Fighter jet is no mass producing goods and french strategy is to focus on the decision makers. As a consequence most of the action is behind the curtains. As an outsider, I think SAAB has chosen the right communication strategy and it gave the gripen a very positive momentum...At least for the general opinion who can only rely on press releases.

As for the brazilian evaluation, the only insight about the technical evaluation from Istoe newspaper in brazil (with details of the evaluation) ranked the rafale first for the technology and performance while it was last in terms of costs. Other comments are inaccurate and you can trace SAAB behind these declarations. (People who made a flight on the gripen a few weeks before etc). Lobby are powerful and it is easy to spin a complex conclusion or omitting some elements.

The swiss evaluation clearly put the rafale ahead so that is also good benchmark.

Here is the article from Istoe about the technical eval :

A pitty that the translation is poor and that the journalist made a mistake about the manufacturer of the radar but for the rest you have a good insight. That's the only report that went into the details. Others are vague affirmations that are made by people who belongs to a lobby :
This article gives good an bad points to each aircrafts.

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. "You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, "said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes. Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.

Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. "We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed," he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

"To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, "said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under "radar signature", which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more "invisible" among competitors.

[Kronop]

Regarding the Brazilian evaluation:

If I remember correctly the Brazilian airforce wanted the Gripen C/D also in the two previous attempts to decide on procurement of new fighters.. In one case the minister of defence (who was pro Gripen) had to leave his position under unclear cricumstances and the other time there was an election with a subsequent change of President that ultimately halted the process...

[arthuro]

during FX-1 the mirage 2000-5 mk2 was the favorite. Dassault was a shareolder of Embraer and at the time the mirage had to be manufactured in brazil.

[Karan M]

Mrinal -- I understand and respect your views, but lets chill off a bit.

Yeah sure, when one stops being treated to gems such as "bogus" and "lets stop kidding ourselves".

[Karan M]

we need to have ToT and RnD both running in parallel

I do not think anyone argues against that (or for that matter anything else that has been posted here).

Having said that India is still feeling the pinch of not enough progress - as the article above states. Clearly ToT has met some expectations, but not what was expected. Similarly offsets will meet some expectations, but again, not what is expected. Expectations are relative and IMHO - the point I have been trying to make is - that Indian expectations are changing too fast for a ToT to support. And, India can no longer rely on anyone without exception. Indian R&D will have to meet this (ever changing) expectations.

Let us see what happens. IMHO the one product that will reveal much is the FGFA. I can bet that what India expects a FGFA to be has changed in the past 1-2 years and will change in the next 1-2 years. ToT or offsets - as good as they are and may be - will still not meet those expectations. And, I feel, that the Russians will not part with what India really needs (not a kock on them - that is part of the game) even if India is willing to pay for them. Thus the NEED for Indian R&D. What is what I think that article addresses.

Again, no quarrel with any posts.

NRao ji,

The issue is that the FGFA is a key AF requirement led program - as in it comes from with "we need a 5G aircraft". So the issues of offsets and other stuff wont really matter. Files will move, things will be done, russian requirements for extra $$ will be met.

The problem is that Indian politicians are big on talk & there are wannabe politicians not in politics - making clean reforms across the board are never possible, so grand gestures are announced, with a wave of the hand. "Now things are different". Yet, stuff like the T-90 acquisition and continued mess, occur.

This TOT not enough stuff is one of them. The replacement, is stated to be multiple programs from multiple vendors, who will now magically become R&D powerhouses and our problems are solved.

A grand sleight of the hand. The approach is certainly not new. It was applied to the dual sourcing of launchers and other equipment for several programs.

The key thing is to actually deliver on promises that the pvt sector will be treated akin to the public in key programs and make the whole process transparent with the services committing themselves to the programs. Otherwise only a handful of cash rich firms will monopolize the procurement, private ones and public. All the spat between public and private in the press has so far been akin to the elite squabbling over who gets the indian taxpayers purse

In the same manner, self proclaimed experts who loudly root for one side or the other thanks to commercial considerations should be told their jig is up & asked to vacate the podium.

In contrast, everything muddles along happily with no clear direction.

The performing PSU's have to wait eons before funding clearances are granted (which merits the question - why perform?), there is no overarching council to lead national programs (bureaucracy strikes there as well), no well staffed offsets agency to monitor and supervise companies angling for the offsets pie (scope of corruption, impropriety)...

You see if all these issues are addressed, then there would be no need for grand, symbolic gestures. Unfortunately, grand gestures are what pass for action in several cases.

The FGFA will go well since the Tejas program is there to draw strength from & HAL is doing a fair lot of spadework in aerospace in recent days. The problem is for every grand FGFA there are many, many other procurement programs which fall through the cracks and in the morass of corruption, procurement inefficiency and ad hocism. Take the cost escalations in Gorshkov and Scorpene for instance.

[ranjithnath]

its my first post in BR though ive been followin it for te past 4 yrs...
seems like tge brazilian defence ministry have chosen rafale
http://www.administradores.com.br/infor ... nte/45865/
from the above news

In December last year, the Air Force delivered a report that put the F-18 as the winner rather than the Gripen, as speculated.

The Gripen NG has a better assessment on the transfer of technology, but lost many points on other items and was considered a high risk project. In practice, the Swede plane had only good evaluation at the beginning of the evaluation process.

The Rafale, on its side, was only bad on price. The Gripen flight hours is estimated between $ 7 and $ 8000. Saab has promised that it would be at $ 3000.

If the decision is confirmed, Saab is in trouble because the Gripen NG is the only enterprise project along with the modernization of the C and D versions of the same plane. Even Sweden has not purchased the plane and will only do it if there is a deal with Brazil. Over 100 units of the Rafale are already delivered and another 180 are ordered . The aircraft is well evaluated in the UAE and Switzerland. The Boeing F-18 Super Hornet is riding high in India.

how will this influence te MRCA tender.?ive seen many arguements of gripen being te cheapest on flight hours around 3k but this is some contradictory news comin from FX1 selection.

[arthuro]

You should quote the entire article otherwise it could be misleading :

Defense selects the Rafale and the final decision will be for the president
Administratores.com.br, June 23


After much speculation, the Ministry of Defence decided to pick the Rafale fighter, made in France, to join the Brazilian Air Defense.

The decision was based only on technical issues.

President Luiz Inacio Lula Da Silva should convene the National Defense Council to discuss the matter. An explanatory memorandum of about 40 pages will be signed by Defence Minister Nelson Jobim, and the commanders of the Air Force, Brigadier Juniti Saito, and Navy, Admiral Moura Neto, confirms the choice. The document is divided between the positives and negatives of each of the three finalists aircraft - the Rafale (Dassault), the Gripen NG (Saab) and the F-18 (Boeing).

Each paragraph refers to documents prepared by the Air Force and the Navy. The Navy was consulted aiming at the aircraft carriers of 50 tons [50000?] to be built in the future.

It was also ensured the participation of Embraer in all stages of the project. In addition, the company is negotiating with France the development and sale of KC-390 military cargo.

In December last year, the Air Force delivered a report that put the F-18 as the winner rather than the Gripen, as speculated. Nelson Jobim ordered FAB to remake the document to adjust it to the National Defense Strategy (END). The FAB were using the same criteria as for FX1, which was canceled at the beginning of Lula's first term in 2003. At that time, the cost of maintenance, the unit price of the plane and the commercial offset package were the items which had higher scores. This time, technology transfer worth 40%. At the end of Fernando Henrique, it was 9%.

The Gripen NG has a better assessment on the transfer of technology, but lost many points on other items and was considered a high risk project. In practice, the Swede plane had only good evaluation at the beginning of the evaluation process.

The Rafale, on its side, was only bad on price. The Gripen flight hours is estimated between $ 7 and $ 8000. Saab has promised that he would be at $ 3000.

If the decision is confirmed, Saab is in trouble because the Gripen NG is the only enterprise project along with the modernization of the C and D versions of the same plane. Even Sweden has not purchased the plane and will only do it if there is a deal with Brazil. Over 100 units of the Rafale are already delivered and another 180 are ordered . The aircraft is well evaluated in the UAE and Switzerland. The Boeing F-18 Super Hornet is riding high in India.

Analysis (Marcelo Rech)

The fact that the Ministry of Defence has chosen the Rafale does not mean that the process is completed or will be confirmed by President Lula. There is an election in the near future and would not be a surprise if the decision will stay for the next administration.

The choice was technical.

The government believes the strategic alliance with France can compensate the fact that the Rafale is the most expensive among the three finalists. Embraer also gained a great deal. Gripen elected , it would just participate in the project. With the Rafale, it [Embraer] will be leading the process. The company also involves the development and commercialization of the KC-390 freighter in the business.

The United States could not, by law, closing a deal to buy the Super Tucano in return for selling the F-18, as speculated recently.
Jobim called for changes because he doesn't accept a off-the-shell purchase, as I said several times in public hearings held in Congress. He wants the industrialization of Defense and the field of technology in Brazil. And he believes it will be possible with the election of Rafale.

Given that ToT was the most important requirement and that gripen was the first on this critera it should be noticed that to win this evaluation the rafale must have brought very solid technical arguments on top of the political aspect. Rafale is also winning in the technical evaluation in swizerland against the gripen and the Typhoon according to local media.

from istoe brazilian newspaper (full article a few posts above) :

"The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes. Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price."

" The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under "radar signature", which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more "invisible" among competitors."

[ranjithnath]

my bad.i thot postin an article in full was a big no no.
these evaluations in brazil and swiss seems to be opposite of what hapnd to rafale in india.AFAIK rafale dint pass te high altitude trials in leh where gripen passed with flying colours.i kno u cant estimate a fighters performance just by high altitude trials , but why is a fighter which has impressed te brazilians and swiss is poised to have the least chance to win MRCA tender (not regarding the cost)

[arthuro]

1) There is no sources which tell that rafale failed or succeded at Leh trials.

2) As already explained in the specialized press, a minor change in the fuel system would allow all MRCA competitors to achieve these trials without any difficulties. So that is hardly impressive. Taken this into account all this buzz about Leh trial is meaningless.

3) There is nothing tangible from Indian airforce opinion about the rafale and nothing about other aircrafts either. (from the evaluation comitte). You are taking SAAB, EADS or other manufacturers press releases or PR for granted. But if you take a bird's eye view you realize that there isn't anything serious to coroborate the fact that rafale has the least chances in India. I am not saying it is a favorite , just that appart from a general feeling (due the fact that dassault almost doesn't communicate) there is nothing tangible to dismiss the rafale. Given its performance in Brazil and swizerland during the technical evaluation and the closing UAE deal that could give a tremendous momentum for the rafale.
The rafale could well win three export campains in the coming monthes (UAE, switzerland, brazil).

[Brando]

my bad.i thot postin an article in full was a big no no.
these evaluations in brazil and swiss seems to be opposite of what hapnd to rafale in india.AFAIK rafale dint pass te high altitude trials in leh where gripen passed with flying colours.i kno u cant estimate a fighters performance just by high altitude trials , but why is a fighter which has impressed te brazilians and swiss is poised to have the least chance to win MRCA tender (not regarding the cost)

You have to take the Brazilian "reports" with a grain of salt and look at the big picture. The French are building the Brazilans a nuclear submarine. That is a "big deal" for a country like Brazil that has no nuke program or the engineering know how to build a miniature nuclear reactor. While the Americans exerted brute pressure on the Brazilians to take the F18, the French have lured them with a carrot.

[sawant]

Isn't it better for us not to buy an aircraft that middle eastern countries buy like the Rafaele etc.. who knows if they loan it to TSP...

[Danell]

my bad.i thot postin an article in full was a big no no.
these evaluations in brazil and swiss seems to be opposite of what hapnd to rafale in india.AFAIK rafale dint pass te high altitude trials in leh where gripen passed with flying colours.i kno u cant estimate a fighters performance just by high altitude trials , but why is a fighter which has impressed te brazilians and swiss is poised to have the least chance to win MRCA tender (not regarding the cost)

You have to take the Brazilian "reports" with a grain of salt and look at the big picture. The French are building the Brazilans a nuclear submarine. That is a "big deal" for a country like Brazil that has no nuke program or the engineering know how to build a miniature nuclear reactor. While the Americans exerted brute pressure on the Brazilians to take the F18, the French have lured them with a carrot.

Absolutely untrue , France is not allowed to transfer nuclear technology to Brazil , the deal is about diesel-electric submarines and assistance in developing and fielding the non-nuclear parts of one nuclear fast attack submarine. The nuclear reactor, RENAP 11, is entirely built by Brazil.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Bra ... SSN-05217/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... il/sna.htm

[arthuro]

Rafale in india :

French air force to bring Rafale jets to India
Zenews.com ; June 24


New Delhi: The French Air Force is planning to bring its state-of-the-art Rafale fighter jets to India for a bilateral air exercise next year.

French Air Force officers had discussed the idea with the Indian Air Force team, which is currently in France for a tri-lateral air exercise in which the Singapore air force too is a part.
"At present, the talks for the next Indo-French exercise are also on and the French officials have expressed their desire to bring the Rafale aircraft for the next joint air exercise likely to be held in 2011-12 in India," an IAF officer, who is part of the Indian continent for Garuda-2010 exercise in Istres air base in France, said today.
The current exercise also entered its final phase with over 60 missions having been successfully flown in the last one week. The present Garuda exercise will conclude tomorrow.
During the exercise, IAF's six potent Su-30MKI fighter aircraft along with the French fighter jets Mirage-2000-5 and Rafale engaged in various air defence manoeuvres alongside the Singaporean Air Force's F-16 planes.
Among the manoeuvres practised were implementation of 'no fly zones' and large force engagements during day and night. The Su-30s also took part in a high value air-borne asset protection as well as protection busting missions.
The IL-78 refuellers of the IAF and the KC-135 refuellers of the French Air Force also participated in various missions carrying out refuelling of fighters of other air forces.
Refuelling denials were practised, making these missions more difficult, a press release issued by IAF here said.
[...]

[NRao]

Isn't it better for us not to buy an aircraft that middle eastern countries buy like the Rafaele etc.. who knows if they loan it to TSP...

Perhaps we should return the MKI and ask for a refund (hopefully our MoD have a clause in the agreement for that)? The Chinese have had access to USSR and now Russian technologies for eons!!!

IAF should buy what is best for the IAF.

[Carl_T]

Shouldn't buy the F-16 or the Eurofighter then either.

[Craig Alpert]

^^^ HALLELUJAH the SHORNET then!!!!

Boeing Eyes F/A-18E/F Long-Term Production

Boeing projects the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet production line will remain open past 2020, even though a planned third U.S. Navy multi-year production program would conclude before then.

Still uncertain is what the production rate will be during the next multi-year buy; current plans call for a purchase of 124 F/A-18E/Fs over four years, but the number of aircraft and the timeline could still change, says Mike Gibbons, the company’s program manager. He expects the multi-year buy would yield $500 million in savings over annual lot buys.

In parallel, Boeing is maturing technology for future upgrades for the U.S. Navy or foreign buyers. In some cases the export market is more interested in enhancements. For instance, the Indian air force is interested in the General Electric improved F414 engine, which promises a 20% thrust increase.

The Navy’s more immediate concerns are integrating additional weapon systems, improving the sensor integration capabilities, and adding electronic capabilities.

Boeing, for instance, is working on an improved crew station with a new, single piece 9 x 11-in.1 display (which is also technically fit to allow three-dimensional presentations). Boeing hopes to begin flight trials of the technology starting next year to help gauge customer interest and feedback on what features would be included.

If funded, the upgrade could become reality in around four years.

Boeing may introduce a digital display computer to drive the new technology and remove that software from the mission computer. That would make it easier for international buyers to customize the display.

The new display, which is to be paired with a newly designed, lower-profile HUD (Head Up Display) screen, is supposed to give pilots more flexibility to use sensors and fuse information.

The big screen would be augmented with a standby 3.5 x 3.5-in. display as a backup.

Other improvements include an infrared search-and-track sensor that would be mounted at the front of a modified external fuel tank, which could be available by 2016. The operational concept would have a small number of pods distributed to each squadron and rotated among aircraft depending on mission requirements.

Beyond that, the Navy is pursuing a new advanced IFF, datalink upgrades and better distributed targeting capabilities as an edge against growing threat capabilities in electronic attack. Also in the plan are better strike battle management capabilities, electronic warfare battle management and improvements in the self-defense suite, which also could include a long-delayed 360-deg. missile approach warning capability. Still to be decided is whether this would be achieved through the use of radar or infrared technology.

All this Technology would be available to the IAF Right in time when they induct the first MMRCA aircraft into their squadrons if NO MORE further delays are encountered!!! Begs to see, how much TOT one gets with S-hornet, as the US Navy is definitely going to use this beast will beyond 2035!!!! The cost being another and the kudagra the CISMOA & EUM clause....

[shukla]

BIG NEWS

France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters

A French company offered to sell 40 of its state-of-the-art aircraft Rafale fighter jets to India for a bi-lateral air exercise on Friday. An Indo-French joint exercise is to be held somewhere in India in 2011 – 12. The offer was made by the maker of the Rafale and Mirage fighters, Charles Edelstennie, who is also the scion of the Dassult family. Dessult is a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company.

The chairman and chief executive of Dassult said, “We know the Indian Air Force, with which we have a decade-long close association, is facing force depletion. So we are ready to supply 40 Rafales, the world’s first omni-role fighters to India, in a short span of time.”

The officers of French Air Force discussed the idea with the Indian Air Force team, which is now in France for a tri-lateral air exercise in which the Singapore air force is also involved. According to Edelastennie, Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at cost of Rs 40,000 crore. He said, “It is fulfilling the needs and tasks of the French air force and navy globally.

40 as "INTERIM SALE"?? for gods sake.. Just sell us 126 for 10 billions thanks!
(in between, I thought this was old news..? if this article has an iota of truth, looks like a refreshed offer)

[Guddu]

Rafale in india :

French air force to bring Rafale jets to India
Zenews.com ; June 24


New Delhi: The French Air Force is planning to bring its state-of-the-art Rafale fighter jets to India for a bilateral air exercise next year.

French Air Force officers had discussed the idea with the Indian Air Force team, which is currently in France for a tri-lateral air exercise in which the Singapore air force too is a part.
"At present, the talks for the next Indo-French exercise are also on and the French officials have expressed their desire to bring the Rafale aircraft for the next joint air exercise likely to be held in 2011-12 in India," an IAF officer, who is part of the Indian continent for Garuda-2010 exercise in Istres air base in France, said today.
The current exercise also entered its final phase with over 60 missions having been successfully flown in the last one week. The present Garuda exercise will conclude tomorrow.
During the exercise, IAF's six potent Su-30MKI fighter aircraft along with the French fighter jets Mirage-2000-5 and Rafale engaged in various air defence manoeuvres alongside the Singaporean Air Force's F-16 planes.
Among the manoeuvres practised were implementation of 'no fly zones' and large force engagements during day and night. The Su-30s also took part in a high value air-borne asset protection as well as protection busting missions.
The IL-78 refuellers of the IAF and the KC-135 refuellers of the French Air Force also participated in various missions carrying out refuelling of fighters of other air forces.
Refuelling denials were practised, making these missions more difficult, a press release issued by IAF here said.
[...]

The air exercise in France pitched the block52's, mki's and the rafale together. Obviously one purpose was to test how the Rafale and the mki's fare against the block 52's, the paki bird. That would suggest that Rafale is still a strong contender. Do we know if there have been similar exercises where the block 52's participated along with the f18, or tiffy and mki's.