Su-30: News and Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2010 14:30

even at 84 mil isnt it in ballpark of the 2 engined MRCA contenders (except the on paper cost of mig35) ?

since nothing super duper is on the table (like posting the raytheon an/apg79 radar team here to teach us how to do it), I would have thought putting that $10b as $5b into more MKI (perhaps single seater 35BM) and $5b in more Tejas , SAMs and dhruv helicopters would be more cost effective route.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 26 Jun 2010 15:48

New sqn = New airframes and new serials

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 26 Jun 2010 15:48

If we're going by dollars, I found a conversion chart here: http://oregonstate.edu/cla/polisci/down ... on-factors

Judging by the chart, $1.000 1996 USD is estimated to equal to $1.384 2010 USD, or an inflation of 38.4%

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jun 2010 16:05

rahuls wrote:Again quoting from the same TOI article which Asit posted above,
HAL has been steadily stepping up its Sukhoi-30 MKI delivery schedules. While last year it delivered 23 of these fighters, this year it is expected to produce 28. HAL has already supplied 74 of these fighters.
So, HAL has orders of 140+40+42 = 222, of which 74 are delivered.
I don't know what is the max production rate HAL is targeting, but if we take 28 to be the max, then it should take another 5 years 3 months to complete the rest of the order (148).

Rahuls remember that the first 50 SU-30 were built in Russia and additional order of 40 also in Russia.

28 per year is amazing No.

SO this means the IAF has about 124 SU-30 MKI's in its inventory, thats pretty good.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jun 2010 16:19

Kapil wrote:New sqn = New airframes and new serials

in ex garuda there are aircrafts from the 300+ series and the 60+ one.

mody · Post by **mody** » 26 Jun 2010 18:36

GD the whole MMRCA thing stopped making sense right from the time M2K-5/9 was not on the table and instead of the actual mirage fighers we started chasing proverbial mirages of either unproven aircrafts that need to be developed and customized as per our needs (MIG35, Gripen- NG, EF2000 with TVC and full multirole with AESA), or aircrafts that in their last development avatars and which shall start being fased out by their country of manufacture by the time we start using them (F-16s and F-18s).

Putting more money in SU-30 MKI or Su-35BM-MKI and LCA, is anyday the more sane thing to do. Both aircrafts already customized as per our needs and both having enough development potential for the future. Alas, the jingos on BR do not have a say in such things, nore do we have any further insight about the reasons behind such apparently stupid decisions.

Anyways back to the topic. Is there anyway to incorporate carbon composites in the airframe of the Su-30?
For the additional order or for future development would it possible to incorporate composites developed for the LCA program into the Su-30, to reduce the weight and thereby increase the thrust to weight ratio? May also help in reducing the radar signature somewhat.
I guess the airframe would ned to tested all over again and qualified for this purpose, but would the benefits of using composites for majority of the airframe (almost everything other then the fuselage), make the exercise worth it or not?

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 26 Jun 2010 19:25

what are the chances the price may have been inflated... and Sukhoi might actually use the extra $$ for Pak-Fa etc.. or may be in developing some other tech that we may get a chance to lay our hands on later ...

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 26 Jun 2010 21:53

A titbit I noticed about the price using a conversion rate of 1 USD = 45 Re

Cost per new SU-30 MKI = 15000 cr/42 = $79.36 Million

Cost per new MMRCA (taking the often quoted figure of $10 Billion project) = $10 Billion/126 = $79.36 Million

All I can say is that Russia has figured out the depth of our pockets.

Agreed with Singha ji - I never understood the MMRCA rationale. That money could be put to far better use elsewhere. It seems to me that we are going through it now more for H&D sake (we will look foolish to back out of it now) & political reasons (though how by being a "buyer" of strategic military systems, we think we have leverage with the seller is beyond me)

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 26 Jun 2010 23:10

So this means the IAF has about 124 SU-30 MKI's in its inventory, thats pretty good.

Can some knowledgeable soul enlighten me on the sqdn flying SU 30 ?

I can think of Sqd 20 Lightenings, Sqd 24 Hunting Hawks, Sqd 30 Charging Rhinos, Sqd 8 Eight Pursoots. Which other Sqd have SU 30 ?

K

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Jun 2010 23:27

Kersi D wrote:
So this means the IAF has about 124 SU-30 MKI's in its inventory, thats pretty good.
Can some knowledgeable soul enlighten me on the sqdn flying SU 30 ?

I can think of Sqd 20 Lightenings, Sqd 24 Hunting Hawks, Sqd 30 Charging Rhinos, Sqd 8 Eight Pursoots. Which other Sqd have SU 30 ?

K

Sqd 31 Lions & Sqd 2 Winged Arrows
From Ebay

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 27 Jun 2010 03:50

Rupesh wrote:thats Approx $84 Mil each, seems too costly

Prem Kumar wrote:A titbit I noticed about the price using a conversion rate of 1 USD = 45 Re
Cost per new SU-30 MKI = 15000 cr/42 = $79.36 Million
Cost per new MMRCA (taking the often quoted figure of $10 Billion project) = $10 Billion/126 = $79.36 Million
All I can say is that Russia has figured out the depth of our pockets.

Just a year back, there was an excellent article on SU 30 MKI published in Vayu-sena. It says the following about the cost :

End Result : IAF will eventually acquire a total of 230 Su-30MKI. Out of these 90 will be made in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association (IAPO) while the rest will be produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Production might be increased if necessary. HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million .

Cost of sukhois cannot escalate by more than 100% in a span of one year only. Either the figure calculated by both of you also comprises of the cost of spares, weapons, upgrades etc, or there is something more in it than what meets our eyes.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Jun 2010 03:56

$22.5 million sounds RIDICULOUSLY low, even a JF-17 costs like $20 million dollars. Heck, a F-16A/B cost that much...in the '80s!

OTOH, the 28 planes per year is pretty amazing, kudos to HAL for reaching such a high production rate.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Jun 2010 15:19

Singha wrote:being new build, I am sure the centerline pylon will come pre made for brahmos.

^^^ Just to prove and add on to your point..you hit the nail.. These newbies will definitely be upgraded versions...

The order is expected to be for the 'Super' variant of the Su-30MKI, which would be capable of carrying the BrahMos cruise missile. The Super variants are also expected to carry the under-development, nuclear-capable, Nirbhay cruise missile with a range of 1,000 km.

The 'Super' variants are expected to field new radars, onboard computers, electronic warfare systems as well as the supersonic BrahMos and the high sub-sonic, strategic Nirbhay missile.

The first two prototypes of the 'Super-30' upgrade are expected to be delivered to the Indian Air Force in 2012, after which the same upgrades will be performed on the last batch consisting of 40 production aircraft.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... eView.html

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Jun 2010 16:16

Which is the radar that is likely to be fielded in the new Sukhoi variants ?

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 27 Jun 2010 16:50

kit wrote:Which is the radar that is likely to be fielded in the new Sukhoi variants ?

might use the N010 Zhuk Airborne Radar.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Jun 2010 16:52

On Radar- Any chance IRBIS will be on these Super 30 series.

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Jun 2010 18:10

By the time HAL begins manufacture of the 42 aircraft sometime in 2014, each of them would cost in the range of Rs 350 crore, according to present day projections.
The present order for 42 fighters was originally supposed to be 40, but two more were added to the order book to make up for the two crashed fighters. A senior official said that HAL is expected to complete all the SU-30 MKI orders by 2016-17 period.

IMHO This news article of TOI is hatchet job on Su-30MKI to make the price of potential MRCA look less. If IIRC correctly the inital 140 Su will be manufactured by 2014-15. Next 40 have to be 2015-17 and this last batch should be around 2017-19. The news item indirectly says that is is "projected price" Hence the price of Rs. 350 crores is projected one of anything from 2014 to 2020 depending on whim of Journalist or author. Due to CAG and all that type of stuff, the price of Su-30MKI will not be much different from last batch which was around US$ 45-50 million and the present batch will be around the same. After a decade or so, due to contractual inflation adjustment clauses the prices "might" increase to US$ 70-80 or so. Also around 1/3rd of the contract is general equipment. So my guess is that the present price of fly away Su-30MKI is still around US$ 30-35 million only.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 Jun 2010 18:24

as per the 2008 CAG Report.

The extra order of 40 aircraft (that took total HAL orders to 170) placed in 2007 totalled 9036 Crores. Thats 225 Cr per ac so 50mill dollahs per aircraft?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 28 Jun 2010 04:19

Cross Pointing in the correct Thread!

WHY is it that SU-30 MKI's Engine look like they are smoking???

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 28 Jun 2010 05:27

Every extra squadron of MKI absorbs 2 of retiring Mig-21's. Adding 50 over next 4 years and the 2 LCA squadrons should help retire about 6-7 squadrons of mig-21's. HAL is anyways churning out one new sqaudron of MKI a year anyways. So we really don't need the MRCA crap at all. All money saved should be put in R&D for new A2G weapons. That will be the biggest savings of all. New laser guided kits of multiple ranges and GPS guided munitions. Its the most urgent need of the hour. We have become to Air-to-Air centeric airforce. We are way beyond anyone in the region in that aspect with addition of MKI, AWACS and aerostats.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jun 2010 07:30

Cybaru wrote:Every extra squadron of MKI absorbs 2 of retiring Mig-21's. Adding 50 over next 4 years and the 2 LCA squadrons should help retire about 6-7 squadrons of mig-21's.

Um, how does it absorb 2 exactly? While an MKI may bring a lot more in terms of payload and capability, there is no substitute for numbers. For every Mig-21 retired there has to be one new aircraft coming in sooner or later. We can't possibly replace all of them with MKIs, and that's where the LCA comes in. At least that's how I've always understood it. The MRCA was never meant to be a Mig-21 replacement anyway. We are 7-8 squadrons short of the sanctioned strength right now and 12 short of the 44 that the IAF wants. The MRCA is supposed to fill that gap along with the MKI. Basically we still need to replace fighters that have already been retired, forget about replacing the ones we are going to retire.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 28 Jun 2010 10:24

Going a bit OT and sorry if this has been discussed earlier : From procurement to countless repairs and upgrades,how much has it cost us per Mig21-B ? I wonder if it would have made a better fiscal sense to have replaced it back in the mid-90s instead of steady upgrades and repairs,and not to mention the human attrition it has caused.The first SU-30 MKI' are nearing their 10 years of operation,maybe it funds used to maintain Mig21 would have been better spent to upgrade MKI' instead. - Just my humble 0.02 paisa.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 04 Jul 2010 00:00

Can someone tell me about IRST (Infra Device) on the Su-30 ...is there on on the Indian one

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 04 Jul 2010 00:11

Yes Akshay. Its very much there.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 04 Jul 2010 00:16

Asit P wrote:Yes Akshay. Its very much there.

Would appreciate all the info and specs, Asit.Thanks

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 04 Jul 2010 00:20

Asit P wrote:
Yes Akshay. Its very much there.

Would appreciate all the info and specs, Asit.Thanks

Asit P wrote:Yes Akshay. Its very much there.

Would appreciate all the info and specs, Asit.Thanks

Interesting request.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 04 Jul 2010 02:41

Please go through this article:-
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

The OLS-27 (Izdeliye 36Sh) is a combined IRST/LR device for the Su-27, similar to the MiG-29's KOLS but more sophisticated, using a cooled, broader waveband, sensor. Tracking rate is over 25deg/sec. 50km range in pursuit engagement, 15km head-on. The laser rangefinder operates between 300-3000m for air targets, 300-5000m for ground targets.

Search limits for the OLS-27 are ±60deg azimuth, +60/-15° in elevation. Three different FOVs are used, 60° by 10°, 20° by 5°, and 3° by 3°. Detection range is up to 50km, whilst the laser ranger is effective from 300-3000m. Azimuth tracking is accurate to 5 secs, whilst range data is accurate to 10m. Targets are displayed on the same CRT display as the radar. Weighs 174kg.

The OLS-30 (36Sh-01), is an improved version of OLS-27 developed by UOMZ with a vibration-proof receiver, micro-cryogenic system, improved service life and new software. Perhaps also has TV channel. Range 90km in pursuit, 40km head-on. Possibly the same as Izdeliye-52Sh.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 04 Jul 2010 15:34

IAF to upgrade SU-30 fighter aircraft

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Jul 2010 08:52

No final contract yet on Brahmos integration on Indian Su-30MKI’s

Integration of the Russia-India BrahMos supersonic missile with the Sukhoi Su-30MKI multi-role fighter jet may start in the near future, Machine Building Research and Production Center leading designer Igor Kharlamov told Interfax-AVN on Friday, at the Machine Building Technologies 2010 forum in Zhukovsky.

“A contract on the BrahMos integration with the Su-30MKI is being drafted. It will be presented to Indian partners soon,” he said.

The draft contract enumerates prospective works and estimates their cost, as well as the deadline for testing BrahMos missiles within the Su-30MKI system.

“The Indian Air Force will assign two jets for the testing and develop the missile launcher for integrating the missile into the plane system. All types of land and flight tests will be done, and a report will be drafted on the system worthiness,” he said.

The works may take 30 months. The works will start as soon as the contract is signed and the funding begins.

akshay · Post by **akshay** » 06 Jul 2010 23:32

The current upgrade for MKI is the Brahmos capability ...why the uncertainty? The Hindu article clearly mentions that.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 07 Jul 2010 21:06

Does anyone really know the planned upgrade path for Su-30 MKI?

It needs to have a new airframe for sure the MKI has RCS of 15 m2 while the new Su-35 gas an RCS of
1m2!

AESA RADAR is on the wish list! If India gets an AESA RADAR of the same quality as AN/APG-79 then it would be the most poerful fighter based RADAR with an output of 35-50KW!

Also MAW systems like Guitar-350, a new targeting pod LITENING G4, and we are all set for the next gen warfare!

There is a major plan with what is called the smart skin for flankers which gives near 360 degrees situational awareness!

New engines that can give Flankers Supercruise capability!

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 07 Jul 2010 21:06

Some of the above is on wishlist, some already planned

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 08 Jul 2010 23:16

Russia, India To Finalize Fighter Upgrade
Aviation Week

Russia, India To Finalize Fighter Upgrade
July 8, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bengaluru

A high-level team from Rosoboronexport of Russia will visit India this month to finalize the technical aspects of the upgrade program for the Su-30 MKI fighter.

Avionics and Radar are two major systems likely to be improved. A technical team from the Defense Research and Development Organization, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and the Indian Air Force (IAF) will represent the Indian side.

A source tells AVIATION WEEK that upgrade discussions have been underway for the last two years. Russian bureaucratic procedures are said to be the main cause for the delay, while the Indian side is said to be putting pressure on the Russians to wind up the talks quickly.

“Nearly 100 Su-30 MKIs will come for [upgrade] during overhaul,” the official says. “Every 10 years various systems need to be upgraded to current standards. However, the latter aircraft that are still to join the IAF will not be included in this module. They will probably come for a second stage upgrade later.”

The IAF version of the BrahMos supersonic missile is expected to join the Su-30 MKI soon.

Meanwhile, another Russian team is set to visit India this month to finalize the purchase of 42 additional Su-30 MKIs for the IAF. These are beyond those already contracted by HAL from Russia under license production. The Sukhois are built under license at HAL’s five divisions — Nasik, Koraput, Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa — and are later assembled, integrated, test flown and delivered from the HAL Nasik Division. Fifty Sukhois initially came from Russia between 2002 and 2005.

“These additional platforms are expected to be delivered after the completion of 140 + 40 aircraft by 2015 under the compressed delivery schedule program,” the official said. “Five divisions of HAL will be participating in this raw material phase manufacturing of Additional Sukhois.”

HAL’s deliveries began in 2004-2005,
and So Far 74 Sukhois have been Rolled Out from the Nasik Division.

HAL Expects to Deliver 28 Aircraft this Year.

The Fighter is Currently Priced at Rs 240 Crore ($51.4 Million)
and It Will Climb to About Rs 330 crore When the Additional Orders Come In. WHY

The total value of those Orders might go beyond Rs 15,000 crore Considering the Spare, Engines, and Ground Handling Equipment.

naird · Post by **naird** » 09 Jul 2010 00:00

I wonder what can be the Su 30 radar upgrade ? Snow leopard i believe ruled out due to the engine issue !!

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 09 Jul 2010 00:53

naird wrote:I wonder what can be the Su 30 radar upgrade ? Snow leopard i believe ruled out due to the engine issue !!

I thought irbis-E (Snow Leopard) is already on the latest Indian flankers now rolling out! What engine isuue do u have in mind?

Well, long back I read about something called Smart Skin for Flankers! wonder if it is a part of the upgrade!

Also, a new airframe similar to Su-35BM should be very much in the offing!

Wish India also goes for guitar 350!

naird · Post by **naird** » 09 Jul 2010 01:58

Kanan wrote:
naird wrote:I wonder what can be the Su 30 radar upgrade ? Snow leopard i believe ruled out due to the engine issue !!
I thought irbis-E (Snow Leopard) is already on the latest Indian flankers now rolling out! What engine isuue do u have in mind?

Where do you get all this info from ? about Irbis being present in indian flankers..

Anyways -- The current MKI AL 31 engines cannot provide sufficient power to 'power up' Irbis. 117S has enough power to sustain irbis operations. This was stated by Mikhail Pogosyan in an interview.

Kanan wrote: Well, long back I read about something called Smart Skin for Flankers! wonder if it is a part of the upgrade!

Also, a new airframe similar to Su-35BM should be very much in the offing!

Wish India also goes for guitar 350!

Smart skin is a figment of imagination of 'Borchure' Gupta -- there is no such plan !

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Jul 2010 05:08

Sukhois set for Gwalior as IAF evolves new tactics

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Jul 2010 05:14

^^I have always wondered why TACDE used Mig-27s? They are responsible for developing IAF's aerial warfare tactics. Wouldn't Mig-21s or 29s have been more appropriate?

naird · Post by **naird** » 09 Jul 2010 06:08

nachiket wrote:^^I have always wondered why TACDE used Mig-27s? They are responsible for developing IAF's aerial warfare tactics. Wouldn't Mig-21s or 29s have been more appropriate?

Mig 21's were always present at TACDE -- I believe TACDE started with Su 7's and later on graduated on to Mig 21's during the later part of 70's. Mig 27 -- probably to hone ground attack skills however the purpose of TACDE suggests otherwise.

My biggest question is -- why No mig 29's ? is it due to their relatively low strength ? and also why is the Su 30 a part of TACDE so late in the game ? Its been a decade since IAF has been playing with Su 30 and now they are giving the planes to TACDE ?

Doest make sense if IAF is considering TACDE as a premiere institution !

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 09 Jul 2010 15:35

Soon, inflight refreshments for Sukhoi pilots

Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots will soon get to relish delicious snacks like halwa and sip fruit juice inside the cockpits of their combat aircraft during long distance sorties. IAF has asked the Defence Food Research Laboratory (DFRL) to develop light food products in squeezable tubes that the pilots can consume even as they are strapped in their Sukhoi 30 MKIs, Mirage 2000s and the Jaguars. Dr A S Bawa, director of the Mysorebased DFRL told Express that they have taken up new projects for the IAF and have been developing food products like halwa, pulav and fruit juices that can be consumed from squeezable tubes.

“We have in the past supplied a few food items to the IAF, but they had some issues as the pilots found them difficult to consume while flying at supersonic speeds. But now, during a recent interaction, they asked us to develop a few food items for their pilots,” he said.
Bawa added that DFRL is developing a few food items for the IAF which will be similar to ones consumed by astronauts on space missions.

“Though the food items are similar to the ones consumed by astronauts, here the challenge is greater. The pilots are strapped in the G-suits and hence cannot move their hands freely, hence we have to identify a place where the tubes can be kept. Besides, they travel at much higher speeds and we also have to keep the ‘G’ factor (gravitational factor) in mind,” said Bawa.

The IAF requirement for these food products for their pilots comes as the air force is hoping to transform into a strategic force with its combat aircraft like the Sukhoi 30 MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar involved more long distance sorties.