Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Jul 2010 18:09

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Jul 2010 20:26

F-16 Squadron leaves for Red Flag exercise

The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in ‘Red Flag’ war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 11 Jul 2010 03:06

South Africa, Brazil ready for A-Darter missile test

Avibras chief executive Sami Hassuani believes an initial 100-200 units could be sold to international users, with Pakistan viewed as a prime candidate. Mectron delivered its first MAA-1A Piranha-1 air-to-air missiles to the nation last month, and Islamabad has also signed a letter of intent to purchase B-version Piranha-2s.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 11 Jul 2010 11:42

It seems to me the major reason of purchasing this Phianha is Pakistan's effort to purchase their second hand or decommissioned Mirage-III Fighter jets which is commanly operated in South American nations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2010 12:15

their MirageIII fleet is old. perhaps the idea is purchase old jets for spare parts only as they did from Libya.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 11 Jul 2010 12:47

SSridhar wrote:F-16 Squadron leaves for Red Flag exercise
The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in ‘Red Flag’ war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.

Would this be the first time that PAF is participating in 'Red Flag' ?

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 11 Jul 2010 12:57

Yes, it is their very first time for PAF to participate in Red Flag exercise.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jul 2010 13:15

we will soon hear accounts of F22s falling out of the sky...shot by paf F16s!

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 11 Jul 2010 14:05

lol singha!!!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 Jul 2010 06:22

Its so bad for americans, that pakis arent taking JF17 THUNDER in this small exercise...

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 12 Jul 2010 07:04

US trains Pakistanis

The deep suspicion that underlies every American move here is a fact of life that American officers say they must work through as they try to reverse the effects of the many years when the United States had cut Pakistan off from military aid because of its nuclear weapons program.

The personnel training is just one piece of what is now a multipronged relationship. With combating Al Qaeda and the Taliban now the overriding priority, the United States provides Pakistan with a wide array of weapons, shares intelligence about the militants, and has given it more than $10 billion toward the cost of deploying nearly 150,000 troops in and around the border areas since 2001 — with the promise of much more to come.

On June 27, the United States delivered to Pakistan the first of three new F-16 jet fighters equipped with precision targeting instruments for day and night use. A half dozen United States Air Force pilots traveled here to train and qualify Pakistani aviators on night operations. Washington is stressing that these upgraded fighters will be used by Pakistan against the militants in the tribal areas, but they also augment the F-16 fleet that the United States has financed over the years as part of the country’s arsenal that is directed against India.

nits · Post by **nits** » 12 Jul 2010 10:35

SSridhar wrote:F-16 Squadron leaves for Red Flag exercise
The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in ‘Red Flag’ war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.

Whether India is also participating this time in curent version of Red Flag...? will be excited to see if we and PAF both particpate in same exercise...

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 12 Jul 2010 11:29

nits wrote: Whether India is also participating this time in curent version of Red Flag...? will be excited to see if we and PAF both particpate in same exercise...

Nope. Here's the list :

Red Air
65 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-16)
64 AGRS, Nellis AFB, Nev., (F-15)

Interdiction
92 FS, RSAF (F-15S)
9 MRS, PAF (F-16B)
425 FS, (Singapore, Luke AFB, Ariz.) (F-16CG)
VMFA-225, MCAS Miramar (F-18)

Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses
77 FS, Shaw AFB, S.C. (F-16CM)
VMAQ-3, MCAS Cherry Point, N.C. (EA-6B)
VAQ-132, Whidbey Island NAS, Wash. (EA-18B)

Command and Control
552 ACW, Tinker AFB, Okla. (E-3)
NATO (E-3)
Special Ops, Calif. ANG (MC-130)
Grand Prairie, Singapore (CH-47)

Aerial Refueling
22 ARW, McConnell AFB, Kan. (KC-135)

Participating Aircraft
16-30 Jul

F-15E, Hill AFB, Utah
E-3, Tinker AFB Okla
KC-135, Grand Forks Air Force Base, N.D.
MQ-1/MQ-9, Creech AFB, Nev.
MQ-1, California Air National Guard

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2010 14:41

american instructors training FC troopers
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/0 ... ING-4.html

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Jul 2010 19:05

Pak-Turkey must have joint defence projects: Turkish President

Turkish President Abdullah Gul on Wednesday stressed the need to initiate joint defence production projects between Pakistan and Turkey, according to a message received from Ankara. In a meeting with a Pakistani defence delegation, led by Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, who called on him, Gul said the existing strategic partnership between Pakistan and Turkey provides an opportunity for joint ventures. The Turkish PM showed keen interest in Pakistan's JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which he was informed, "is a multi-role combat aircraft equipped with state-of-art modern technology and manufactured according to present day defence requirements".

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Jul 2010 04:45

Falco UAV of Pakistan Air Force Crashes

A Falco Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) of the Pakistan Air Force has crashed on Tuesday when it was on routine flight at 11:45am. The wreckage of the Falco Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) was found in a garden by local villagers.

According police this incident has caused no loss of life or property. Pakistan Air Force have ordered in investigation of the crash after removing the UAV’s wreckage. The Falco UAV was included in Pakistani air force in 2009 for optronic and electronic surveillance applications.

Falco is a tactical UAV which is designed by Selex Galileo and is co-produced by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra. The co-production of Falco began in August 2009. Falco is principally employed by the Pakistan Air Force for optronic and electronic surveillance applications, and homeland security operations.Pakistan has purchased five systems consisting of 25 Falcos including spare flight units and ground control stations.

Falco UAV has one hard point on each wing and will carry a load capacity of up to 25kg. The Falco UAV can fly at an altitude of 6,500m and can carry a maximum payload of 70kg. It has the capacity to fly continuously for 9 to14 hours.

Pakistan air force have employed the Falco UAV during the Pakistan Army's 2009 offensive in SWAT for locating militant targets like ammunition dumps and hide-outs.

Falco tactical air vehicle can carry active electronically scanned array PicoSAR and an electro-optical/infrared sensor for surveillance. The high-resolution of the electronically scanned array PicoSAR make it very useful for counter-IED missions, detecting disturbances in ground surface.

PicoSAR weights only 10kg and it can generate SAR imagery in both strip and spot modes from a range of up to 20km (10.8nm), and collect ground moving target indication data.

Selex Galileo is also offering a larger version called Falco Evolution (Evo) with 14m wing span almost double that of standard Falco UAV. Falco Evo will have capacity to carry 120kg of payload and will be capable of an endurance of more than 18 hours. First flight is expected this year.

Falco can laser-designate targets for other platforms but cannot deliver munitions.Pakistan considers the Falco UAVs first step toward Pakistan's eventual goal of having UAVs capable of carrying missiles. Pakistan is working on its own Predator-like unmanned aerial vehicle to undertake the same mission.This UAV is sometimes referred by different sources as Burraq UAV.It will be outfitted with a NESCom-designed laser designator and laser-guided missiles.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 17 Jul 2010 21:52

Is it just me or the nose section is very similar to the Viper???
Sorry about the large image but i can't seem to downsize it...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2010 09:39

Don wrote:

The JF 17 seems to have undergone plenty of changes.

The LERX is now bigger than in the following picture
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... Top_lg.jpg

And the intakes are totally different from those in this picture
http://asiadefence.files.wordpress.com/ ... 7_taxi.jpg

Also see
Click for image

Is someone telling me that the JF 17 is fully tested for performance in ever single one of these configurations? I have a white marble building for sale in Agra.

In the following pic, groper's head is at cockpit level - indicator of size
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2 ... 3-2009.jpg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2010 10:19

Something that I've wondered all this while: did Bandar go through IOC and FOC stage(or whatever chinese and pakis call it)? I mean, have they gone through the whole nitty-gritty ala our Tejas? I haven't heard a peep on that account..which radar does it have? what modes have been opened up (on radar)? Has it acheived the opening up of the whole envelope? ANy gyaan?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Jul 2010 10:23

rohitvats wrote:Something that I've wondered all this while: did Bandar go through IOC and FOC stage(or whatever chinese and pakis call it)? I mean, have they gone through the whole nitty-gritty ala our Tejas? I haven't heard a peep on that account..which radar does it have? what modes have been opened up (on radar)? Has it acheived the opening up of the whole envelope? ANy gyaan?

Somedimes i bhonder ip chinis hab deir own bersion of IOC and FOC.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2010 10:28

rohitvats wrote:Something that I've wondered all this while: did Bandar go through IOC and FOC stage(or whatever chinese and pakis call it)? I mean, have they gone through the whole nitty-gritty ala our Tejas? I haven't heard a peep on that account..which radar does it have? what modes have been opened up (on radar)? Has it acheived the opening up of the whole envelope? ANy gyaan?

I am no expert but I labor under the impression that if you make major changes like the intakes or enlarge LERX you need to go through the rigmarole of proving the whole flight envelope.

The Chinese can hold everything secret and release no information and get praised for greatness. And some of that praise rubs off on Pakis as well who did nothing.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2010 10:32

^^^True. I don't remember reading anywhere about PAF Test Pilots being deputed to the programme to be part of the something like pur TFC. In case they'd done so, the Porkis would have painted the town green with the news..only thing I remember reading is PAF TP going to 'evaluate' the final version and finding it 'great' (as if they had choice). BTW - another news snippet says that PAF TP wanted the chinis to 'further' improve upon the flight envelope of J-10 and demonstrate all the modes before taking them in...

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 19 Jul 2010 11:16

rohitvats wrote:^^^True. I don't remember reading anywhere about PAF Test Pilots being deputed to the programme to be part of the something like pur TFC. In case they'd done so, the Porkis would have painted the town green with the news..only thing I remember reading is PAF TP going to 'evaluate' the final version and finding it 'great' (as if they had choice). BTW - another news snippet says that PAF TP wanted the chinis to 'further' improve upon the flight envelope of J-10 and demonstrate all the modes before taking them in...

I beg to differ, PAF pilots have been evaluating the aircraft's 4th prototype PF-04 since 2006, and yes they had painted the town green with the news

, the PAF also provided some inputs w.r.t Avionics in the avionics testing etc.

This is what i got from PAF official site :-

PAF Test Pilots Create History by Flying JF-17 ‘Thunder’ Aircraft
(09 April, 2004)
Pakistan Air Force test pilots, Squadron Leader Muhammad Ehsan ul Haq and Squadron Leader Rashid Habib flew two sorties of 30 minutes each in the skies of Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province, China. It signifies an important day in the history of aviation in Pakistan as on this day two PAF test pilots flew the newly manufactured single-seat JF-17 ‘Thunder’ prototype-1 aircraft for the first time. During flight, the pilots evaluated the flight performance of the aircraft in different phases of flight. After landing, both the pilots reported that they were extremely happy with the excellent performance of the aircraft in all phases of its flight.

With these flights, the Pakistani pilots have joined the chosen team of ‘Thunder’ test pilots, which already includes the Chinese test pilots. Therefore, from now on, PAF pilots will regularly participate in the test-flights of JF-17 aircraft alongside their Chinese counter parts to complete the ‘flight test and evaluation’ phase of JF-17 aircraft.

The Proto type JF-17 aircraft, after its maiden flight in September last year, is being subjected to exhaustive ground and air-tests. These tests are conducted on all the newly manufactured aeroplanes before they are certified for the regular serial production. The ‘flight testing’ of new aircraft is a highly complex process which involves days of planning by a team of pilots and engineers. Before flight, special sensors are installed on the aircraft, which do not only monitor the flight performance of the aircraft and the performance of its various sub-systems during flight, but they also transmit this data to a ground station. With the help of this data, the team of ‘flight test engineers and pilots’ sitting in the ground-test-station monitors the flight of the aircraft and carries out a thorough analysis with the help of highly advanced computers, before the next flight. It may be reported that two of the PAF’s test- engineers are already involved in the complete flight-testing phase of the aircraft.

Test flight of the JF-17 ‘THUNDER’ aircraft by PAF pilots in China also signifies the fraternity of Sino-Pak relations since it is for the first time in the history of Chinese aviation that two foreign pilots have flown a prototype aircraft in that country.

By the way, would the enlarge fuselarge aide in upgrading the JF-17 at later stages ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2010 12:30

So, PAF TP get to fly 30min sorties each and it becomes 'historic'? Guess, history (along with truth) is always a casualty whenever it comes to porkistan.....

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 19 Jul 2010 16:04

rohitvats wrote:So, PAF TP get to fly 30min sorties each and it becomes 'historic'? Guess, history (along with truth) is always a casualty whenever it comes to porkistan.....

Based upon the fact that this was a first time PAF pilots have evaluated the aircraft which have been conceptualized with their so own called ASRs, it is indeed historical.

It is somewhat similar when LCA Tejas took its first flight (a historic event indeed) , the only difference being that Indian test pilots took part right from the start whereas PAF pilots took part only from 4th prototype onwards.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Jul 2010 17:07

shiv wrote:
Don wrote:
The JF 17 seems to have undergone plenty of changes.

The LERX is now bigger than in the following picture
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... Top_lg.jpg

And the intakes are totally different from those in this picture
http://asiadefence.files.wordpress.com/ ... 7_taxi.jpg

Also see
Click for image

Is someone telling me that the JF 17 is fully tested for performance in ever single one of these configurations? I have a white marble building for sale in Agra.

In the following pic, groper's head is at cockpit level - indicator of size
http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2 ... 3-2009.jpg

It seems they have turned towards the original design (adding LERX) ,thats only possible if there were some issues related to aerodynamic performance ?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Jul 2010 17:36

IAR 99(romania)

K8

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2010 18:21

Avinandan wrote:Based upon the fact that this was a first time PAF pilots have evaluated the aircraft which have been conceptualized with their so own called ASRs, it is indeed historical.

It is somewhat similar when LCA Tejas took its first flight (a historic event indeed) , the only difference being that Indian test pilots took part right from the start whereas PAF pilots took part only from 4th prototype onwards.

There is no similarity here......Indian TP took the Tejas to air on it's 1st flight....In the air was not only a 4th Generation a/c...but the sum total of Mil-Tech complex and capability of an entire nation. That is why Tejas first flight is historic.

As for PAF TP flying the 4th TD of JF-17...don't you think it's a shame and commentary on where the TSP is in this co-development? That PAF Pilots get to fly the 4th TD of a/c which has been developed as per their ASR (or ASR modified to suit availability..they did not have choice, did they?) and that too only twice? That is more like seller-client relationship..."we've done this--come and have a look"

nishu · Post by **nishu** » 19 Jul 2010 18:43

every pic of junk fighter is different with the other , the pic with gilani is even more different . why is that they are continuously changing junk to duper junk . since chinee are not interested in the junk then who is modifying this junk plane and where are they testing its aerodynamics

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 19 Jul 2010 19:36

In the junk yard

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 19 Jul 2010 20:56

Not even the chinese have done anything historic
From the pictureS of IAR 95/99 posted above ,it seems that chinese(also pakis) got the entire IAR-X line of aircraft designs from romania, ..
even then they took 10+ years to integrate already existing engine and radar into what could be called as copied design,then its a historic achievement ??,.What about Lavi (J10) then?, thats not their developed project .
This is what chinese and pakis had been doing with migs and mirage3/5 since decades(assembling),. But since there was no competitor with a similar design in the market, they called it pindigenous development

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 20 Jul 2010 01:01

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?687957
Posting in full, as this might not be archived

China and Pakistan have reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth version of a light-weight fighter aircraft being jointly produced by them to match MiG-21 warplane , a work horse of the Indian Air Force.

JF-17 Thunder, also known as FC-1, being jointly built by Kamra-based Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and Chengdu Aerospace Company (CAC) today made its first appearance at an international air show having flown in here after making refueling stops in Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

The plane, which has been in development in one form or another since 1991, is a symbol of cooperation between China and Pakistan and the first assembled version brought out by the Kamra plant, delivered in November last year, according to 'Show News,' a special issue of defence journal Aviation Week for the Farnborough Air Show.

"The two (countries) have also reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth variant of the JF-17 Thunder," it said.

The journal said that Pakistan Air Force (PAK) is expected to acquire around 250 JF-17s, but this may be a split of 100 in the JF-17 configuration, being displayed at the air show here, and 150 of the stealth multi-role combat aircraft (MCRA) between 2015 and 2025.

A Russian-built Klimov RD-93 engine -- a specialised single-engine fighter variant of the Mig 29’s RS-33 powerplant, powers the plane. The first prototype of the warplane flew in 2003 and the first two Chinese-made versions were handed over to the PAF in March 2007.

Show organisers said that the two JF-17 fighter planes would not fly as part of the air show. "The aircraft has not completed its full release to service in Pakistan," the journal said, quoting a member of the flight control committee.
"Although that full release is only month away, the PAF is also today in what is for them new territory. Farnborough is their very first event of this kind ever," it said.

Not sure what the journalist had been smoking...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Jul 2010 02:02

Pakistan Air Force arrives at Nellis for first Red Flag

NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.-- Pakistan Air Force pilots pose for a group photo after landing here for Red Flag 10-4 July 16. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots and support personnel at Nellis Air Force Base for the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31. This is the Pakistan Air Force's first time participating in Red Flag. (U.S. Air Force Photo by Lawrence Crespo)

Members of the Pakistan Air Force arrived at Nellis Air Force Base July 16 to participate in Red Flag 10-4. The U.S. Air Force is hosting approximately 100 Pakistan Air Force pilots, maintainers and support personnel at the world's premier large force employment and integration exercise July 17-31.

This is the Pakistan Air Force's first time participating in Red Flag. Also participating will be fighter pilots and support personnel from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, U.S. Marine Corps, Royal Saudi Air Force, and the Republic of Singapore Air Force.

Masha'Allah someone contact a director/producer in Bollywood, tell them they have a new bunch of would be H(z)ERO's to pick for their upcoming film!!!!

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 20 Jul 2010 14:59

China-Pak in MoU to Develop stealth Variant on JF-17 Thunder

BY: PTI

The journal said that Pakistan Air Force (PAK) is expected to acquire around 250 JF-17s, but this may be a split of 100 in the JF-17 configuration, being displayed at the air show here, and 150 of the stealth multi-role combat aircraft (MCRA) between 2015 and 2025.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jul 2010 16:05

Does anyone have a break up of the Number of F-16's in the PAF after the latest addition 18- Block 52's. How many are Block -50 standard. What did the MLU for the other F-16 A/B's comprise of , type of RADAR etc. is it 32 orginal upgraded plus 12-14 other F-16 A/B for which a MLU was performed plus 18.

So the PAF has 62 F-16's. Thats pretty formidable while we are twiddling our thumbs with the MRCA. That effectively means in the last decade PAF has added 30 F-16 , upgraded the the remaining 32 to BVR, purchased 50 F-7 PG's, is in the process of acquiring JF-17. While still mainting 120 MIII/M V, 30 A-5/ Q-5, 100 old F-7's from the 1980's. Thats 362 aircraft.

While we have retired 90 old Mig-23's, 100 odd Mig 21's.

so our strength right now is about 106 SU-30 MKI, 18 - SU -30-K or 124 MKI plus 18 K's
Mirage 2000-51- in the process of being upgraded
Mig-29- 65 -in the process of being upgraded
Mig21 Bis- 120 odd
Jaguar 100 IS+10 IM +last batch of 37, Total 147
Mig 27 - 120 odd.

Plus IN 10- Harrier, 10-12 Mig 29.

362 Vs 600 and considering a 2 Front war we seem to have lost the edge to dominate the PAF. Thats why Qureshi was soo arrogant, he knows India stregth has weakened considerably compared to 10 years ago.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Jul 2010 18:45

More US goodies on the way to Pakistan

Clinton said she and Kayani discussed Pakistan’s “request for excess defence assets, something that we think makes a lot of sense — how we can better exchange intelligence”. “I understand the challenges they face,” she added.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 20 Jul 2010 21:58

We could soon expect a war or a Kargil 6 months down the line.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2010 22:06

pakistan's big talk has always rested on support from unkil+chin+nuclear weapons.

having a good position on conventional weapons is not a huge factor for them.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Jul 2010 22:27

Pakistan has won approval on possible sales of Predator drones. Each of the latest Avenger versions can cost as much as a single Bandar.

Predator approved for Pakistan

General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc., the privately held maker of Predator drones, said it has won U.S. approval for an export version of the unmanned plane that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are interested in buying.

“There’s interest from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates,” Frank Pace, president of the Poway, California-based company, said in an interview at the Farnborough Air Show near London today. The U.S. recently approved the company’s request for an unarmed version of the Predator drone for export to countries beyond the NATO block, Japan, Australia and New Zealand, Pace said.

The company may sell as many as 100 of the so-called Predator XP models that is approved for export, Pace said. General Atomics has sold about 435 Predator series of drones. The average price of the plane ranges from about $4 million for the basic model to about $15 million for the latest Avenger version, according to spokeswoman Kimberly Kasitz.

“Saudi Arabia is a huge country and if they want to cover the country well they alone could get 50 aircraft,” Pace said.

The export version of the Predator, based on the model used by the U.S. Army and the Air Force, will lack the ability to carry weapons and will be designed only for surveillance and reconnaissance missions, Pace said.

General Atomics also builds the Predator B model with extended range and a newly launched Predator C or Avenger version that can evade enemy radar. Boeing Co., Northrop Grumman Corp., and Lockheed Martin Corp., also make unmanned air vehicles used by the U.S. military for surveillance and armed missions.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Jul 2010 23:07

^^ No links, no URL??