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Austin wrote:
I would rather not pre judge and say Oh because its made by china , it surely must be cheaper and likely unreliable , because the chinese toys I buy is cheaper and unreliable.
example of exemplary Chinese QA
On 9 March 1997, a 155mm artillery round exploded in the barrel of a FH-2000 gun howitzer during a live firing exercise conducted by the 23rd Battalion of Singapore Artillery at the artillery range of Waiouru Army Camp, near Waiouru in New Zealand. This resulted in the fatality of two full-time national servicemen of the battalion
The conclusion of the Committee was that the most probable cause of this incident was a faulty artillery fuze that was fitted to the 155 mm projectile which had been loaded into the gun howitzer that resulted in the premature detonation. Subsequently, Chartered Industries of Singapore (CIS, parent company of Chartered Ammunition Industries) conducted a X-ray check on the same batch of fuzes from where the faulty fuze was taken from and found that approximately 1.3% of these fuzes were faulty.
Further investigations also revealed that the batch of flawed fuzes was supplied by the Chartered Ammunition Industries (CAI) to MINDEF under a tender back in 1992, in which the CAI was tasked to supply fuzes manufactured according to internationally accepted military specifications. This required thorough inspections and other quality checks and control measures during and after the manufacturing process to ensure that the proper functionality of the fuzes. CAI, in turn, sub-contracted Island Ordnance Systems (IOS) in the United States, for the supply of these fuzes. And without informing CAI, IOS had obtained the flawed fuzes from Xian Dong Fang Machinery Factory in the province of Shaanxi, People's Republic of China (PRC).
Niran , Do you know even the 125 mm round made by OFB exploded and killed Indian Tank men and some 80 thousand rounds had to be dumped , good example of QC ?
Sorry but I cant read chinese! can you please translate? Just because it has a bulge and a spot doesnt mean its MAWS, it can be any other thing, such as for formation flights, static electricity spot(??, not remembering the right term)
So what do you mean by modular in aircraft terms ? I always thought it was the ease at which system's can be decoupled and other systems can be integrated into the main architecture. Pakis are negotiating with Frenchies -- for radar , avionics (EW , RWR , etc) , HMS , Navi , etc. They plan to incorporate all these or atleast they planned to till frenchies showed the middle finger on their aircraft , Plus Chinicoms will be integrating WS 13 engine.-- just indicates that system is modular atleast IMO.
Do tell us what do you mean by modular ?
I dont think there is anything like "modular aircraft" that term is generally used for ships, there is avionics and engine and there is the airframe, you can accommodate as much avionics and any engine that the airframe allows you to!
No there is no quote or link -- however the crux of the discussion happening everywhere is that Thunder is a cost effective aircraft -- .i.e cheap to procure. Pretty much everyone is saying that pricing is said to between 17 - 20 od million dollars. Anything more and the thunder will fizzle out against other competitors.
Well then lets wait till we get a confirmation that it is worth that much, paquis will still buy it because they cannot get anything else with these features, as quickly to replace their obsolete aircrafts!
edit-smileys added to indicate posting done in a non-aggressive manner
Austin wrote:
Niran , Do you know even the 125 mm round made by OFB exploded and killed Indian Tank men and some 80 thousand rounds had to be dumped , good example of QC ?
Does this make Chinese quality better saar? Does his torn shirt make my fly seal itself?
Shiv saar it does not but the point I was trying to make was just because OFB screwed up is by no means benchmark to judge our other defence products ,similarly some Chinese ammo screw up should not be seen as a benchmark for quality of their other goodies , blanket generalization can be unfair and misleading.
Coming back to the topic , AFM July issue which has PAF chief interview and some pictures of JF-17 in flight ( by Alan Warnes ) shows the nozzle to be normal shape like F-16 or Tejas ( for the raw nerves I am not trying to compare the Tejas and Thandar ) , wonder if they are experimenting with different nozzle or perhaps just a normal shape when landing/landed.
Interestingly in Alan report 4 JF-17 participated in a exercise High Mark 2010 and dropped 4 dumb bomb ( Mk 82 908 kg ) with spectacular precision.
Austin wrote:Shiv saar it does not but the point I was trying to make was just because OFB screwed up is by no means benchmark to judge our other defence products ,similarly some Chinese ammo screw up should not be seen as a benchmark for quality of their other goodies , blanket generalization can be unfair and misleading.
Look at it in this way. Are you saying OFB products show world class reliability, since you choose to compare them with Chinese products whose reliability you do not want to doubt.
Recall that in this discussion of Chinese products you chose to bring in the example of Tejas as not of proven reliability. And now you say that unreliability of Chinese products is no more than unreliability of OFB products.
Every time anyone talks about the reliability of a Chinese product, you bring in an Indian example. Using the examples you have provided all that I can see is:
1) Tejas: unproven reliability
2) OFB shells - unreliable
Therefore Chinese products are as unrelaible as Indian ones. You are saying so yourself. Or do you still say that you "don't know" about Chinese products? Others may not know - but clearly you must know - since you have given both the comparisons of unproven (Tejas) or bad (OFB) Indian products yourself. Is this unfair or misleading?
I am not getting any increased confidence in Chinese products after reading your examples
Farnborough 2010: Pakistan increases autonomy in production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft
Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Farnborough
Two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder aircraft were displayed at the Farnborough International Airshow, marking the first appearance by that platform at any Western airshow. The aircraft were developed and built at China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) Aircraft Plant 132 in Sichuan Province under the FC-1 designator.
The rebranding of the design as the JF-17 is intended to convey the message that the programme is a co-operative effort between CAC and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.
However, the PAF and other senior technical personnel from the PAC have emphasised that "we are doing almost everything by ourselves now" and that where, at one time, assistance from the Chinese would have been required to integrate third-party onboard systems, "we are now able to complete this kind of work without the assistance of the Chinese".
PAC officials told Jane's there has been considerable investment made in the PAC in order to support a full-spectrum capability to not only support the production of the JF-17, but also the manufacturing of its major onboard subsystems. The construction of additional facilities to support JF-17 production has resulted in the creation of four factories at the Kamra site facility that go far beyond its original capacity as just a [commercial] maintenance, repair and overhaul.
The JF-17 programme is run by a PAF management team headed by Air Vice Marshal Mohammed Arif. Speaking to Jane's , AVM Arif said the team of engineers and designers supporting the JF-17 have proficiency with more than just the Chinese-designed hardware that constitutes the aircraft's configuration at present.
The concept for the JF-17 is to use it as a basic platform that can be exported to multiple countries and to fit it with whatever set of onboard systems a customer would prefer. "We have learnt how to integrate different avionics and weapon systems on to the JF-17," AVM Arif said. "There is still active interest in having the set of French-made hardware for the aircraft - the Thales RC400 radar and the MBDA air-to-air missiles - that have been under discussion for some time now."
The integration of third-party, non-Chinese equipment onto the aircraft is an option that would primarily be at the request of an export customer. The PAC programme managers are satisfied with the aircraft's hardware and state that the JF-17's avionics fit and glass cockpit are superior to the older-model F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft that the PAF acquired in the 1980s.
One of the systems the PAC designers give full marks to is the CETC/NRIET KLJ-7 radar set. A PAC programme officer told Jane's : "I have flown with this radar and with other models that we have looked at fitting to this aircraft, such as the Thales RC400, and the Chinese radar is every bit as capable as its contemporary analogues." He added that the performance of the CETC KG300G electronic warfare pod was effective and that "there will be an upgraded version available within a year-and-a-half".
One of the central question marks on the programme has been the aircraft's Russian-designed-and-built Klimov RD-93 jet engine, which is produced by the Chernyshev plant in Moscow.
Just prior to the Farnborough Airshow, the Moscow newspaper Kommersant reported that Mikhail Pogosian, the general director for Sukhoi and RSK-MiG, had written an official letter to the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Co-operation (FSVTS), which regulates all exports of military-related items, and the Russian state arms export monopoly, Rosoboronexport, asking that the next tranche of 100 RD-93 engines to be shipped to CAC in Chengdu be cancelled.
The RD-93 is a specially configured variant of the MiG-29's RD-33, optimised for a single-engine aircraft. This version of the engine was originally conceived in the early 1990s as an option for upgrading older-model MiG-21 aircraft. A similar model of the engine, the SMR-95, was also developed in the same timeframe for use in the South African Mirage F1 and Cheetah D-2 aircraft. In both configurations, the gearbox and other components of the accessory pack are rotated from the top - where they are positioned on the standard RD-33 - to the bottom of the engine casing.
Pogosian is reportedly requesting a halt to deliveries of the engine to CAC on the grounds that the re-export of the engine, once installed in the FC-1/JF-17, damages the interests of MiG in several markets. Negotiations for a MiG-29 purchase are supposedly ongoing in some of the same nations - Egypt, Algeria, Bangladesh and Nigeria - that have also been approached by the JF-17 sales team. For the moment, the contract for the export of these next 100 engines remains unsigned.
AVM Arif told Jane's that "if the Russians decide to cut off shipments of the RD-93 to us, then we still have other options. One of those is a Chinese-made WS-13 engine, which was certified by the Chinese in 2007 and has been in low-rate initial production since 2009. Pakistan industry officials confirm that it is currently undergoing flight tests on an FC-1 aircraft from CAC. Its thrust rating in the present version is almost 10 per cent higher than the RD-93 and an increased/enhanced performance engine version of up to 10 metric tonnes is in development.
When asked about the WS-13, AVM Arif stated that "the Chinese engine needs time to mature and might not be available for five years or more". However, one of his deputies said privately that the air vice marshal was giving the "worst case scenario and being a bit cautious". The WS-13, they say, could be ready for use with the JF-17 as soon as two years from now.
The JF-17 has also completed trials of dropping of unguided bombs and firings of the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC) Pi Li PL-5EII infrared air-to-air missile. The LOEC Shan Dian-10 (SD-10), an active radar-homing air-to-air missile, is currently undergoing integration and will be finished with its demonstration firing before the end of the year.
"The biggest plus for the JF-17 is the cost-performance ratio, which is exceptionally good considering what you get at this price," said AVM Arif. The long-term Pakistani plan is to have a high-low mix of fighters with the newer-model F-16C/D Block 52+ aircraft they are receiving from the US as the upper tier and the JF-17 on the lower tier.
One of the Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft seen at the Farnborough International Airshow. (IHS Jane's/Patrick Allen)
Summing up the air show, Mike Alvis, executive vice president of the American defence technology supplier ITT Defense International said at a press conference: “We’re seeing unbelievable demand from India. There’s a lot of willingness to spend on defence.” Western firms are seeing India as the biggest spender among emerging economies.
The Americans too seemed enthusiastic about growing defence ties with India at the air show. An American arms supplier, Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, who was at the air show, commented on Indo-US ties: “The relationship is at the best and highest level it’s been.”
Christopher Chadwick, president of Boeing military aircraft - which too has a stake in India’s MMRCA deal - said India was interested in buying more than the 10 C-17 planes already planned. The C-17 Globemaster deal at approximately 3.8 billion pounds is the largest Indo-US deal ever, overtaking the 1.4 billion-pound contract for eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft inked last year.
K Mehta wrote:
Sorry but I cant read chinese! can you please translate? Just because it has a bulge and a spot doesnt mean its MAWS, it can be any other thing, such as for formation flights, static electricity spot(??, not remembering the right term)
Sorry Mehta ji ..even i dont have any clue on how to read Chinese except for guessing chinese menu cards in a restraunt ..but i had this info long back in one of the chini forums -- a very sane and knowledgeable poster (not the typical BS ones) posted this -- and said MAWS has been incorporated. This picture dates back to late 2009's. In lieu of absolute no information on JF17 , i am pretty sure the entire internet world builds their knowledge database by scrapping through these kind of info. So for now lets assume that JF17 indeed has MAWS -- a very nice feature.
K Mehta wrote:
I dont think there is anything like "modular aircraft" that term is generally used for ships, there is avionics and engine and there is the airframe, you can accommodate as much avionics and any engine that the airframe allows you to!
Then JF17 solves its purpose as a upgradeable platform.
K Mehta wrote:
Well then lets wait till we get a confirmation that it is worth that much, paquis will still buy it because they cannot get anything else with these features, as quickly to replace their obsolete aircrafts!
Sure -- Pakis will buy it. But IMO they will do a good job at it. They have a good advanced platform in the form of F16 -- so internal comparison with JF 17 is bound to happen -- which will only improve the JF's. Its still long way to go before platform shows maturity -- but we will the signs of things to come in a year or two.
K Mehta wrote:
edit-smileys added to indicate posting done in a non-aggressive manner
I would not be able to name all the aircraft in there. Please fell free to add comments, caption etc to the images. It would be a great learning experience for me as well.
I could not arrange for a telephoto lens and as a consequence I do not have any decent images of the ships in action.
I would have loved to cover the Spitfires in action.
Does his torn shirt make my fly seal itself?