MRCA News and Discussion

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 19:36

^^^Guess you are right and I should practice Taqqiya a bit.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Aug 2010 19:37

Philip wrote:My only Q about choosing either the Rafale or the Typhoon is that both are more expensive than the SU-30MKIs,which are supposedly superior to both and which aircraft will the IAF in future use as "bomb trucks" for close-support/ground support?

Indeed and that is the question to which I never got or found satisfactory answer ,it is far more expensive than an MKI or even Su-35 . Lets hope they can get the Typhoon or Rafale and near an MKI price , else it will be a case of costly because its western and does not add a pound of flesh over MKI.

Heck it will never be able to match MKI range on internal fuel

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Aug 2010 19:43

paramyog wrote:Guys...

We need some serious Stealth here..!!

Thats how we'll get our much needed air-superiority..

When Navy has been getting one stealth frigate after another, why has the Air Force been left behind..

Are we going to fly these planes to Sichuan and Schezwan showing off their butts with heat signatures or quietly make a killing and come back home with the pilots n planes intact.

Thats the reason why I had some respect for F-35.

So if we buy either, not without stealth please..!!!

Sir. This is off topic for this thread. I have posted a reply at the link below, which is a more appropriate thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 93#p919493

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 09 Aug 2010 19:49

Philip wrote: My only Q about choosing either the Rafale or the Typhoon is that both are more expensive than the SU-30MKIs,which are supposedly superior to both and which aircraft will the IAF in future use as "bomb trucks" for close-support/ground support?

Would not the MKIs and MMRCAs be sanitizing the battlefield of SAMs and giving us air superiority before we deploy bomb trucks... although i don't quite recall if we have dedicated bombers...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Aug 2010 20:06

If I compare the unit price of MKI , Typhoon , Rafale and Su-35 as given in Wiki

Typhoon - €63 million, US$ 83 million
Rafale - €64 million, US$84
Su-35 - US$ 65 million
Su-30MKI - US$ 45 million

Now I am not sure how accurate these prices are but by and large these prices should be what it should be ( correct me if i am wrong on prices )

So some babu in MOF will be asking this question why pay ~ $ 35 million more for a European fighter that does not provide any thing more than an MKI does at ~ 50 million per piece

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Aug 2010 20:12

The commercial side has to pay for itself. They certainly aren't going to sell engines at a loss.

Again, this is just $485 million. If they felt it was that important, they would just fund it.

GE Aviation had $13.2 billion in revenue in 2006.

$0.485 billion is certainly noticeable, but hardly make or break

It's this sort of gyan that one travels light-years on the internet to come to BRF and learn. The understanding of the value of R&D funding to commercial profit decades later. The Authoritativeness. The arrogance. The "404" ness.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 09 Aug 2010 20:25

paramyog wrote:Ok frens...

Some inside news. From sm1 in IAF.

EFT will win the bid for IAF.

However, PLAAF isnt scared. They have way too many Sukhois to take on the Indian Blitzkrieg on the Tibetan Plateaus. So this calls for some stealth capability and an AESA that can put the USAF best to shame.

And the PLAAF have very good reasons not to be scared. There are 4 countries which are making this figther, i.e. ETF. One of these countries will sell Chinese relevant details of this fighter. Bang goes our advantage with this fighter. PLAAF and PAF can depend on Saudi Arabia to inspect, in depth this aircraft. They can have dog fights and exercises with saudi arabia air force to see how this fighter performs. One of the reasons that India had sent its SU-30MKI to Red Flag Exercises, was to evaluate the performance of SU-30MKI against F-16. Add to this, the cost of building the support and maintenance infrastructure for a fresh aircraft.

I am not to sure that ETF will be best for India.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Aug 2010 20:29

airframe will mean little, the key question is what will be the radar and avionics fit? and will the saudis have anything comparable?

the more i think about the china scenario, the more that i become fixated on JSTARS, one of those will be more valuable than a squadron of MRCA's

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 09 Aug 2010 20:30

Gagan wrote:It was obvious that India would not be selecting Russian or US orgin fighters for the MMRCA for some time now.
The fact that India agreed to accept the P-8I and the C-130Js without the latest electronis suites, just because India didn't want to be bound in the CISMOA, would have given sleepless nights to the US aircraft manufacturers, because this was going to have a bearing on their fighters being in contention in the MMRCA. Their worst nightmares are coming true it seems.

As far as the toss up between the Rafale and the Eurofighter is concerned, the Eurofighter is clearly in the lead.

At the same time, the EF needs approval from the US before it is sold which may bump up the SH.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Aug 2010 20:31

which bits of EF need US approval and what are the alternatives?
hawk i believe was de-unkil-ed before we bought it

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Aug 2010 20:35

here: - I dont expect a problem because BaE has a huge US footprint now and knows which wheels to grease plus all the biggest EU govts will be
behind this sale.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/23 ... hter_sale/

Gov approval given for Saudi Eurofighter sale

That's the US government, of course

By Lewis Page • Get more from this author

Posted in Government, 23rd October 2008 15:26 GMT

The US government has given its approval for the sale of sensitive military technology to the Saudis in the form of Eurofighter combat jets developed cooperatively by the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.

Washington's approval is necessary because the Eurofighter, despite its origins, contains a significant amount of American technology which was only supplied to the Eurofighter consortium on condition that they would have to ask to sell it on to other countries.

Such consent would normally have been pro forma in the case of the Saudis, a country often supplied with arms by the US (though America seldom lets the Saudis have its best and latest stuff, as the European nations plan to). However, the Saudi Eurofighter deal was set up by UK-US weapons globocorp BAE Systems, which is currently under investigation by the US Justice Department for possibly-illegal payments relating to an earlier deal, made to the Saudi Prince Bandar via a Washington bank.

The UK's Serious Fraud Office originally uncovered details of the payments in the course of a corruption probe into BAE's Saudi dealings. However the SFO investigation was shut down on the orders of Tony Blair, following a visit to Number 10 Downing Street by Bandar, in a move later described as "abject surrender" by British judges. Blair was said to have capitulated at the thought of the Saudis ceasing to cooperate with Britain's intelligence services; and also, perhaps, at the prospect of losing the Eurofighter order.

Following leaks by SFO investigators irritated at being muzzled on Saudi orders, the feds got involved across the pond. The Justice department appear to have been concerned that US approval for export of the Eurofighters would imply that BAE's dealings with the Saudis were kosher, in effect pre-judging their investigation, and there was some support in Congress for this view.

Now, however, the Financial Times reports that a deal has been done between the Justice and State departments. The approval document presented to Congress will be specially, uniquely worded, making it clear that no decision on BAE's conduct is implied - that the company may still be found to have acted corruptly.

The FT quotes Greg Suchan, formerly a State arms-transfer official, as saying "I have never seen anything like that as part of a section 36 notification".

The paper describes the sale of 72 Eurofighters to the Saudis as a "£20bn deal" and "A boost for Britain's largest defence contractor", meaning BAE.

BAE is indeed the UK's biggest arms contractor - though nowadays less than a third of its employees are in Britain - but Blighty will not see anything like £20bn. The planes are to cost £4.3bn, which will be shared with the other manufacturing countries - which will include Saudi Arabia, as only the first 24 aircraft are to be assembled in the UK. The other 48 will be made on a line in the Gulf.

The other £15bn will again be spent as much as possible in Saudi Arabia, on maintenance, training and support activities. This money will move through BAE's balance sheets, probably allowing the purchase of some more American companies, but will have little to do with British jobs or British GDP - though no doubt the UK will have the privilege of looking after the large numbers of expat Brits who will do much of the groundwork, after they get old and the Saudis don't want them any more.

In related news, the UK SFO is back in BAE's face again, arresting and interviewing Julian Scopes, the company's head of Indian operations and former boss of government relations. The anti-corruption plods also pulled in Austrian toff Count Alfons Mensdorff-Pouilly, while en route from his Scottish stately home to Vienna. Austria was the Eurofighter's first export customer; the count admits working as a "consultant" for BAE, but denies all wrongdoing, his lawyer told the FT.

Meanwhile, the RAF has just taken delivery of its first Tranche 2 Eurofighters. When Tranche 2 is complete the RAF Eurofighter fleet will number 144, already more than the RAF can use. However the service plans to buy an additional 88 Tranche 3 jobs, heavily modified at significant extra expense to the UK taxpayer (think £5-6bn if reports are correct) to accord with the RAF's grandiose deep-bombing plans.

A large number of the original Tranche 1 British planes, not much good for modern missions, will spend the majority of their careers in mothballs before eventually being thrown away.

Under this scheme, each operational UK Eurofighter will have cost at least £200m, more than an American Raptor ultrafighter. And Eurofighters don't - never will - have Stealth. And it turns out they're full of American bits anyway.®

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 20:36

I believe the Germans assured us that all U.S parts would be replaced. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Aug 2010 20:40

some tidbits:

An international consortium EuroMIDS, which includes Data Link Solutions of the US, supplies the MIDS low volume terminal provides Link 16 capability for secure transfer of data.

Raytheon Systems Ltd is supplying anti-jam global positioning systems (GPS) for tranche 2.

AMRAAM

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 20:41

In any case there is nothing American made that the Europeans cant replace.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Aug 2010 20:42

now, if the american bits are replaced by french bits, then everyone in EU is happy
could explain why there are no shrill voices coming out of elysee palace

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Aug 2010 20:45

I think india should install its own datalink which is being developed or get the swedish TIDLS rather than US system with moles inbuilt. this we should ask for.

GPS sys can be sourced from europe or israel. even local receiver makers are there. between diehl, atlas, sagem, sextant, thales, mbda, eads et al all sorts of navigational kit is there. there wont be an issue here.

AMRAAM is a tricky one - mica doesnt match the range of amraam -D or C7, should we rely only on meteor as bvr or a mix of meteor+mica or meteor+amraam? maybe meteor + both versions of mica is best?

for wvr we can go for python5 though asraam is already integrated...go with whatever is the best there.

paveway is available for a2g, we already have older kits. desi sudarshan is coming online...we should integrate with GLONASS kit to make our own J-series out of it rather than rely on american or french AASM which is dependent on GPS and sher khans killswitch. swedish mjoelnir type submunition dispenser is there. crystal maze we already have.....not much worries except a few integration tests...all will have std interfaces.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Aug 2010 20:53

whatever be the choice we need a A-list team of lawyers to fine tune and proof read all aggreements signed rather than the MOD legal cell. if we screw up in contract clauses we will get raped over a barrel later. hire the most crooked lawyers in the world of arms contracts and pay them highly.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 09 Aug 2010 21:10

If the US approval is required to sell the plane, it would be hard to believe that the US components would be non critical or easily replaced.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Aug 2010 21:14

lets list them

engine/control system
radar
IRST
nav attack system (including all bits)
fbw
mfcd
hud
ecm suite
radio
rwr suite
maws
helmet sights

a2a mijjiles
a2g munitions

hydraulics
pneumatics

...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 21:16

Carl_T wrote:If the US approval is required to sell the plane, it would be hard to believe that the US components would be non critical or easily replaced.

The operative word is 'if', the G.O.I would be hard pressed to explain why the teens were rejected if they ultimately have to get unkil's approval.Dont see it happening, anyway would you care to shed some light on what these critical components are that the europeans can't provide in 2 years time.
TIA

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 09 Aug 2010 21:18

>>>>So some babu in MOF will be asking this question why pay ~ $ 35 million more for a European fighter that does not provide any thing more than an MKI does at ~ 50 million per piece

Austin,

This deal would be sweet (for India) only with a considerable discount on the list price along with "know why"s of AESA, Engine and some other tech which we may need to fill the gap. With all the mega deals over the years, Russians have not parted with their Engine tech or other critical tech to India. Also, the price quoted by you for the MKI is that for the Indian "made" ones...does it include our costs? What would be the cost of a Rafale or EF, once they are "made in India"?

I am an ardent supporter of Russian Arms; They have helped us a lot in the past, and we owe a lot to U.S.S.R for what we are today. No doubt about it. But still, I feel it is time for us to move on...You never know how the Bear would respond if there is a conflict with the Dragon in future! With all their love for India, Putin and his successor haven't been all that benevolent to Indian Military. They had been making their money ever since the break up of U.S.S.R and friendship has taken a backseat..

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 21:18

@lalmohan ji all this is 'bai hhath ka khel' for Europeans (which includes the french)

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 09 Aug 2010 21:24

Manishw wrote:
Carl_T wrote:If the US approval is required to sell the plane, it would be hard to believe that the US components would be non critical or easily replaced.
The operative word is 'if', the G.O.I would be hard pressed to explain why the teens were rejected if they ultimately have to get unkil's approval.Dont see it happening, anyway would you care to shed some light on what these critical components are that the europeans can't provide in 2 years time.
TIA

I don't know what they are neither engine, radar, avionics are american but the US retains some interest apparently. So if we're avoiding dealing with the US, then the EF is a strange decision considering US consent is necessary to buy the plane.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 09 Aug 2010 21:28

Carl_T wrote:
I don't know what they are, but if we're avoiding dealing with the US, then the EF is a strange decision considering US consent is necessary to buy the plane.

That is because it is not the GOI's decision. It is what some "unnamed sources" say is the IAF's decision.

Personally I think we are getting way ahead of ourselves here.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 21:30

Carl_T wrote:
I don't know what they are, but if we're avoiding dealing with the US, then the EF is a strange decision considering US consent is necessary to buy the plane.

Carl Ji
Can you provide any link that says that Indians are buying EF (or considering) which requires American approval.The saudi thing has been flogged to death and is long over and another two years from the date of signing are what the Europeans(including french) will have to replace any American parts? Why this apprehension?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 09 Aug 2010 21:34

I don't understand your question. The past page or two have been written under the assumption that India is settling for the EF. So it's not me claiming India is DEFINITELY picking the EF. As for US, if State Department approval is required to sell the plane, why is that?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Aug 2010 21:34

@GeorgeWelch ^^^

George, I don't know if you saw the article about the British Navy considering F/A-18s in lieu of some of the F-35s. I don't know if it's true but if it is, why do you think they would go for SHs when the Air Force has EF Typhoons and the French would have offered Rafale Ms?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Aug 2010 21:35

manish-ji, i could name you european vendors in all those categories, i am just looking for airing the debate. i have to say i havent looked into which US components are in place, but there will be - since the british and germans will have to cut big brother in (price of being chota bhai) to tech deals. only the french are able to resist this arm twisting because they made a strategic decision to spend on tech years ago. i suspect unkil also muscles in to prevent future sales that it does not want, either strategically or commercially

carl - US approval is required if any US subsystem has been installed, this is a far reaching and highly problematic (for others) piece of international law. i am sure unkil does it to remind everyone who the 800lb gorilla is

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Aug 2010 21:39

Austinji, the last 42 Su-30MKI bought were for 3.2 billion dollars. That brings it to around 76.2 million a piece . Besides this the MRCA in my opinion is also a learning experience. I think the reason for going for a "western" plane to get to know how the "western" planes are made and assimilate good practices. That way we will know the best of both worlds.

P.S. I don't believe the news report that one of Euro planes will win. Vishnuji has articulated my thoughts quite well in his post. I will wait till any official word is out.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 21:43

@lalmohan Ji You are right on target, the frenchies are the only ones who can punch the Gorilla flat if reqd., everybody including the Americans know this.That is why in most of my posts I keep on writing Europeans(including French).
Another factor(though smaller) is that India's economy is on the ascendant and America's is on the wane which would give further encouragement to frenchies and other Europeans to show some spine this time.The french and other Europeans are not going to sit as onlookers while America bags these orders.Their will be a tough fight put up this time says my 2 cents.Just because America is where it is today doesn't mean that it will be at the same position tomorrow especially with this huge flux coming into play economically.
Their is a third factor also which might come into play-If the russkies reconcile to the fact they are not getting the order, they will put their weight in giving it to the Europeans(including french).Russian french ties too seem to be warming up ala 'Mistral' class ships etc.

manum · Post by **manum** » 09 Aug 2010 22:04

ETF. One of these countries will sell Chinese relevant details of this fighter. Bang goes our advantage with this fighter. PLAAF and PAF can depend on Saudi Arabia to inspect, in depth this aircraft. They can have dog fights and exercises with saudi arabia air force to see how this fighter performs.

I wonder how selling EF centric detail will sabotage a whole research...I am also wondering how doing some dog fights with EF of arabs, PAF will get real advantage over EF. It's like either you have a good plane or not...We dun need "US ghosts and Phantoms" to fight a war.
say you inspected merc and you got nissan...so wud u get real advantage over its technology when racing...if you go too deep to inspect the machine...your machine might transform into the inspected machine...if dat is what china and pak can afford or would like to do...

and talk is about bending the whole program India centric...

These are kiddish concerns...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 09 Aug 2010 22:13

It seems the teen fanboys are pretty unhappy for reasons best known to them and are piling up one kiddish reasons after another to put a dampener but somehow I think its not going to work for them this time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Aug 2010 22:21

some details on F18 life extentions

BW:

Boeing May Get $7 Billion for Upgrades as Lockheed JSF Stalls
August 09, 2010, 12:42 PM EDT

By Gopal Ratnam and Tony Capaccio

Aug. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co. may receive $7 billion to extend the use of the Navy’s older fleet of F/A-18 jets, partly because of delays in Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.

In its 2012-2016 budget proposal, the Navy is considering spending the money to upgrade about 300 F/A-18 A and D fighters and lengthen their service lives by about 16 percent to 10,000 flight hours, the U.S. Government Accountability Office said in a report released today.

Overhauling the jets would help ensure that the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps have enough fighters to meet their needs through 2030 amid a slower-than-projected rollout of the JSF. The Air Force’s target is 2,000 fighters, and the total for the Navy and Marines is 1,240, the report said.

The Air Force and Navy may not meet those goals, and the “timing and magnitude of these shortfalls largely depend on assumptions about Joint Strike Fighter,” according to the GAO report, which was prepared for the U.S. House Armed Services Committee.

The F-35 program, with a projected cost of about $382 billion, is already four years behind schedule on milestones that include completion of the development phase and combat testing, beginning full-scale production and, finally, declaring the first Air Force and Navy units ready for combat.

New Spending

Spending on parts and equipment for older F/A-18s would be in addition to as much as $4.8 billion in planned Navy purchases of new F/A-18E/F models through 2015, the GAO said. The Air Force also is examining upgrades to about 300 Lockheed-built F- 16s, “but a fully informed cost-and-benefit analysis has not been done,” the report said.

The Pentagon is in the early stages of reviewing the fiscal 2012 budgets from the Army, Air Force and Navy, which won’t be final until February.

The Air Force and Navy plan to operate their first combat- ready F-35 squadrons in 2016, about five years behind the Air Force’s original June 2011 date and four years after the Navy goal, according to program documents listing initial milestones.

The Marine Corps’s April 2012 date is two years off the intended schedule.

Cheryl Irwin, a spokeswoman for the Pentagon, said it would be premature for the F-35 program office to comment on the report. Lieutenant Nate Christensen, a spokesman for the Navy, declined to comment.

The JSF is intended to give the Air Force, Navy and Marines a common strike aircraft that can be modified for each service’s needs.

The Pentagon has budgeted $58 billion for F-35 purchases through 2015, reaching $14.6 billion in that fiscal year, up from the pending $9.3 billion request for fiscal 2011, according to budget figures disclosed in the GAO repor

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 09 Aug 2010 23:46

Christopher Sidor wrote:And the PLAAF have very good reasons not to be scared. There are 4 countries which are making this figther, i.e. ETF. One of these countries will sell Chinese relevant details of this fighter. Bang goes our advantage with this fighter. PLAAF and PAF can depend on Saudi Arabia to inspect, in depth this aircraft.

That reasoning of losing our hidden cards applies to each and every foreign aircraft.
UAE can give training to PAF pilots on Rafale. India can only ask french not to sell Rafale to Barkistan but other sheikhdoms can definitely buy it and could have paf pilots in their ranks or have exercises with them. Similarly PAF can be trained against Superbugs too by usaf at any time in any exercise or redflag for "war against terror". India can cry foul as much as it wants.
Even for MKI, there were talks about atleast one paf pilot getting trained and familiarized with MKM's capabilities by Malaysia due to brotherhood by religion not to mention that paf should have exercised with dragon against MKKs at least.

With foreign planes there is a limit as to how far and how long India can prevent its rivals from getting trained and familiarized. The only true unfamiliar hidden cards can come from a homegrown solution. But an institution(IAF) that went to the extent of reportedly punishing the pilots who chose to be the test-pilots of Tejas, in terms of promotions, among other forms of discouragement can only pay for its Karma. Sigh !

Secondly, though having to deal with only one nation France for Rafale is cited as a plus point as against 4 nations for EF, I find exactly that reason apprehensive. In times of war, the dragon could hypothetically wave the moolah to the french to delay or withhold shipment of crucial spares for our rafales or supply of more of them. Their track record during the Falklands war holds ample proof of that. A nation that does business like business has first loyalty to its customer. But instead the French not only withheld supplies of more exocets to Argentina but even gave away its details to argentina's rival, UK. Such a country has credibility deficit. Look at how they recently wanted to lift embargo on dragon when it offered to buy 200 rafales. In contrast the probability of ALL 4 nations being simultaneously bribed by dragon into choking supply of parts to India during a war would be far lower. When Germany says it wants to be reliable partner of India, it atleast deserves a chance given that we have dealt much with everyone else.
Thus even though I favour Rafale over superbug as finalists but overall I would vote for Eurofighter Typhoon.

negi · Post by **negi** » 09 Aug 2010 23:50

Austin wrote:If I compare the unit price of MKI , Typhoon , Rafale and Su-35 as given in Wiki

Typhoon - €63 million, US$ 83 million
Rafale - €64 million, US$84
Su-35 - US$ 65 million
Su-30MKI - US$ 45 million

Now I am not sure how accurate these prices are but by and large these prices should be what it should be ( correct me if i am wrong on prices )

So some babu in MOF will be asking this question why pay ~ $ 35 million more for a European fighter that does not provide any thing more than an MKI does at ~ 50 million per piece

Boss we don't do such simble deals , you see the variables like licensed production and offsets need to be accounted for that alone will jack up the unit price by a substantial amount and I am not even including TFTA European training and PPTs on best practices

. HAWK deal should be a good indicator of the things to come.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Aug 2010 00:11

negi wrote: If I compare the unit price of MKI , Typhoon , Rafale and Su-35 as given in Wiki

Typhoon - €63 million, US$ 83 million
Rafale - €64 million, US$84
Su-35 - US$ 65 million
Su-30MKI - US$ 45 million

Now I am not sure how accurate these prices are but by and large these prices should be what it should be ( correct me if i am wrong on prices )

So some babu in MOF will be asking this question why pay ~ $ 35 million more for a European fighter that does not provide any thing more than an MKI does at ~ 50 million per piece

Boss we don't do such simble deals , you see the variables like licensed production and offsets need to be accounted for that alone will jack up the unit price by a substantial amount and I am not even including TFTA European training and PPTs on best practices . HAWK deal should be a good indicator of the things to come.

Of these choices add some more variables. Which countries can help India in the nuclear front in terms of NSG, approval and technology for civilian area. Also international bodies and agreements are important. That would be synergy and this can add value to this MRCA deal.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 10 Aug 2010 01:06

geeth wrote:>>>>So some babu in MOF will be asking this question why pay ~ $ 35 million more for a European fighter that does not provide any thing more than an MKI does at ~ 50 million per piece

Austin,

This deal would be sweet (for India) only with a considerable discount on the list price along with "know why"s of AESA, Engine and some other tech which we may need to fill the gap. With all the mega deals over the years, Russians have not parted with their Engine tech or other critical tech to India. Also, the price quoted by you for the MKI is that for the Indian "made" ones...does it include our costs? What would be the cost of a Rafale or EF, once they are "made in India"?

I am an ardent supporter of Russian Arms; They have helped us a lot in the past, and we owe a lot to U.S.S.R for what we are today. No doubt about it. But still, I feel it is time for us to move on...You never know how the Bear would respond if there is a conflict with the Dragon in future! With all their love for India, Putin and his successor haven't been all that benevolent to Indian Military. They had been making their money ever since the break up of U.S.S.R and friendship has taken a backseat..

I agree with you that the USSR was good to India in supporting us when we needed help. They provided us weapons, helped out at the U.N. with their veto power and helped in curtailing China during the '62 conflict, Kept the Americans at bay during the '72 war for Bangladesh. But the Russians, in the likes of Yeltsin, Putin, etc are being pennywise and pound foolish with their relationship with India. They're being so stingy with prices with the Gorshkov, and other demands for price increase over contract has really rubbed India the wrong way. Hence this new found desire in India to diversify our inventory. For the few hundreds of million with the Gorhkov, the Russians may have damaged future prospects with India. Warship acquisition used to be almost exclusively from the Russians, now we are building our own and may get our ships built in South Korea and elsewhere if necessary.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 10 Aug 2010 01:24

In times of war, the dragon could hypothetically wave the moolah to the french to delay or withhold shipment of crucial spares for our rafales or supply of more of them.

I have always found that part hard to understand. Should we not assume that IAF and MOD would have enough foresight to order well in advance spares including extra engines, radar equipment , weapon systems etc. Enough atleast for sustaining a full blown 2 month conflict.

The only other rational way around such a problem would be to produce all vital equipment in - house.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 10 Aug 2010 01:50

My two cents:
India would go for Eurofighter and Rafale - split in half. India wont go for F/A-18 unless ob-a-ma removes ISRO, DRDO, BHEL from banned entity list before his planned India trip.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 10 Aug 2010 03:02

Luxtor wrote:
geeth wrote:>>>>So some babu in MOF will be asking this question why pay ~ $ 35 million more for a European fighter that does not provide any thing more than an MKI does at ~ 50 million per piece

Austin,

This deal would be sweet (for India) only with a considerable discount on the list price along with "know why"s of AESA, Engine and some other tech which we may need to fill the gap. With all the mega deals over the years, Russians have not parted with their Engine tech or other critical tech to India. Also, the price quoted by you for the MKI is that for the Indian "made" ones...does it include our costs? What would be the cost of a Rafale or EF, once they are "made in India"?

I am an ardent supporter of Russian Arms; They have helped us a lot in the past, and we owe a lot to U.S.S.R for what we are today. No doubt about it. But still, I feel it is time for us to move on...You never know how the Bear would respond if there is a conflict with the Dragon in future! With all their love for India, Putin and his successor haven't been all that benevolent to Indian Military. They had been making their money ever since the break up of U.S.S.R and friendship has taken a backseat..
I agree with you that the USSR was good to India in supporting us when we needed help. They provided us weapons, helped out at the U.N. with their veto power and helped in curtailing China during the '62 conflict, Kept the Americans at bay during the '72 war for Bangladesh. But the Russians, in the likes of Yeltsin, Putin, etc are being pennywise and pound foolish with their relationship with India. They're being so stingy with prices with the Gorshkov, and other demands for price increase over contract has really rubbed India the wrong way. Hence this new found desire in India to diversify our inventory. For the few hundreds of million with the Gorhkov, the Russians may have damaged future prospects with India. Warship acquisition used to be almost exclusively from the Russians, now we are building our own and may get our ships built in South Korea and elsewhere if necessary.

I do not think the relationship with Russia is short-term or in jeopardy. I think it is a given. Having Russia in confidence, India is exploring other options to get the best there is, and to its strategic (long-term?) advantage.