Indian Naval Discussion

paramyog · Post by **paramyog** » 17 Aug 2010 14:41

Chris...
If Indian Navy does acquire JSF F-35c...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 102973.cms
How much of a strategic advantage are we to gain against the Chinese PLAN in a scenario at the Indian Ocean...

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 17 Aug 2010 18:18

paramyog wrote:Chris...
If Indian Navy does acquire JSF F-35c...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 102973.cms
How much of a strategic advantage are we to gain against the Chinese PLAN in a scenario at the Indian Ocean...

I think it will depend on the quantity in which we purchase (although after report of N PAKFA, it feel it is better aircraft to go for)...

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Aug 2010 03:31

Hitesh wrote:Is that the rock of Gibraltar?

The rock is much bigger than this.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 18 Aug 2010 10:59

paramyog wrote:Chris...
If Indian Navy does acquire JSF F-35c...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 102973.cms
How much of a strategic advantage are we to gain against the Chinese PLAN in a scenario at the Indian Ocean...

Nil. Infact we would be put at the mercy of the yanks if we acquire this aircraft. It would be better if go for a naval version of PAK-FA, provided offcourse it is able to outperform F-35.
We should from now onwards be ordering only those aircrafts, which have been designed with inputs from us, and with Indian Technicians and engineers playing an important and crucial role. This will make us truly independent of the sanctions and vagaries of foreign suppliers and countries.

nits · Post by **nits** » 18 Aug 2010 11:01

India Seeks Info on Light Helos From Contractors

The Indian Navy has entered the global market to buy 50 light utility helicopters to replace aging Chetak helos, which have outlived their life.

A request for information (RFI) has been sent to Eurocopter of Europe, AgustaWestland of Italy, Bell Helicopters of United States and Kamov of Russia. After the receipt of the RFI, formal requests for proposals will be sent to global vendors in three months, said a senior Indian Defence Ministry official.

The helicopters will be used for search-and-rescue missions, casualty evacuation, observation and surveillance, and limited electronic intelligence gathering.

Link

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Aug 2010 19:30

Two hi-tech Coast Guard hovercraft to be based at Chennai.

With 12 more hovercraft likely to be inducted in the Coast Guard in next three years, the agency's eastern region is likely to purchase two such craft and base them off Chennai to improve security along the coastline.

The Coast Guard already has six hovercrafts and 12 more are under construction. Out of these, the Coast Guard's eastern region is planning to purchase two for Chennai, two for Rameswaram and two for Puducherry.

The cost of a hovercraft is approximately Rs8 crore. According to Coast Guard officials, the presence of hovercraft in Chennai will enhance the force's preparedness in meeting any eventuality, like the need for sudden evacuation in the shortest time.

Speaking to reporters after a demonstration on Hovercraft H-181's performance on Tuesday, Coast Guard Commandant Venu Madhav said, ''Hovercraft are best suited for law enforcement duties at sea for their ability to move at a relatively high speed over shallow water and on land during a hot pursuit, which a speedboat cannot do.''

''Of the Coast Guard's six hovercraft vessels, we have positioned two at western borders in Okha, two at Haldia, West Bengal, and another two at Mandapam,'' Madhav said. The H-181 hovercraft was brought to Chennai from Mandapam to provide additional security cover from seashore during the Independence Day celebrations.

Hovercraft have been utilised for landing troops from ship to land, to cruise over mined waters, passenger liners/freight carriers. In the military, these can be used for fast attack, assault missions, logistics support and also for mine clearances.

The craft moves on water and land as well on a cushion of air pressure. Because of its design, hovercraft can even manoeuvre over marshy land, desert and undulated surface, and can pass over an obstacle of a significant height. The hovercraft is powered by two 12 cylinder air-cooled turbo charged engines, and produces 800 horse power of thrust.

Madhav said the use of hovercraft had helped to reduce smuggling from the western borders and rescue fishermen lost at sea.

As of now, the Coast Guard western region has four hovercrafts and the eastern region has two. "The hovercrafts will help enhance close coast patrolling. Even now we do this, but with these vehicles we can patrol faster and more efficiently," said Coast Guard Inspector General (eastern region) A Rajasekhar.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Aug 2010 23:13

Singha wrote:I guess thats why IN has asked for air search mode on the P8I radar, something that USN P8A will not have due to E2/E3.

Singha Saar,

Air search mode in these cases is a poor compromise.

Not effective enough to really matter.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Aug 2010 07:57

^ Tu-142 don't have that? How the ops involving Tu-142 is planned ?

Elta-2022

# True Multi-Mode Radar:
* Maritime and Airborne target-detection and tracking

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2010 11:33

the air search mode on P8I is expected to be used in purely self defence mode with periodic sweeps probably. thats to avoid enemy fighters sneaking up undetected, and permit enough time to call in the cavalry or slink away safely.
it need not be used when a KA31 AEW is providing cover or ships in vicinity are using their 3D search radars...but p8i will go to lots of lonely areas and needs to basic self-defence radar.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 19 Aug 2010 12:50

dear sirs, sorry for my ignorance but isn't an air search mode on an aircraft that can't defend itself against aerial threats, an invitation for trouble??

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 19 Aug 2010 13:04

Dmurphy wrote:dear sirs, sorry for my ignorance but isn't an air search mode on an aircraft that can't defend itself against aerial threats, an invitation for trouble??

The Aircraft is having a big RCS. So any how it will be painted from far distance.
The air search mode will give the people inside a better situation awareness.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2010 15:06

As a purely hypothetical exercise,I wonder why the Russians did not think of modifying the TU-142 platform into an AWACS as was done with the IL-76.The TU-142 has such immense range and endurance and from land bases on the Indian subcontinent,fly out to the farthest reaches of the IOR on patrol.This would avoid the neccessity of our carriers to operate Hawkeye sized medium sized AEW aircraft and either KA-31s or the new AEW equipped Merlins/EH-101s would suffice,being complemented by the LR Bears.UAVs could also prove very useful in an AEW role.Another intrgiung possibility is converting the Beriev MR/ASW amphibiansfor the role.These aircraft have far greater range than Hawkeye too and have the added advantage of being able to land on the sea too. x

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 19 Aug 2010 15:10

vishnu.nv wrote:The Aircraft is having a big RCS. So any how it will be painted from far distance.

Yeah, I thought as much. But then its like calling "Aa bail mujhe maar" to fighters which might have missed by chance.

I'd rather have a network of Aerostat radars and fighter support alongside at all times. JMT.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2010 15:15

Philip, Russia solves their own problems. expeditionary naval warfare on the surface was not their plan. land based mainstays could control the situation.

their older Tu126 Moss awacs did have a 12000km range.

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 Aug 2010 15:24

As a purely hypothetical exercise,I wonder why the Russians did not think of modifying the TU-142 platform into an AWACS as was done with the IL-76

There was a TU-142 based AWACS i think. But anyways, you need lot of cabin space for a AWACS. Maybe the TU-142 based airliner (whatever it used to be) was used. The plain vanilla TU142 has a very small fuselage cross section.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2010 15:24

Tx Singha,I forgot about the Moss!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Aug 2010 21:21

Dmurphy wrote:sorry for my ignorance but isn't an air search mode on an aircraft that can't defend itself against aerial threats, an invitation for trouble??

First of all, whether is their any air search mode or not, being the patrol aircraft it will be targeted. This air search mode will be useful in case of detecting low-level air intrusion into our territory or on the way to attack the Naval flotilla. It is a poor man's AWACS. Think of the scenario where Pak PC3 Orion trying to intrude your air space. Being the patrol aircraft you are adding more capability to watch the air in addition to the sea.

IIRC, IN asked for the P-8I to be equipped with air to air missile. JMT

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 20 Aug 2010 04:17

Did India ever operated Moss? i have seen many TSP blogs stating soviet Moss was reason for the complete air superiority we achieved during 1971 war. Gurus please share some gyan on this.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 20 Aug 2010 08:55

We did use during 1971 war.I Have read it that It was loaned by Russia. If any body remember after the 1971 war.There was airforce show or bypaas.moss plane was shown in Pass/show. I did watch the show.But only once.Then this plane was disappeared.It was never again heard of the Moss.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Aug 2010 09:35

OT Here-. This is Indian naval Discussion.

But Kuldipcharger, Vishnu.Nv etc. claims of the Moss in 1971 were all from the PAF side, this was suppossed to be reason for why PAF did challenge the IAF was bombing the PA. Truth could be PAF pilots did not want to risk thier lifes defending PA.

No one from IAF side has given any credence to this claim.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Aug 2010 10:06

PAF looking for an excuse to justify why they fight their own wars and never co-ordinate to serve the PA/PN.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2010 13:09

The Moss was reportedly dropped in favour of the A-50,using an IL-76 platform,just like our Phalcons,one reported reason being poor performance over land,OK over water,radar return interference from large engine nacelles,good jamming capabilities.I was thinking of using the TU-142 not with a rotordome,but with conformal radars as the Israeli's have done so on their Gulfstreams,or the linear AESA fuselage mounted radars like the Swedes and Brazilians and our desi AEW/ASWACS version meant for the Embraer platforms odered.A TU-142 with an AESA radar ,plus conformal radars would avoid the shortcomings of a rotodome and give the operator a phenomenal range and endurance on station.

PS:Russia is now to open tenders for their helo carrier,most probable the Mistral design which they've evaluated and are happy with.One will be bought and 3 built at home.The Russians say that they can build a "Mistral" in just 30 months! If so,this would be an excellnt opportunity to meet our shortage of amphibious vessels too by joining the French/Russian package with orders for at least two,which could both arrive within 3/4 years!
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... MI0100.htm

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Aug 2010 13:49

Singha wrote:PAF looking for an excuse to justify why they fight their own wars and never co-ordinate to serve the PA/PN.

The Moss story was circulated after IAF achieved great success in single ship night time raid on the PAF airfield in 1971. These were done by the TACDE crews (the BR article on TACDE has the details - I cannot seem to locate it).

Fom Global Security Page on TACDE:

During the 1971 operations, the TACS was assigned the operational role of single aircraft night counter air strikes on major Pakistani airfields. The squadron was quick to react and launch counter air missions against enemy airfields, starting from the early hours of 04 Dec 71. For the next three nights, the squadron continued to attack enemy airfields. These daring single aircraft missions were carried out with great accuracy. That the attacks had a considerably demoralising effect on Pakistani pilots, has been confirmed by a captured PAF MiG-19 pilot

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Aug 2010 15:26

Guys good news guys NERPA aka INS Chakra II has been handed over to India. It has left Russia for India

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE67J0GL.htm

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 20 Aug 2010 16:09

Aditya_V wrote:OT Here-. This is Indian naval Discussion.

But Kuldipcharger, Vishnu.Nv etc. claims of the Moss in 1971 were all from the PAF side, this was suppossed to be reason for why PAF did challenge the IAF was bombing the PA. Truth could be PAF pilots did not want to risk thier lifes defending PA.

No one from IAF side has given any credence to this claim.

Aditya,

i never claimed anything, Just want to know actual truth behind the story.

Another Story which i have read somewhere is that, IAF pilots being very fluent in Russian used to talk to each other in Russian over their radios. This made a utter confusion among the PAF pilots whether they are fighting Russian's or there is a Moss guiding the Indian Migs.

Sorry for going out of thread.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Aug 2010 16:14

vishnu.nv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:OT Here-. This is Indian naval Discussion.

But Kuldipcharger, Vishnu.Nv etc. claims of the Moss in 1971 were all from the PAF side, this was suppossed to be reason for why PAF did challenge the IAF was bombing the PA. Truth could be PAF pilots did not want to risk thier lifes defending PA.

No one from IAF side has given any credence to this claim.
Aditya,

i never claimed anything, Just want to know actual truth behind the story.

Another Story which i have read somewhere is that, IAF pilots being very fluent in Russian used to talk to each other in Russian over their radios. This made a utter confusion among the PAF pilots whether they are fighting Russian's or there is a Moss guiding the Indian Migs.

Sorry for going out of thread.

Ok My post was also in response to Kuldipcharger post which seemed to indicate that the use of Moss was a given, no offense meant to either of you, Lets move on.

On another note great news with respect to Nerpa, I hope she and Arihant start the patrols soon and there are more SLBM tests from Arihant and Brahmos tests from the NERPA

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Aug 2010 17:06

OK. Final word on the topic of Moss and TACDE and IAF:

The squadron had barely settled down at Ambala when dark clouds of war loomed on the horizon. The original plan of entrusting the squadron with development and training work with no burden of operational commitments, were quickly shelved, and the squadron was assigned an operational role.

The requirement was to carry out single aircraft night counter air strikes over major Pakistani airfields. To equip themselves the pilots carried out extensive night flying training with accent on proficiency in operating at low levels.

On the 3rd of December 1971, the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) struck a number of Indian airfields in northern India. By midnight, India was officially at war with Pakistan.

The squadron was quick to react and launched counter air missions against enemy air fields in the early hours of 04 December 1971. For the next three nights, the squadron continued to attack enemy airfields at Chander, Risalewala, Sargodha and Chaklala. These daring single aircraft missions required extreme courage and skill as they were carried out without use of any navigational aids or marker flares to guide the pilots to their targets.

The attacks had a considerable demoralising influence on the Pakistani pilots as confirmed by a captured MiG-19 pilot. The accuracy and effects of these attacks were also subsequently confirmed by an article written in a leading journal, International Defence Review(IDR), where it was alleged that the night strikes were flown by Russian pilots and controlled by an Airborne Warning And Control System(AWACS) aircraft! During these missions, not a single aircraft was lost or damaged.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Aug 2010 17:19

Christopher Sidor wrote:Guys good news guys NERPA aka INS Chakra II has been handed over to India. It has left Russia for India

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE67J0GL.htm

WOW,

It is a wonderful news, after all this time.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 20 Aug 2010 17:43

rohitvats wrote:OK. Final word on the topic of Moss and TACDE and IAF:

The squadron had barely settled down at Ambala when dark clouds of war loomed on the horizon. The original plan of entrusting the squadron with development and training work with no burden of operational commitments, were quickly shelved, and the squadron was assigned an operational role.

The requirement was to carry out single aircraft night counter air strikes over major Pakistani airfields. To equip themselves the pilots carried out extensive night flying training with accent on proficiency in operating at low levels.

On the 3rd of December 1971, the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) struck a number of Indian airfields in northern India. By midnight, India was officially at war with Pakistan.

The squadron was quick to react and launched counter air missions against enemy air fields in the early hours of 04 December 1971. For the next three nights, the squadron continued to attack enemy airfields at Chander, Risalewala, Sargodha and Chaklala. These daring single aircraft missions required extreme courage and skill as they were carried out without use of any navigational aids or marker flares to guide the pilots to their targets.

The attacks had a considerable demoralising influence on the Pakistani pilots as confirmed by a captured MiG-19 pilot. The accuracy and effects of these attacks were also subsequently confirmed by an article written in a leading journal, International Defence Review(IDR), where it was alleged that the night strikes were flown by Russian pilots and controlled by an Airborne Warning And Control System(AWACS) aircraft! During these missions, not a single aircraft was lost or damaged.

Thank's for the info Friend.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Aug 2010 17:59

India to get Russian nuclear submarine on lease in fall

The Russian K-152 Nerpa nuclear attack submarine, which is currently carrying out workup trials in the Russian Far East, will be transferred to India on a 10-year lease in the fall, a spokesman for the Amur Shipbuilding Plant said on Friday.

The workup includes a training program for the Indian crew to ensure they can operate the submarine's systems, the spokesman said.

The lease contract, estimated at some $900 million, was drawn up following an agreement between Moscow and New Delhi in January 2004, in which India agreed to fund part of the Nerpa's construction.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Aug 2010 18:32

Christopher Sidor wrote:Guys good news guys NERPA aka INS Chakra II has been handed over to India. It has left Russia for India

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE67J0GL.htm

Good news,isn't it.. may be it will be better if they announce a followup lease if there is any such thing.

Maybe if there is such thing in near future, what would we be getting? The same Akula or the modern Severodvinsk. Will that be the current one or the upgraded mark-2 Severodvinsk in the plans with pump-jet all such stuff...hey, how much it cost to render the service of Octopus Paul for this. May be i'm making sense. If the IN guys call the current INS Arihant as TD and goes to say the future built ones will be different and larger than this Arihant...maybe it is starting to make some sense, isn't it.....

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 20 Aug 2010 20:12

If Arihant was just a TD then there would not be an additional two hulls built that will be turned into ATV-2 and 3.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 20 Aug 2010 20:18

Christopher Sidor wrote:Guys good news guys NERPA aka INS Chakra II has been handed over to India. It has left Russia for India

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE67J0GL.htm

Finally, good news.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 20 Aug 2010 20:51

If the IN guys call the current INS Airavat as TD and goes to say the future built ones will be different and larger than this Airavat...maybe it is starting to make some sense, isn't it

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Aug 2010 21:41

^ Ooopps...Thnx

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Aug 2010 21:49

Willy wrote:If Arihant was just a TD then there would not be an additional two hulls built that will be turned into ATV-2 and 3.

Some news reported that ATV-2/3 will be different from ATV-1 whereas others indicated that ATV-4/5 will be larger than the ATV-1, i.e. Airhant Class.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Aug 2010 22:01

vishnu.nv wrote: Thank's for the info Friend.

Welcome, mate.

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 20 Aug 2010 22:15

Click

“The Nerpa, under the command of an Indian crew, left its base on Russia's Pacific coast earlier this week, bound for an Indian naval base,” Interfax news agency quoted a source in Russia's military-industrial complex as saying.

Now i want my promised mithai........

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Aug 2010 22:57

I request that the mithais be donated to the sailaab victims to promote peace

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Aug 2010 10:27

Let the Mithai be donated to the Naxals so that they stop the carnage and rejoin the mainstream. The Pakis can be flushed along with Pakistaniet