chetak, let's be clear. There is absolutely no way that we can give direct relief to victims in KP, Balochistan & Sindh, the subject matter of this thread. We have to explore the next best options only.chetak wrote:Smuggling becomes an offence when undeclared goods cross some international border.
I have always believed that we should do everything within our power to overwhelm Pakistan in the shortest possible time without unduly risking ourselves. No opportunity must be lost to drive home certain messages to Pakistanis. We must hasten the natural processes within the Land of the Purest. Some can be overt, some can be covert; but, they all must be done.RajeshA wrote:Where we can give them the 1000 cuts is in their misplaced sense of superiority, we can pour oil to their fires of jealousy, we can further tear down their self-respect. Giving aid is turning the blade.
The above is however a secondary reason. The primary reason however should really be to support centrifugal forces in Pakistan.
Nobody posting in this thread, feels even in the slightest bit that aid money should go to Pakjab. I could understand that the Pakjabis would feel that way, as you put it. They send their lashkars to India and India sends money and supplies to them. That would be construed as jizya (Sorry Jaziya reminds of Jadzia Dax of DS9 fame)!derkonig wrote:Giving aid is not turning the blade, it will be interpreted as jaziya.
SSridhar wrote:chetak, let's be clear. There is absolutely no way that we can give direct relief to victims in KP, Balochistan & Sindh, the subject matter of this thread. We have to explore the next best options only.chetak wrote:Smuggling becomes an offence when undeclared goods cross some international border.
Of course, I know smuggling is an offence. I also know that almost all of what intelligence agencies do are illegal and offensive too. What are they there for ?
I'll give it a try. A smuggler can get caughtchetak wrote:"SSridhar wrote:"The smugglers will be paid by Indian agencies with strict instructions to distribute the goods free, lest they be caught for smuggling and punished.
This is the part that I do not understand.
How will this help?
RajeshA wrote:
I'll give it a try. A smuggler can get caughtIf he is disposing those goods by selling them, some official in Pakistan can question him, whether he has a permit to sell, and where he has purchased the goods. If the 'smuggler' is simply gifting the goods away to the needy flood victims, nobody will question his intentions or where he got the goods from. Even if there is some query out of interest, he can lie.
- while he is smuggling his goods into the country,
- while he is in possession of the goods, or
- when he is disposing of those goods.
The chances of him getting caught, with the consequence that he spills the beans about his India connection diminish.
It is just a try, not an air-tight case.
If the baki official finds that the goods distributed are from sdres, then all hell will break loose.RajeshA wrote:
If he is disposing those goods by selling them, some official in Pakistan can question him, whether he has a permit to sell, and where he has purchased the goods. If the 'smuggler' is simply gifting the goods away to the needy flood victims, nobody will question his intentions or where he got the goods from. Even if there is some query out of interest, he can lie.
The chances of him getting caught, with the consequence that he spills the beans about his India connection diminish.
It is just a try, not an air-tight case.
Assumption: The Goods have India Labels!krisna wrote:If the baki official finds that the goods distributed are from sdres, then all hell will break loose.
1) Any labels identifying from India will be suspect including the persons involved.
2) If the goods do not have sdre labels it defeats the purpose.
3) If the goods do not have the labels but abduls are informed that sdre is supplying it, they make or may not believe it.
What is the guarantee that sdres will not be lynched at the instigation of some mullah(similar to sialkot lynching).
risks are high and do not diminish.
JMT.
Of course not! But it is a question of precedents. Once a precedent has been established, there will be innumerable repeats of it.SwamyG wrote:I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.
What is the worst thing that could happen?RajeshA wrote:Of course not! But it is a question of precedents. Once a precedent has been established, there will be innumerable repeats of it.SwamyG wrote:I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25In May 1997 an Indian Air Force MiG-25RB was detected flying faster than Mach 2 at least 65,000 ft,over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled, but could not match the MIG-25 ceiling. India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad.[29] The MiG-25 was an important strategic asset to India until the advent of reconnaissance satellites.
RajeshA wrote:Of course not! But it is a question of precedents. Once a precedent has been established, there will be innumerable repeats of it.SwamyG wrote:I am not asking to take the entire 180 million, just a few thousand to get the necessary psy-ops & long term benefits.
It seems this flood aftermath condition would not last longer than 3-4 months, at least its acute aspect. If India sets up refugee camps this time around, some refugees would stay for a few months, others may disappear into the Indian population ocean. WKK would of course greet those refugees at the border, do some photo ops with them, and show their presence in the Indian media.SwamyG wrote: What is the worst thing that could happen?
RajeshA wrote:One thing, one thing one could do is for the Indian Govt. to announce that it is offering a subsidy on relief goods for all international relief organizations.
For every dollar spent on procuring relief supplies in India, India is willing to spend 25 cents. Secondly India is willing to open Wagah and other border crossings for the delivery of the purchased relief supplies. Within Indian territory, India is willing to transport all supplies all the way to the border free of charge, from where the International Relief Agencies can take over and supply the goods either to the Pakistani Government or put up their own distribution system. Supplying goods from India would be much easier and cost-effective. No need to get the goods from elsewhere in the world.
If necessary, India is willing to rent some helicopters as well, for surveying, delivering, etc.
All goods would be having the "Made in India" Label.
That way India gets to make profit on all the money collected for Pakistani Aid, and Pakistan gets the relief supplies as they should.
Rajiv Shah should look at this option, and promote it further to the various aid agencies. Europeans too should look at it.
chetak ji,chetak wrote:Some facts about the pakis.
They don't want any flood aid articles that says made in India, period.
They don't want Indian pilots flying over their territory,
or even Indian aid workers operating in their country.
They don't want their public to know that any of the aid comes from India.
If there is any sympathy at all for the affected paki abduls
it is better not to propose such unworkable solutions.
SwamyG wrote:Can India setup refugee camps inside Indian territory? I know it is such an evil thought, but.....no pain no gain. Set few refugee camps across borders where we could have good control. Then let the news out; send it to AP, Reuters ityadi. Send the message through radio and TV; few thousands (or millions) people will make a run to these camps. Once we have the camps full we can stop accepting new "immigrants". Announce it again that we are full. Create the best living conditions, portray it in the media. If we can have BD and SL refugees, why not from Pakistan. A few are bound to escape these camps and wander into the hearts of India. So evil people are bound to enter this route. The exodus from Pakistan would make a news, no? What is the Cost Benefit Analysis for this scenario?
RajeshA wrote:chetak ji,chetak wrote:Some facts about the pakis.
They don't want any flood aid articles that says made in India, period.
They don't want Indian pilots flying over their territory,
or even Indian aid workers operating in their country.
They don't want their public to know that any of the aid comes from India.
If there is any sympathy at all for the affected paki abduls
it is better not to propose such unworkable solutions.
Poor Pakistanis don't know, what is good for them. If WKKs like me don't speak up, they'll all commit mass suicide. Tauba, Tauba! I can't take all the suffering in the reportage out of Pakistan.
India must force ghee into their mouths!
Where did say anything about people crossing or not crossing, eh? My ideas was to use this opportunity to do an image build exercise (and some psy-ops).chetak wrote: What makes you think that many such refugees have not already crossed over?
With a porous border, many enterprising abduls would have already hot footed it over the fence to where the grass is actually greener.
Dont forget what a mess paikhastan is after they let the afghan refugees in. One of our biggest goals at the time is also to raise our national performances such as GDP per capita, Human Development Index, Religious tolerance, employment ratio, literacy rate. Getting in the good for nothing, illiterate, radicalised, poor abduls makes me see all statistics going down again. I think this idea should be made to rest right here. EDIT: No offence to the wisdom of SwamyG though.SwamyG wrote:Where did say anything about people crossing or not crossing, eh? My ideas was to use this opportunity to do an image build exercise (and some psy-ops).chetak wrote: What makes you think that many such refugees have not already crossed over?
With a porous border, many enterprising abduls would have already hot footed it over the fence to where the grass is actually greener.
Fair enough SwamyG ji.SwamyG wrote: Rajesh: I don't find your explanation convincing enough. Yes it will be a precedence. But if we repeatedly do this, then the very fact that Pakistan is not able to manage itself will become evident to its citizens and the World, no?
I do not see how we are shooting ourselves on the foot. A great benefit would be to test how well equipped we ourselves are right? A camp with a few thousand will teach our emergency workers and health, social scientists and ityadi folks several things. We could impregnate (no pun intended) ideas into those refugees about pluralism, democracy and use it as psy-ops no? The next time we get hit by a cyclone or earthquake, we could transfer knowledge and experiences from such camps. And imagine the publicity.As such we are a poor country and also a big country, and in some corner or the other there is always some natural calamity. There is no paucity of opportunities for emergency workers to learn the basics.SwamyG wrote:A camp with a few thousand will teach our emergency workers and health, social scientists and ityadi folks several things.
Your trust in our ability to teach life-long brainwashed mango abduls pluralism and democracy is commendable. I lack that trust and also the ability to see its need. If at all, Pakistanis are to learn something from India, they should get some tips from Naxalites, and use their methods in Pakistan.SwamyG wrote:We could impregnate (no pun intended) ideas into those refugees about pluralism, democracy? The next time we get hit by a cyclone or earthquake, we could transfer knowledge and experiences from such camps.
As for psy-ops, what is supposed to be the intended audience?SwamyG wrote:and use it as psy-ops no
Saar, your ideas are welcome irrespective of whether I agree with them or not.SwamyG wrote:Maybe we could set the camps in such a way that Balochs or Sindhis would find easier to get into. It will be tough no doubt, I am not saying or implying it will be hunky dory, all I am doing is throwing an idea into the pot
Onlee if the ghee is later used to cremate Pakistaniyet, will I support you.RajeshA wrote: India must force ghee into their mouths!
All suggestions here are for cremation onlee!Pratyush wrote:Onlee if the ghee is later used to cremate Pakistaniyet, will I support you.RajeshA wrote: India must force ghee into their mouths!
krisna wrote:Flood-hitPakistanisBalochis, Afghans may cross to Iran-UNHCRDismal conditions in flood-hit areas in southwest Pakistan(baluchistan) could force thousands of Pakistanis and Afghan refugees to cross the border into Iran, the U.N. refugee agency warned on Thursday.Baluchistan province was the first to be hit by the country's worst floods,(wasn't it north west pakistan) initially displaced some 200,000 people. But the region has been largely ignored after more menacing waters raged in other parts of Pakistan.
Separatist nationalist militants have waged a low-scale insurgency for decades in Baluchistan, Pakistan's biggest but poorest province.The number of displaced people there is close to one million, and lack of assistance could make them head to neighbouring Iran, said Mengesha Kebede, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) representative in Pakistan.
"This has not happened yet ... but definitely everybody is aware of significant movement that is taking place," Kebede said, adding contingency plans there were underway.madrassa maths on display.Starting over a month ago, floods have killed at least 1,600 people, affected more than 18 million and inflicted nearly $43 billion worth of damage to infrastructure and agriculture, the mainstay of the economy.
hope something is done for balochis and help them form a separate nation.Hundreds of people have been killed in assassinations and bomb attacks in Baluchistan in recent years but there has been a relative lull in the thinly populated province of mountains and deserts in recent months.
Kebede called for scaled up relief activity in Baluchistan to prevent a major humanitarian disaster there.
"I feel it would be tragic if because of the lack of assistance, Pakistanis, Afghan refugees were to cross the border, seeking help and assistance in Iran," he said. "We need to ensure that Baluchistan is not forgotten."
The lack of a strong government response to a national disaster has allowed banned Islamist groups to fill in the vacuum, who are seen flaunting their flags at different camps. This could resonate with desperate people living on the edge and draw them closer to the militants.
A militant-plagued Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is now a psychological and emotional testing ground for both the local militants and American forces, each trying to carve out niches in the hearts and minds of people. While the Americans are seen as only trying to improve their image, the militants are sharpening potential recruits for future militant attacks.
This month the world finally woke up to the devastation and Indian aid worth $5 million was accepted by Pakistan. But this still needs to be stepped up. India is strategically the only country that can really help Pakistan, as it is in its interest to have a stable Pakistan that is free from terrorism, allowing good relations and a platform to resolve long standing issues. {One does not understand how India's help will help Pakistan rid itself of terrorism. Are bad relations because of no help from India ? What an argument !}
Pakistanis can make use of low-priced and quality Indian commodities, eliminating the need to import low grade Chinese and costly European products.
It may seem like a distant dream, but if 80 per cent of the trucks in Pakistan run on smuggled Indian tyres, then a peaceful Indo-Pak synergy will be beneficial for both. Fuel starved Pakistanis wouldn't mind Indian Oil!
This disaster can either strengthen or severely weaken Pakistan's fragile civilian government, also making Pakistanis even more sceptical or hostile, as 20 million survival stories resurface. No one can predict anything, as the only thing obvious is that nothing good will happen to Pakistan and the war against terrorism — unless global aid comes to salvage the sunken state of Pakistan.{And then what ? It will sink again. It will continue to sponsor terrorism against India, Afghanistan and the rest of the world. So, why not let it sink this time ?}