LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Aug 2010 19:52

@Manish_P & @nits - Oracle indeed !!

The first two prototypes are expected to have the "default colour Black" as you put it and the other helicopters that follow are expected to be in standard IAF Grey. The IAF Grey is actually quite difficult to spot against most terrain and sky conditions.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Aug 2010 20:04

@neerajb and @tanaji

Other minor points to also consider re the A-10 and its GAU-8 cannon vis a vis the canon on the LCH :

1) The forward momentum of the A-10 is more likely to be higher due to a) its larger weight b) its more powerful engines c) its higher attack speed

2) the standard practice is to fire the cannon in short bursts of 1 or 2 secs to prevent overheating (and maybe overkill

)

Above two points would seem to imply that while a heavy multi-barrelled rotary cannon may not have much negative impact on a relatively heavy fixed wing aircraft, it might well be a considerable factor on a light weight, rotor driven helicopter, especially in a hover or low speed chase mode

Would like to request the Gurus to clarify on this (if OT then pls. move to the appropriate thread)

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Aug 2010 20:13

@ Hari Nair

Thank you Sir !!

I should have known

.. the fancy camo is best kept only for airshows eh

Ah well i guess i will wait and see if some photoshop expert can help me out..

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 30 Aug 2010 21:36

Manish_P wrote:@neerajb and @tanaji

Other minor points to also consider re the A-10 and its GAU-8 cannon vis a vis the canon on the LCH :

1) The forward momentum of the A-10 is more likely to be higher due to a) its larger weight b) its more powerful engines c) its higher attack speed

2) the standard practice is to fire the cannon in short bursts of 1 or 2 secs to prevent overheating (and maybe overkill )

Above two points would seem to imply that while a heavy multi-barrelled rotary cannon may not have much negative impact on a relatively heavy fixed wing aircraft, it might well be a considerable factor on a light weight, rotor driven helicopter, especially in a hover or low speed chase mode

Would like to request the Gurus to clarify on this (if OT then pls. move to the appropriate thread)

The A-10's GAU-8 Avenger cannon is perhaps the most powerful and heaviest mounted on an aircraft (barring the C-130 gunship's cannons). It fires rounds with core of DU (Depleted Uranium) that can inflict serious damage on the softer parts of a Main Battle Tank. That cannon has not been used on any other aircaft and in a sense, its a very niche weapon, definitely way above the standard benchmark of an aircraft cannon. For a helicopter, perhaps the heaviest is the Shipunov 2A42 30 mm cannon mounted on the Mi-28 and on the Ka-50 atttack helicopters. That weapon is a derived from the BMP-2 IFV, has a muzzle velocity of around 1000 m/s and claimed maximum range up to 3000 m in certain configurations.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Aug 2010 22:43

Hari Nair wrote:@ Raja Bose & @ Bala Vignesh - Thanks for appreciating the IAF’s Sarang Team. At the very definite risk of going OT – the first team was directed to evolve on fast track by the then Chief of Air Staff - Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy (the concept of an ALH display team was his brainchild)– it was quite a bit of struggle since our early attempts at displays were awkward. We were under ASTE, AF (Bangalore) in those days and were lucky to have a nearby disused airstrip available to use extensively to evolve our pattern, with ASTE’s resources and an understanding Commandant. IAF’s SKAT (Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team) helped us with some very critical insights into display flying. That, coupled with some very patient and good encouragement by key senior IAF officers made it possible. The pilots were hand-picked, were an aggressive bunch of good fliers willing to collectively analyse, learn and improve. Subsequent teams have proved no less and that’s what makes the Sarang so good.

Hari Nair saare,
Don't take me bad sir, but this is one of the best diplomatic answers i've seen in my life..
I was hoping that you would be able to give us insights(only if its unclassified) into how a maneouvre is developed and how it is perfected, et all?

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 31 Aug 2010 11:58

rohitvats wrote:
Neshant wrote:Does any platform in the airforce or army have a mini-guns mounted on choppers? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ELhy4_0hM

Its a hell of an intimidating weapon.
We do have instances of door-guns on Indian choppers - but these are the MMG as used by IA. The gun in the video is a Gatling gun....We don't have a similar gun in IAF Service.

Its a pity. This gun looks like it can solve up to 5000 problems a minute. I'd hate to be sitting in a tank or IFV with hot steel like that raining from the sky.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 31 Aug 2010 15:18

Neshant wrote:Its a pity. This gun looks like it can solve up to 5000 problems a minute. I'd hate to be sitting in a tank or IFV with hot steel like that raining from the sky.

If one has watched "Black Hawk Down", they've shown what it can do to a street full of mobs and in quick time and it was mounted on a helo like Little Bird. Wow...how I just love the sound and lethality of it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2010 16:15

Neshant wrote:[

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ELhy4_0hM

Its a hell of an intimidating weapon.

We do have instances of door-guns on Indian choppers - but these are the MMG as used by IA. The gun in the video is a Gatling gun....We don't have a similar gun in IAF Service.

Its a pity. This gun looks like it can solve up to 5000 problems a minute. I'd hate to be sitting in a tank or IFV with hot steel like that raining from the sky.

That is a very small caliber weapon - it won't scratch a tank. You need heavy metal to get a tank...and the barrel is barely a yard long.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2010 16:17

Dmurphy wrote:If one has watched "Black Hawk Down"

That was a classic case of "Operation successful, but patient died". That Mogadishu op was a disaster for the US.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Aug 2010 16:47

Shiv, your posts are injurious to the health of the computer screen.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 31 Aug 2010 17:07

shiv wrote:
Neshant wrote:[

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ELhy4_0hM

Its a hell of an intimidating weapon.

We do have instances of door-guns on Indian choppers - but these are the MMG as used by IA. The gun in the video is a Gatling gun....We don't have a similar gun in IAF Service.

Its a pity. This gun looks like it can solve up to 5000 problems a minute. I'd hate to be sitting in a tank or IFV with hot steel like that raining from the sky.
That is a very small caliber weapon - it won't scratch a tank. You need heavy metal to get a tank...and the barrel is barely a yard long.

Yes. That is a minigun. It uses 7.62x51mm NATO rounds so it will hardly have any effect on an IFV leave alone a heavily armourded tank.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2010 18:00

Seriously Pratyush but OT. I read a very interesting book that analysed 6 battles in great detail to see what led to their outcomes. One of them was the Mogadishu story. It was a battle of very high tech versus raw meat power. And like klingons or morons or whatever baddies in movies are called the Somalis kept getting mowed down and kept coming - apart from other unexpected cock-ups that neutralised technology.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 31 Aug 2010 19:38

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:@ Raja Bose & @ Bala Vignesh - Thanks for appreciating the IAF’s Sarang Team. At the very definite risk of going OT – the first team was directed to evolve on fast track by the then Chief of Air Staff - Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy (the concept of an ALH display team was his brainchild)– it was quite a bit of struggle since our early attempts at displays were awkward. We were under ASTE, AF (Bangalore) in those days and were lucky to have a nearby disused airstrip available to use extensively to evolve our pattern, with ASTE’s resources and an understanding Commandant. IAF’s SKAT (Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team) helped us with some very critical insights into display flying. That, coupled with some very patient and good encouragement by key senior IAF officers made it possible. The pilots were hand-picked, were an aggressive bunch of good fliers willing to collectively analyse, learn and improve. Subsequent teams have proved no less and that’s what makes the Sarang so good.
Hari Nair saare,
Don't take me bad sir, but this is one of the best diplomatic answers i've seen in my life..
I was hoping that you would be able to give us insights(only if its unclassified) into how a maneouvre is developed and how it is perfected, et all?

Well Bala - I'll try and describe it some more ..

A display manoeuvre needs to look good as seen by the target audience - that's the fundamental principle. Which means if you carry out a very complex and difficult manoeuvre perfectly, but doesn't appear good from the target audience point-of-view and only adds to the 'yawn factor', then its no good.

Sometimes, the simplest of manoeuvres, when presented at the appropriate view angle to the audience, looks elegant. So, the perspective of the target audience is very different from what it is from the cockpit. That’s the primary reason to choose a manoeuvre. However, that doesn’t mean that all display manoeuvres are simple, dead-easy stuff.

Then, there is formation flying and coordination - absolutely no substitute for practice and skill. The display pilots, each one of them has to be skilled and comfortable with the aircraft. In that context, helicopters are notorious because they are fundamentally unstable flying machines and traditional articulated or teetering rotors have problems of limited control power – get those helicopters in certain attitudes and you are in serious trouble as you will essentially run out of controls with possible catastrophic effects. There is also the problem of control response – articulated & teetering rotors have some delays in control response, which makes it very difficult to get up close in formation as the Sarang. So the fundamental recipe to the whole helicopter display thing is high-offset hingeless (also called “rigid”) rotors with very good control power, good control response and engines that give a generous power margin.

At some point during the whole process of repeated practices, a collective, synergistic skill set emerges and the whole team starts flying as a single ‘networked’ entity – when a team leader rolls into a manoeuvre, he expects each team member to be in a specific point in space and similarly, as the team members move into those points in space they expect the team leader to roll into that manoeuvre. That goes down to minute details – such as rates of rolling into that manoeuvre, the specific points during which R/T calls are exchanged between members, power and speed changes and so on.

So the secret is – that there is no secret! No techno-wizardry, no safe simulators, no CAD to generate nice ready-made manoeuvres or any other shortcuts at all, I’m afraid to disappoint some of you. You just need to get up there and get up close and practice. It’s just pure, raw skill, coordination, synergistic team-work and capable aircraft!

And of course, there has to be good smoke – smoke from the aircraft adds tremendously to the effect. That’s why you see all display teams having that.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 31 Aug 2010 21:42

Dmurphy wrote:
Neshant wrote:Its a pity. This gun looks like it can solve up to 5000 problems a minute. I'd hate to be sitting in a tank or IFV with hot steel like that raining from the sky.
If one has watched "Black Hawk Down", they've shown what it can do to a street full of mobs and in quick time and it was mounted on a helo like Little Bird. Wow...how I just love the sound and lethality of it.

Well in these politically correct times, perhaps non-lethal weapons need to be the norm! Any ideas, anybody??

nits · Post by **nits** » 31 Aug 2010 21:45

Hari Nair wrote:@Manish_P & @nits - Oracle indeed !! The first two prototypes are expected to have the "default colour Black" as you put it and the other helicopters that follow are expected to be in standard IAF Grey. The IAF Grey is actually quite difficult to spot against most terrain and sky conditions.

Thanks sir; some more on color front

Does Tiger on LCH has some specific meaning? also i was just thinking how will Tiger look on grey color scheme...

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 31 Aug 2010 21:48

shiv wrote:Seriously Pratyush but OT. I read a very interesting book that analysed 6 battles in great detail to see what led to their outcomes. One of them was the Mogadishu story. It was a battle of very high tech versus raw meat power. And like klingons or morons or whatever baddies in movies are called the Somalis kept getting mowed down and kept coming - apart from other unexpected cock-ups that neutralised technology.

The movie is quite accurate - it appears the chap who shot down the Black Hawk was either an Al Qaeda operative or was trained in some manner by them. He fired an RPG at the chopper’s tail rotor and shot it right off and when the chopper was in an OGE hover near those buildings– perhaps the worst nightmare for any helicopter pilot!

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 31 Aug 2010 21:49

Hari Sir,

First of all thank you for your patience reply to all out question, however novice they were... It is our privilege to have you on the forum...

I hope you will not mind if I ask another newbie question which to some extent might be OT also...

LCH is a stealthy helicopter which would have provided our country with lot of insights as far stealth is concerned... I just wanted to know without any prior experience, were all the tech required, were developed with indigenous efforts or some foreign collaboration was sought? Also, does stealth in LCH comprise shape and RAM as well? If yes, can the tech be used for proposed AMCA/MCA/NGFA?

Also, since you are connected with HAL, would like to know about the status of FGFA/PAKFA which HAL is supposed to build with Sukhoi and our contribution in the same (as this will silence lot of critics who claim our contribution will be restricted to funding and license production) if it is not classified...

Thanks

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 31 Aug 2010 21:54

Hari Nair wrote: Well in these politically correct times, perhaps non-lethal weapons need to be the norm! Any ideas, anybody??

Sir, you probably meant that as a joke but in case you did not, I do not understand why even in PC times, would non-lethal weapons be useful on a military helicopter. As far as as I understand non-lethal weapons are useful only for dispersing angry mobs of civilians or taking down criminals. What use would they be in a war?

And sorry to be late in this but, Welcome to BRF! It is an honour to have you here. Now if you could only manage to persuade your other pilot colleagues to join up as well...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2010 22:16

Hari Nair wrote:Well in these politically correct times, perhaps non-lethal weapons need to be the norm! Any ideas, anybody??

Well one non lethal weapon would be to throw 5 + 20 million dollars at the Pakis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Aug 2010 22:19

Hari Nair wrote: The movie is quite accurate - it appears the chap who shot down the Black Hawk was either an Al Qaeda operative or was trained in some manner by them. He fired an RPG at the chopper’s tail rotor and shot it right off and when the chopper was in an OGE hover near those buildings– perhaps the worst nightmare for any helicopter pilot!

What happened after that was the problem. The Hummer or whatever it was (I can't recall) that was part of the rescue team was too broad for Mogadishu roads and when one was knocked out it blocked the road and prevented those behind it from moving forward or backing out. And men with guns and RPGs had a ball.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Aug 2010 23:38

Hari Nair sir. I must once again state that your presence on this thread has elevated it to a very different level.

I had 2 questions to ask you. One is regarding the IR signature of the LCH. I had expected initially that the LCH would go with a Black Hole Ocarina (Ocarina means multiple exhausts) type IR suppressing system but instead what appears to be the case is that a Black Hole IRSS has been used where the hot parts of the engine have been optically blocked with internal bends leading to the exhaust duct facing upwards and out of direct line of sight from the ground (from where most MANPADS will be fired).

Can you shed more light on the design principles, what guided the designers in this case (weight and cost compromises or performance issues)?

We have also had discussions on this earlier..link to our earlier discussions. As you can see, you were well known on BRF even then.

Also, I read that HAL sub-contracted the building of the RCS model of the LCH to some engineering firm in Bangalore. Can you shed more light on how rigorous the stealth design has been and what advantages the LCH has visually and RCS wise against any other attack helicopter or even the Dhruv WSI ?

If the topic is too sensitive to discuss, then its ok we can leave it at this.

Thank you very much for your time.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Sep 2010 02:26

What happened after that was the problem. The Hummer or whatever it was (I can't recall) that was part of the rescue team was too broad for Mogadishu roads and when one was knocked out it blocked the road and prevented those behind it from moving forward or backing out. And men with guns and RPGs had a ball.

Shiv I don't think so - They could always move even if they were moving inthe wrong direction.
If they were unable to move they would be 100s of dead

There were a lot of mistakes and it would be OT here.

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 01 Sep 2010 05:54

Hari Nair Sir,
Deeply appreciate your contribution to this thread and forum. Since i have an inherent interest in all things related to flight safety, I have a question regarding the ALH. What exactly happened, and what may have been the cause during the Sarang practice session of the last Aero- India that resulted in a fatality? And were there similarities in flight profile to the Ecuador incident? Was it engine related, transmission or human factor? Thanks very much.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Sep 2010 06:03

Surya wrote:
Shiv I don't think so - They could always move even if they were moving inthe wrong direction.
If they were unable to move they would be 100s of dead

There were a lot of mistakes and it would be OT here.

Yes there were a lot of mistakes - but I can't recall the exact details. 100s of Somalis were killed but I think Blackhawk down was an echandee retrieval movie.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Sep 2010 08:20

shiv wrote:100s of Somalis were killed but I think Blackhawk down was an echandee retrieval movie.

1000s were killed as against only 19 American GIs!

Mods: My last OT post, I promise.

BTW, whats echandee?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 01 Sep 2010 08:33

Dmurphy wrote:BTW, whats echandee?

OT, but it is http://sites.google.com/site/brfdiction ... sary/h/h-d

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Sep 2010 09:05

Dmurphy wrote:
shiv wrote:100s of Somalis were killed but I think Blackhawk down was an echandee retrieval movie.
1000s were killed as against only 19 American GIs!

Mods: My last OT post, I promise.

BTW, whats echandee?

The US claimed about 800 Somalis dead - i.e O.8 thousands
The Somalis claimed 300 dead - 0.3 thousands
The US left
The Somali rebels still rule

Check human casualties in Vietnam and let us take the discussion to the "Countering technology in warfare" thread if you wish to talk about it further

echandee is "Honor and Dignity"

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Sep 2010 09:38

shiv wrote: Yes there were a lot of mistakes - but I can't recall the exact details. 100s of Somalis were killed but I think Blackhawk down was an echandee retrieval movie.

the mogadishu operation : blackhawk down the movie = charge of the light brigade : tennyson's poem (since ridiculed by GB shaw

)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_ ... ht_Brigade

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2010 09:45

a good example of maoist dictum of "hold the enemy close" in a suitable place to negate his tech advantages. the US learnt something from that and in Falluja did some sort of methodical infantry heavy cleanouts rather than a deep strike but again with mixed results. insurgents hid in basements and abandoned houses, sleeping during the day and coming out at night. eventually again a tactical defeat for US as the increasing human toll led to ops being called off. even though marines had enough firepower to flatten the whole town, the ROE would not permit that.

I guess thats where investment in small arms, portable sensors, RWS (remote weapons stations), SF, infantry, UAVs pays off vs the raptors and tridents.

in dien ben phu, 1000s of vietnamese fighters used the cover of tree canopy to carry and bicycle and pull tons of ammo and arms and fuel to the divisions surrounding the french positions...even heavy cannons were pulled @ 1 mile a day over the hills and rivers...

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Sep 2010 09:47

Watch from 7.25 onwards. The attack heli can be quite useful in such scenarios.
Also Mr.Hari can the Attack heli if attacked using stingers (somewhat longer distance) can hide just by taking cover behind a building. Say it's at a height and sees missile beings fired. Can the pilot immediately reduce the height to get behind the building and save himself? Or the Flares are the only solution to such a threat.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2010 09:48

I think manpads are smart enough to remember where the hot target 'vanished' and keep going and pick it up again unless some unusual degree of cover is obtained.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Sep 2010 10:21

uddu wrote: Watch from 7.25 onwards. The attack heli can be quite useful in such scenarios.
Also Mr.Hari can the Attack heli if attacked using stingers (somewhat longer distance) can hide just by taking cover behind a building. Say it's at a height and sees missile beings fired. Can the pilot immediately reduce the height to get behind the building and save himself? Or the Flares are the only solution to such a threat.

Here is an image of the Lahore skyline. Count the number of buildings behind which a helo can hide versus the number of buildings on which people with manpads can fire are random passing helos.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/13555 ... ab53_b.jpg

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 01 Sep 2010 11:13

deleted so thoughts can remain conservative!

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Sep 2010 13:35

shiv wrote:echandee is "Honor and Dignity"

Hehe...I actually looked up on google, "echandee" and "H&E" related to helos before i asked here. Got nothing.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 01 Sep 2010 18:50

A humble request: Can we please reduce the # of speculative designs on this thread? Electrified fire-engine fed water jets, tungsten tipped gas emitting bullets, anti-submarine gatling guns, drugged bullets, anti-submarine trained sharks with freakin' laser beams attached to their heads etc. are best left for Bollywood movies.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 01 Sep 2010 21:02

deleted.
please make such queries in the speculative tech thread (whateveritsnameis) and not here.
thank you.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 01 Sep 2010 22:57

deleted.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Sep 2010 00:21

Hari Nair Sir, if you were to write a critique on the LCH, what would it look like?

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 02 Sep 2010 19:14

negi wrote:disc area and loading numbers are already out there, I could not find the blade area for LCH (need the chord width).

Negi, believe you me, all the figures available in the public domain are more than enough for anybody to make back-of-the-envelope estimates to compare the LCH with other helicopters. If you desire anything more, I'm afraid you will need to contact us in person further details.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 02 Sep 2010 19:24

Manish_P wrote:@ Hari Nair

Thank you Sir !!

I should have known .. the fancy camo is best kept only for airshows eh

Ah well i guess i will wait and see if some photoshop expert can help me out..

Not really, disruptive patterns were (and still are) used on some aircraft. Its especially very effective when the aircraft is stationary against matching terrain (parked on the ground). However, when the aircraft with such a pattern is flying, the disruptive pattern often ‘flickers’ against the terrain it overflies and it can sometimes actually be spotted faster.