China Military Watch

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 31 Aug 2010 09:14

And how is that relevant to the current situation with respect to China? Is Montana expecting India to cede territory to China, in the name of national interest? Leave India out of these sick geopolitical, geostrategic games. If China has some issue with the US( despite the sucking up that's been going on for 30 years) tell the US to meet it at some mutually agreed upon place, for a nice boxing match.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 31 Aug 2010 09:27

Varoon Shekhar wrote:And how is that relevant to the current situation with respect to China? Is Montana expecting India to cede territory to China, in the name of national interest?

You asked if I would advice China the same. I answered, someone did.

Manishw wrote:
Which Indian's do you specifically have in mind? Fifth columnists? or somebody else? Pls be more specific.

All of India. "The Game" is yours to win or lose. No one in the world today could "beat down" India. China can try. But if India "lose the game", I don't think it will be because of China.

Manishw wrote:
Anyway my 2 cents says that we will not be a superpower(heck we might have to downsize) until we have the capacity to take the fight into enemy territory as well as protect the interests of smaller countries which are in danger of falling into Chinese orbit.

I disagree. China didn't grow because she launched a punitive expedition into Japan or Russia. She grow because she pretended to be nice to everyone. (read America)

Manishw wrote:
Well I wanted to hear your comment's on India and china's Nuclear capabilities.My thoughts very briefly Russia is/will not be a match for china conventionally but china won't dare touch them.why? Nukes.In the online poll recently the Chinese are talking of only limited war. Why? because nukes would get involved? Nukes are a great balancer,
though would like your opinion about it.

Sure. Just look at North Korea. China is plenty sacred of Indian nukes. That's why they will try to keep all conflict, incidents, low intensity. Unless you suggest India use nukes first?

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 31 Aug 2010 09:32

Guys, don't feed the troll. Our Montanaji here exemplifies the Chinese. Mao led Nehru to believe that China is just another poor country like India and China has no reason to attack India. Montanaji is trying pull a Mao on BR, I wish him luck. But Indians of today are wiser than 1962. India must try hard to put a war machine in place to **** off the Chinese, we are seeing some pieces of it. Time will tell whether we did a good job at it or not. Meanwhile for Montanaji, I have a doha - jaban par ram, bagal mein chura.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 31 Aug 2010 09:45

TonyMontana wrote:
All of India. "The Game" is yours to win or lose. No one in the world today could "beat down" India. China can try. But if India "lose the game", I don't think it will be because of China.

Sir this is going beyond my capacity of debate.

TonyMontana wrote:
I disagree. China didn't grow because she launched a punitive expedition into Japan or Russia. She grow because she pretended to be nice to everyone. (read America)

There is a great difference between 'having the capacity' and doing something with it.I guess you are selectively misquoting things.Please take the time to read what you quote.

TonyMontana wrote:
Sure. Just look at North Korea. China is plenty sacred of Indian nukes. That's why they will try to keep all conflict, incidents, low intensity. Unless you suggest India use nukes first?

Perhaps a feeble light of intelligent debate is being kindled somewhere but far - far from being an actual debate.So at least the chinese are scared of something?Low yield warhead's come to mind.Scrapping no first use in deed and not in word's come to mind.Having the will to use them comes to mind.The great balancer being nukes today comes to mind.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 31 Aug 2010 09:45

So if China is so practical in its outlook, then it should not concern China if one day Delhi finally takes the nutty decision to put to effect the retaking of parts of Northern Territories and rest of Kashmir as demanded by the Parliamentary resolution and leave Aksai Chin at status quo for now. All China should care is protection of its share of economic interests, if India is willing to be the dance partner just as the US-China relation is now.

But, then this has not happened and it is not India's fault that is the case. So why is China so stuck up with TSP which does not promise as big a potential market as India does. All China is getting is access to mineral resources unless it is of the rare variety. Shorter access to the gulf region can also be arranged under Indian control isn't it, at a price if agreeable to the other side.

Nothing so far indicates that China is serious about just maintaining a fair and peaceful trade relation as you seem to claim here. Where is the evidence for that ? All that you prescribe here Tony, sound like the standard reading from American emissaries to Delhi mandarins.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 31 Aug 2010 09:50

TonyMontana wrote: 5)Make Pakistan irrelevent. The thought driving China in my opinion is fear not greed(ie world domination). China fears losing access to the Indian Ocean. If 1 and 3 are done well enough, why can't China partner up with a stable India and build a high speed rail through India instead of Pakistan to access the Indian Ocean?

Tony, I guess you are missing the whole point and is totally overlooking the geography. How is it possible to make Pakistan irrelevant from the Chinese point? When it possible to create a secure trade route via Pakistan to the ME and can also utilize it as its strategic pawn in Afghan and for the future control of the oil lane in the ME why would China destabilize its interest in Pakistan. Look at the other point even after hurting India's core interest and sensitivities, the India - China trade continues to grow with a trade balance in favor of China. So even after having a not so stable relation with India, China still continues to gain. They are advantageous in having a strategic defense relation with Pakistan and a prospering economic relation with India. Who will ever throw away their trump cards.

India will take an extra mile in stabilizing the relation with China the day China stop nuclear proliferation, the day it stops the overt and covert support extended to Pakistan militarily, the day China respects India's sensitivities and core interest. I hope you are taking this effort to harmonize relation between India and China on a Chinese thread too. Because two open hands are needed to 'shake hand'.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 31 Aug 2010 10:17

hey montana why are you wasting your time on this forum amigo. get the hell out to Montana man.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Aug 2010 13:05

Tony you're wasting your time. You're asking average Indians to be far-sighted and rational, that's impossible. Am I saying that the average Chinese is far-sighted and rational? HECK NO. Go take a stroll on Chinese message boards and you'll see that they're just as petty, chauvinistic, and irrational as the people you converse with on this board.

The difference is in the government styles. When China ceded territories to Russia, the average Chinese person's response is no less indignant than the Indians here over the idea of ceding territories to China. But what did the CCP do about it? Nothing. They just let the people piss and moan all the want, and waited for 6-7 years for their wages to double and forget all about it. They then wait for 20 more years and let the peaceful development with Russia to allow this growth to continue, and the people don't even care about it anymore. The only way for the CCP to go out of power is through a revolution, and nobody's gonna revolt over border disputes when their wallets are fattening by the day.

The Indian government can't afford that. In a couple of years when the next round of elections roll around, people would still remember the "shame" of this display of "weakness"(count how many times this word's been mentioned by the Indians here in describing their own government), and whoever was responsible will be voted out of office. Sure, the Indian people and the Chinese people are all the same intrinsically, and the Indian leaders are just as capable as Chinese leaders, but they're subject to different rules. While both Indian and Chinese leaders are driven by power and greed, and more power and greed for their children, the Chinese leaders may select to hand the power and money to their children in a more prosperous China, while the Indian leaders would have to settle for handing the power and money to their children in a less prosperous India. After all, it's better than being ousted from power and not having anything to hand down period.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 31 Aug 2010 13:10

DavidD wrote:Tony you're wasting your time. You're asking average Indians to be far-sighted and rational, that's impossible. Am I saying that the average Chinese is far-sighted and rational? HECK NO. Go take a stroll on Chinese message boards and you'll see that they're just as petty, chauvinistic, and irrational as the people you converse with on this board.

Sir have you entertained the idea of taking a hike instead of gracing us petty, chauvinistic, and irrational people here or 50 cents per post is something you really need.

jai · Post by **jai** » 31 Aug 2010 13:24

My two penny says "If you accept arrogance and get bullied once, be prepared to face it all your life". Just because we have kept quite on Tibet, Aksai Chin and POK - we are facing the current situation (Of course, decades of neglect of our security preparedness and infrastructure building in border areas is to be equally - if not more to be blamed - thanks to the Nehru mindset that has plagued all govts since independence).

We have to get more assertive as a country - if Dragons want to play bullish in POK, we should officially demand that they vacate Aksai Chin and free Tibet, similarly the moment Musharaf's of our west mention the K word, we should demand that they return POK to India and free the faithful in the Baloch lands ....we need to create our own pressure points and press these when pressurized over anything from these guys, and by the way, AC and POK are captured Indian Territories so this is a legitimate demand...we are the only onces in the world not asking for our own territory back.

We will have to match the ranting to keep both in check...the more we play the gentleman, the more we would be jointly attacked. In today's time, there are no friends, only interests....we have to do what it takes to protect ours.

We also need to create strategic choke points - create a parallel canal system in the Kashmir Valley to divert all river water to mainland Indian states (during monsoons to capture excess water, and to choke musharaffs during war/tensions) ....create our own pearl of strings in Indian ocean, create a massive network of roads and railway across all our borders at any cost, support the friendly faithful south of Afghans etc etc ....as brazenly as the others.....nothing else would work !

This needs to now happen on a war footing, MMS and co still seem to be in a slumber....in my view, we are at our weakest right now....we will not be so 10 years from now...so the next ten years would be crucial.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 31 Aug 2010 14:03

^^^
India's weakness is more political than military, if the bunch in power consists of yellow bellied dhimmis, no amount of weapons can overcome that. So the only way out for India is for a ultra-nationalist govt. to take over from this regime of dhimmis, until that happens, dlagon or not dlagon, the future of the Indic civilization will be grim.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Aug 2010 14:29

^^^Sadly, I have to agree with the cheeni lifafas on this one.

India is screwed bigtime.

We have neither strength nor will to resist a cheeni advance on all our flanks (west - POK, TSP, east - Burma & AP, North - Nepal, Aksai chin, Tibet and south - Lanka).

In the past, it was decisive cheeni jhapads like the one in '62 - so shocking that even the nehru-gandhi clan couldn't divert or bury it successfully despite herculean efforts in that direction - that woke up a sleeping Yindia and forced some hard political + financial backing to basic, long overdue military modernization. That saved our backsides in '65 and again, perhaps in '71.

After the '71 decisiveness, iot was amriki sabre rattling with n-weapons + cheeni decisions to proliferate WMD tech to TSP that spurred our sleeping establishment to go down the new clear path ourselves. Thank gawd for that, else we would've long borne repeated 2-front wars from cheen+TSP.

And now, in 2010, thanks again to cheeni sabre-rattling, encirclements and other such niceties - we'll get yet another powerful jhapad which, I hope will wake up our establishment enough to do the needful in terms of further beefing up mil spend and preparedness.

Only jhapads and crises - not history or common sense - seem to spur our establishment to do the right thing. Only.

I now can only hope the next jhapad won't lead to permanent loss of territory (Tawang) and will be short and decisive, a la '62. However, can;t help but note that the loss of the northern areas to cheena is all but permanent now, just like the loss of tibet was.

No jai hos this time. Jai Hu only.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 31 Aug 2010 14:59

jai veru here i agree with you man and hari seldon also. It is depressing to hear this but it is true what you guys are saying. We need a guy like Modi at the center with some balls to kick India in it it,s musharraf and wake her up man or we are in for more territorial loss or worse

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 31 Aug 2010 15:20

China military budget rises sharply: defense ministry

Taipei, Aug. 31 (CNA) China increased its defense budget in 2010 by 7.5 percent to US$78 billion

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 31 Aug 2010 15:26

Return of the Dragon

Gen JFR Jacob, the hero of the 1971 India Pakistan war, warns that unless India wakes up to the recent developments in Gilgit Baltistan, it may be too late.

Any Chinese move through the Karakoram Pass will threaten our troops in Siachen and our base at Thoise. In the contingency of any future conflict with the Chinese, new areas of conflict in Ladakh will open up. I served in Ladakh for two years immediately after the Chinese invasion of 1962, and it also fell under my purview subsequently as Chief of Staff and Army Commander covering the northeast. During this period there were many incursions and incidents.

There is no Soviet Union with its Treaty of Friendship to help us now [in 1971, the Soviets moved 40 divisions to the Xinjiang and seven to the Manchurian borders to deter the Chinese]. We have to rely on our own resources. We must show that we have the will and wherewithal to meet the emerging contingencies.

It is high time the government reappraises the emerging situation and puts in place the measures required to meet the developments, before it is too late.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 31 Aug 2010 15:52

thanks JimmyJ I posted few weeks earlier on this forum that war is coming to India sooner than we think and this article by general jacob whom I have followed since the bangladesh war just about confirms my worst fears

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 31 Aug 2010 17:20

Again, China ceding territory to Russia has nothing to do with India, and India will not use it as an historical model to base its behaviour or policy on, and definitely not officially. If China has some trouble with Russia, the two should pick a spot somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, and have a nice boxing match.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Aug 2010 17:33

X-Post (my own):

On the POK/NA and PLA thing, did anyone read this news:

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=13340

From the same:

The Army has received confirmation that China deployed an infantry battalion of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) at the 15,397-feet Khunjerab Pass on the Karakoram highway this month for the security of its workers engaged in building a railroad. This railroad will eventually connect Xinjiang to the port of Gwadar in Balochistan, Pakistan. The Khunjerab Pass straddles the border between China and PoK and is 272 km from Gilgit in the Northern Areas. This PLA deployment is expected to be raised to brigade strength (3,000 troops) as work on the railroad progresses in the Northern Areas.

The military assessment, based on intelligence inputs, suggests that the PLA battalion is involved in providing security to Chinese Han workers building the high speed rail and road link to Gwadar and ports at Pasni and Omara on the Makran coast.

“The deployment may be to support its infrastructure in the Northern Areas in the long run but the immediate issue is the possibility of Pakistan-based jihadis linking up with the largely Muslim population of the sensitive Xinjiang province,” said a senior official. The PLA keeps the area under strict control to avoid infiltration from the Northern Areas.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 31 Aug 2010 17:37

"Tony you're wasting your time. You're asking average Indians to be far-sighted and rational, that's impossible. Am I saying that the average Chinese is far-sighted and rational? HECK NO. Go take a stroll on Chinese message boards and you'll see that they're just as petty, chauvinistic, and irrational as the people you converse with on this board."

Leaving aside your characterisation of posters in this forum, what did you think of that video link that was posted about the 'superpower rivalry' between India and China? It was from an IBN live discussion. To repeat, one of the things that was mentioned more than once, was this type of discussion would not even take place in China, because there is a lot of criticism of the Indian government, including the handling of the Commonwealth Games.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 31 Aug 2010 18:54

China's 'intentions' being closely monitored: India

NEW DELHI: India on Tuesday said China has been showing "more than the normal interest" in the Indian Ocean affairs and its "intentions" are being closely monitored. "The Government of India has come to realise that China has been showing more than the normal interest in the Indian Ocean affairs. So we are closely monitoring the Chinese intentions", external affairs minister SM Krishna said in the Lok Sabha.

"We are closely monitoring the developments in the Indian Ocean," he said and assured the House that "appropriate action and measures" would be taken to safeguard India's territorial integrity and the welfare of its fishermen.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Aug 2010 21:38

DavidD wrote:Tony you're wasting your time. You're asking average Indians to be far-sighted and rational, that's impossible. Am I saying that the average Chinese is far-sighted and rational? HECK NO. Go take a stroll on Chinese message boards and you'll see that they're just as petty, chauvinistic, and irrational as the people you converse with on this board.

The difference is in the government styles. When China ceded territories to Russia, the average Chinese person's response is no less indignant than the Indians here over the idea of ceding territories to China. But what did the CCP do about it? Nothing. They just let the people piss and moan all the want, and waited for 6-7 years for their wages to double and forget all about it. They then wait for 20 more years and let the peaceful development with Russia to allow this growth to continue, and the people don't even care about it anymore. The only way for the CCP to go out of power is through a revolution, and nobody's gonna revolt over border disputes when their wallets are fattening by the day.

The Indian government can't afford that. In a couple of years when the next round of elections roll around, people would still remember the "shame" of this display of "weakness"(count how many times this word's been mentioned by the Indians here in describing their own government), and whoever was responsible will be voted out of office. Sure, the Indian people and the Chinese people are all the same intrinsically, and the Indian leaders are just as capable as Chinese leaders, but they're subject to different rules. While both Indian and Chinese leaders are driven by power and greed, and more power and greed for their children, the Chinese leaders may select to hand the power and money to their children in a more prosperous China, while the Indian leaders would have to settle for handing the power and money to their children in a less prosperous India. After all, it's better than being ousted from power and not having anything to hand down period.

David ... we might be "indignant" as you say ... Could you please point me to some nation of higher mortals from whom we should learn?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 31 Aug 2010 21:58

If they complete that highway through northern kashmir then one day we might lose rest of the area in kashmir .
And that applies to the kashmiris as well .
They're making chess like moves ,while GoI is only monitoring their activity. IMHO ,even a common SDRE kew that chinese will enter there and GoI had let it happen.
They are closely monitoring everything but not doing worthy efforts .
The ball is in our court, and the goal should be to teach the chinese a lesson they never forget . Our options arent limited,but responsible people in GoI dont like to see out of the box .

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 31 Aug 2010 23:54

Samay wrote:The goal should be to teach the chinese a lesson they never forget . Our options arent limited,but responsible people in GoI dont like to see out of the box .

What option do we have at this moment? Diplomatic protest can't take cut the ice. GoI won't look at downgrading trade relationship especially as it is a double edged sword. Cooperation at international forums like WTO will continue as that is the only area of proper interactions towards achieving a common goal. What I feel is we must let them dig their own grave. US has entered the South East Asian region after China attempted to own the sea. With the Chenon incident the US may have gained more acceptance in South Korea and Japan. What is left is the ME and Central Asia.

JMT

PrithviRajChauhan · Post by **PrithviRajChauhan** » 01 Sep 2010 00:51

Thats a good and open question "What option do we have ?" We cannot take Military action against Pakistan, so lets forget that against China. We cannot put trade embargo against China as its a double edge sword. We all know ,diplomatic gestures hardly crack a nut. IMHO, I would say breaking of Pakistan and for the time being entangling of US in the region is the only option left. Pukes needs to disintegrated so that Gwadar becomes the part of independent Balochistan and India regains the POK. I understand that its easier said then done but that is the only option that I see which to some extent is still feasible. Directly confronting China is a no win scenario.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 01 Sep 2010 02:47

DavidD wrote: Tony you're wasting your time. You're asking average Indians to be far-sighted and rational, that's impossible. Am I saying that the average Chinese is far-sighted and rational? HECK NO. Go take a stroll on Chinese message boards and you'll see that they're just as petty, chauvinistic, and irrational as the people you converse with on this board.

If you take the threads about China on BRF and replace China with USA, you'll have a Chinese military board. There's nothing wrong with that. Why do anybody do anything on the internet anyway? I didn't know how I got dragged into giving advice on Indian National policies. I'm probrably the least qualified person. I started posting because a lot of BRFites here seems to not really know who the Chinese of Today are. A lot of top qaulity descussions don't make a lot of sense to me because of all the strawman and general misunderstandings. I'm hoping to give a Chinese point of view on certain aspects of things so at least we're all talking about the same China. Not some Red Army boogieman some of the BRFites seems to think China is.

DavidD wrote: The difference is in the government styles. When China ceded territories to Russia, the average Chinese person's response is no less indignant than the Indians here over the idea of ceding territories to China. But what did the CCP do about it? Nothing. They just let the people piss and moan all the want, and waited for 6-7 years for their wages to double and forget all about it. They then wait for 20 more years and let the peaceful development with Russia to allow this growth to continue, and the people don't even care about it anymore. The only way for the CCP to go out of power is through a revolution, and nobody's gonna revolt over border disputes when their wallets are fattening by the day.

Again, I don't mean for India to cede territories to China. That is up to the Indians. I'm just saying I will give the same advice to China as I did to India. Don't pick fights you can't win. Smile, bow if you have to. Build your strength quitely. Indignation is not a weapon. And when you're strong. You don't have to fight.

DavidD wrote: The Indian government can't afford that. In a couple of years when the next round of elections roll around, people would still remember the "shame" of this display of "weakness"(count how many times this word's been mentioned by the Indians here in describing their own government), and whoever was responsible will be voted out of office. Sure, the Indian people and the Chinese people are all the same intrinsically, and the Indian leaders are just as capable as Chinese leaders, but they're subject to different rules. While both Indian and Chinese leaders are driven by power and greed, and more power and greed for their children, the Chinese leaders may select to hand the power and money to their children in a more prosperous China, while the Indian leaders would have to settle for handing the power and money to their children in a less prosperous India. After all, it's better than being ousted from power and not having anything to hand down period.

This will not be a popular opinion. But here goes. Civilisational development comes in very similar cycles. Industrialising China had the same problems as Industrialising England. If you look at liberal western democracies. Their democracies flurished after their development. For fast and effective development of a country, you can't beat a beneficent dictatorship. (that's the hard part) Development will lead to liberalisation of ideas as developed countries tend to model off each other due to similar modern cultures. Korea, Japan, Taiwan all started out as dictatorships during their development. Look at them now. I hope India can develope fast enough as a democracy.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 01 Sep 2010 02:54

Manishw wrote: Sir have you entertained the idea of taking a hike instead of gracing us petty, chauvinistic, and irrational people here or 50 cents per post is something you really need.

Santosh wrote:Guys, don't feed the troll.

snahata wrote:hey montana why are you wasting your time on this forum amigo. get the hell out to Montana man.

Is this your reaction to differences in opinion? I hope you remember what it is about China that you hate so much.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Sep 2010 03:09

@ tonymontana, manish's post was not directed at you.

santosh and snahata, kindly do not make such judgement calls about another postor, especially one who has been quite civilized in his responses so far.

@ all, next time you have a problem with a post, use the report button,.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 01 Sep 2010 03:17

As per Tony, Chinese are Messenger of Gods and we all have wrong opinion on them. They are going to be the next savior of the World after USA.
Enemy is estimated by his behavior to One's mother country not by some Chinese saying some thing good on his own Govt. Period.
Lets come back to the original discussion on Chinese Military watch.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 01 Sep 2010 03:34

Thomas Kolarek wrote:
Enemy is estimated by his behavior to One's mother country not by some Chinese saying some thing good on his own Govt. Period.

I get this. What I'm getting at is the Chinese military and political establisment are RATIONAL. If you give them an option that is better for them and bette for India, they will take it. Hard military controntation is not the answer. A arms race with China is the last thing India needs.

Thomas Kolarek wrote:
Lets come back to the original discussion on Chinese Military watch.

Yea, I just went with the flow of the conversation. What would be the right thread for this line of conversation?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Sep 2010 06:14

Since folks are passionately debating, I am posting a bit of history I had dug. Gen D'Souza had said that Chinese will be very aggressive after the Olympic games. His words are coming true.

Chinese PLA menace at Nathu La in 1965

Added later,

By Lt Col AK Sharma

A Forgotten War, Valour & The Vanquished: Tid-bits from a Hoary Past

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 01 Sep 2010 08:16

[
snahata wrote:hey montana why are you wasting your time on this forum amigo. get the hell out to Montana man.
Is this your reaction to differences in opinion? I hope you remember what it is about China that you hate so much.

Tony Montana,

Yes I do remember what I hate about china, THE CHINESE GOVT,
This Indian and many like him are not going to rest until we have taken revenge for the humiliation of 1962, until our god given lands including aksai chin and lands in NEFA which were forcibly taken are taken back by force, kashmir is fully under indian control and Tibet is a free country and a buffer state between india and china.

After that we will talk about common culture and history and religion.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 01 Sep 2010 08:32

snahata wrote:
Yes I do remember what I hate about china, THE CHINESE GOVT,
This Indian and many like him are not going to rest until we have taken revenge for the humiliation of 1962, until our god given lands including aksai chin and lands in NEFA which were forcibly taken are taken back by force, kashmir is fully under indian control and Tibet is a free country and a buffer state between india and china.

After that we will talk about common culture and history and religion.

You can't make revenge a national goal. Look at the Palestinians. Revenge and God given land is also their mantra. How did that work out for them? Don't you see that such jingoism is actually detrimental to Indian interests? Maybe you would also like revenge against the English? I assure you they fvcked India up a lot more than the Chinese ever did and ever will.

I can't believe I have to say the following to you, because they are dharmic wisdom Chinese learnt from Indians.

1) The sweetest revenge is forgiveness.
2) The most sublime victory is making your enermy your friend.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 01 Sep 2010 09:09

Marten wrote:Tony, would be lovely for China to forgive and forget Tibet.
We'll make a friend of China all right. The most populous countries in the world will need to co-exist, but only if China itself starts behaving like a friend rather than the petty manner in which it is attempting to force itself onto the world stage. That is the primary reason the world over China has no support base. Think hard and honestly about it.

What would you say is the noble manner to force oneself onto the world stage? Interesting you used the word petty. Maybe you would prefer China to be more bold and start actual conflicts to gain dominance. That way people of the world will unite and beat down the Chinese like the Nazis and Japanese before right? Sadly the CCP realise that too.

Here's a interesting thought. What would YOU do if you were China?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 01 Sep 2010 09:18

Self deleted O.T

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Sep 2010 09:48

tony montana, this is the wrong thread for grand strategy discussion, use the PRC thread in strat forum.
any replies should be posted there as well and not here.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Sep 2010 10:55

deleted.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 01 Sep 2010 14:22

Well, the Gilgit - Baltistan being POK, is sovereign Indian territory. If the Govt could grow some balls, we can initiate ground operations limited to that sector, focused on dismantling the Chinese infrastructure. The Chinese wouldnt have any legal stand in retailiating. JMT

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 01 Sep 2010 20:15

Just to be clear, revenge is not on India's agenda vis-a-vis China.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 01 Sep 2010 20:51

ManuT wrote:Just to be clear, revenge is not on India's agenda vis-a-vis China.

Agreed, but mil ops in Gilgit Baltistan is an issue on which China has no locus standii as of this moment. If we were to wait and watch Gandhian style, the Chinese will soon be in a position to slap our other cheek also.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 01 Sep 2010 21:39

^ That India can do against TSP infrastructure too in POK.

The cost for TSP to keep Kashmir disputed should to go up.