Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 04 Sep 2010 15:14

Kanson wrote: Martime duty will not be restricted to MKI alone. Let LCA join in hordes. You will hear new missiles from the DRDO's kitty; one of them could assume the Anti-ship role launchable from smaller platform like LCA.

The tone used says something on assembly, i am unaware of... If you could help and enlighten...

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 04 Sep 2010 15:18

rohitvats wrote: You're expecting PLAN Surface Combatabs to come screaming out of the Malacca Straits???

No, I don't and hence I am not agreeing to 24 being sufficient... Although, they can be interim...

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2010 16:13

Raghavendra wrote:
sathyaC wrote:Long Range Cruise Missile is being developed by India according to Shiv Aroor blog
any one knows more info in BRF
It's a teaser, actual news will be published on 6 of this month, comments mention Nirbhay.

Googling for Nirbhay
Nirbhay will be a terrain-hugging missile capable of avoiding detection by ground-based radar. It would have a range of 1,000km. Nirbhay would weigh around 1,000kg and travel at 0.7 mach (nearly 840kmph) and would be capable of delivering 24 different types of warheads.

I guess shiv has exclusive news on Nirbhay then.

The next gen Stealth Indian warships are slated to carry 1000 km range cruise missiles .. are these Nirbhay as well ?

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 04 Sep 2010 18:19

The next gen Stealth Indian warships are slated to carry 1000 km range cruise missiles .. are these Nirbhay as well ?

can be K15

David Siegel · Post by **David Siegel** » 04 Sep 2010 18:45

Preparations on for super-sonic BrahMos testfiring
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/article613699.ece

Preparation for the test firing of super—sonic cruise missile BrahMos, likely to be held on Sunday, reached its final stage today at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur near here.

The sophisticated missile, being developed under Indo—Russian joint venture, has already been inducted into the Indian army as well as navy and the proposed test is a routine one by the users, defence officials said.

One regiment of the 290—km range BrahMos—I variant, consisting of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 ‘Tatra’ vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army, they said.

The Army is set to induct two more regiments of the BrahMos Block—II land—attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as “precision strike weapons” capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environment.

BrahMos—II can potentially be used for “surgical strikes” at terror training camps across the border without causing collateral damage.

The BrahMos Block—II variant has been developed to take out a specific small target, with a low radar cross—section, in a multi—target environment.

The BrahMos missile is a two—stage vehicle that has a solid propellant booster and a liquid propellant ram—jet system. The missile can fly at 2.8 times the speed of sound.

It can carry conventional warheads up to 300 kg for a range of 290 km.

Though the missile is capable of being launched from multiple platforms based on land, ship, sub—marines and air, focus in on for the development of its air—launched and the submarine—launched versions.

The last trial of the naval version of BrahMos was carried out successfully on March 21, 2010 from navy ship INS Ranvir off Orissa coast and it successfully hit the target.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Sep 2010 19:54

sathyaC wrote:
The next gen Stealth Indian warships are slated to carry 1000 km range cruise missiles .. are these Nirbhay as well ?
can be K15

K-15 is not a cruise missile and has a range of 700km.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 04 Sep 2010 20:05

India desperately needs a long range cruise missile-specifically a sub launched one even if its sub-sonic. Brahmos is ok but at hardly 300 km range it just dosent cut the mustard for India's nuke subs.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Sep 2010 20:17

rohit, please note.

One regiment of the 290—km range BrahMos—I variant, consisting of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 ‘Tatra’ vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army, they said.

The Army is set to induct two more regiments of the BrahMos Block—II land—attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as “precision strike weapons” capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environment.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 04 Sep 2010 20:19

Willy wrote:India desperately needs a long range cruise missile-specifically a sub launched one even if its sub-sonic. Brahmos is ok but at hardly 300 km range it just dosent cut the mustard for India's nuke subs.

Range isn't the biggest factor that will determine the effectiveness of a particuler mission rather it is the deterrance of the same that will work in our favour. Brahmos Equipped Conventional or Nuclear submarine is a great form of force multiplier, no opponent would like to see itself coming anywhere closer to this accurate weapon system. It will completely block the movements of enemy to very narrow lanes putting maximum pressure on its survival.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 04 Sep 2010 20:35

Bihanga wrote:
Willy wrote:India desperately needs a long range cruise missile-specifically a sub launched one even if its sub-sonic. Brahmos is ok but at hardly 300 km range it just dosent cut the mustard for India's nuke subs.
Range isn't the biggest factor that will determine the effectiveness of a particuler mission rather it is the deterrance of the same that will work in our favour. Brahmos Equipped Conventional or Nuclear submarine is a great form of force multiplier, no opponent would like to see itself coming anywhere closer to this accurate weapon system. It will completely block the movements of enemy to very narrow lanes putting maximum pressure on its survival.

But it will have to get to close to an adversary cause of the short range.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 04 Sep 2010 20:38

One regiment of the 290—km range BrahMos—I variant, consisting of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 ‘Tatra’ vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army, they said.

The Army is set to induct two more regiments of the BrahMos Block—II land—attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as “precision strike weapons” capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environment.

Can all this Mobile Command post alongwith Ancillary Vechile can be immediately mobilize with the help of IL-76 or An-32 in border regions for immediate deployment. I think Mobility will determine its effectiveness in Precision Strike as a effect based operation.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 04 Sep 2010 20:42

Willy wrote: But it will have to get to close to an adversary cause of the short range.

Willy, what short range are you talking about in a first place? 250-300 Km range is by no mean any short range. This is the maximum engagement range that Precision weapon can have. Even target will have no countermeasures to deal with such submarine because of excess engagement bestow upon it by Brahmos.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Sep 2010 21:13

Willy wrote:India desperately needs a long range cruise missile-specifically a sub launched one even if its sub-sonic. Brahmos is ok but at hardly 300 km range it just dosent cut the mustard for India's nuke subs.

Thats why we have the Nirbhay in the works..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2010 21:18

nrshah wrote:
rohitvats wrote: You're expecting PLAN Surface Combatabs to come screaming out of the Malacca Straits???
No, I don't and hence I am not agreeing to 24 being sufficient... Although, they can be interim...

Please understand that the number of ASM will be based on threat perception (number of ships) and number of attack platform. Plus, one also needs to factor into account the Anti-Ship capability of SU-30MKI and LRMP. Sum total of that is what is the capability of the air-arm.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2010 21:30

Rahul M wrote:rohit, please note.
One regiment of the 290—km range BrahMos—I variant, consisting of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 ‘Tatra’ vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment, is already operational in the Army, they said.

The Army is set to induct two more regiments of the BrahMos Block—II land—attack cruise missiles (LACM), which have been designed as “precision strike weapons” capable of hitting small targets in cluttered urban environment.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Which basically means that there are 15 ready-to-fire Brahmos with 52 reserves. Considering that there are 3*Brahmos per TATRA, I was thinking that may be re-loads will be in multiple of 3. But, what the heck. More the better.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2010 21:45

Bihanga wrote: Can all this Mobile Command post alongwith Ancillary Vechile can be immediately mobilize with the help of IL-76 or An-32 in border regions for immediate deployment. I think Mobility will determine its effectiveness in Precision Strike as a effect based operation.

Bihanga, at least on India's western border, 290kms represents a fair amount of range. Place the launcher in Amritsar and you can target most of the strategic locations in TSP Punjab. As it is, these missiles will be used to take out high-value targets like C3I nodes (like Corps HQ), major bridges, rail heads, POL and Ammunition dumps etc. Most of these will be per force be placed close (relatively) to border/LOC. So, range per se as far as Brahmos is concerned, is not an issue. They will be based considering their final area of deployment. For other tasks, there are longer range LACM under development (Nirbhay).

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 04 Sep 2010 21:49

nachiket wrote:
K-15 is not a cruise missile and has a range of 700km.

Bhramos-2

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 04 Sep 2010 22:03

rohitvats wrote:
Bihanga wrote: Can all this Mobile Command post alongwith Ancillary Vechile can be immediately mobilize with the help of IL-76 or An-32 in border regions for immediate deployment. I think Mobility will determine its effectiveness in Precision Strike as a effect based operation.
Bihanga, at least on India's western border, 290kms represents a fair amount of range. Place the launcher in Amritsar and you can target most of the strategic locations in TSP Punjab. As it is, these missiles will be used to take out high-value targets like C3I nodes (like Corps HQ), major bridges, rail heads, POL and Ammunition dumps etc. Most of these will be per force be placed close (relatively) to border/LOC. So, range per se as far as Brahmos is concerned, is not an issue. They will be based considering their final area of deployment. For other tasks, there are longer range LACM under development (Nirbhay).

Come on guys my point being we have to stop being Pak centric and shift focus to the bigger one out there- The Panda!!!.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Sep 2010 22:16

1. A tatra truck with 3 Brahmos on board is not transportable by an An-32. The An-32 is too small a plane for that.

A C-130 perhaps might be able to do so, and if the dimensions are alright one such truck with 3 missiles can be transported.

The Il-76 for sure can take one.

2. Can the 1000Km cruise missile to go into the next gen stealth destroyer be the Brahmos-II by any chance?
Gurus, can we expect the Nirbhay to be much cheaper than the Brahmos? My feeling is that the sensor package being similar, propulsion will be main difference in terms of cost. How much cheaper is a jet engine from a ramjet?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 04 Sep 2010 22:23

Gagan wrote:1. A tatra truck with 3 Brahmos on board is not transportable by an An-32. The An-32 is too small a plane for that.

A C-130 perhaps might be able to do so, and if the dimensions are alright one such truck with 3 missiles can be transported.

The Il-76 for sure can take one.

2. Can the 1000Km cruise missile to go into the next gen stealth destroyer be the Brahmos-II by any chance?
Gurus, can we expect the Nirbhay to be much cheaper than the Brahmos? My feeling is that the sensor package being similar, propulsion will be main difference in terms of cost. How much cheaper is a jet engine from a ramjet?

The Brahmos II will be a hypersonic missile wont it? The range will have to be within MCTR figures as its a joing development again.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 04 Sep 2010 22:37

sathyaC wrote:
The next gen Stealth Indian warships are slated to carry 1000 km range cruise missiles .. are these Nirbhay as well ?
can be K15

How do we know if Nirbhay and K 15 are one and the same weapons ?

K

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 04 Sep 2010 23:27

K-15 is a sub-launched launcher/canister/housing and not a missile per se. This was clarified way back more than on one occaision. The Missile to be mated with this launcher is Agni-4 sub launch version in the works but still under cloack of secrecy for obvious reasons.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Sep 2010 00:49

The K-15 is going into the VLS tubes of the Arihant. If anything, it'll resemble the Shaurya that we've seen. Please I only say 'resemble' the shaurya.

The Nirbhay seems to be like the tomahawk cruise missile, subsonic.
I wonder if there is going to be a anti-ship version of the Nirbhay eventually. Though, the IN having the Brahmos, Kh-32 Uran, sea eagles, exocets and now even some Harpoons has more or less covered the entire spectrum.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Sep 2010 01:22

nirmal I think it was the sagarika that was supposed to be the canister, K-15 is the naval twin of shaurya missile.

p.s. uran is KH-35 and sea eagles are going to be replaced by harpoons.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 05 Sep 2010 01:27

Rahul,
You are absolutely correct and I stand corrected. Thanks.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Sep 2010 07:13

nrshah wrote: The tone used says something on assembly, i am unaware of...

No Shah, I'm not referring any assembly. I only saying that there is chance of India attempting a Brahmos-lite type missile smaller enough to be mounted on any smaller platform like LCA. It will be a totally Indian effort. It will help in fulfulling the role expected of LCA by the IAF.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Sep 2010 07:22

Gagan wrote:can we expect the Nirbhay to be much cheaper than the Brahmos? My feeling is that the sensor package being similar, propulsion will be main difference in terms of cost. How much cheaper is a jet engine from a ramjet?

By drdo official word, Nirbhay will be built in numbers so it is expected to be cheaper. Price of the Brahmos engine is dictated by the Russians. So the real comparison can be made once we have our own Brahmos type engine or when we our local one.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 05 Sep 2010 07:57

Kanson wrote: No Shah, I'm not referring any assembly. I only saying that there is chance of India attempting a Brahmos-lite type missile smaller enough to be mounted on any smaller platform like LCA. It will be a totally Indian effort. It will help in fulfulling the role expected of LCA by the IAF.

Thank you Sir...but the problem is this will take huge amount of time... Take for example of Brahmos itself, Even 10 years of development (based on existing missile) Air launched version is not there.. of course, with brahmos, we would have learned a lot which will reduce the development time... But still it will take time... But I would love to see such a missile on LCA and hoping to see it very soon...

nits · Post by **nits** » 05 Sep 2010 09:35

nrshah wrote:
Kanson wrote: No Shah, I'm not referring any assembly. I only saying that there is chance of India attempting a Brahmos-lite type missile smaller enough to be mounted on any smaller platform like LCA. It will be a totally Indian effort. It will help in fulfulling the role expected of LCA by the IAF.
Thank you Sir...but the problem is this will take huge amount of time... Take for example of Brahmos itself, Even 10 years of development (based on existing missile) Air launched version is not there.. of course, with brahmos, we would have learned a lot which will reduce the development time... But still it will take time... But I would love to see such a missile on LCA and hoping to see it very soon...

And it will fly 290 KM +

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 05 Sep 2010 10:14

Indian Air Force to Purchase 24 Harpoon Block II Air-to-Surface Missiles

Indian Air Force to Purchase 24 Harpoon Block II Air-to-Surface Missiles

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India has signed an agreement with the U.S. government to buy the advanced anti-ship missiles to improve coastal aerial combat capability, local media reported on Friday.

The agreement worth about 170 million U.S. dollars was signed late last month, and the Indian Air Force (IAF) will acquire 24 U.S.-made Harpoon Block II air-to-surface missiles, the Indian newspaper the Economic Times reported.

According to the report, the deal has been negotiated for more than two years, and the former Bush administration approved the sales of the missiles during Indian Defense Minister A. K. Antony' s visit to Washington in 2008.

The report said the Indian Navy's air fleet lacks the lethal coastal anti-ship capability due to the shortages of the advanced fixed-wing aircraft and weapons. Those Harpoon missiles will be used for the coastal aerial guard by the Jaguar ground attack planes in the IAF .

It will be the first time for India to buy the advance anti- ship missiles from the United States in dozens of years.

Harpoon is a world-known all-weather, over-the-horizon anti- ship missile. Its launching platforms include the fixed-wing aircraft, surface ships and submarines.

Harpoon Block II is an improved version of the Harpoon family for the littoral water anti-ship striking.

(Source: Xinhua)

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 05 Sep 2010 10:30

India, Russia to develop missiles having speed of 6,000 kmph http://in.news.yahoo.com/20/20100905/14 ... hav_1.html

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 05 Sep 2010 10:33

sum wrote:Shyamd-ji,
You are saying that the NTRO official is a mole?

That is a possibility sum ji

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 05 Sep 2010 11:55

Indian Army Test Fires BrahMos Cruise Missile in Chandipur, Orissa

Indian Army test fired the BrahMos cruise missile from the Chandipur ITR this morning. India has conducted a series of development and acceptance tests for the BrahMos over the past few years.

(Source: IANS)

BrahMos is a supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land. It is a joint venture between Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russian NPO Mashinostroeyenia who have together formed BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited.

The Indian Army already operates one regiment of the 290—km range BrahMos—I variant. A regiment consists of 67 missiles, five mobile autonomous launchers on 12x12 'Tatra' vehicles and two mobile command posts, among other equipment (Source: The Hindu).

The air launched version for the Indian Air Force is ready for testing. An expert committee from the DRDO and the Indian Air Force (IAF) has ruled out any structural modification to the advanced Su-30MKI if it is to be fitted with the supersonic BrahMos. January 10, 2009 it was reported that two Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets have been sent to Russia for a retrofit program that would enable them to launch the aerial version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. (Source: Domain-b)

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 05 Sep 2010 12:09

TOI reports..

India, Russia to develop missiles having speed of 6,000 kmph

India will soon become the first country to have cruise missiles with hyper speed of over 6,000 km per hour, as an agreement for their joint development will be signed with Russia during the visit of President Dmitry Medvedev here in December. The first unit of Kudankulam nuclear plant, built by Russia in Tamil Nadu, will also be commissioned during the visit slated to begin from December 21.

Medvedev will be undertaking the visit for annual India-Russia Summit with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, during which the two sides will discuss ways to further enhance their relations in various fields. One of the highlights of the visit would be signing of a contract for joint development of hypersonic version of the BrahMos cruise missile, defence ministry sources said here.

This version of the missile will have a speed of over 6,000 kms per hour, making India the only country in the world to possess such missiles of this speed. The speed of the existing variant of BrahMos is half than that of the proposed ones. With a range of 290 kms, the hypersonic missiles are expected to be ready by 2015-16, the sources said. The much-delayed first unit of Kudankulam nuclear power plant is also expected be made operational during the visit of Medvedev, who will be visiting the site for the purpose, they said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Sep 2010 12:34

With respect to Brahmos 2 this this around we should take the lead in developing the Scramjet engine and let the russians develops the Sensor/Software.

Developing a scramjet engine is the most challenging task and this will help us in other programs once we have the technology

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Sep 2010 12:50

^^
Scramjet? Although our progress in that direction has been impressive, I hardly think that a scramjet powered missile is feasible at the moment. Also, a ramjet would be sufficient to provide speed upto 6mach.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2010 13:21

an article says today's blockII test ended in a supersonic dive on target rather than usual side-on low level hit. this is likely to hit very strong or underground targets like command centers or hardened concrete shelters that usually have earth & rock berms on the sides for additional protection.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 05 Sep 2010 13:32

ToI reporting Brahmos test fired successfully.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Sep 2010 13:34

Singha wrote:an article says today's blockII test ended in a supersonic dive on target rather than usual side-on low level hit. this is likely to hit very strong or underground targets like command centers or hardened concrete shelters that usually have earth & rock berms on the sides for additional protection.

A dive like that gives more probabilities on hit. It represents lowest RCS and highest speed.

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 05 Sep 2010 13:36

Singha wrote:an article says today's blockII test ended in a supersonic dive on target rather than usual side-on low level hit. this is likely to hit very strong or underground targets like command centers or hardened concrete shelters that usually have earth & rock berms on the sides for additional protection.

I think the blockII is designed to hit from the top as it is an LACM. It would be extremely difficult to achieve a low-level side-on hit on a small building (target) hiding amongst a cluster of big buildings with or without side on protection