MRCA News and Discussion

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Sep 2010 23:41

Willy wrote:

The Rafale was designed to be semi-stealthy, at least headon. Anyone have any info on the active radar cancellation that it is supposed to possess?

Engine is smoky at 1:25min
What is measure of the smokey of the engine

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 07 Sep 2010 00:42

sumshyam wrote:
Carl_T wrote:Isn't the Rafale significantly underpowered?
Wiki quotes as

# Powerplant: 2× Snecma M88-2 turbofans

* Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
* Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each

I think it is same as Kaveri Engine we have.

The thrust/weight ratio if you look at empty weight looks very close to 1:1, but when we load things on the plane, it would I think drop significantly. Is T/W very important though?

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 07 Sep 2010 01:42

karan_mc wrote:Every Air force in the world is having a Squadron named has "Tiger squadrons" nice paint job ,are they using now machine operated robots for this fine digital prints ?

Hi Karan, they're Decals

Acharya wrote:
James B wrote:Video of a very agile Rafale at an air show

Engine is smoky at 1:25min
What is measure of the smokey of the engine

Its smoky at 5:30, 6:25, 6:41 & 6:54 too. Why so ?

Outstanding display though!! Almost as if it was dogfighting.

Btw, Checkout these brilliant photos by Mark Jayne, he's one hell of an aviation photographer and if you're a Harrier Lover then you'll love his portfolio ► http://www.mjaviation.co.uk/PhotoGallery16.htm

RAF EF2K Pilots waiving to him while flying through Cad West.

Against the Green

and against the Snow

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Sep 2010 02:20

^^
That much smoke is nothing to worry about. Some amount of smoke can be produced because of some particular atmospheric conditions (particularly humidity). You will find some videos of almost all current fighters with that much amount of smoke. Look at the vids of earlier Mig-29s. Now that was something to worry about. This is almost negligible as compared to what earlier Mig-29s used to produce.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 07 Sep 2010 02:49

Philip I think what the Russians are saying now that they will partner India to develop a totally New AESA which will satisfy Indian requirements.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Sep 2010 07:58

Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub-Systems for Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3A

Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub-Systems are coming with improvements.

Praetorian DASS is already employed in the Eurofighter Tranche 2 aircraft. They are also supplied with the capacity for additional enhancements that can meet clients’ current and future operational requirements.

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 07 Sep 2010 09:30

Bort No. 967-Image by russianplanes.net

paramyog · Post by **paramyog** » 07 Sep 2010 13:30

Lovely pics..!!

Although I m a die hard EF fan, there is something that makes Rafale a class apart.
The reason EADS & Dassault parted ways in the Delta Canard fighter program was the fact that EADS wanted a Hard core Air Superiority Combat Aircraft. Dassault on the other hand, wanted a Fighter that could fit in multiple roles with ease of operation, adaptability and compatibility with purely air or naval platforms.
Both remind one of "Mele me bichhde Ram aur Shyam" from the 70s Hindi flick but EF packs in much more power in terms of T:W making it a better bet for A2A roles. Navy already has a plan for a highly specialised naval combat machine and rumor has it that F-35 is on the offering as well.
If I were to go by the anonymous IAF source's verdict, EF fared better than the rest in Ladakh, thanks to the Rolls Royce EJ200, the air compression capability works well at high altitudes as compared to GE's.

Waiting for more pics..!!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Sep 2010 14:35

If the Typhoon/EJ engine performed so well in Ladakh,then it is a sure front runner for the LCA.The engine has been a star performer in Typhoon's aerobatic displays at air shows.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 Sep 2010 15:04

@paramyog

You can check out some great pictures of the Rafale and EF Typhoon, among others, at websites like Airliners.net and Airfighters.com

I myself love to browse Airplane pics and videos. Still I would very humbly like to request the posters here to avoid cluttering this valuable & informative thread with general or 'non-specific' images and use thumbnail images (with links to main images) as far as possible.

I really treasure seeing specific images, with related information, like on page 25 of this thread just to give an e.g.

Thanks.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Sep 2010 00:25

paramyog wrote:Lovely pics..!!

Although I m a die hard EF fan, there is something that makes Rafale a class apart.
The reason EADS & Dassault parted ways in the Delta Canard fighter program was the fact that EADS wanted a Hard core Air Superiority Combat Aircraft. Dassault on the other hand, wanted a Fighter that could fit in multiple roles with ease of operation, adaptability and compatibility with purely air or naval platforms.

They parted ways not because the French wanted multi-role and that EADS (which didn't exist as EADS back then) wanted an air-superiority design.

They parted ways from the EFA (European Fighter Aircraft) in 1985 because the French believed that since they wanted the largest numbers of EFA fighters (including AeroNavale and Adl'A) they ought to get the EFA design lead and manufacturing work ought to be allotted on the basis of size of orders (which is a fair deal IMO). The Brits and Germans wanted equal share in the design and that didn't go down well with the French and Dassault-Breguet (as it was known back then) was then able to convince the French govt. to leave the consortium.

Dassault was extremely successful in this too, displaying and flying the Rafale at the 1986 Farnborough air show, just one year after they left the EFA. By then itself, it had flown at M 1.9, carried out 9G maneuvers and went through single engine tests. So obviously, they'd been working on a twin-engined fighter for several years before that and the experience with the Mirage-2000 helped a great deal.

Dassault also wanted a lighter aircraft (in part due to the naval requirement) but BAe and Germans did not. Such fundamental differences meant that cooperation would mean that one side would need to compromise and neither wanted to.

BTW, Dassault did try and get partners for the Rafale program at the start (and even tried to interest the US for a naval ATF requirement) and tried to get Brazil, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Greece and Norway interested as well. They even offered a single engine Rafale derivative design to Indonesia but they went for the F-16 instead.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Sep 2010 14:37

Meteor to be on Gripen

The Swedish Gripen C/D aircraft will also have a two-way datalink for communication between the aircraft and the missile once it has been fired.

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 09 Sep 2010 11:38

at Zhukovsky

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Sep 2010 06:36

Gen. Zelin became a traveling salesman (English translation from Russian)

Yesterday began the official visit of the delegation of the Russian Air Force General Command, headed by Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said in India. , Told news agencies the official representative of the Office of Press and Information Service Ministry of Defence Lt. Col. Vladimir Drick.

Now the Indian Air Force carried out a tender to supply Delhi 126 medium multi-purpose fighter aircraft (MMRCA). In addition to its U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft firm Boeing, as well as the F-16 Fating Falcon firm Lockheed Martin, the French Dassault Aviation Rafale with the Swedish SAAB JAS-39 Grippen, Europe (UK-Germany-Italy-Spain) Eurofighter EF-200 Typhoon, and our country is involved with multipurpose fighter MiG-35 that has an adjustable thrust vector and there are other martial dignity. Tests of the competing cars are already on the local air bases in the most difficult conditions of air combat, with a massive impact on their means, electronic warfare, countering other aircraft. A local media closely follow the situation and sometimes "issue on the air" such messages, which can lead to confusion of national experts.

For example, they reported recently that in the final part of the tender included the French and European fighters, and the Russian MiG-35 could not stand trial because of the engine, a resource which struck the Indian Air Force leaders inadequate. And though the Indian Air Force command denied a post as unreliable, General Zelin, as well as his subordinate, General Gradusovu certainly have to work hard to convince their senior Indian colleagues that our fighter still the best of all, that put up for competition. Also, ask them or not, time will tell. But $ 11 billion, which promised the winner, are to Air Force Commander has worked sometimes and salesman.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 10 Sep 2010 13:13

^^^
11 Billion ? I thought this tender was for 10 Billion. Is this a typo or something else?

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 10 Sep 2010 13:30

deleted by moderator

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2010 13:38

Mig-29 and Mig-29K ,Mig-35 are different beast and strategypage

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 10 Sep 2010 13:40

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^
11 Billion ? I thought this tender was for 10 Billion. Is this a typo or something else?

the compettition started off as 8 billion so don't be surprised if the value reached 12 billion by the time contract is signed.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Sep 2010 13:40

Christopher Sidor wrote:http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurp ... 00909.aspx

what applies for Mig-29 may also apply for mig-35.

FYI - Strategypage has been deemed unreliable news and info source by mods in the past Christopher..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2010 13:48

I think one of rafale cons is Snecma has no engine powerful enough to match the proposed EJ210+ nor plans to make one.
for single engined birds like Tejas, a big motor is a must to hack it against twin engine planes in a2a.
tejas mk2 baseline engine surely needs 23,000lb reheat which EJ210 proposes to provide f414 already does for gripen-NG
albeit f414 is 120kg heavier per the web.

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 10 Sep 2010 13:59

shukla wrote:Gen. Zelin became a traveling salesman (English translation from Russian)

Yesterday began the official visit of the delegation of the Russian Air Force General Command, headed by Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said in India. , Told news agencies the official representative of the Office of Press and Information Service Ministry of Defence Lt. Col. Vladimir Drick.

For example, they reported recently that in the final part of the tender included the French and European fighters, and the Russian MiG-35 could not stand trial because of the engine, a resource which struck the Indian Air Force leaders inadequate. And though the Indian Air Force command denied a post as unreliable, General Zelin, as well as his subordinate, General Gradusovu certainly have to work hard to convince their senior Indian colleagues that our fighter still the best of all, that put up for competition. Also, ask them or not, time will tell. But $ 11 billion, which promised the winner, are to Air Force Commander has worked sometimes and salesman.

better translation:

For instance, the media reported that the French and European models made it to the final round, while Russia’s MiG-35 was cut because the Indian air force leadership regarded its engine as being insufficient. Although India’s air force commander has denied these reports as being inaccurate, three-star general Zelin and his subordinate, commander Gradusov, will almost certainly have to invest a lot of time and effort to convince their Indian counterparts that Russia’s MiG-35 is still the best in show. Will they be able to pull it off? Only time will tell. But whatever the case, the $11 billion promised to the winner of the tender is enough case in point for Russia’s high command to, from time to time, take on the role of door-to-door salesman.

http://www.oyetimes.com/news/india/5781 ... -air-force

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 10 Sep 2010 14:02

Singha wrote:I think one of rafale cons is Snecma has no engine powerful enough to match the proposed EJ210+ nor plans to make one.

Hello Sir,

Can you give some details on proposed EJ210 +. I googled but...

.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 10 Sep 2010 17:02

I 2 x Eurojet EJ-210 mod 8 chemical turbofans with infra-red suppression, 166 kN of afterburning thrust total.Google for Ej-210+ and came up with this:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2010 18:12

they were planning a 20% more thrust growth version (16,000lb dry , 23000lb reheat) for later tranches of EF.

as mentioned to match the F414 they need the 23000lb model, and ej being 120kg lighter will enjoy advantage then/

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 10 Sep 2010 20:27

the mood on this dhaaga has become more EF orientated of late!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2010 20:34

continued american aid to the rogue state, various lectures/pressures given to india are not helping their cause in mrca
,,,plus the sluggish, fatty airframes of the SH and F16 doesnt help matters vs the nimble dances of the eurocanards.

mig35 to be realistic never had a chance because it doesnt bring in cutting edge tech.

rafale is a great plane let down by a weak engine pipeline

only gripen-NG and EF are left as +ve contenders imo with EF holding the edge due to
- drdo complex wont have any objection due to different category from tejas
- ej200 engine possibility for mk2 tejas
- no key american comp unlike 414 on gripen
- bigger and more diversified industrial complex behind ef , more users, more chance of future upgrades
- opens ties to both RR and MTU - very strategic cos and who are immune to american games...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Sep 2010 20:41

Singha wrote: only gripen-NG and EF are left as +ve contenders imo with EF holding the edge due to
- drdo complex wont have any objection due to different category from tejas
- ej200 engine possibility for mk2 tejas
- no key american comp unlike 414 on gripen
- bigger and more diversified industrial complex behind ef , more users, more chance of future upgrades

On the downside -

- No timeframe for operationalization of CAPTOR-E/CAESAR/Selex AESA whatever they are going with
- Suspect A-to-G capability compared to Rafale/SH
- Lower Payload than rafale despite more powerful engines and same/greater size
- UKstan is american poodle. They will slap sanctions on us as soon as massa asks them to.
- Huge cost (common with Rafale and SH) Plans to increase numbers to around 200 will never materialize.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2010 21:13

I read paveway delivery was tested on EF in july 2009 - quite late compared to others, but should be qualified and ironed out by now. the recent farnborough display with a load of LGBs was meant to demo that point perhaps.
since germany , spain and italy are also involved it wont be easy for ukstan to unilaterally shaft us. admittedly they have more power over EJ engine because its a RR heritage and MTU does not make the core 'hot' section.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 Sep 2010 21:15

Christopher Sidor,
Again...strategypage is haram on BRF.

James B · Post by **James B** » 10 Sep 2010 21:18

Gaur wrote:Christopher Sidor,
Again...strategypage is halal on BRF.

You meant haram, perhaps

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 10 Sep 2010 21:28

^^
Yeah, slip of tongue(or fingers in this case).

Will edit the post.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 10 Sep 2010 21:56

nachiket wrote:
- No timeframe for operationalization of CAPTOR-E/CAESAR/Selex AESA whatever they are going with

What comes first supply or demand type of issue. The European partners could do without AESA for their own use(because of their austerity drive) in case EF is not selected but if we select EF i.e. create demand then they won’t mind. So let's create the demand. It should not be an issue imho.

nachiket wrote: - Suspect A-to-G capability compared to Rafale/SH

Singha has already answered this.

nachiket wrote: - Lower Payload than rafale despite more powerful engines and same/greater size

There is an optimum survivable payload for flying over SAM ridden areas. By the time India can fly an overloaded “bombtruck” config over an enemy it most likely doesn't need to use what hangs down from the wings.

nachiket wrote: - UKstan is american poodle. They will slap sanctions on us as soon as massa asks them to.

Jaguars weren’t grounded after 1998. They would be pragmatic enough not to spoil own records in a direct revenue stream

nachiket wrote: - Huge cost (common with Rafale and SH) Plans to increase numbers to around 200 will never materialize.

Even Su MKI was expensive when first acquired and a program Sukhoi Double bill was shown to janata to explain why it was justified.
Consider it as cost of tech acquisition that would feature in our subsequent products. Someone not providing any meaningful tech or pointing fingers towards oem would always have it cheaper. But we cannot reward vendors who are low on technology offsets. That’s setting a wrong precedent and that's why I don't believe entirely in L1.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 10 Sep 2010 23:21

Arya Sumantra wrote:
nachiket wrote: - UKstan is american poodle. They will slap sanctions on us as soon as massa asks them to.
Jaguars weren’t grounded after 1998. They would be pragmatic enough not to spoil own records in a direct revenue stream

nachiket wrote: - Huge cost (common with Rafale and SH) Plans to increase numbers to around 200 will never materialize.

But the IN Seakings were grounded due to lack of spares from UK.

K

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Sep 2010 00:03

Interesting read on the Rafale and its engine, avionics, weapons and capabilities.

Fox 3 Rafale pdf

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 11 Sep 2010 02:09

Seaking Manufacturing company was bought over by the US. With US imbargo in place all US companies even if located in other countries were subjected to the embargo. UK had little choice in the matter.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Sep 2010 07:51

US pushing hard for American jets..

"The Obama administration is trying to persuade New Delhi to buy American jet fighters instead [of Russian ones], a shift White House officials say would lead to closer military and political relations between India and the US. It would also be a bonanza for U.S. defense contractors, and [the White House] has dispatched senior officials such as Mr. Gates to New Delhi to deliver the message that Washington hopes India will choose American defense firms for major purchases in the years ahead."

The Wall Street Journal quoted Tom Captain, vice chairman and Global and U.S. Aerospace & Defense director at Deloitte headquarters in New York, as claiming "For 2010 and 2011, India could well be the most important market in the world for defense contractors looking to make foreign military sales," where Russian equipment accounts for about 70 percent of that currently in use.

Referring to India's plans to spend $10 billion for 126 multirole combat aircraft, Captain added: "That's the biggest deal in the world right now. If it goes to an American firm, that would be the final nail in the coffin in terms of India shifting its allegiance from Russia to the U.S." Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen was in the Indian capital on July 22-23 and met with Defence Minister AK Antony, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik and other military leaders. As a local news agency divulged, "Mullen's visit comes at a time when both sides are looking at expanding defence cooperation across a swathe of areas. The visit also coincides with intensified lobbying for the $10 billion contract for 126 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF)."

The White House is negotiating new export control agreements with India to assist American arms firms to sell more high-technology weapons to the Asian nation.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1009/S ... ucture.htm

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Sep 2010 10:52

For such a crucial item, we will be unwise indeed in opting for US aircraft.

1. Directly subsidizing arms sales to Pakistan
2. Rewarding the Americans for selling arms to Pakistan, arms that are sure to be used against us
3. Putting a lot of our eggs into the sanction prone American basket
4. Having to rely on arms that will have all sorts of kill switches in it

Do Anthony and company have the balls to say no to the Americans?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Sep 2010 11:37

The key question is what does the "inner circle" that advises Sonia think? Recent media speculation suggest that there is a rift between the PM's circle and the Sonia circle on several policy issues.The PM has also said that AKA is "delaying" taking crucial defence decisions.From its past history,the Congress party likes to identify itself with the "poor" of the country,raking in votes from a cross-section of the voting population.There have been suggestions that MMS is too close to the Yanquis for the traditional Congress stalwarts,who through the "inner circle",might try and sabotage Singh's dream of turning India into a US satellite and vassal state.It may be why the "leaks" about the two US birds not being frontrunners have been deliberately released,to put a brake on MMS's lust for the US and might have been done so even by the MOD under AKA!

On grounds of logic and reason alone,it would be incomprehensible to award the MMRCA deal to the US soley on the grounds that it will never stop arming and aiding Pakistan which uses the weapons it receives to wage war against india.The US is trying to have two "rent-boys" in the region.India to join Pakistan in its sordid "love nest" in a "menage-a-trois".

On technical grounds too,the US fighters are from a vintage generation no matter what "make-up" has been applied and few of the US's allies,ect.,if any want the latest avatars of these two venerable ladies,preferring the JSF instead.IN another thread,a comparison of the GE engine vs the EJ for LCA MK-2,shows the American one to be too old in tech n comparison.Here ,the three European birds have the advantage in technology and future growth of the design,with the MIG-35 being the most cost-effective solution should finance be the key factor.The Gripen,dark horse is too close in concept to the LCA,which is being pushed hard by the GOI to succeed for both prestige and to salvage the huge amount spent in its development and giving us a foundation in aerospace tech for the future.

Vril · Post by **Vril** » 11 Sep 2010 14:30

O.T

I say we must let the yanks know they can not ungly us on outsourcing and yet expect us to give them the planes.

they want to snatch away our jobs but want us to give them employment through this deal. A Big No. They may have good planes but this is the right time to deliver the message.

manum · Post by **manum** » 11 Sep 2010 14:37

actually, I would like them to do what they are saying about outsourcing...in aftermath, we'll be bolder and stronger...because of new balance...Yanks only do yak yak, specially those who become presidents after writing books about hope...