PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 11 Aug 2010 19:12

The F-22 fans out here seem to be oblivious to the aircraft's operational weaknesses. It has v.poor performance in EMI rich environments, and the few times it was flown over the Chesapeake Bay, its sensors were overwhelmed by the mass of EM from radars on cutters and clippers! Like Riddick who wears special shades in daylight (Chronicles of Riddick) the F22 may need shielding so strong that it loses most of its passive sensing ability. The EM reflective coating has been found to degrade very badly in moist and humid environments. And let's stop singing peans to the IsAF. It's rarely faced well trained and led AFs, and has like any other human powered AF suffered against good solid ground defences. The Chinese JF-17 policy of masses of cheap aircraft is as old as air warfare. The Brits did that in WW1 and the USAF did that in WW2 as did the Red AF then and again with the MiG-21. Why the F-16 itself is an example of a cheap mass produced weapon.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Aug 2010 22:58

has the F22/B2 ever been deployed to a hot and steaming place like singapore or jakarta, parked in the open, exposed to rain and dust storms and punished for a 2 week intensive ops cycle in austere operating conditions?

to me it seems like they need A/C hangers and the B2 probably even more luxurious quarters as they have to put up 2 sets of tankers to have it fly out and in from their mainland base and drop a dozen bombs in the middle east. bombs that a F16 could drop from a local base. to me B2 is a total white elephant and has no forseable useful role in its proposed lifetime.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Aug 2010 23:04

B-2 was designed to penetrate deep inside Soviet Air Defence and attack key targets and C&C centers with nuclear weapons plus hunt mobile ICBM that role still remains undiminished.

It seems it did quite well during Kosovo campaign with precision conventional strikes but it remains a white elephant for sure , probably they will be replaced by New Generation Bomber

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Aug 2010 23:59

Most of these fancy tools are useful to hurt the small guys. When it comes to major players the game is never direct. If and when it becomes direct the fat boys are pulled out.

Since Most of the major players are in the same camp, the demands for CRE on potential players.

humble thoughts onlee.

prastor · Post by **prastor** » 12 Aug 2010 13:21

A Russian documentary I saw today showed an engineer claiming the Tikhomirov's NIIP AESA Radar has 1500 T/R modules. The F-22A Raptor's AN/APG-77-v1 is claimed to have over 2000 T/R modules.

Why are we settling with fewer T/R modules than that in the current radar on the Raptors? Do Raptors have more real-estate for the radar than the Pak Fa?

AnuragK · Post by **AnuragK** » 12 Aug 2010 14:07

For the serious researchers/readers on this subject, i am giving here the links that make for really enlightening knowledge on this particular topic. The authors are not only world renowned but also adequately qualified to write on such subjects. After having gone through these articles studiously, i am certain readers will have a better u/standing of Soviet/Russian design philosophy, methodology, and their techno-scientific prowess/competence. I have been following various defense/security fora, especially India related, and find only trash or at best half-baked knowledge floating around. Regrettable to say that before we venture to put up a post, we do not even bother to do some basic research on our own. I find more of emotion than objective content on the discussion boards or otherwise biases tainted by over-hyped propaganda. This is my small attempt to set the ball rolling by raising the bar.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230210-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/flanker.html

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 12 Aug 2010 14:28

spetsnaz wrote:For the serious researchers/readers on this subject, i am giving here the links that make for really enlightening knowledge on this particular topic. The authors are not only world renowned but also adequately qualified to write on such subjects. After having gone through these articles studiously, i am certain readers will have a better u/standing of Soviet/Russian design philosophy, methodology, and their techno-scientific prowess/competence. I have been following various defense/security fora, especially India related, and find only trash or at best half-baked knowledge floating around. Regrettable to say that before we venture to put up a post, we do not even bother to do some basic research on our own. I find more of emotion than objective content on the discussion boards or otherwise biases tainted by over-hyped propaganda. This is my small attempt to set the ball rolling by raising the bar.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230210-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/flanker.html

FYI, It may interest you in this link:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/search ... mit=Search

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Aug 2010 04:41

IAF Foresees Delays In Indo-Russian 5th Gen Fighter Programme

A senior officer of the Indian Air Force has said that India foresees "Substantial Delays" in the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme, with slippages that could run into a year or more for inductions into Indian service.

The Indian Air Force plans to contract for 50 single-seat (prototype designated T-50) fighters and 200-250 twin-seat variants -- the latter will be built with Indian financial and technological involvement.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Aug 2010 05:17

Wut's so alarming in these news?? It's a classic I TOLD YOU SO!!!! We all knew this was coming and it's bound to happen sooner or later, especially since the two haven't even signed a deal on the FGFA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Aug 2010 16:10

Craig,a deal was signed some time ago and according to informed media sources,there is no need at this stage for a further signing.What I think is happening is that the first flight trials of the Pak-FA are being closely watched to see if they meet specs and then as the sensors and weaponry are factored into the first prototypes,the special Indo-spec key components will emerge.Just as was the case with the first Su-30s,as the report says,we will probably acquire a first lot of similar single-engined fighters as Russia intends to operate and then with succeeding lots built to the desired Indo-specs.The first lot can then be retuned just as agreed with the first SU-30s."200-250" aircraft is going to cost a helluva-lot of moolah though and the aircraft cannot be a "delicate darling" that momma can't send out late at night,but must be like a slut in the sky,capable of performing every trick in the book and new ones too!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Aug 2010 20:08

Russian nationalist analysts assail JV aerial projects

the top issues under discussion are the Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 fighter, a prototype for the Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation stealth fighter jet currently being developed by Sukhoi OKB for the Russian Air Force

Nationalist critics of the Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 fighter have focused on India's involvement with the project, along with the fact that the Sukhoi Superjet 100 passenger plane will be powered by jet engines designed by a joint venture between Russia's Saturn and a subsidiary of France's Safran.

The Sukhoi PAK FA T-50, designed to directly compete with Lockheed Martin's F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II fighters, upon becoming operational is intended to replace the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker in Russia's Air Force inventory and furthermore, serve as the test bed the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA project being developed in a joint venture with India. The Sukhoi PAK FA T-50, Russia's first all-new warplane since the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, made its maiden flight in January and has subsequently made 15 additional test flights.

The aircraft is designed to be a major element in future armaments sales by Russia's state-owned Rosobornekhsport program. Sukhoi OKB director Mikhail Pogosian has predicted that Rosobornekhsport 1,000 aircraft over the next four decades. As the Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 is a joint venture with India, the Russian and Indian air forces will be the initial recipients of two hundred fighters apiece, with an additional six hundred being manufactured for export. Initial deployment is planned for 2015. A naval version of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will be eventually deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and future Russian aircraft carriers, as well as India's former Soviet carrier Admiral Gorshkov, currently undergoing a lengthy refit in Russia's Sevmash shipyard. The Admiral Gorshkov, a modified Kiev-class Soviet aircraft carrier, was purchased in 2004 by India and after refitting will enter the Indian Navy as INS Vikramaditya.

Naval version on the cards.. probably more for the IAC 2 than the Gorshkov..

AnuragK · Post by **AnuragK** » 17 Aug 2010 17:59

whoever gave you the idea that you are doing us a favour by posting wiki articles verbatim ?
that too without links and after repeated requests not to !
Rahul.

prastor · Post by **prastor** » 17 Aug 2010 18:04

Philip wrote:Craig,a deal was signed some time ago and according to informed media sources,there is no need at this stage for a further signing.What I think is happening is that the first flight trials of the Pak-FA are being closely watched to see if they meet specs and then as the sensors and weaponry are factored into the first prototypes,the special Indo-spec key components will emerge.Just as was the case with the first Su-30s,as the report says,we will probably acquire a first lot of similar single-engined fighters as Russia intends to operate and then with succeeding lots built to the desired Indo-specs.The first lot can then be retuned just as agreed with the first SU-30s."200-250" aircraft is going to cost a helluva-lot of moolah though and the aircraft cannot be a "delicate darling" that momma can't send out late at night,but must be like a slut in the sky,capable of performing every trick in the book and new ones too!

Interesting choice of words/analogies. hehe.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Aug 2010 16:37

Indians look into Russia’s fifth-generation jet fighter

An Indian delegation has arrived at the town of Zhukovsky, near Moscow, to be briefed on and examine Russia’s new “frontline aircraft system”.

The delegation comprises officials of the HAL aircraft-building corporation, of the Defence Ministry and India’s Air Force.

The visit is part of the effort to carry out a joint project to develop a fifth-generation jet fighter that’s partly funded by India.

India’s Defence Ministry is expected to buy some 250 such planes.

AnuragK · Post by **AnuragK** » 02 Sep 2010 01:41

deleted.

this regular condescending comments followed by garbage information has gone on long enough. kindly stop or you will be forced out of this forum.

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 02 Sep 2010 02:20

AnuragK wrote:For all those of us who all this while were under the false illusion that the Su-T-50 PAK FA is an Indo-Russian (25%-75% respective) joint venture,

Please muster the patience to read through the contents (not just browse through) of the following link very thoroughly keeping in mind the context,

Did you see the date of the article, its 1/11/2006, guess you should have read it thoroughly including the date.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Sep 2010 09:33

PAK-FA demonstrated to Indian delegation

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 03 Sep 2010 12:29

Austin wrote:PAK-FA demonstrated to Indian delegation

It is in Russian. Is there a translated version available somewhere ?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 03 Sep 2010 12:37

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Austin wrote:PAK-FA demonstrated to Indian delegation
It is in Russian. Is there a translated version available somewhere ?

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... 2F77980%2F

It is assumed that the aircraft was 5-th generation will be multi-functional complex and versatile, able to solve a wide range of tasks to work on the ground and air targets, have the maneuverability, low profile and be able to cruise at supersonic speeds.

Russian Ministry of Defense expects to receive the first such aircraft in 2015. The cost of each aircraft 5-th generation will be about 100 million U.S. dollars.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Sep 2010 20:50

^^ add on from flight global.. with some images from the demo.

Indian officials get up close to new-look PAK FA fighter

Russia has conducted a flight demonstration with its prototype PAK FA fighter for a delegation of Indian defence ministry and industry officials. Held at Ramenskoye aerodrome near Moscow on 31 August, the 10min display was made in support of talks over the bilateral development by Moscow and New Delhi of a new fifth-generation fighter.

Indian officials inspected Sukhoi's lone PAK FA following the demonstration, which included low-speed passes and high angle-of-attack manoeuvres. The aircraft, which will be followed by two more prototypes before the end of the year, is pictured with new-look camouflage markings.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 08 Sep 2010 05:17

Max just emailed me his latest shot >

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 09 Sep 2010 08:55

what a stunning beauty IAF's going to get its hands on

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 10 Sep 2010 10:05

Some Update on Sales Expected Figure

Experts identify more than a dozen countries that are potential and the most likely buyers of Russian T-50. Among them were: Algeria with the alleged purchase of 24-36 fifth-generation fighter in the period of 2025-2030 years, Argentina - 12-24 units in the years 2035-2040, Brazil - 24-36 units in the years 2030-2035, Venezuela - 24 - 36 units in the years 2027-2032, Vietnam - 12-24 units in the years 2030-2035, Egypt - 12-24 units in the years 2040-2045. Also on the list referred to Indonesia (6-12 units in the years 2028-2032), Iran (36-48 units in the years 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (12-24 units in the years 2025-2035), China (up 100 units in 2025 -2035 years), Libya (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030), Malaysia (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040) and Syria (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030).

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Sep 2010 12:16

sumshyam wrote:Some Update on Sales Expected Figure

Experts identify more than a dozen countries that are potential and the most likely buyers of Russian T-50. Among them were: Algeria with the alleged purchase of 24-36 fifth-generation fighter in the period of 2025-2030 years, Argentina - 12-24 units in the years 2035-2040, Brazil - 24-36 units in the years 2030-2035, Venezuela - 24 - 36 units in the years 2027-2032, Vietnam - 12-24 units in the years 2030-2035, Egypt - 12-24 units in the years 2040-2045. Also on the list referred to Indonesia (6-12 units in the years 2028-2032), Iran (36-48 units in the years 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (12-24 units in the years 2025-2035), China (up 100 units in 2025 -2035 years), Libya (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030), Malaysia (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040) and Syria (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030).

China 100+ units by 2025-2035???

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2010 13:04

Some more pics

Image: http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5495/1776617.jpg

Image: http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3707/1775641.jpg

Image: http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3851/1699085.jpg

Image: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8600/1694101.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Sep 2010 18:08

Gaur wrote:I find that people are much taken with flat nozzles. However, I would not be surprised if the flat nozzles are not included in even the later versions of PAK-FA. Russians have experimented with flat nozzles and found that they come with their own share of problems.

Gaur flat nozzle is needed for all aspect stealth , they use a combination of Flat Nozzle , Ceramics and mixing of cool air to reduce the RF and IR signature to the extent that would be possible.

Saturn has recently applied for a patent on 2D Flat Nozzle and the new ~ 16.5T engine under development for second stage is most likely customer of this flat nozzle.

Here are some details ( via flateric )
http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?p=94636#p94636 ( translated )

Open Joint Stock Company "Scientific-Production Association" Saturn "(" NPO "Saturn") (RU)

(72) Author (s):
Marchukov Eugene Yuvenalievich (RU),
Privalov Vitaly (RU),
Chepkin Viktor Mikhailovich (RU)

Flat nozzle turbojet engine

The invention relates to aircraft engine, namely the construction of nozzles turbojet engines. Flat nozzle comprises a body, the upper and lower rotary wing, fixed side walls, ram, extra ram and rotary frame. One end of the power cylinder is attached to the hull, and the other connected to the upper sash by turning the rotary frame. Swing frame is made with a triangular cross section. The surface of the rotating frame, facing the flow of the nozzle is cylindrical. Additional power cylinder with one end attached to the side wall, and others connected with the lower downstream end of the upper sash. The axis of rotation of the frame rigidly attached to the sides of the nozzle. The invention makes it possible to change the thrust vector engine, and also reduce the aerodynamic losses due to flow around the outer and inner surface of the nozzle and increase the engine thrust.

Paralay drew a CAD model for this 2D Nozzle

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Sep 2010 21:01

^^
Thanks for that piece of info. That is news to me and in a way it makes sense. The disadvantages of flat nozzles are decrease in thrust and increase in weight. But the phenomenal thrust of AL-41 may compromise the decrease in thrust. Also, with advancement in material science since 80s, the Russians may have reduced the weight penalty for flat nozzles. Also, PAK-FA is such a heavy fighter that the weight increase may not effect it as much as it would effect lighter fighters.
But having said that, it is not the first time that Russians are experimenting with flat nozzles. So, it will all come down to the worth of IR signature reduction by flat nozzles against reduction in agility.
Also, one more question. It has been repeatedly said that round nozzles are required for 3D TVC. Why is that so? AFAIK, 3D tvc does not mean that the nozzles can dance in any direction they want. They move in either horizontal axis or vertical axis. Well, at least that is the impression I have got by seeing the youtube vids. So, why is it not possible to have 3D TVC with flat nozzles?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Sep 2010 22:01

Well you can read on 3D TVC from Klimov , they call that omnidirectional nozzle

http://en.klimov.ru/production/aircraft/tvn/#t

Flat Nozzles can only move in pitch , I dont think one can achive multidirectional nozzle movement with Flat Nozzle.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2010 22:49

but wouldnt the up & down movement of 2d nozzle be realistically enough to
- pitch the plane up and down sharper
- help during sharp skid/banked turns
- 'trim' the a/c and reduce use of wing control surfaces
- in a twin engine one up and one down would help rolling similar to mki

omnidirectional nozzle might do it all this smoother, but can it do something else useful in real life?

wasu · Post by **wasu** » 11 Sep 2010 23:47

India, Russia to Ink gen-5 fighter pact

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ct/407746/

Each side to pledge $6 bn to co-develop plane.
....
Senior defence ministry sources have confirmed to Business Standard that years of tortuous negotiations have been successfully concluded in time for Russian President Dimitry Medvedev’s visit to India in December. Russian and Indian negotiators have finalised a preliminary design contract (PDC), a key document that will allow designers from both sides to actually begin work on the fighter.

“The negotiators have done their job, and the Cabinet Committee for Security will consider the PDC, probably this month,” says the ministry official. “If the CCS gives the green signal, as is likely, the contract will be signed during Medvedev’s visit.”
....

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 12 Sep 2010 00:05

Vishal Jolapara wrote:
what a stunning beauty IAF's going to get its hands on

Don't want to be a spoilsport, I still think there is lot of room for improvement of PAK-FA belly from design perspective.
It should have been made flat and not a groove in between the air intakes. That way larger missiles/weapons could be accomodated in the internal weapon bays. Additionally the rear sting could carry more.

Please compare the F22 belly design to know what I mean ...
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... 411-6.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Sep 2010 01:59

On the contrary, thats extra empty weight to lug around when you dont require large missiles, and a larger cross section tacked on, implying more drag, requiring more powerful engines, and wasted fuel. The rear sting is also likely to be kept for a brake parachute.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2010 09:07

pakfa has 2 internal bays due to widely separated engine , f22 has one due to closely space engines. also more of the intake seems
to be "below" the fuselage vs the f22 which accounts for the belly groove. a IR stealthy f23 type rear end would nicely round it off...but
its unlikely something so radical would be used...a f22 style conventional flat nozzle is possible.

http://cdn.globalaircraft.org/media/img ... f-23-4.jpg

nits · Post by **nits** » 12 Sep 2010 15:36

China 100+ units by 2025-2035???

If its a joint devlopment; buyer should be mutually agreed to both countries unlike Brahmos... No ?? Also china is devloping its own 5 -Gen Fighter... Link

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Sep 2010 17:23

Singha wrote:pakfa has 2 internal bays due to widely separated engine , f22 has one due to closely space engines. also more of the intake seems
to be "below" the fuselage vs the f22 which accounts for the belly groove. a IR stealthy f23 type rear end would nicely round it off...but
its unlikely something so radical would be used...a f22 style conventional flat nozzle is possible.

http://cdn.globalaircraft.org/media/img ... f-23-4.jpg

Besides, the missiles/etc themselves should be getting smaller for the same punch or have more punch for the same size. For sure GPS, etc have made them more accurate and therefore smaller.

I would not place that much emphasis on such comparisons (PAK-FA vs, F-22), there are just too many variables that have changed since each was designed/built.

What REALLY matters is how close is the FGFA to what the IAF wants AND how much of the IP is transferable to India - for migration of technologies to other Indian projects.

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Sep 2010 23:46

Those widely separated engines are a continuation of the Fulcrum-Flanker design philosophy which contributes to body lift .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Sep 2010 00:12

negi wrote:Those widely separated engines are a continuation of the Fulcrum-Flanker design philosophy which contributes to body lift .

Also provides space for the second internal weapons bay which is impossible in the F-22. On the flip side, it exposes too much of the engine blades, increasing the RCS.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 13 Sep 2010 14:03

negi wrote:Those widely separated engines are a continuation of the Fulcrum-Flanker design philosophy which contributes to body lift .

Hi I am not against the design philosophy, I would prefer the PAK-FA belly somewhat similar to Su 30 Smart skin concept (refer below image). If Russian designers are thinking in that line for Su-30, then why not for PAK-FA ?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Sep 2010 14:19

Russia to export 600 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation jets

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 13 Sep 2010 14:44

shukla wrote:Russia to export 600 Sukhoi PAK FA fifth generation jets

Based on the forecast, the potential buyers of PAK FA are distributed between the following countries: Algeria (can purchase 24-36 fifth-generation fighters in the period of 2025-2030 years), Argentina (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040), Brazil (24 - 36 units in the years 2030-2035), Venezuela (24-36 units in the years 2027-2032), Vietnam (12-24 units in the years 2030-2035), Egypt (12-24 units in the years 2040-2045).

Also, Indonesia (6-12 units in the years 2028-2032), Iran (36-48 units in the years 2035-2040), Kazakhstan (12-24 units in the years 2025-2035), China (up to 100 units in the years 2025-2035) , Libya (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030), Malaysia (12-24 units in the years 2035-2040), and Syria (12-24 units in the years 2025-2030).