Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
This was a 3-hour flight, hain? Not a 9-hour or 14-hour one?
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
While Pilots were fully rested, sleeping on a three hour flight was criminal.This might have resulted in missing the waypoint where controlled descent is executed.enqyoob wrote:This was a 3-hour flight, hain? Not a 9-hour or 14-hour one?
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
suryag ji,suryag wrote:Gurus had a question, does the pilot know how much of the runway is left to allow him to make decisions. for example if there is say a board every 100ft on the run way which counts down or up the pilot wouldnt have to rely on his decision estimating skills to find out how much of runway is left. In this case it is possible that the pilot estimated the distance available to him was more than 800ft say a 1000ft and this could have caused him to think he can take off.
There are none,1,2,3 and some times 4 odd markers on the runway depending on the length.
These show you how much of the runway is left ahead of the marker.
No one actually looks at these except maybe the passengers.
The workload in the cockpit is extremely high during landing or takeoff and both pilots are busy.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
chaanakya wrote:While Pilots were fully rested, sleeping on a three hour flight was criminal.This might have resulted in missing the waypoint where controlled descent is executed.enqyoob wrote:This was a 3-hour flight, hain? Not a 9-hour or 14-hour one?
chaanakya ji,
The pilots day for this particular flight may have well begun about 18 -20 hours or so before the crash.
No one except some lucky emergency room doctors can actually switch on and switch off at the drop of a hat.
If sleep is interrupted, it takes a while to settle down again. These AI express pilots are generally on the go for 10-15 days on the trot. Day and night flights are mixed with layoffs in between.
It takes time and effort to overcome jetlag as the body runs on a different clock and not any airline clock.
Different bed every night, some pretty bad food even in a 5* ambiance and surrounded by strangers
speaking funny languages.
No. The crew was certainly not fully rested.
The length of the flight is not of any consequence, fatigue is fatigue any which way you slice it.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Er.. Now u r REALLY scaring me. I have got stranded overnight at strange cities quite a few times because the flight got delayed - and the pilots crossed the 8-Hour Duty Rule and had to quit for the day per FAA regulations.
The Pennsylvania (or was it W. Va) fatal crash of a commuter plane was blamed on - guess what - Pilot Error, but the blame was placed on the crew having to fly many hours to get to the airport where the flight originated.
But aren't international pilots (or any pilots on Indian commercial airlines) limited to 8 hours of duty per 24 hours? Where is this 18-hour day business coming from?
The Pennsylvania (or was it W. Va) fatal crash of a commuter plane was blamed on - guess what - Pilot Error, but the blame was placed on the crew having to fly many hours to get to the airport where the flight originated.
But aren't international pilots (or any pilots on Indian commercial airlines) limited to 8 hours of duty per 24 hours? Where is this 18-hour day business coming from?
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Chetak, the Indian civil flying environment has come in for some serious bashing in the PPRuNE Forum, in their thread for the Mangalore crash. Most comments appear to be from airline pilots who are aware of the Indian system and even if its armchair analyses after the event, their comments are pretty cuttingly incisive. Some not-so-clean linen is being washed there, especially of AI Express. Even if half of it had the element of truth, its all pretty alarming! Certain contributory factors peculiar to AI Express appear to be (quoting from verious posts):chetak wrote: Sir jee,
For Mangalore, autobrake is set as per AI company procedure. ( the thrust reversers kick in and the autobrake setting controls the amount of reverse thrust which varies as per the setting)
There are various settings(1,2,3,4,max) to cater for dry, wet and/or contaminated runway that increase or decrease the amount of reverse thrust automatically applied.
This is most probably how the reversers kicked in.
The Captain had been very recently, prior to the accident, been pulled up officially for a "heavy landing" which please note was well within the Boeing company limitations for the 737 but beyond
the AI limits. This was the only stupid company that had issued such limitations in India. After the accident the order has been quietly withdrawn.
The politicians who travel for free and first class mind you, need a cushioned landing to protect their fragile backsides because of the brains that they have there.
All go arounds are reported and investigated. The pilot is invariably faulted for it except in case of bird hits or single engine on approach or whatever.
The aircraft had an un stabilized approach from the beginning which both pilots were fully aware of.
Usually some last minute fancy flying is done to correct the mistake but well before the threshold is crossed.
The copilot was up for his command checks and he may have hesitated to tell a well respected instructor pilot that a cock up was in progress thinking that the captain's years of experience would pull them through safely.
The aircraft crossed the threshold "hot and high", meaning higher and faster than was called for in normal procedures.
The pilot was attempting to do a "floater" landing called for by his company procedures.
In his anxiety and focus to do this floater he seems to have lost situational awareness and thus landed up much much further down the runway than he ought to have. His only option and salvation was a go around but he did not take it.
Alhuwalia kept asking him to go around a number of times. In the end, at the very last minute, poor Alhuwalia the co pilot called out "not enough runway left". This must have been when his Captain was about to touch down having already committed the 65-67 odd tons of out of control Boeing to land.
I think maybe he burst some tires on touch down and yawed a bit.
Imagine the situation...
He does not realize that he is out of runway.
He has still touched down. (or rather thumped it down) Did tires blow?
The aeroplane yaws a bit.
The reversers kick in.
He cancels the reversers and firewalls the throttles.
He hits the localiser antenna concrete mounting base and sheds a major part of his wing.
He does not have enough speed to lift off again
He goes down the slope under full power.
Even at that late stage after touch down, had he applied full reverse and slowed down, he may, just may, have gone some part way down the fairly gradual slope and stopped with a few if not nil fatalities.
Such is life. A simple go around would have been nice.
-"Not one Foreign CP was ever checked by their Agent for their credentials, experience, References nor seriously probed for their past history before joining.
Foreign Pilots who had an Instructor Rating from Timbuck Too Authority on Piston Aircraft were given TRI Validations on the 737NG by the DGAC and provided their form of training and checking for AXI! These were people who were experts on Carb Heat, now knew all there was about HMU's without looking at one book or receiving any approved TRTO courses!
No interview was ever held nor any sort of serious sim. check to join as a Foreigner.
Initial Line Training for new Foreign CPs consisted usually of 4 sectors - with one night landing that was it and release for flight!
The FO who rightfully knew they were un-stabilized demonstrated the lack of Command Capability (he was doing his UG I believe?) in taking control of the aircraft, instead thought it better to transmit his essentially useless RT or Inter-cocpit calls. We see the price he and all others paid for that decision. Maybe in this case physical intervention or even a slap on the CPs face would have proven to have been the right choice?
Nepotism, favourtism, etc. are factors that led to this. That includes most Managers (all Indians by the way), etc. were in their current positions mainly due to - you guessed it -Vitamin A-! They all knew the current status but it was accepted and allowed to get worse since 2006. Dozens of qualified Foreigners commented on this, but to fall on deaf ears.
During my time there, after dozens of Flight Safety Reports written, many serious QAR violations being recorded by our Safety Dept. on crews. In one 3 month block 6 GPWS Terrain Warning in IMC and the CPs never disconnected the AP and took appropriate actions!
Such items -very very few were ever responded too by Management correctly...... so this all catches up eventiually as we see here.
"At AI the FO's are, at best, given 3-5 take offs and landings a year. Some a lot more, others even less. The omniscient "Commander" will more than likely take all sectors. I do know that expat Capts will be more willing to "give flying" to the FO as that is what they are accustomed to do. The local guys are "accustomed" to a different ideology.
So, when the FO becomes a "Commander" he / she will behave the same way, ie following the "custom" & airline culture that they were bought up in to do all the flying. That is not their fault as they have been treated this way and hence belive "it is the way it should be".
Recency on t/o's & landings, let alone approaches? All waivered and / or covered up by the fraudulent proficiency checks and sims.
So, blame the pilot or blame the system?"
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Hari Nair ji,Hari Nair wrote:
Chetak, the Indian civil flying environment has come in for some serious bashing in the PPRuNE Forum, in their thread for the Mangalore crash. Most comments appear to be from airline pilots who are aware of the Indian system and even if its armchair analyses after the event, their comments are pretty cuttingly incisive. Some not-so-clean linen is being washed there, especially of AI Express. Even if half of it had the element of truth, its all pretty alarming! Certain contributory factors peculiar to AI Express appear to be (quoting from verious posts):
-"Not one Foreign CP was ever checked by their Agent for their credentials, experience, References nor seriously probed for their past history before joining.
Foreign Pilots who had an Instructor Rating from Timbuck Too Authority on Piston Aircraft were given TRI Validations on the 737NG by the DGAC and provided their form of training and checking for AXI! These were people who were experts on Carb Heat, now knew all there was about HMU's without looking at one book or receiving any approved TRTO courses!
No interview was ever held nor any sort of serious sim. check to join as a Foreigner.
Initial Line Training for new Foreign CPs consisted usually of 4 sectors - with one night landing that was it and release for flight!
The FO who rightfully knew they were un-stabilized demonstrated the lack of Command Capability (he was doing his UG I believe?) in taking control of the aircraft, instead thought it better to transmit his essentially useless RT or Inter-cocpit calls. We see the price he and all others paid for that decision. Maybe in this case physical intervention or even a slap on the CPs face would have proven to have been the right choice?
Nepotism, favourtism, etc. are factors that led to this. That includes most Managers (all Indians by the way), etc. were in their current positions mainly due to - you guessed it -Vitamin A-! They all knew the current status but it was accepted and allowed to get worse since 2006. Dozens of qualified Foreigners commented on this, but to fall on deaf ears.
During my time there, after dozens of Flight Safety Reports written, many serious QAR violations being recorded by our Safety Dept. on crews. In one 3 month block 6 GPWS Terrain Warning in IMC and the CPs never disconnected the AP and took appropriate actions!
Such items -very very few were ever responded too by Management correctly...... so this all catches up eventiually as we see here.
"At AI the FO's are, at best, given 3-5 take offs and landings a year. Some a lot more, others even less. The omniscient "Commander" will more than likely take all sectors. I do know that expat Capts will be more willing to "give flying" to the FO as that is what they are accustomed to do. The local guys are "accustomed" to a different ideology.
So, when the FO becomes a "Commander" he / she will behave the same way, ie following the "custom" & airline culture that they were bought up in to do all the flying. That is not their fault as they have been treated this way and hence belive "it is the way it should be".
Recency on t/o's & landings, let alone approaches? All waivered and / or covered up by the fraudulent proficiency checks and sims.
So, blame the pilot or blame the system?"
I have seen many expat pilots put thru sim checks when they first join up. They are under as careful observation as any other pilot until released for command on an Indian carrier. Because they are "outsiders" their performance is constantly under scrutiny, much more so that our Indian pilots who often get away with murder because papa is highly connected.
Any airline Safety Dept will get faqed if it overlooks safety violations as has been falsely made out. The DGCA, Nasim Zaidi is a very clued up chap. Very different from most of his predecessors. Refreshingly different.
The talk that expat log book and medical records are wholesale falsified is patently false and misleading.
It's more than likely to be true for some Indian politician's baccha or bacchi.
In actual fact it is usually an expat who normally allows the Indian co pilot to land. Indian commanders are notorious in their refusal to let their first officers land. Else where it's normal for the Capt and FO to fly alternate legs including landings.
Expat TRIs and TREs are usually conscientious and meticulous. Very very much more than most Indian instructors. There is a cultural difference which we all know about. A full dollars worth of work for a dollar of pay. These expats also sometimes outrightly refuse to pass substandard Indian pilots, adding to their woes which are already considerable.
I have seen Indian instructors clear trainees even without entering the sim. Four hours of verbal bullshit, absolute and unmitigated bullshit, passes for four hours of valuable sim training. No gora will do this.
Of course there are also many excellent Indian pilots as well as TRIs and TREs, needless to say.
Mangalore is a captain only airport for AI express. It is a critical airport on paper but pilots are generally comfortable landing here.
Alhuwalia should have been more forceful but then hind sight is always 20-20. He had left another airline where he had also come up for command upgrade a few times but couldn't make the cut. This may explain his diffidence, fatal as it finally turned out.
Blame the pilot, by all means. The system is infallible as always, no?
Isn't it also the norm when the pilot is dead?? and unable to defend himself?
Alhuwalia did not transmit any of his go around calls.
They were recorded on the CVR.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Speaking of Mangalore , another Mangalore just waiting to happen is Jammu airport, its an AFB currently used by AAI but with Army and IAF presence all round. The "basic" which is supposed to be a minimum of 100mt for a Code C runway is just 15 mt at certain points. The ATC is a mere 30 mt. from the runway and the runway itself is just 2400 mt long. Aircrafts take off right from the tip of the end of the runway and operate with load penalties.
With traffic increasing all the time , an incident is just waiting to happen
With traffic increasing all the time , an incident is just waiting to happen
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Nihat ji,Nihat wrote:Speaking of Mangalore , another Mangalore just waiting to happen is Jammu airport, its an AFB currently used by AAI but with Army and IAF presence all round. The "basic" which is supposed to be a minimum of 100mt for a Code C runway is just 15 mt at certain points. The ATC is a mere 30 mt. from the runway and the runway itself is just 2400 mt long. Aircrafts take off right from the tip of the end of the runway and operate with load penalties.
With traffic increasing all the time , an incident is just waiting to happen
There are many airports like this.
As long as politicians insist on having such "airports" and sometimes even "international" airports in one horse towns, this very situation will always exist.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Er... but deciding to allow a civilian airline flight to take off using most of the runway, is even worse a violation of basic safety than having those flown by pilots who have been 18 hours on the job, hain? Aircraft designers use the criterion that in any airport that is permitted for routine flight, LESS THAN HALF the runway is needed for takeoff at full load, hot day. That's what defines "FULL LOAD". You are NOT supposed to allow anything else, no matter which politician's ass is on board. That is the whole central safety criterion in allowing people to sit in aluminum tubes that one shoots into the air.
That one comment, chetakji, may show the reason for huge concerns. The external posture of most Indian guvrmand agencies is exactly as you have stated. On the books, all the right procedures are there, and everyone is totally trained and informed as to the SOP. They all wear nice uniforms, speak Oxbridge angreji and claim BOOK KNOWLEDGE of everything under the sun. But then they behave like goddamn savages on drugs when it comes to actually FOLLOWING those rules. This is exactly the problem with the huge majority of present-gen desis coming out. Superficially civilized and knowledgeable. Pakistani inside. IOW, NO WAY to trust.
When it comes right down to it and things are seen in the open, the rationalization is
The reality when one actually goes to a guvrmand office is such that Hari Nair's post rings exactly true.
So my guess is that both versions are correct. The procedures are there, and one can see them being followed, outwardly. But I do not see why civil aviation would be all alone in India in actually following procedures all the time, with penalties imposed when they are not followed.
Everything that I have been seeing, ESPECIALLY in the New Improved Free E-con-omy of desh, points to the conditions outlined in HN's post. Including most certainly the standard refusal to investigate and learn the truth and fix it.
I have been observing Kingfisher Airlines recently (not through any desire to do so, but because events forced me to, and I have / will have to fly a lot on their flights). Great smiles. Empty heads. Totally scary lack of discipline or controls in the internal workings of their system. Hope I am not on one of the flights the day that hits the ground and plumes are seen up in the air.
Exactly how is this DOGCA or whatever such a refreshing mint, if he allows airline flights to take off with no margin for engine failure at the rotation speed?
That one comment, chetakji, may show the reason for huge concerns. The external posture of most Indian guvrmand agencies is exactly as you have stated. On the books, all the right procedures are there, and everyone is totally trained and informed as to the SOP. They all wear nice uniforms, speak Oxbridge angreji and claim BOOK KNOWLEDGE of everything under the sun. But then they behave like goddamn savages on drugs when it comes to actually FOLLOWING those rules. This is exactly the problem with the huge majority of present-gen desis coming out. Superficially civilized and knowledgeable. Pakistani inside. IOW, NO WAY to trust.
When it comes right down to it and things are seen in the open, the rationalization is
That's what I was afraid of.V r like that onlee
The reality when one actually goes to a guvrmand office is such that Hari Nair's post rings exactly true.
So my guess is that both versions are correct. The procedures are there, and one can see them being followed, outwardly. But I do not see why civil aviation would be all alone in India in actually following procedures all the time, with penalties imposed when they are not followed.
Everything that I have been seeing, ESPECIALLY in the New Improved Free E-con-omy of desh, points to the conditions outlined in HN's post. Including most certainly the standard refusal to investigate and learn the truth and fix it.
I have been observing Kingfisher Airlines recently (not through any desire to do so, but because events forced me to, and I have / will have to fly a lot on their flights). Great smiles. Empty heads. Totally scary lack of discipline or controls in the internal workings of their system. Hope I am not on one of the flights the day that hits the ground and plumes are seen up in the air.
Exactly how is this DOGCA or whatever such a refreshing mint, if he allows airline flights to take off with no margin for engine failure at the rotation speed?
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Oh, we had the 'aircraft carrier' INS Garuda, from which JetAir and others used to fly the 737-400s with severe load penalties (and IC with A320, CD with 737-200 also). RWY 17/35 is just 1828.8 x 44.2 m. You complain about 2400m?
Had some scary landings there.
Had some scary landings there.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Dileep wrote:Oh, we had the 'aircraft carrier' INS Garuda, from which JetAir and others used to fly the 737-400s with severe load penalties (and IC with A320, CD with 737-200 also). RWY 17/35 is just 1828.8 x 44.2 m. You complain about 2400m?
Had some scary landings there.
You didn't know the half of it, mate.
It also had a displaced threshold!!
and
the upstanding (!) cranes of the port trust would have sunk any single engined go around. The 737-200 would not have coped at the temperatures
that generally prevail at the Garuda airfield.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
I have heard that when they brought some Russian cargo planes in (w/ Russian pilots), the trees in the approach path (not "under" the approach) got seriously trimmed by the wings.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
That is correct.
A russian cargo plane came to deliver the camera equipment for a kirket match, and conducted a tree trimming operation free of cost. Even for a 737, those trees, a rain tree and a mango tree, seemed to be too close to comfort.
A russian cargo plane came to deliver the camera equipment for a kirket match, and conducted a tree trimming operation free of cost. Even for a 737, those trees, a rain tree and a mango tree, seemed to be too close to comfort.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Dileep wrote:That is correct.
A russian cargo plane came to deliver the camera equipment for a kirket match, and conducted a tree trimming operation free of cost. Even for a 737, those trees, a rain tree and a mango tree, seemed to be too close to comfort.
It was an Ukranian Air Force IL-76 ( on a private enterprise charter!!!, with the original markings painted out ) which was on wet lease for carrying three trucks loaded with power generators, broadcast equipment and satellite up linking equipment for coverage of the cricket match series in India at that time.
Its next destination was Ahmedabad I think. It was also carrying about 40 odd broadcast crew including jeff thompson.
They took a wrong turn on the runway after landing and during the taxi, in spite of very clear markings prohibiting such a turn. There must have been a lot of "da, da, nyet, nyet," going on in the cockpit.
The port wing with the leading edge slat still extended hit a fairly thick tree on the port trust road, sliced off a good portion of it, smashed the slat so that it could not be retracted and finally during the 180 turn it pivoted with its wingtip against the same tree and completely smashed that too. It wasn't a pretty sight.
It was during the backtrack, when ATC asked them on the radio if they had been doing any gardening, that the crew actually realized that something was amiss. Some branches were firmly stuck to the wing in the gap between the extended slat and wing. The crew would practically have felt nothing on 200+ ton aeroplane when it actually hit that tree.
This aeroplane was to fly from site to site for every match. It had huge LD clauses for non performance.
The entire setup was managed by a 23 year old tough and very competent british female boss.
By the way, there was no chance of any aeroplane hitting anything on the approach path because the incoming aeroplane would be fairly high over the airfield perimeter on account of the displaced threshold.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
I don't know about the displaced threshold, but the 737s I used to fly in, used to land right at the end.
Your description doesn't match with the geography. There are no taxiways to mistake. You land from the south on RWY35, and turn around at the other end. You backtrack and either get into RWY 13, or the only taxiway to reach the apron. The only place where trees were present was at the south end.
Your description doesn't match with the geography. There are no taxiways to mistake. You land from the south on RWY35, and turn around at the other end. You backtrack and either get into RWY 13, or the only taxiway to reach the apron. The only place where trees were present was at the south end.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Ah.. Cattle class. Here we come. New Saddle seat to cram in more passengers
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Flying from Chennai to Hyderabad last thursday, the Air India operated boeing did not have water in the bathroom/toilets. The airconditioning was not working the vents were not blowing air and imagine the flight out of humid chennai....
SO I told the crew while dis embarking Air India with Air and Water ?
SO I told the crew while dis embarking Air India with Air and Water ?
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
I did not mention any taxiway. I only said runway.Dileep wrote:I don't know about the displaced threshold, but the 737s I used to fly in, used to land right at the end.
Your description doesn't match with the geography. There are no taxiways to mistake. You land from the south on RWY35, and turn around at the other end. You backtrack and either get into RWY 13, or the only taxiway to reach the apron. The only place where trees were present was at the south end.
You landed right at the end because of the displaced threshold.
My description is correct. You may have landed a few times and looked out the cabin window occasionally but I spent years at that place.From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A displaced threshold is a runway threshold located at a point other than the physical beginning or end of the runway. The portion of the runway so displaced may be used for takeoff but not for landing. Landing aircraft may use the displaced area on the opposite end for roll out.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Chetak, since you spent a lot of time there, could you identify where the encounter happened?
Thanx for enlightening on the meaning of displaced threshold. But your claim contradicts your original statement. You said:
Answer is in the picture. It is on the RWY17 end, and it had nothing to do with the trees.
Thanx for enlightening on the meaning of displaced threshold. But your claim contradicts your original statement. You said:
In that case, it will not land at the end, but further inside. So, where is the displaced threshold?By the way, there was no chance of any aeroplane hitting anything on the approach path because the incoming aeroplane would be fairly high over the airfield perimeter on account of the displaced threshold.
Answer is in the picture. It is on the RWY17 end, and it had nothing to do with the trees.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Got a chance to read a report by Hormuz P. Mama, published by the Observer Research Foundation, a think tank in Mumbai. Its on the second airport in Mumbai, and its a detailed analysis of the current locations for the proposed second airport, with the leading site at Panvel.
Some points from the summary: There is no way a second airport can be operational by 2015, when the present one will be fully saturated. The site selected at Panvel has serious ecological problems. Site preparation and airspace planning will also be problematic. The biggest problem that the site faces is the lack of land on the 1140 hectare site. It's two planned 4500 m runways will allow simultaneous, independent operations, but the airport's ultimate capacity may only be about 50 million passengers a year, thus it could be saturated within 25 years of operations. By the time the Panvel airport is saturated, there may not be land to build a third airport.
The other two sites considered are Mandwa-Rewas and Nevali. Mandwa-Rewas is a large 45 sqkm site that can have four runways for simultaneous, independent operations, and large terminal buildings to allow for a max capacity of over 100 mn passengers. It would be easily accessible from Mumbai, no obstacles like hills, little urban growth, clear flight paths, but it would be costlier to build and would require considerable land reclamation. Land reclamation is not a bad thing. consider that the current airport stands on reclaimed land, and so do some of the best airports in Asia.
the Nevali site is 1700 acre, about 50 km from Mumbai, and is not adequate. They say another 2000 acres could be "easily" acquired. Other factors are favorable, and no major obstructions, other than Malangad hills.
Third is that we forgo all this and just share the airport at Pune.
____________________________
The planned capacity of the first phase of the new airport at Panvel is a measely 10 million, when it should be planning for a 100 million! Additionally, this airport project is a first for CIDCO, which has no experience in airport development.
According to the author, the best site is Mandwa-Rewas which was rejected for a number of reasons, and not just technical.
Some points from the summary: There is no way a second airport can be operational by 2015, when the present one will be fully saturated. The site selected at Panvel has serious ecological problems. Site preparation and airspace planning will also be problematic. The biggest problem that the site faces is the lack of land on the 1140 hectare site. It's two planned 4500 m runways will allow simultaneous, independent operations, but the airport's ultimate capacity may only be about 50 million passengers a year, thus it could be saturated within 25 years of operations. By the time the Panvel airport is saturated, there may not be land to build a third airport.
The other two sites considered are Mandwa-Rewas and Nevali. Mandwa-Rewas is a large 45 sqkm site that can have four runways for simultaneous, independent operations, and large terminal buildings to allow for a max capacity of over 100 mn passengers. It would be easily accessible from Mumbai, no obstacles like hills, little urban growth, clear flight paths, but it would be costlier to build and would require considerable land reclamation. Land reclamation is not a bad thing. consider that the current airport stands on reclaimed land, and so do some of the best airports in Asia.
the Nevali site is 1700 acre, about 50 km from Mumbai, and is not adequate. They say another 2000 acres could be "easily" acquired. Other factors are favorable, and no major obstructions, other than Malangad hills.
Third is that we forgo all this and just share the airport at Pune.
____________________________
The planned capacity of the first phase of the new airport at Panvel is a measely 10 million, when it should be planning for a 100 million! Additionally, this airport project is a first for CIDCO, which has no experience in airport development.
According to the author, the best site is Mandwa-Rewas which was rejected for a number of reasons, and not just technical.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Vasu the Mandwa Rewas site is ecologically sensitive and would have many more environmental issues then the Present Navi Mumbai site.The entire CRZ code will have to be rewritten if the site is to be given approval.
Nevali near Kalyan is a site where 1700 acres is readily available, while surrounding land can be aquired the local farmers have opposed it.The Site has already been rejected by the Defence Ministry as a BARC unit is located/under construction there.
There is a third Site near Wada which is being proposed, but lets see.
There is a lot at stake for Sharad Pawar and his cronies who have aquired huge tracts of land near the Navi Mumbai Site(NCP is in power in the Nai Mumbai Municipal Corporation). The Congress goons will not approve it unless they get a share of the booty or unless Sharad Pawar is more amiable to Rajmata/Rajkumar diktats.
Having 2 or even 3 airports in a big city (much less the second largest urban agglomeration in the world) is not only not a bad idea but a practical one.
Nevali near Kalyan is a site where 1700 acres is readily available, while surrounding land can be aquired the local farmers have opposed it.The Site has already been rejected by the Defence Ministry as a BARC unit is located/under construction there.
There is a third Site near Wada which is being proposed, but lets see.
There is a lot at stake for Sharad Pawar and his cronies who have aquired huge tracts of land near the Navi Mumbai Site(NCP is in power in the Nai Mumbai Municipal Corporation). The Congress goons will not approve it unless they get a share of the booty or unless Sharad Pawar is more amiable to Rajmata/Rajkumar diktats.
Having 2 or even 3 airports in a big city (much less the second largest urban agglomeration in the world) is not only not a bad idea but a practical one.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Stick to standard terminology.Dileep wrote:Chetak, since you spent a lot of time there, could you identify where the encounter happened?
Encounter or accident?
I get confused easily.
The wing of the aeroplane crossed and went over the boundary wall and hit a tree on the port trust road because of the wrong turn the trainee captain took. This happened during the rollout after the landing and when the turn was initiated to backtrack and return to the civil dispersal area near the beginning of the runway.
Whats not to understand?
Orient yourself correctly and you will see that the port trust road running parallel to the boundary wall of the airport road is on the left hand side as you land at Garuda airfield. This is the only direction that the commercial jets were allowed to land here or even takeoff.
The displace threshold is because earlier the police used to stop rail and road traffic on the road many times a day to facilitate landing. Hue and cry from the local populace forced the authorities to go for the displaced threshold as the aeroplanes perforce had to always be comfortably and safely clear all manner of trucks, trains etc sometimes carrying outsized cargo on the road / rail during the approach of the aeroplanes.
Thus they had to come in much higher over the actual threshold (beginning of the runway) and always touch down a fair bit ahead up the already dicey runway. Presto displaced threshold.
The pilots were mighty pissed, I can tell you but the situation was fait accompli.
Just to practice only, sometimes the Naval aeroplanes would land and take off from the other end. This was not an option for the IA jets.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Yeah, there is a lot more at stake here than just the environmental, economic and social concerns. According to the report that I had quoted, the author did not make a big issue of the environmental concerns, which I would assume implies that they can be addressed sufficiently. In fact, I thought it was the Panvel site that would cause greater environmental damage.
The major issue with Panvel is that a few hundred hectares of pristine mangroves will have to be destroyed, which the GoM is countering with the offer to replant much more than that at a nearby site. In addition, there are two rivers on the site that will have to be diverted. According to this report in Hindustan Times, Praful Patel is fully committed to the Navi Mumbai site, despite all the environmental concerns.
Now I am no conspiracy theorist, being an NCP politician himself, I wouldn't be surprised if he's invested some of his wealth there as well along with his friend Mr. Pawar.
The major issue with Panvel is that a few hundred hectares of pristine mangroves will have to be destroyed, which the GoM is countering with the offer to replant much more than that at a nearby site. In addition, there are two rivers on the site that will have to be diverted. According to this report in Hindustan Times, Praful Patel is fully committed to the Navi Mumbai site, despite all the environmental concerns.
Now I am no conspiracy theorist, being an NCP politician himself, I wouldn't be surprised if he's invested some of his wealth there as well along with his friend Mr. Pawar.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Indeed!chetak wrote: I get confused easily.
So, let me ask you in simple terms to avoid confusion.
1. Where exactly did the pilot make the 'wrong turn'? Please refer to the picture above.
2. Where exactly was the tree standing? Please refer to the picture above.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
I will not be needled by you any further.Dileep wrote:Indeed!chetak wrote: I get confused easily.
So, let me ask you in simple terms to avoid confusion.
1. Where exactly did the pilot make the 'wrong turn'? Please refer to the picture above.
2. Where exactly was the tree standing? Please refer to the picture above.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Future airplane designs
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotos ... 59458.html
something for singha to enjoy
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotos ... 59458.html
something for singha to enjoy
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionics ... Cap_12.pdf
This is an awesome guide to the FBW system on Airbus A319-40 aircraft. Outside of the Airbus POH, this is an excellent overview of the ELAC , FDC, etc. and the amazing systems that keep multiple redundancy.
This is an awesome guide to the FBW system on Airbus A319-40 aircraft. Outside of the Airbus POH, this is an excellent overview of the ELAC , FDC, etc. and the amazing systems that keep multiple redundancy.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Its either one extreme or the other.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national ... l-crew-957
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national ... l-crew-957
DGCA proposes pre-flight breath analyser test for all crew
September 21st, 2010
New Delhi: In a bid to make air travel more safe, the Civil Aviation regulator has suggested that pilots and cabin crew of all domestic and international flights operated by Indian carriers be subjected to compulsory pre-flight breath analyser test.
According to a new draft which is an extension of Civil Aviation Requirement of 2009 issued by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), all crew of such flights originating in India as well as foreign destinations should be subjected to preflight medical check-up (PFMC) for consumption of alcohol.
Presently, only 60 per cent of the crew, both cabin as well as cockpit, undergo random checks by scheduled operators. The drive is intensified only during festive and new year season.
"For scheduled operator this percentage shall be on daily basis and for other operators like non-scheduled ones, air taxi operators, state government aircraft operators and private category operators, the percentage is be worked out on a 15-calender day basis," says the draft CAR released by the DGCA chief, Mr Nasim Zaidi.
The cabin crew will be subjected to the test twice during a flight. If any member tests positive, he or she will not be allowed to operate the flight.
Even if any of the crew refuses to undergo the PFMC, he or she will be considered alco-positive, says the CAR.
The DGCA has also proposed tough action on those who fail to clear the breath-analyser test.
For first time offenders or if any of the crew refuses to undergo PFMC or breath-analyser test, then "he or she will be kept off-duty and his license will be suspended for a period of three months."
And the licence of the crew will be "permanently cancelled" if they are tested positive during the PFMC for a second time.
"Any member attempting to evade the test procedure by leaving airport premises before undergoing the complete test procedure will be considered to have tested positive," the new proposal says.
In case of an instructor or examiner or check crew, if tested positive during the PFMC then they will loose their rating for at least three years.
The DGCA has also proposed a post flight medical check on the crew, which should be done during their duty hours after disembarkation of passengers, and if found guilty their licence will be surrendered forthwith.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Low cost carrier SpiceJet Ex chief executive officer Sanjay Aggarwal, has been appointed the new chief executive officer of KingFisher Airlines today
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
India’s very own Regional Transport Aircraft, or RTA, is taking shape. This is notwithstanding the criticism heaped on the indigenous small passenger aircraft programmes like Saras and Hansa.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ft/410110/
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ft/410110/
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
AI flights to US to be made non-stop
Starting October 31, Air India is converting all its flights to destinations in the US — John F. Kennedy airport in New York, Newark’s Liberty International Airport, Chicago’s ’Hare airport — as well as Toronto into non-stop flights that will bypass Europe altogether.
Confirming the development, an Air India spokesperson said: “Flights from the gateway points in India to the US will become non-stop. However, once these flights touch down in India they will connect to multiple destinations.”
For instance, it is learnt that daily flights from JFK to Delhi will fly up to Mumbai and Toronto-Delhi flights will continue to Amritsar. The Chicago-Delhi flights will head to Hyderabad while the non-stop flight from Newark to Mumbai will have a service to Ahmedabad.
By shutting down the Frankfurt hub, the loss-laden state-owned carrier will save roughly Rs 200 crore a year in costs.
The airline has already shut down its London-New York service that caused much concern, especially in north India, as it was a route that had started in 1955 and appealed to Indian holiday-makers who preferred to visit family and relatives in London before proceeding to the US.
“The move defies all logic,” said a source associated with the airline. “It will only increase the financial burden on Air India that has been suffering a loss of Rs 250 crore a year each on the Mumbai-New York and Delhi-New York non-stop routes.”
The losses on these routes could not be ascertained.
Sources also said that unlike other large Indian private carriers which had managed to lease out their wide-bodied Boeing 777s to foreign airlines, Air India hadn’t been able to find any takers for more than a year.
It is expected that Air India will fly its 238-seater Boeing 777-200 LRs and its 342-seater Boeing 777-300 ERs to the United States. LR stands for long range and ER for extended range.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
From Aviation Week
Kingfisher Moves Closer To Oneworld
Kingfisher Moves Closer To Oneworld
Kingfisher Airlines has received clearance from India’s Ministry of Civil Aviation to join Oneworld, a key condition for the carrier to become part of the alliance.
The contract was signed by Kingfisher Airlines’ Chairman and CEO Vijay Mallya and his counterparts from all 12 Oneworld partners and members-elect.
“We are very pleased to have gained regulatory approval so quickly from New Delhi to add Kingfisher Airlines to Oneworld — and we intend to move ahead with its implementation just as speedily and smoothly,” Willie Walsh, CEO of sponsor British Airways, said.
A memorandum of understanding was signed in late February. The implementation program is already underway as six alliance carriers will start to share Kingfisher Airlines’ new lounge at New Delhi next month and British Airways will launch code sharing flights with a new partner later this month. Kingfisher will bring 56 cities onto the Oneworld map, all of them in India.
The BA prefix will be added to flights by the Indian airline to various points across the Indian sub-continent, with Kingfisher Airlines’ IT designator placed on services operated by BA to key cities in Europe.
The process to bring any airline on board any alliance normally takes 18 to 24 months to complete. The complex project involves connecting all the alliance recruit’s IT systems to those in all other Oneworld airlines, bringing its customer service, frequent flyer and distribution processes into line with Oneworld standards and culminating in what will be the biggest training and communications programs in the airline’s history.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
Strong indications that Gopinath and Ambani are to start a new passenger airline on completion of Gopinath's non compete clause with Vijay Mallya.
Likely to start early in the new year. Looking like a vengeance issue
Ambani already has a substantial investment in Gopinath's cargo airline Deccan 360.
Likely to start early in the new year. Looking like a vengeance issue
Ambani already has a substantial investment in Gopinath's cargo airline Deccan 360.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
First hotels and now aviation.
Taking all the businesses of the two brothers, they could create a mini-socialist nation providing everything and anything.
Taking all the businesses of the two brothers, they could create a mini-socialist nation providing everything and anything.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
groceries, shoes, medicines, jewelry, clothing, electronics - check
petroleum and oil products - check
phone & internet service -check
mutual funds - check
they need to enter the defence industry and construction industry next.
petroleum and oil products - check
phone & internet service -check
mutual funds - check
they need to enter the defence industry and construction industry next.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/indian-pilot ... ml?from=tn
Indian pilot dies of heart attack mid air
CNN-IBN
Posted on Oct 14, 2010 at 08:29
Kuala Lumpur: A Qatar Airways aircraft enroute from Manila to Doha made an emergency landing at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport (KLIA) on Wednesday, after one of its pilots died of a heart attack mid-air.
A spokesman for the airways said the pilot, a 43-year-old Indian national, complained of chest pain and the co-pilot requested to land at KLIA around 11.30am.
"The plane, an A330 Airbus with about 250 passengers on board, landed here while a medical team was on standby.
"The pilot was pronounced dead and the airlines took immediate steps and changed the entire crew before the aircraft took off at 1.15pm," he said.
Sepang police chief Supt Zahedi Ayub, when contacted, said the pilot's body was taken to the Serdang Hospital for a post mortem and the results showed that he had died of heart failure.
Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion
sheesh and only 43 years old...I am 38 ... RIP brother.