Indian Army: News & Discussion

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Sep 2010 07:37

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 Sep 2010 04:08

No ‘Cold Start’ doctrine, India tells US

The US had taken up concerns by Pakistan on the perceived ‘Cold Start’ strategy of the Indian Army that envisages rapid deployment of troops on the western border to escalate to a full blown war within days but has been told that such a doctrine does not exist but is a term that has been fabricated by think tanks.

The matter was repeatedly taken up by senior US Defence delegations after Pakistan voiced concerns that diverting more troops to the Afghan border would not be feasible given the Indian ‘Cold Start’ strategy that could bring offensive elements of the Indian Army to its eastern border within four days.

While the US has been assured that no such doctrine exists, the Army has now come on record to say that ‘Cold Start’ is not part of its doctrine. Army Chief General V K Singh has told this newspaper that India’s basic military posture remains defensive.

I am rally confused with the above statement.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 Sep 2010 06:25

Ajatshatru wrote:Even if the IA has such a doctrine, I don't see any reason why it should be of any other country's concern.

Because the Army publicly claims a defensive/counter-offensive strategic posture, which in turn is propagated by the foreign ministry to every country India has defense relations with? If the posture changes, it is generally relayed out to all partners. Some hypotheses of the so-called "Cold Start" came as close to a pre-emptive stance as they could, without being explicitly so, which would have marked a radical shift in India's posture. It thus became incumbent on the Army brass to come out and declare what exactly was their stand.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2010 08:26

VinodTK wrote:No ‘Cold Start’ doctrine, India tells US
I am rally confused with the above statement.

Well the answer is there on page 2

India is a peace loving nation and does not covet any territory,” he said.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 Sep 2010 16:57

shiv wrote:
VinodTK wrote:No ‘Cold Start’ doctrine, India tells US
I am rally confused with the above statement.
Well the answer is there on page 2
India is a peace loving nation and does not covet any territory,” he said.

Funny, but not really. Our own Brig Ray had given the answer here before, as had Maj. Gen (ret) Ashok Mehta in articles cited here before - yet people chose to ignore it and engage in their own fanciful day dreams of what Cold Start, IBGs, etc ought to be rather than understand what they actually are. So let us at least now highlight what it actually means:

“There is nothing called ‘Cold Start’. As part of our overall strategy we have a number of contingencies and options, depending on what the aggressor does. In the recent years, we have been improving our systems with respect to mobilisation, but our basic military posture is defensive,” the Army Chief told The Indian Express.

To rehash the pertinent points of what the Mehta article and Ray's posts mentioned:

* At the strategic level (from the Mehta article): Indian military mobilization was found wanting as early as mid-1990s after tri-service exercises and evaluations. The declared nuclear overhang, Kargil War and OP Parakram came after the problem had been recognized.

* At the operational level (from Ray's posts): Indian Army "Holding Corps" need to acquire additional mobility and firepower assets, train with them regularly, and be prepared to engage in limited counter-offensive action in narrow time-window.

The security outlook in the region is in a major flux, so no significant changes will be made until a clearer picture of threats and capabilities emerge. Expect the picture to start clearing up once the ISAF contingents start withdrawing from Afghanistan.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Sep 2010 18:23

At this rate , Paki will complain about the very existence of Indian Army and then US will ask India why does IA exist ,apologetically MEA will tell US there is no such thing as Indian Army what you see is just some green clad men with some guns in their hands and they are seen in border areas and sometime during Republic Day in Delhi.

There is no such thing as Indian Army we are peace loving people we dont need Army , what we have are just peace loving Sadhus and you can find them in plenty in religious places and foot step of Himalayas.

Satisfied US will tell Paki to stop worrying.

nits · Post by **nits** » 09 Sep 2010 18:30

Austin wrote: what you see is just some green clad men with some guns in their hands and they are seen in border areas and sometime during Republic Day in Delhi. Satisfied US will tell Paki to stop worrying.

Very well said Austin Sir...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Sep 2010 19:00

america should gift us 1600 SH60 helicopters so that indian army can deploy peacefully more away from border.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 09 Sep 2010 19:53

Since 2004, yindoo army has been trying to perfect the Cold-Start doctorine and numerous references to that effect have been released by senior military officials actively involved in such maneuvers. Last time yindoo army moved around an Integrated Battle Group in a exercise, IAF launched 130 combat sorties in support of that IBG in just a few days.

My third cousin (twice removed) who is having an affair with the chai-walla's wife tells me the doctorine exists for sure, but it is no longer referred to by its former mean and aggressive title of "Cold-Start".

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 09 Sep 2010 20:28

[quote="putnanja"]Amphibious ICV tested in Medak

[quote]

I don't understand what kind of quality is so facinating for IA in this low armous ICV. Since it will get blow up with simple rocket attack, let alone its ability to engage Anti Tank Missile.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Sep 2010 22:32

Well, the most findamental requirement was to transport the Infantry at the same pace at which Armor Columns could exploit defences. To ensure that one could really implement the tenents of Maneuver Warfare.

You can do that in a normal truck or the half-tracks of WWII if the terrain permits - but more often than not, it does not. for a simple reason that Tanks can go where ever they please. So, people thought of a fully tracked troops carrier and since these were to follow tanks into the actual combat zone, they added some sembelance of armor and presto, you had an Armored Personnel Carrier (APC). The first true blue APC was M113 and was rightly called Battle Taxi....it transported men into thick of battle, they got out and fought like normal Infantry.

Some one (the Russians, actually) thought of making the humble Battle-Taxi into a something which cold provide integral fire-support to the troops and had some defensive measures against tanks - in addition to keeping pace with MBTs. And we had the first Infantry Combat Vehicle (ICV) - BMP-I. Armed with 76mm gun and ATGM. Plus, the troops could fire while sitting inside the BMP-I (theoretically, at least). Later, they replaced the 76mm gun with 30mm Rapid Fire Cannon.

Now, enter the Americans. As usual, they wanted the best of the best from their system. And we have the M3 Bradley IFV - with the whole gamut of optro-electronics and ATGM and 25mm Cannon. And of course, it had more muscles than the Russian ICV and had more armor.

Having said that, modern ICV tend to tip the scale at 25+tonnes - with modular armor options available for something like Built-Up area operations. But all said and done, ICV are toast against modern tandem warhead ATGM and something like RPG-29. Better armor gives more protection but not neccessarily, impunity.

So, while it is advisable to have better equipped/armored ICV, it does not neccessarily mean that having BMP-II is bad. The modern ICV RFP floated by IA will address these issues.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 10 Sep 2010 02:23

From Medak Arcticle quoted above

Is this the Uber TFTA lady Vinyaka ? All power to her..
From link reproduced below
http://hindu.com/2009/07/20/stories/200 ... 160400.htm

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 10 Sep 2010 05:25

Indian troops on alert as border dispute with China heats up

Official sources said India was making preparations to deploy its strategic Agni II intermediate-range ballistic missiles and Prithvi III surface-to-surface ballistic missiles to the Chinese border.
An unspecified number of missile units under the Strategic Forces Command, which controls India’s nuclear arsenal, had recently been placed under the army’s Eastern Command, which has responsibility for managing the Chinese threat.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Sep 2010 07:52

3 Troops Killed in Blast in Army Vehicle in Kashmir

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Sep 2010 07:52

Jammu-Poonch Highway: IED Defused, Tragedy Averted

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2010 22:05

Nightwatch 9 Sept., 2010

...

Comment: Ignoring the public relations bravado, Turgeman divulged some of diagnostic information when he said a reservist brigade had been recalled to engage in live fire training. The language is ambiguous because all reservists must undergo annual training. Still this training seldom is reported, if ever.

Two data points stand out. First is the mention that a large reserve combat maneuver unit is training apparently as a unit. Most national forces train reserve units in thirds.

In India, for example, it will take three years for all units of an active duty division to accomplish the complete training regimen for a division. Reserve units take longer.

.....

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 11 Sep 2010 11:01

Military personnel unhappy with UPA policies:

What has infuriated the military is the parroting of the Valley Sunni line by Home Minister P Chidambaram (ever-focussed on winning brownie points with the United States) and the silence of Defense Minister A K Antony over the frequent criticisms of the military and the uniformed services generally—this at a time when more than 700 members of these services have been hospitalized for serious injuries sustained during the intifada. There’s also anger that thus far, no VIP has bothered even to enquire properly about these men, much less visit them in hospital.

Those on the field say that it’s only a matter of time before a revolt takes place within the uniformed services—not just in Kashmir, but in other parts of India, where the present government is adopting a policy of hunting with the hounds and running with the hares.

But given the multiple arrests and other disciplinary action against uniformed personnel (which they contrast with the kid-glove treatment meted out to the intifada leadership), the time may be approaching when the hounds refuse to hunt. Instead, they may decide to step back to let Kashmir's political leadership and its Delhi backers face the consequences of a policy of winks and nods to pro-Pakistan elements seeking to prise Kashmir loose from India through international intervention.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 11 Sep 2010 21:40

The said leaders are not in position of power there in a vacuum. They are there because of the involvement or non-involvement of India's citizens. How many of you here in this forum voted in the last election? How many of you did not vote? How many of you voted not for principles but for convenience. India will prevail or perish due to the peoples' involvement or non-involvement.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 12 Sep 2010 04:39

not sure if this should go to the humour thread.
is this for real?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Sep 2010 05:31

^^^The video is real (from one of the jt. USMC-IA exercises in Belgaum) but the person who posted it put in some juvenile crap in it - such idiotic "WE AAARREEE THEEE BEEESSST TFTA NA-MARDS" stuff is best left to the pakis.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Sep 2010 08:43

Any news regarding L&T Amphibious Missile Carrier ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Sep 2010 09:34

AdityaM wrote:not sure if this should go to the humour thread.
is this for real?

indian soldier must have had oodles of practice on the rig and obviousl they selected the champion guy and sent him there to show off...

The yank soldier must have thougth "WTF..? who made me volunteer for this s**t?"

I remember for one of my SSBs there was the commando bridge - but at a mere 10 feet high.. and surpisingly easy once you got on top...

vic · Post by **vic** » 12 Sep 2010 09:43

I think that even the US soldier did well. Also if you listen carefully some of the ribbing is being given in US accent, so it was perhaps some sort of lighter moments

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 12 Sep 2010 12:15

Ouch! That must have hurt, the way he jumped!

He was having fun too. But then, its funny, he didn't know how to monkey crawl! Or was that deliberate?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Sep 2010 13:50

AdityaM wrote:not sure if this should go to the humour thread.
is this for real?

The US army trains with our Army for high altitude and low temperature warfare at our Army schools.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 12 Sep 2010 16:21

^ when i said "is this for real", what i mean was that while IA men were doing it so seriously, the US chap was taking it as a joke.
and by not jumping, was he not in a way disobeying orders...
If an indian was to do this, would he not be severely reprimanded ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 Sep 2010 16:49

If this was a joke then I would be very surprised. The Americans are "very" PR savvy and would never willingly do anything in front of the camera which would show them in poor light (specially regarding their physical prowess, training and skill). Have you ever seen any other youtube clip in which Americans "knowingly try" to portray themselves as anything other than hotshots? Note that even when the Marine had made a total fool of himself, he was still trying to look "cool" by doing pull-up on the rope (if this was a joke, the Marine would certainly not have made this poor attempt at looking cool).
Also, cannot say about Americans, but this kind of tomfoolery is not taken kindly to by IA. I seriously cannot imagine any IA soldier (officer or jawan) joking around like this (if the Marine was indeed joking, which I doubt). There would be serious action taken in IA if any soldier was joking around at such exercises.

ADDED LATER: Also, the IA guy giving him advise was dead serious. For eg: He was seriously encouraging him and giving him advices so that he would not get hurt. Also, the way the Marine dropped on water, it would have seriously hurt (even possibly injured) the soldier. I doubt if someone would want to suffer that much pain just for fun. Go to any swimming pool and dive incorrectly at half the height here and you would know what I mean. It literally feels like it is better to die than to suffer that agonizing pain.

Also, going by the crowd and the Indian instructors voice, it was a proper exercise and if there was a joke then the Indians were surely not told about it. So, if this was indeed a joke, then IMO it is an even more serious problem because a person can be made a master of any obstacle course by practice but it takes much more effort to remedy bad attitude and indiscipline in the force.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 12 Sep 2010 18:00

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2505/dsgfdsagfsd.jpg

Is there something strange with this tank ?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Sep 2010 18:46

A reminder to all.. please keep politics out of the military forum

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Sep 2010 19:13

Marten wrote:Seemed like a deliberate attempt to play the fool. All in good spirit!

Well the US guy has more fat and was unbalanced (a bit) - but he is fit enough to do it which is pretty fit. The jump was silly - he could have hurt himself - I would have though a straight, feet down jump would have been the safest.

I think he was being a sport despite knowing that he was unaccustomed to that sort of stuff. That stunt is wild - wild way out stuff. If this is ordinary training - wow!

You have to be seriously fit even to do it badly.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Sep 2010 19:13

jamwal wrote:http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2505/dsgfdsagfsd.jpg

Is there something strange with this tank ?

Looks like a tank with some mine clearance sort of attachment and rubber mud-skirts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Sep 2010 20:10

well , a strong looking lad there...takes serious arm muscle to hang up there so long and not afraid of the steep drop.

B for obeying orders, A for balls (if this was the first time he was doing it)

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 12 Sep 2010 21:26

Singha wrote:well , a strong looking lad there...takes serious arm muscle to hang up there so long and not afraid of the steep drop.

B for obeying orders, A for balls (if this was the first time he was doing it)

The marine is clearly having fun...it seems to be an exhibition of sorts. The Indians may have trained for that exercise. This may have been a new environment for the american, and rather than compete against the Indian soldier...decided to lighten up. If anything, it shows the americans can laugh at themselves.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Sep 2010 21:53

jamwal wrote:http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2505/dsgfdsagfsd.jpg

Is there something strange with this tank ?

Nothing, as far as I can make out.

If you're concerned about the part right above wheels - Those are side skirts and are not made of metal.Toughened rubber or something. As for the stuff in the front - that, is a mine plow. Used to make channel through a mine field. Basically, digs up the mines in front and throws them sideways. Used by Armored Corps and Assault Engineer chaps.

Please to check the IA T-72 here: http://southasiarev.files.wordpress.com ... 2-tank.jpg

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 12 Sep 2010 23:45

Side skirts pbly designed to deflect/misdirect shaped charges. Israeli tanks use metal beads.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Sep 2010 00:05

That USMC chap is on the LEDO tank at the Junior Leaders Commando school in Belgaum - its supposed to be more of an exercise for enhancing mental confidence. If you are reasonably fit (even according to middle-aged SDRE standards) you can probably do the swimming, monkey crawl and jumping part but then the main problem is that extreme height, the narrow swaying plank and the wind.

I remember in some video, the instructor in charge of the exercise (a Sardar ji) proclaiming to the hapless commando trainee hanging on the rope (and hope) before the final jump - "What are you afraid of, water is soft!"

Falling from that height water is as hard as concrete if you dont go down straight as an arrow.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 14 Sep 2010 00:14

^^^^^^^^^^

Prahaar and Nana Patekar... "two by two"...brings back fond memories of the movie...

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 14 Sep 2010 00:25

The sdre soldier did it robotically, marching straight and all. Must have practiced it a zillion times. The amirkhan must have been going, "wtf??".

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Sep 2010 01:15

The SDRE Soldier from the look of it was an Instructor at the School and an Officer. It is not about practice. They don't allow you to practice and then do it. The first time you do it as a soldier is the first time they allow you on that Ledo Jump platform. The Instructor would have done the exercise as demo for this students.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Sep 2010 01:40

Whats "Ledo"? TIA