Small Arms Thread

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 16 Aug 2010 22:51

Now 'Dirty Harry' bullet to kill Taliban http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20100815/88 ... lib_1.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Sep 2010 23:45

Are there rubber bullets for 7.62mm for use in civil riots situation?

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 16 Sep 2010 01:10

ramana wrote:Are there rubber bullets for 7.62mm for use in civil riots situation?

IIRC, rubber bullets used for controlling riots etc are closer to 12.5mm (or more) to reduce possibility of penetration.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Sep 2010 06:36

OK. Can a rubber slug be developed asap for a 12 bore or 0.410 shotgun?

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 06:41

ramana wrote:OK. Can a rubber slug be developed asap for a 12 bore or 0.410 shotgun?

Not rubber. It's all bean bags nowdays in shotties.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 20 Sep 2010 20:16

Was surfing the web when I came across this site. One of its banner had this photograph which in all probability is of Indian troops and caught my eye:

Look at the second gun to the right. Is that Steyr Aug? Since when did we start using them? Which unit?

And which is the gun in the front? An M4 with an UBGL?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Sep 2010 20:31

First one seems like a M-16 Varient. The other gun is Def AUG.. but not a gun any Indian Sec Forces use. AFAIK.. Could this picture be off pakistani troops?

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 20 Sep 2010 20:37

Doesn't look like an IA Unit...more like the SAS...German Army camo...

1.Weapons not being standard issue is the first clue.
2.Camo and clothing (Notice the T-Shirt) with an overalapping camo jacket....not standard @ IA.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Sep 2010 20:45

Doesn't look like an IA Unit...more like the SAS...German Army camo...

1.Weapons not being standard issue is the first clue.
2.Camo and clothing (Notice the T-Shirt) with an overalapping camo jacket....not standard @ IA.

Quite the opposite.. Weapons not being standard issue is a hallmark of Indian SF. The Brits use the 203s as Standard Issue AR for the SAS. .. And Camo and Clothing (with T-Shirt) also seem Indian SF.

That being said..the other pics on the website are all Non IA

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 20 Sep 2010 20:59

^^^
Think these are pakistani SF.

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 20 Sep 2010 21:44

Malaysian army. The picture is of CARAT Malaysia 2008.
The reasons:
1. Zoom in the picture. You will notice fingers which look southeast/east asian. The red shoulder patch.
2. List of users of steyr AUG in south east aisa. & using M16.

In fact the photo of M16 users has the original picture of which above picture is cropped from.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 20 Sep 2010 22:02

Bang On Ashu...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CARAT ... 568%29.jpg

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 05 Oct 2010 06:25

US sniper rifle cartridge upgrade...
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AME&s=LAN

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Oct 2010 11:11

Colt is slowly releasing public info about multi caliber weapon CM 901. I think that DRDO is working on the same concept and that is what the army may be wanting in its RFP

DefenseReview.com Exclusive on the Colt Modular Carbine (CMC) CM901 Multi-Caliber Rifle

Now Colt has introduced their solution with the CM901 Colt Modular Carbine and DefenseReview.com was lucky enough to get an exclusive look at this new rifle.

“Modular” and “multi-caliber” are actually understatements, since the CM901 is, hands, down, the most versatile battle rifle/assault rifle we’ve ever seen in both respects. The heart of this versatility lies in the combination of the patent-pending AR (AR-10/AR-15)-format “universal” multi-caliber lower receiver and conversion system and Colt Defense’s various AR operating systems and uppers, which allows the end-user to configure the gun in so many mission-specific ways, it’s almost mind-boggling. The CM901 provides a truly sumptuous feast of versatility with regard to configuration options.

..........

2) The CM901 multi-caliber battle carbine can be configured in any/every caliber between 7.62×51mm NATO (7.62mm NATO)/.308 Win. and 5.56×45mm NATO (5.56mm NATO)/.223 Rem., including 6.8 SPC (6.8×43mm SPC) and 6.5 Grendel, depending on what U.S. military end-users require. To switch from 7.62mm to 5.56mm, just push out the two receiver pins, take the 7.62×51mm upper module off, slap the 5.56mm upper module on, push the two receiver pins back in, and you’re good to go.

3) The CM901 universal lower receiver will accept any/all legacy MILSPEC 5.56mm NATO AR rifle/carbine/SBR upper receivers already in the U.S. military inventory, including the, Colt M4/M4A1 Carbine 14.5″ AR carbine , M4 Commando 11.5″ AR SBR, MK18/CQBR (Close Quarters Battle Receiver) 10.3″ AR SBR, and M16A3/A4 20″ DGI rifle uppers. The CM901 lower will also accept the Colt LE6940 16″ monolithic upper and Colt LE6920 16″ M4/M4A1 Carbine-type uppers. Thus, 5.56mm barrel length is determined by whatever AR upper you want to use.

5) The CM901 sports fully ambidextrous controls a.k.a. “full ambi controls”, including ambidextrous safety/selector switch, bolt catch hold-open/release lever, and magazine release button.

................

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Oct 2010 11:14

http://www.defensereview.com/dr-exclusive-scar-who-meet-the-colt-cm901-modular-multi-caliber-7-62mm-nato5-56mm-nato-battle-carbinesbrrifle-for-u-s-military-special-operations-forces-sof-and-general-infantry-forces-gif/

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 19 Oct 2010 11:46

Upgrade kits for M4 Sniper Rifle come in 2011

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2010 10:16

ArmenT Check this out:

S&W .50 Cal handgun

Muzzle Energy ~2600 ft-lbs

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Nov 2010 10:49

^^^
Thank you very much sir. That info will come in handy when I incorporate some sections on large calibers on the website. By the way, I wrote some details about one of the weapons mentioned in the article (S&W Model 29, the Dirty Harry revolver), as well as 500 cal. revolvers in this article

By the way, would love to hear your opinion on the work so far. Please send all criticisms to brfcompendium @ gmale

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2010 21:32

ArmenT, I sure will.

Re the S&W 50 cal, I think the technolgy of making the entire frame take the recoil will be used in bigger rifles to get better performance.

Try to get more info on how it was done so we understand future developments.

Absorbing 2600 ft-lbs from a hand gun is impressive.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 28 Nov 2010 16:47

x-posting from International Military Discussion Thread.

Interesting bit of news. Floating Body Armour
Quote:
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20101128/161528969.html

wig · Post by **wig** » 29 Nov 2010 09:26

the AK-47 russian origin assualt rifle is/has been modified to fire rubber bullets

This will soon be a reality with trial runs for firing such bullets from Kalashnikov automatic rifles to control mobs having been completed.

A decision to this effect was taken here during a meeting of senior officials of the Ministry of Home Affairs which has constituted a special group for analysing various methods needed for controlling violent crowds with least force in the backdrop of large-scale violence in the Kashmir Valley this summer, official sources said here today.

The sources said the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has conducted the field trials for using the weapons, first of which were introduced in 1947.

They would be seen in action soon particularly in the Valley, they said.

The use of rubber bullets will lessen the risk of fatalities while controlling crowds, the sources said.

The rubber bullets from the AK-47 rifles may not prove fatal if not fired from a close range and if they don't hit a vital organ, the sources said.

Another riot controlling device that has been cleared is the 'dazzler' which uses laser beams to disperse mobs by causing temporary blindness.

These may be handed over to security forces operating in Kashmir-like situations soon, the sources said.

The ‘dazzler’ may help in restricting stone pelters as it can be used towards individuals, rendering them temporarily blind. These devices can be useful in restricting mobs between a range of 50 metres to 250 metres.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101129/nation.htm#10

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2010 23:54

^^^
Good news. Atleast misguided youths won't get killed and get only sore welts.
Please x-post in the J&K thread also.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 30 Nov 2010 00:31

Question..Wouldnt the Muzzle velocity of the AK be a bit high for rubber bullets..as in wouldnt it still do serious (lethal) damage to person.. it does it not matter..

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 30 Nov 2010 01:00

rkhanna wrote:Question..Wouldnt the Muzzle velocity of the AK be a bit high for rubber bullets..as in wouldnt it still do serious (lethal) damage to person.. it does it not matter..

What do you mean by "rubber bullets"? The standard WP steel core bullets replaced by hard rubber bullets will still kill if they hit a soft spot on the head or neck (Israelis saw that with their rounds fired from M4s). But that is not what is usually meant in the riot-control context - it is usually a rubber baton/bag that is propelled by the gas from a blank cartridge. It dissipates a good deal of its energy before hitting a target and is thus non-lethal.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 30 Nov 2010 01:54

it is usually a rubber baton/bag that is propelled by the gas from a blank cartridge. It dissipates a good deal of its energy before hitting a target and is thus non-lethal.

yea but u cant shoot a bean bag out of an AK.. ShotGuns are used for that. So back to my question..How do you convert an AK to fire non lethal AMMO unless its WAX. Hence my original question.

From Wiki

The rubber riot control bullet is part of a long line of development of non-lethal riot control cartridges that dates back to the use of short sections of broom handle fired at rioters in Singapore in the 1880s.[1] The British developed rubber rounds to replace the wooden rounds, where they were widely used in Northern Ireland.[6]
Israeli rubber bullets are produced in two main types. The older type, the standard rubber bullet, is a 2 cm steel sphere coated in a thin layer of rubber, weighing 14 grams, while the new improved rubber bullet, introduced in 1989, is a rubber coated metal cylinder 1.7 cm in diameter, weighing 15.4 grams.[7] These bullets are fired from a special adapter attached to the muzzle of a rifle, similar to those used to launch rifle grenades. The rubber bullets are loaded into the front of the adapter, and propelled with a blank cartridge.[citation needed] Lethal injuries are often the result of head injuries caused by misuse.[7]

Smaller rubber bullets are used in riot shotguns, and are available in a variety of types. One company, for example, makes both rubber buckshot rounds, containing 15 8.3mm diameter rubber balls per cartridge, and rubber baton rounds, containing a single 4.75 gram projectile.[8]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2010 02:37

So it needs an adapter like a projector?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 30 Nov 2010 04:33

So it needs an adapter like a projector?

Thats what i always thought..Thats why i am confused about this news about the AK...

wig · Post by **wig** » 30 Nov 2010 17:25

rakshaks might find the following figures published by the Press Information Bureau of interest;

Details of Ordnance Factories manufacturing small arms:-
S.No.
Factory
Product
1.
Rifle Factory Ishapore
5.56 mm INSAS Rifle, 9 mm Pistol Auto sporting weapons e.g. .315 Rifle, .22 sporting Rifle, 0.22 Revolver etc.
2.
Small Arms Factory Kanpur
5.56mm INSAS Rifle, 5.5.6 INSAS LMG, 9 mm Carbine, 7.62 mm MMG and .32 Revolver etc.
3.
Ordnance Factory Tiruchirapalli
7.62 mm SLR Rifle, 5.56 mm INSAS Rifle, .315 Sporting Rifle
In addition the following factories also manufacture Sporting Small Arms/Weapons for civil Trade
Factories
Product
Gun Shell Factory, Cossipore
.32 Pistol
Field Gun Factory, Kanpur
.32 Revolver
Machine Tool Protype Factory, Ambarnath
.32 Revolver
The annual production of small arms in Ordnance Factories mainly depends on the indent/requirement projected by the indentors. However, the average annual production of such Small Arms in the above factories is given below:-
Weapon
Average annual production in Nos.
7.62 mm SLR Rifle 4,500
5.56 mm INSAS Rifle 90,000
9 mm Pistol Auto 10,000
5.56 mm LMG 7,500
.315 SP Rifle 14,000
.22 SP Rifle 1,000
.22 Revolver 1,000
7.62 mm MMG 300
9 mm Carbine 10,000
.32 Revolver 20,000
.32 Pistol 6,300

http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=0

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Nov 2010 17:29

the adapter bleeds off energy at the muzzle so reducing the rubber bullet velocity

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Dec 2010 03:48

^^^ But the rubber bullet/baton/bag is the same diameter as an AK Round to be fired from an AK barrel?!!! what i thought is that u need an attachment like a small UBGL or a seperate weapon to fire it.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 02 Dec 2010 10:02

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101201/sc ... fghanistan

After years of development, the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System, about the size of a regular rifle, has now been deployed to US units on the battlefields of Afghanistan, where the Army expects it to be a "game-changer" in its counterinsurgency operations.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 02 Dec 2010 13:47

DRDO developing futuristic rifles for Army

The DRDO is working on a Future-INSAS rifle to go along with the under-development future infantry soldier project that the Indian defence establishments are currently working on, DRDO's Chief Controller of Research and Development (Armament and Combat Engineering) S Sunderesh said here today.

It is also working on a new single-hand operated carbine, he said.

INSAS stands for Indian Small Arms System and is a family of infantry arms consisting of an assault rifle, a light machine gun and a carbine.

The 5.56mm by 45mm calibre weapon will be replaced by the Future-INSAS, a prototype for which is currently in development stage.

"We are always trying to incorporate new technology into existing rifle systems. We are currently working on a future INSAS rifle which can be integrated into the Future Infantry Soldier project by including a sensor and a thermal imaging device onto the rifle itself," Pune-based Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) Director Anil M Dattar said.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 02 Dec 2010 18:40

If the 90K INSAS per annum number is true and holds good for many years past, then the INSAS and 5.56x45mm are likely to stick around for a long time, unless something revolutionary comes along. This makes sense, as AFAIK, three more major militaries have committed themselves to at least another 15 years of 5.56x45mm as their primary infantry caliber. The Sterling (9mm carbine) numbers are interesting though, as I had thought its production was slowly coming to a full stop.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Dec 2010 09:18

Indian Army looks for multi caliber Infantry Assault Rifles for FINSAS

By 31 Dec 2010, Indian Army is expecting information on Infantry Assault Rifles from manufacturers. Indian Army is looking for a modern rifle for its FINSAS programme. For the Integrated Sighting System, it is looking at the options of luminous tipped Flip-up iron sights, Holographic Sight / Reflex Sight, Visible Laser Target Pointer / Laser Illuminator and Telescopic Sight.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 22 Dec 2010 09:49

And the Arjun saga continues. I don't understand IA's love for firangi maal and total neglect of indigenous stuff. IN has always been builder's navy, IAF has been falling in line lately with Tejas/ALH/LCH but IA is as stubborn as ever. They don't want Arjun even though it has proved it's mettle but some super duper 40 ton tank with all the gizmos/firepower one can imagine and now this Star wars multi caliber AR for FINSAS. They seem to be least interested in desi maal or evolutionary design. Either they are utterly foolish or corrupt.

Now what to make out of this:

For keeping it light for the soldier, the rifle required is modular and should facilitate replacement of sub assemblies without the use of any specialist tools. IA is also asking is it can have multi caliber barrel change capability. The calibers it is looking at is (aa) 5.56 X 45mm, (ab) 7.62 X 39mm, (ac) 7.62 X 51mm, (ad) 6.8 X 43mm and (ae) 6.5 Grendel.

Who will carry the ammunition for all those calibers? If they want to keep it all light, who will bear the logistics for all those subassemblies for all those calibers? If they really wish to reuse enemy's ammo then why not simply pick up their weapons and use them instead of this complex scheme.

Cheers....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2010 11:58

Perhapse the changes could be made at the base level. IE before going out on partol or deployment.

Lot of advantages to the IA. The Jawan will only have to be trained for one weapon instead 4 diffrent. Simplifying the training for the IA.

Resupply situation can also improve depending upon how simple the midification to the weapon is.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 22 Dec 2010 13:24

Indian Army looks for multi caliber Infantry Assault Rifles for FINSAS

By 31 Dec 2010, Indian Army is expecting information on Infantry Assault Rifles from manufacturers. Indian Army is looking for a modern rifle for its FINSAS programme. For the Integrated Sighting System, it is looking at the options of luminous tipped Flip-up iron sights, Holographic Sight / Reflex Sight, Visible Laser Target Pointer / Laser Illuminator and Telescopic Sight

Look at those requirements! are they asking for something that exists in the market or something custom made?

Guns,bullets,shells, grenades and other mass produced items have a high ROI. They should consider giving the order to DRDO and making these in the country, thus avoiding the huge royalty they are going to pay to the foreign vendor.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2010 13:44

most likely they want rifle and carbine versions of same weapon and different calibers permanently configured with its barrel & matching round will be carried by regular infantry , COIN and armour regiment troops.

I do not see why such a weapon system cannot be developed internally, building on insas and other bases...logical thing than start on some new thread.

provided our design, anyone in the world will be happy to sell as much precision machinery as we want ...

there is scope for tremendous bribery in these deals involving millions of units. PMO should intervene and make sure it stays domestic, pulling in IMI/H&K/FNationale or whoever need to provide technical help or machinery.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 22 Dec 2010 13:52

If the caliber selection is so rigid i.e. at base level before combat then the whole purpose of this multi caliber is defeated. What is the advantage of this against say INSAS 'Family' of weapons. IMO there would be no commonality of training as well because the calibers are so different and the only modules shared would be pistol grip, part of receiver and butt. It would be much better if they could adapt existing INSAS for NATO 7.62X51 round (with heavier barrel for LMG) in addittion to 5.56X45 (both LMG & AR) with quick barrel change. I am wondering whether India even manufactures/uses all the calibers mentioned in the article?

Cheers....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 22 Dec 2010 13:56

No need to be so upset. ADRE Pune has been developing a multi caliber Assault Rifle for some years now with exactly the same specs. That rifle is also for FINSAS program. That means that IA had certainly given ASR to DRDO for this. Perhaps they are facing some difficulity? Perhaps IA just wants to look around too see other options if all else fails? It is worth noting that currently there is no operational assault rifle in the world which satisfies the specs asked for by IA.