MRCA News and Discussion

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Sep 2010 14:11

It does seem a high proportion of twin-seaters. Maybe dedicated for strike role (or nuclear command, as someone said).

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Sep 2010 14:24

GE 414 for LCA Mk2..

Massive win for Unkil.. The SH now has to be the front-runner for MMRCA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 14:30

methinks the two seaters will be primarily SEAD/ELINT birds since being "western" the MRCA will come with a better & newer EW suite than
anything else in IAF today. specialized mission pods and onboard sensors will surely be purchased.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Sep 2010 14:53

especially since nuke delivery is far more guaranteed using missiles

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 30 Sep 2010 15:23

DRDO

GE Aviation lowest bidder for LCA Mk-2 Alternate Engine
The Price Negotiating Committee for the Alternate Engine for LCA Mk-2 has finalised the Comparative Statement of Tenders. The committee Chaired by Dr Prahlada, DS & CCR&D (Ae&SI) had its representatives from Ministry of Defence, Defence Finance, ADA, DRDO, HAL, Indian Air Force, and Indian Navy. After evaluation and acceptance of the Technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. Further price negotiations and contract finalization will follow.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 30 Sep 2010 15:45

Can it be a move for placating uncle so that the MRCA can go to Europe?

venkyt · Post by **venkyt** » 30 Sep 2010 17:06

If we are getting Hornets, then it means MMS & AKA are getting Horny. Or does it mean other way.

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 30 Sep 2010 17:34

IMHO, the hot favorite for MMRCA now will not be the Shornet but the grippen- the reason is simple.

GOI cannot risk the wrath of the opposition and the nation by awarding India's biggest defence deal to the Yanks, so take the next best route available- give it to Saab- politically neutral, yet the Yanks have adequate control given it is their engine that powers the bird. That way MMS and AKA's masters are also happy and the political fallouts also contained.

the general populaiton can be pacified by saying that now the same engine powers both our LCA and the MRCA and hence there is ease of operation, maintenance, costs blah blah.....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 17:51

I doubt the GOI cares about the wrath of the opposition, the public doesnt care.

SH - 85 % , gripen -15%

if at all we be munna, better get the more powerful product atleast.

trushant · Post by **trushant** » 30 Sep 2010 18:03

Be it Sh or Gripen..with this decision to go with GE 414 we have put the most critical component of approx 200-250 of our frontline fighters in the hands of Uncle Sam...no guesses for ToT tangle and yes how can we forget the CISMOA, EUM etc...
The list is endless ...Trenton, P8i, C130J, Minesweepers, Howitzers and now the cherry on the cake... I am damn sure MMS has struck a deal with US for the NSG deal

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 30 Sep 2010 18:15

With regards to deals with US the only opposition would be from PK and ABB & Co...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2010 19:39

What the new engine deal tells you is any thing that meets the requirement and within those the lowest bidder will win.

So the top 3 or 4 that IAF proposes to GOI within that one who bids the lowest will win the MMRCA deal through L1.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 30 Sep 2010 20:07

thinking along the line Mig 35 is surely the lowest bidder - so we know which aircraft is joining as MRCA - AKULA 2 delivered -PAKFA flying and Goroshkov getting ready -the message is clear

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Sep 2010 20:12

AoA, shankarosky has returned.

My own take (or hope?) from the LCA engine result is that the GOI/MoD has actually decided to go clean on both MRCA and LCA engine deals and select the L1 bidder in each case without looking at political considerations. If that is truly the case, I expect GE and Saab to get richer in the next few years.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Oct 2010 03:33

Since we have been speaking about how the selection of LCA engines have a HUGE impact on the choice of MMRCA, I have one question.

How big is the impact of choice of LCA engines on the MMRCA?

If we are acquiring 126 fighters (atleast), considering three engine changes in the lifetime, It means that we would have
for single engined fighters = 378 engines
for double engined fighters = 766 engines

If we are acquiring 200 fighters
for single engined fighters = 600 engines
for double engined fighters = 1200 engines

Wouldn't such numbers, provide enough commonality in themselves?

After all, we have only 53 Mirages, 69-Mig-29s and 139 Jaguars all with their unique engines. Even if we see the new engines for the Jaguars. In spite of the Adour Mk. 951 being produced for the Hawks, Honeywell got the contract over the Adour 821!

I know that commonality of engines between the LCA and the MMRCA will be a plus. But I just don't think that it is a big enough indicator of which way the MMRCA is going. Any thoughts?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Oct 2010 04:00

I think so too, and not to mention the LCA engine is only a temporary measure until the SDRE engine is ready....right?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Oct 2010 04:25

^^^ Hmm I asked the same question in the LCA thread. Will Kaveri have the same mounts as the 414? If not how will they be put into operational airframes? With adapters?

If yes, what are the consequences of that?

P.S. Anyways, lets not discuss LCA's "re-engining" here

.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 01 Oct 2010 09:33

-me too think GOI is going for the lowest bidder -plain and simple and without any political consideration so that the whole deal can be made open to the world - as fa r as we knw about pricing Mig 35 followed by Gripen maybe the order of things - the LCA engined to GE is an indicator US is not in the fray possibly along with 5 more P8 ,Typhoon is expensive we all know that and Rafale well may be the dark horse

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Oct 2010 10:12

Well, to repeat - if it is all about L1 (which it seems to be), then the IAF had better downlist the 35 (if this has not already been done) on technical grounds if it really wants diversification. The Russkies and MiG/UAC will throw in every last bit into the equation (perhaps offer 190-200) to get those $ 10 billion. Will be hard even for Saab to top that. JMT of course.

But it fits in well with recent reports - misgivings expressed by the RuAF bigwig - Zelin for example.

CM.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 01 Oct 2010 10:14

Shankar wrote:-me too think GOI is going for the lowest bidder -plain and simple and without any political consideration so that the whole deal can be made open to the world - as fa r as we knw about pricing Mig 35 followed by Gripen maybe the order of things - the LCA engined to GE is an indicator US is not in the fray possibly along with 5 more P8 ,Typhoon is expensive we all know that and Rafale well may be the dark horse

Applying twisted logic this really makes the Rafale the dark horse

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 01 Oct 2010 11:53

yes it does even to hard core ruskie like shankarosky
IAF initially wanted to go for Mirage 2000 upgraded version so will not be surprised if Rafel gets in some how but like some one said if russians give 200 for the price of 126 well then others have no choice specially now even the Mig 27s going some what bad

Get a feeling this is what exactly is in offer

( we may be in line for another akula 2 and quick delivery of Viky)

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Oct 2010 12:14

If it the number of aircrafts goes to 200 for the price of 126. Will the IAF still buy it. As I have seen news reports stating that the final decision will be based upon building a new startagic relationship with the supplier.

If that is also a criteria then I feel that the contract will be going to the US as that is the only new relationship worth persuing. The EU will not be in aposition to do much stratagicaly. We already have close relationship with the Ruskies with a comitment to the PAK-FA. That leaves the French, they will sell to any one who offers good money to them, so why should any one bother.

So I feel that it will go to one of the teens.

JMT

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 01 Oct 2010 12:26

If MoD is really comitted to L1 as was the case with engine selection then Gripen has the best chance considering its price compettitiveness, engine similarity and weapons package.

Besides, I'm not quite sure how keen IAF remains of double engine fighters which are more or less in the heavy category. Since we ramped up our order for MKi's to 270 and hope to start inducting around 200 FGFA in the next 5-6 years. A future fleet of 450+ heavy fighters is huge as they will continue to remain high maintanence and turn around time would be lesser compared to single engine jets.

Gripen NG certainly has a very good chance now.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 01 Oct 2010 13:13

The engine deal and MRCA are two different sized beasts altogether. A plain L1 will not and can not be the case with MRCA. L1 would point to the Mig - can IAF wait till Mig production starts (~2014)?

This deal is definitely political. And commonality with 414 is a desirable but not a necessary condition for selection of the MRCA. F18 is the only craft which will fit IAFs operational needs and India's political needs.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Oct 2010 13:20

disagree Kailash, industrial integration with EADS is politically far more valuable than hitching up with an obama admin that shows ambivalence to India

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Oct 2010 15:39

GE Aviation Reaffirms Commitment to F414 Engines; Rejects Eurojet Claims as Pointless

The choice of engines to power the HAL Tejas is likely to have a bearing on the USD $10 billion Indian Air Force Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) deal. GE F414's for the HAL Tejas will greatly boost the chances of the fighter jets already powered by GE F414 i.e. Boeing F/A-18 and SAAB Gripen being picked for the Air Force MRCA deal.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4583

jai · Post by **jai** » 01 Oct 2010 16:07

Eurojet executives complain that a revised bid, submitted by them last night, was not taken into account.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=13500

Signs of going political or going by process ? wondering if the vendors were allowed to make another price change after opening of the bids ?

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 01 Oct 2010 17:14

Also posting to LCA thread:

GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program

INDIA, October 01, 2010 – India’s Aeronautical Development Agency has selected 99 nos. F414-GE-INS6 afterburning engines and kits to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force.

Commenting on this development, John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement.“

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-rated F414 model and includes state-of-the-art technology to meet India’s demanding Air Force and Naval requirements. Technical advances include a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and added single-engine safety features.

“We are extremely pleased with the ADA’s decision, and are confident that India’s technical expertise will help enhance the F414-powered LCA’s mission superiority well into the 21st century,” said Tony Mathis, Vice President of Lynn Military Systems programs.

This selection follows earlier orders of 24 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines in 2007, plus an initial 2004 purchase of 17 nos. F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.

With more than one million flight-hours, the F414 engine continues to exceed United States Navy goals for reliability and time on wing. To date, more than 1,000 F414 engines have been delivered, supporting more than 415 aircraft in the fleet.

GE Aviation, an operating unit of GE (NYSE: GE), is a world-leading provider of jet and turboprop engines, components and integrated systems for commercial, military, business and general aviation aircraft. GE Aviation has a global service network to support these offerings. For more information, visit us at www.ge.com/aviation.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Oct 2010 17:26

does F414 choice minimise the airframe changes to the Tejas?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 18:10

well I am sure most of the add ons like gearbox and fadec would be in same relative location to 404 hopefully. but fuselage and surely air intake will need some widening.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Oct 2010 18:41

Lalmohan wrote:does F414 choice minimise the airframe changes to the Tejas?

An unnamed IAF official had this to say from reports last year..

The official said since the F-414 was a "fatter" engine with a bigger diameter, it could require redesigning of fuselage. "And if that happens, then all the test flights, many of which have already been carried out, will have to be repeated and the whole programme could get considerably delayed. It will also escalate the cost."

He said the order for F-414 would also work in favour of HAL and ADA. "It (F-414 order) will mean more money and work for both of them (HAL and ADA) as the aircraft require redesigning. This way we will get more business. Everybody is trying to push their own agenda," he said. "My guess is that F-414 will be thrust upon the IAF despite the fact that they want the EJ200 because Americans are pushing hard for it."

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... s-but.html

James B · Post by **James B** » 01 Oct 2010 18:50

When I checked on wiki the dimensions (length and diameter) of F-414 and F-404, both were identical thorugh F414 was heavier.

# Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
# Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

# Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
# Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F404

Not sure if wiki is totally accurate

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Oct 2010 19:08

James B wrote:When I checked on wiki the dimensions (length and diameter) of F-414 and F-404, both were identical thorugh F414 was heavier.

# Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
# Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

# Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
# Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F404

Not sure if wiki is totally accurate

Here's GE website link with comparisons of their turbofan engines..

http://www.geae.com/engines/military/co ... bofan.html

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 01 Oct 2010 19:29

with ge engines for LCA all the more chance MRCA not going US way that would be putting too many new eggs on an unreliable sanction prone basket- Gripen /mig 35 with Rafale as dark horse ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Oct 2010 20:01

assuming that that the 404 and 414 are built around the same core, the dimensions should be similar...
undoubtedly the flight tests would have to be repeated, as they would for the EJ... so what's that about?!

arya · Post by **arya** » 01 Oct 2010 21:51

Nihat wrote:If MoD is really comitted to L1 as was the case with engine selection then Gripen has the best chance considering its price compettitiveness, engine similarity and weapons package.

Besides, I'm not quite sure how keen IAF remains of double engine fighters which are more or less in the heavy category. Since we ramped up our order for MKi's to 270 and hope to start inducting around 200 FGFA in the next 5-6 years. A future fleet of 450+ heavy fighters is huge as they will continue to remain high maintanence and turn around time would be lesser compared to single engine jets.

Gripen NG certainly has a very good chance now.

what about MiG-35? i think MiG is cheaper then Gripen and very similar to our old bird.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Oct 2010 22:27

Shankar wrote:with ge engines for LCA all the more chance MRCA not going US way that would be putting too many new eggs on an unreliable sanction prone basket- Gripen /mig 35 with Rafale as dark horse ?

absolutely, now get Eurofighter, make an inventory of EJ2000 and make one LCA model flying with it. So just in case if US ditch us then this option will still be open.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Oct 2010 23:23

Austin wrote:What the new engine deal tells you is any thing that meets the requirement and within those the lowest bidder will win.

So the top 3 or 4 that IAF proposes to GOI within that one who bids the lowest will win the MMRCA deal through L1.

I agree. conspiracy theories aside, this means that whoever meets the IAF's requirements and is L1 has the brightest chances of winning. Politics will play a bigger role in that deal than in the engine selection deal, but the winner has to be L1. Typhoons chances are fading fast now with absolutely no chance of it being L1. Gripen NG, F-16 IN, Super Hornet and MiG-35 are the strongest contenders it would appear unless there is a downselect by the MoD.

Its interesting to see BRF becoming a conspiracy theory ridden forum, quite like the Deaf and Dumb forum from across the border.

JVKrishnan · Post by **JVKrishnan** » 01 Oct 2010 23:33

Shankar wrote:with ge engines for LCA all the more chance MRCA not going US way that would be putting too many new eggs on an unreliable sanction prone basket- Gripen /mig 35 with Rafale as dark horse ?

Shankar,

Going by your logic..... gripen must also be out of contention! How do you propose to keep those 126 gripens in combat ready condition without spares, in case of sanctions? So, teens & gripen out...... enter mig, ef & rafale!

If we are really unhappy with mig that leaves us with ef & rafale. It indeed is plausible now that rafale & ef are frontrunners!

Personally, I like the Gripen but don't see how it going to make thru. Is it possible gripen makes an entry as a naval variant?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Oct 2010 01:26

Everyone here has forgottent that LCA is currently flying with GE engines (granted with lower thrust). So where is the problem if MK2 also uses GE engines?