China Military Watch

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2010 11:52

OT:

Apart from HAA, the IA capability in CI Ops is unparalled by anyone in the world - save for the British Army to some extent.

Prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom, 8th Mountain Division had more manhours in CI Ops than the entire US Army

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 12 Oct 2010 11:53

DavidD wrote:
Overconfident? You should take a closer look. By and large, China has great relationships and is further forging relationships with powers from afar, while subjugating the powers that are near them. It's using the millenia-old strategy of "allying with the far, conquering the near."

Its "arrogance" is only directed at the antagonistic powers nearby, such as Japan, the U.S.(huge presence in China's periphery), Vietnam, India, and to a lesser extent, the Philippines, and Malaysia. Most of the other powers nearby, such as Pakistan, NK, and Myanmar(at least now) are already in China's fold. Nations like Thailand, Cambodia, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, and to a lesser extent, SK, can still swing either way. Since Russia is west-centric and China is east-centric, the two great powers are also in each other's camp and have a very amicable relationship.

However, looking beyond China's immediate vicinity, you'll see great efforts exerted by the Chinese to cultivate deeper relationships, with almost no exception. Farthest from China, there are the Chinese investments in Africa, which have been discussed ad nauseum, and it's also greatly expanding its influence in South America. A bit closer and we have the middle east and the nearby Muslim countries, which China has always had good relationships with. Recently, with the security pact with Saudi Arabia and the military exercise with Turkey, it's evident that China wishes to further deepen their ties. We all know about Iran. China has also been playing a VERY active role in taking advantage of the stability created by the Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan through huge investments. Moving to the South Pacific, you can see that China has gone to great lengths to move past the bloody anti-Chinese riots by the Indonesians to explore a deeper relationship with them. It's establishing a foothold in Fiji, and China-Australia ties in recent years is astonishing and unprecedented for any Caucasian U.S.-ally nation. With U.S.-European ties in a slow by steady decline since the end of the cold war, Europe's waning powers in Asia, and the recent economic crisis, China has even taken the initiative to court the more troubled European nations such as Greece and Italy.

Ah I see David sir, China has taken the age old saying of "Keep friends near but enemies nearer" and made a local Chinese copy of it which says "Make Friends near but enemies nearer"

. Hats off to the wisdom, I am so enlightened.

And oh my gosh the grand alliances with Pakistan, NoKo, Myanmar, Banana republics of Africa to quote a few, I am so mesmerized with this grand strategy of the super power in waiting. And in tune with the great wisdom Han the greats are making alliances with other troubled countries too.

Thank god not everyone has Chinese wisdom or else every tinpot country would be having nuclear weapons and world would had been a very dangerous place to live.

On a serious note it is still the arrogance or may I say intoxication of your export driven economy that you have started challenging the very bread and butter of your economy (West) and bullying everyone else whom you can get you hands over. The other people may be quite due to fear of the Chinese (best case scenario

) or may be waiting for the time of their choosing to call China's Bluff, think about it.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Oct 2010 12:38

Sidhant wrote:And oh my gosh the grand alliances with Pakistan, NoKo, Myanmar, Banana republics of Africa to quote a few, I am so mesmerized with this grand strategy of the super power in waiting. And in tune with the great wisdom Han the greats are making alliances with other troubled countries too.

Good to see people think it that way. I had written on China’s “String of Pearls” strategy around India in tatters.

Other than Pakis (if US allows them), I don't see Chinese benefiting from any other way than some initial selling for hard cash. Pakis will not allow them a free hand unless Chinese fill their bags. But, i don't see this happening as Unkill hands out more bags.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 12 Oct 2010 12:39

OT again,

save for the British Army to some extent.

but this has unravelled to a great degree in iraq and Af'stan.

I distinctly remember reports of American generals saying that the "brits were too preachy when the GWOT began and constantly referred to their Ulster experience, but the performance on the ground was anything but extraordinary".

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Oct 2010 12:40

^^^ basra proved itself to be different from ulster, the same tactics didnt work

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2010 13:47

Well, here's a nice export opportunity for India (to China). Across the border to North Arunachal Pradesh (Tibet)?

..for the Cheenis to copy and sell to Lashkar e Rundi-e-Chinee

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... s/39474/on

Army to induct cost-effective indigenous Hapo bags
Press Trust of India / Jammu June 07, 2008, 16:17 IST

Cost-effective indigenous Hapo (High Altitude Pulmonary Oedema) bags will soon replace imported ones in Jammu and Kashmir's Ladakh sector, Defence sources said today.

Each imported bag costs Rs 15-20 lakh while its Indian counterpart, developed by Bangalore's Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory last year, costs only Rs 1 lakh.

An order has been placed for 3,000 such bags from manufacturers in Kolkata, Barkhi in Pune and Revari in Rajkot following successful field trials in the Khardungla and Siachen — some of the highest glacier belts in the world.

"A batch of 1,300 Hapo bags will reach Armymen in J&K soon," Lt Col S D Goswami said. "In the first phase, the portable one-man lifesaver would be deployed in Siachen, Kargil, Dault-Beigh-Oldi, Chashul, Leh and Kashmir plus some counter-insurgency areas in North-East and Pirpanjal range."

A Hapo bag typically absorbs carbon dioxide from the body of a patient suffering from pulmonary oedema, a condition in which water accumulates inside his lungs, by increasing surrounding temperature and pressure and pumping in oxygen.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2010 13:52

^^^Re. Basra - Because Brits forgot the golden and cardinal rule of CI Ops - Boots on the ground.....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2010 13:57

Erythropoietin is the hormone in the body that causes an increase in oxygen carrying red blood cells during high altitude acclimatization.

Maybe there is a business opportunity there. Here are the world's Erythropoietin producing companies. Mostly SDRE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoi ... iomedicine

* Epogen, which is made by Amgen
* Epotin, which is made by Gulf Pharmaceutical Ind. (JULPHAR)
* Betapoietin, which is made by CinnaGen and Zahravi
* ReliPoietin, which is made by Reliance Life Sciences Pvt. Ltd
* Erykine, which is made by Intas Biopharmaceutica Pvt. Ltd
* Shanpoietin, which is made by Shantha Biotechnics Ltd
* Zyrop, which is made by Cadila Healthcare Ltd.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Oct 2010 14:29

rohit - this is where the spending cuts have hit the on-ground strategy amidships... without enough men to be deployed and enough money to equip them, the british army is under performing

also, ulster, despite its complications was also culturally familiar to british troops, whereas iraq is not

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 13 Oct 2010 01:29

Sidhant wrote: Ah I see David sir, China has taken the age old saying of "Keep friends near but enemies nearer" and made a local Chinese copy of it which says "Make Friends near but enemies nearer" . Hats off to the wisdom, I am so enlightened.

Yo cuz. Your ignorance is showing. He's refering to 遠交近攻, Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbour.

It is known that nations that border each other become enemies while nations separated by distance and obstacles make better allies. When you are the strongest in one field, your greatest threat is from the second strongest in your field, not the strongest from another field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Stratagems

Sidhant wrote: And oh my gosh the grand alliances with Pakistan, NoKo, Myanmar, Banana republics of Africa to quote a few, I am so mesmerized with this grand strategy of the super power in waiting. And in tune with the great wisdom Han the greats are making alliances with other troubled countries too.

World politics is not a school popularity contest. It's funny how some Indian posters laugh at China having stooges and croonies. Wouldn't you rather have people that do the dirty work for you then not? Wouldn't India love to get their hands on a couple of domestic outfits in Pakistan to do some Indian bidding? How can you say influence is a bad thing?

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 13 Oct 2010 03:11

TonyMontana wrote:
Yo cuz. Your ignorance is showing. He's refering to 遠交近攻, Befriend a distant state while attacking a neighbour.

It is known that nations that border each other become enemies while nations separated by distance and obstacles make better allies. When you are the strongest in one field, your greatest threat is from the second strongest in your field, not the strongest from another field.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Stratagems

Tony sir, did I said that the saying is wrong or what David quoted it wrong. What I said is what a piece of wisdom and how enlightened I became with it. In tune with the same super natural wisdom the bosses of CPC the great think that India will be boxed if all her neighbors become her foes, but magically somehow the same rule does not applies to the super power in waiting and she will grow even if she picks up fights with most of her neighbors. This very contradiction in the infinite wisdom of CPC amuses me, that somehow the rules of Geopolitics are different for China and other countries

.

Befriend a distant states while attacking a neighbours, will this saying still hold if an "s" is added to it and the neighbors are formidable(all may not be powerful than China currently) foes like India, Japan, Vietnam and the grand alliances are with Powerful(??) nations like Pakistan, Noko, Turkey, Greece et

c. What kind of wisdom do you see in this scenario Tony sir? I dont doubt ancient Chinese wisdom and no disrespect meant to it but any wisdom is as good as the people/person applying it, its like science which can give you facts, how you apply it is all upto you. I was amused how the old saying is being used to justify the evidently bad decisions taken by China in last few months. Calling me ignorant will not change the fact that the Chinese actions in last few months have been a blatant demonstration of either Chinese overconfidence or impatience whatever you like to call it, both are not good.

TonyMontana wrote: World politics is not a school popularity contest. It's funny how some Indian posters laugh at China having stooges and croonies. Wouldn't you rather have people that do the dirty work for you then not? Wouldn't India love to get their hands on a couple of domestic outfits in Pakistan to do some Indian bidding? How can you say influence is a bad thing?

Thank god that world politics is not a popularity contest else China would lose without even contesting

. Well I can speak for myself and I dont laugh at China having stooges and croonies, I laugh when CPC projects them as grand alliances as I dont see anything grand on those alliances. If I hire a street goon to harass my foe that does not makes the goon my ally, does it Tony. Alliance is a much greater term, why there is so much heartburn if someone doesnt find those alliances grand, why does it hurts the Chinese pride if I call spade a spade. When did I said influence is bad, what I am trying to point out is that since China need such great

allies it means that China's super powerful hard and softer than silk soft powers have failed to achieve the objective and now they need to get dirty. Nothing wrong in doing that, but why is so much shame to acknowledge the same. Why do you need to wrap it in the name of grand alliance and get agitated or find it funny when some posters dont buy it?

I like the determination with which you and David defend every action of CPC but please remember CPC exists coz of China but vice versa is not true. A government who afraid of its own people is generally not a good government.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 13 Oct 2010 03:38

Sidhant wrote:
Tony sir, did I said that the saying is wrong or what David quoted it wrong. What I said is what a piece of wisdom and how enlightened I became with it. In tune with the same super natural wisdom the bosses of CPC the great think that India will be boxed if all her neighbors become her foes, but magically somehow the same rule does not applies to the super power in waiting and she will grow even if she picks up fights with most of her neighbors. This very contradiction in the infinite wisdom of CPC amuses me, that somehow the rules of Geopolitics are different for China and other countries .

Capability is the difference. The CCP believes that they have the capacility to take on the neighbours. As historically being the case. And the lack of concrete response from these neighbours has not proven them wrong yet. Where as they believe India does not have the "will" to use her capability to take on her "foes". It's up to India to prove them wrong.

Sidhant wrote:
Befriend a distant states while attacking a neighbours, will this saying still hold if an "s" is added to it and the neighbors are formidable(all may not be powerful than China currently) foes like India, Japan, Vietnam and the grand alliances are with Powerful(??) nations like Pakistan, Noko, Turkey, Greece et c. What kind of wisdom do you see in this scenario Tony sir? I dont doubt ancient Chinese wisdom and no disrespect meant to it but any wisdom is as good as the people/person applying it, its like science which can give you facts, how you apply it is all upto you. I was amused how the old saying is being used to justify the evidently bad decisions taken by China in last few months. Calling me ignorant will not change the fact that the Chinese actions in last few months have been a blatant demonstration of either Chinese overconfidence or impatience whatever you like to call it, both are not good.

Ha! I agree with you there. Sometimes (a lot of the times) CCP is embarassing to the Chinese people. They tend to write checks that the people have to cash, so to speak. Let's just hope they learn from their mistakes.

Sidhant wrote:
Thank god that world politics is not a popularity contest else China would lose without even contesting . Well I can speak for myself and I dont laugh at China having stooges and croonies, I laugh when CPC projects them as grand alliances as I dont see anything grand on those alliances. If I hire a street goon to harass my foe that does not makes the goon my ally, does it Tony. Alliance is a much greater term, why there is so much heartburn if someone doesnt find those alliances grand, why does it hurts the Chinese pride if I call spade a spade. When did I said influence is bad, what I am trying to point out is that since China need such great allies it means that China's super powerful hard and softer than silk soft powers have failed to achieve the objective and now they need to get dirty. Nothing wrong in doing that, but why is so much shame to acknowledge the same. Why do you need to wrap it in the name of grand alliance and get agitated or find it funny when some posters dont buy it?

Did you get angry too when they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?
Welcome to politics. I would hazard to guess that the "grand" part is for the "junior partner's" benefit.

Sidhant wrote:
I like the determination with which you and David defend every action of CPC but please remember CPC exists coz of China but vice versa is not true. A government who afraid of its own people is generally not a good government.

Those $0.5 comes in handy in this recession. They do add up.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 13 Oct 2010 04:53

pandyan wrote: Anyway, I have a OT, basic question.
we injuns have a habit of seeking higher power blessing when taking exam or when starting something new or during crisis. How do Chinese commoners react during times of stress? Do they pray god or seek higher power to guide them?

No. We just work harder. The older folks might invoke Chinese folk mythology, ie demi-godes etc, but to be honest, I don't think even they believe it. Of cause that depends on one's religious inclinations. Most mainland Chinese I know are atheist.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Oct 2010 05:42

Could I request that we stick to the mandate of this forum? There are two threads in the other forum in which we can discuss al propaganda about China. In here let's stick to talk related to the Chinese military please.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 13 Oct 2010 06:04

TonyMontana wrote: Capability is the difference. The CCP believes that they have the capacility to take on the neighbours. As historically being the case. And the lack of concrete response from these neighbours has not proven them wrong yet. Where as they believe India does not have the "will" to use her capability to take on her "foes". It's up to India to prove them wrong.

So unless the other governments react and start hurting China, CPC will not stop hurting the interests of other countries. And the way CPC is getting aggressive, to me it seems it wanna get China hurt from multiple fronts before it even realizes that the path it has taken is not correct, very primitive mentality. And as far as India is concerned, even if it manages to maintain current levels of growth for next one or two decades CPC (not China) would automatically be proven wrong. A violent reaction may not even be necessary. And as far as the will of India is concerned, to me it seems at least officially Indian Government is fairly confident that they can checkmate China as and when they want and not reacting to Chinese pin pricks implies the Government's confidence in India's Military and Economic might.

TonyMontana wrote: Did you get angry too when they didn't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?
Welcome to politics. I would hazard to guess that the "grand" part is for the "junior partner's" benefit.

Why would I get angry when WMDs were not found in Iraq

Thanks for the welcome

, that answer was for DavidD who was trying to portray the CPC junior partners as grand allies

of China and expecting us to buy that.

archan · Post by **archan** » 13 Oct 2010 06:16

Sidhant and Tony, take it elsewhere. This thread is about China military watch, not strategic.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 13 Oct 2010 07:31

...reply deleted and x-posted on PRC thread.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 13 Oct 2010 07:59

China Urges U.S. To Further Relax Export Curbs
Defense News

China Urges U.S. To Further Relax Export Curbs
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published : 12 Oct 2010 10:16

BEIJING - China on Oct. 12 urged the U.S. to further relax restrictions on high-tech exports to the Asian nation after the White House moved to partially lift a ban on military transport planes.

"We hope the U.S. side will continue to take measures to relax high-tech export restrictions to China," foreign ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu told reporters.

"This is in the interest of both sides."

U.S. President Barack Obama on Oct. 8 said it was in the "national interest of the United States" to lift restrictions on the export to China of C-130 cargo aircraft "to be used in oil spill response operations at sea".

China has long viewed U.S. curbs on high-tech exports as a barrier to balanced trade, and has repeatedly urged Washington to lift them in an effort to reduce Beijing's hefty trade surplus.

Give an Inch & the Rascals want a Mile.
Track Record
Chinese are continuously Cloning the Soviet analog of the C-130 Hercules, the Antonov An-12 since 1981, as the Shaanxi Y-8.

Shaanxi Y-8 - Wikipedia
Antonov An-12 - Wikipedia

wilson_th · Post by **wilson_th** » 13 Oct 2010 14:25

China becomes more assertive, more muscular.

http://news.rediff.com/special/2010/oct ... ispute.htm

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 14 Oct 2010 03:48

Now, Chinese rail link right up to Arunachal

In a development, which has alarmed officials and strategic community here, Beijing is simultaneously working on bringing its rail link right upto Nyangtri -- located on the border with Arunachal Pradesh and an area that China claims as its own.

Nyangtri is also the site where the Brahmaputra is proposed to be diverted northwards by the Chinese. The Chinese claim that the Nyangtri or Nyingchi prefecture includes some parts of Arunachal Pradesh. China proposes to build the largest dam in the world at this spot..............

Strategic affairs expert Brahma Chellaney describes the rail link to Nyangtri as a significant new development. "The building of the railway to this area is significant because of two reasons: China has unveiled plans to construct there the world's largest dam which will be more than twice bigger than Three Gorges Dam, now the world's largest dam, and also because it will strengthen China's rapid military deployment capability in the eastern (Arunachal) sector," said Chellaney, adding that China is in a position to rapidly move forces and strike at India whenever it wants to.

China's focus on expanding its railway south of Lhasa is alarming also because of reports that for the first time earlier this year "combat readiness material" meant for the PLA air force was transported to the region through the Tibet rail link. The PLA Daily recently reported that China conducted its first major parachute exercise in Tibet to demonstrate its capability to rapidly send troops on the world's highest plateau.

YOU SNOOZE YOU LOOSE!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 14 Oct 2010 11:44

Cross - Post

Vietnam Offers Repair Services for Indian Warships
The Indian Express

Vietnam Offers Repair Services for Indian Warships
Manu Pubby
Posted : Thu Oct 14 2010, 05:44 hrs
New Delhi

In a Significant Gesture, Vietnam has Offered Repair and Maintenance Facilities for Indian Warships at its Ports, Taking Bilateral Military Relations Up Several Notches.

After a meeting with Defence Minister A K Antony in Hanoi, his counterpart Gen Phung Quang Thanh Welcomed More Port Calls by the Indian Navy and Offered Maintenance and Repair Facilities for Warships at Vietnam Ports.

This would Extend a Major Advantage to the Indian Navy that has been Scaling Up Operations in the Region, Specially in the South China Sea where Several Patrols have been Carried Out in the past few Years.

Vietnam is Strategically Located in the Region and has Several Sea Ports, Including Hai Phong, Located Near China’s Hainan Island, that could be of Great Interest to India.

Hai Phong is Possibly the Nearest Port Made Available for the Indian Navy to the Hainan Island where the Biggest Chinese Naval Base in the Region is Located.

China has Constructed a Major Naval Base that Includes an Underground Facility that can Hide the Movement of Submarines from Spy Satellites.

The Military Facility, the Nearest Chinese Naval Base to India, is Located barely 1,200 nautical miles from the Strategic Mallaca Strait and Provides Access to the Indian Ocean — a Region that New Delhi Considers its Personal Security Responsibility.

In 2008, China Deployed its new Jin-class nuclear submarine, which is armed with 12 nuclear tipped missiles, to Hainan.

Vietnam’s offer came even as Antony announced that India would host a joint jungle and mountain warfare exercise with the country next year and New Delhi would help upgrade capabilities of the Vietnamese armed forces.

After meeting with the top Vietnamese leadership including Gen Phung Quang Thanh, Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung and the President Nguyen Minh Triet in Hanoi on Wednesday, Antony Announced that India would Help Enhance the Capabilities of the Vietnamese Forces in general and would Focus on the Navy in Particular.

It may be Recalled that India is already Supplying Spare Parts for the Petya-class of Light Frigates that are Operated by the Vietnamese Navy. India has already Decommissioned 11 of the Russian origin warships.

After Wednesday’s Meeting, the Indian Navy will Increase its Involvement to Other Types of Warships, possibly Including Maintenance of the new Kilo-Class Submarines that Vietnam has Ordered from Russia.

Speaking after the Meeting, Antony said that “New Delhi will Provide Support to Vietnam to Enhance and Upgrade Capabilities of its Services in general and the Navy in Particular” and Emphasised that India will Help Vietnam in its “Capacity Building for Repair and Maintenance of its Platforms”.

Besides, the “Joint Training in Mountain and Jungle Warfare in India Next Year”, the India Army will also impart IT and English Training to Vietnamese Armymen.

“The Two Sides will Work Towards Developing Cooperation among Defence Institutes and Establishing Links for Sharing Experience and Knowledge,” Antony said.

Take that Chinesey B@stards

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 14 Oct 2010 13:15

America is mulling selling C-130 cargo planes, atleast that is how China claims it to be.

Chinas view
Americas view

From the american viewpoint

......
......
However, White House National Security Council spokesman Michael Hammer said the waiver issued on Saturday will not allow C-130s sales. "Under this announcement, we are not selling any aircraft to anyone," he stated in an e-mail.
......
......
The waiver announcement and China's view of it also raised concerns among some specialists who view it as a step by the Obama administration toward eventually lifting the arms embargo.
.....
.....
An administration official said the waiver covers all C-130s, military or civilian, "but is intended for those used by oil spill companies, which routinely use them."

Basically China is saying that America should export more of its high-tech hardware, if it wants to close the Sino-US trade-gap, especially items related to dual-use or military use.
While America is dressing it up as a future environment cleanup item.

Funny thing is that White House National Security Council spokesman Michael Hammer did not say that C-130 will not be sold to china. Rather he said, "we are not selling any aircraft to anyone". Play of words or something deeper?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Oct 2010 05:38

Looks like the Indian Govt is growing some Ball$

better late than never!
Cross Post
Swami Expresses Need for Clear-Cut Policy About China

Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy today said India needs a sophisticated foreign policy combined with modern weaponry to counter China in defence preparedness.

"We need to modernise our weapons. A new mindset of countering China in the defence preparedness is required, combined with sophisticated foreign policy," he said in a panel discussion on 'India's Strategic Perspectives in 21st century' at the College of Defence Management here.

"The defence budget of India is around 2.2 to 2.3 per cent of the GDP while China has a defence budget of 6 per cent of its GDP. Its (China) military hardware is far superior in network, quantity and quality than India's, and as its recent dispute with Japan shows it already has a super power mindset which we do not have," Swamy said.

Swamy also underscored the need for identifying China's vulnerabilities.

"We need to understand China's vulnerabilities and prepare for the same," he said.

"Chinese are involved in lot of infrastructure and construction activities in PoK and even their high-level officials are visiting this region. China, which wants to emerge as an alternate power, is also helping Pakistan on nuclear technology and may also win Pakistan away from the United States," Ranade said.

Vice Admiral (Retd), SCS Bangara said India lacked a decision making structure and emphasised on the need for professional decision making agencies with scope for accountability.

Later, speaking to reporters, Swamy predicted that China, which is the second largest economy, may face a major financial crisis in the next 3-4 years.

"There will be a banking and financial crisis in China in the next 3-4 years," he said.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Oct 2010 14:56

Why China Training with NATO Ally Matters

Why China Training with NATO Ally Matters
October 16, 2010 16:51 IST

It is learnt that Chinese Air Force planes had refuelled in Pakistan and Iran last month while on their way to Turkey to participate in a joint air exercise with the Turkish Air Force. On the way back, they refueled only in Iran. The air exercise preceded the recent visit of Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao to Turkey.

Turkey's agreement to hold a joint exercise with the People's Liberation Army (Air Force) is significant for two reasons.

Firstly, Turkey agreed to participate in the exercise and to host Wen despite the considerable unhappiness and anger caused among the religious elements of Turkey last year over the suppression of the Uighurs of Xinjiang by the PLA.

The Munich-based World Uighur Congress, which Beijing blamed for the Uighur uprising in Xinjiang last year, enjoys considerable support in Turkey. Secondly, the Obama administration does not appear to have opposed the joint exercise despite the fact that the planes of the Turkish Air Force that participated in the joint exercise had been given by the US.

Details of the exercise have been carried by the People's Daily in China on the basis of Western and Turkish media reports.Turkish press reports confirmed the unprecedented involvement of PLA (Air Force) jets in Turkey's annual joint exercises, known as Anatolian Eagle, held over the centre of the country.

Army Lieutenant Colonel Tamara Parker, a Pentagon spokeswoman, confirmed European press reports of the unusual aerial military exercises involving US-made Turkish jets and Chinese Su-27 fighters that engaged in simulated aerial combat.

She said, "The government of Turkey is committed to the North Atlantic Treaty Oorganisation Alliance and the continuation of strong ties to the United States, and Turkey assured us they would take the utmost care related to their possession of US and NATO technologies."

However, she did not address the issue of whether the Chinese military might have learned sensitive NATO aerial combat information.

Jane's Defense Weekly, quoting Turkish diplomatic sources, stated that the exercises involved less-capable US-made F-4s and Chinese Su-27s, but not the more advanced US-made F-16s.

Ed Timperlake, a former Marine Corps fighter pilot and former Pentagon technology security official, said allowing the Chinese Air Force to exercise with a NATO ally posed security risks. He said: 'The Turkish Air Force helping the Chinese Air Force to see NATO combat tactics and training is a very bad idea. It is deadly serious stuff."

He said the exercises and Turkey's warming relations with neighbouring Iran should lead the Pentagon to rethink its decision to sell the new F-35 jet to Turkey.

Richard Fisher, a specialist on China's military at the International Assessment and Strategy Centre, also criticised Turkey's military for conducting aerial exercises with a communist power that posed a threat to US and allied security interests in Asia. "It's not a good thing," he said.

Fisher said Turkey in the late 1990s used Chinese technology to jointly develop short-range B-611 missiles.

The Tehran Press TV Online reported that Iran opened its airspace to the Turkish and Chinese jets.

The daily Hurriyat reported that Iran indirectly supported a secret military drill between the Turkish and Chinese Air Forces.

Four drill-bound Chinese SU-27 warplanes that took off from bases in China refueled in Iran the first time the Islamic Republic has ever allowed foreign warplanes to refuel at its airbases, the daily said.

The Russian-made SU-27s used by the Chinese Air Force had to refuel in both Pakistan and Iran because of their limited 3,500-kilometer range.

Official letters were sent to the two countries prior to the exercise requesting the use of airspace and passage and refueling privileges.

The warplanes refueled a second time in Iran on their return to China. The exercise was conducted after two years of deliberations, the report said, adding that its sole purpose was to improve mutual cooperation between the two friendly countries.

Washington contacted Ankara ahead of the drill to express concerns over the planned use of F-16 warplanes in a military drill involving China -- which the US considers a possible threat. "We expect you to honour the agreement article that requires the exercise of caution regarding the transfer of technology to third countries," the memorandum read.

American concerns were taken into consideration and F-16 fighters were replaced by older F-4 models in the exercise.

The China Daily reported on October 15 that a new Strategic Concept expected to be discussed by a NATO summit to be held in Lisbon next month proposes regular consultations with countries like China and India.

The paper said: "However, there is slim hope that China will put on its own agenda the cooperation with the NATO.

According to Tao Wenzhao, a professor at the Institute of American Studies of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, "NATO has been eyeing deeper ties with China for some time, because they are looking for substantial help from China to ease things up in Afghanistan, a nine-year-old war that has required the deployment of 150,000 multinational troops."

"But even if Beijing is supportive of anti-terrorism measures, China remains a country firmly committed to non-alliance. Moreover, it is unlikely China would carry out in-depth cooperation with NATO, an outcome of the cold war," said Tao.

B Raman

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 19 Oct 2010 08:55

Finmeccanica Eyes C-27J Sales to China as President Obama Opens Arms Exports Floodgates

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Oct 2010 18:52

Finmeccanica Eyes C-27J Sales to China

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Oct 2010 22:41

The Chinese are Coming !
Indian Defence Review

General JFR Jacob, the Hero of the 1971 India Pakistan War
J. F. R. Jacob - Wikipedia
India's Jewish General Who Beat Pakistan

(Double Whammy)

The Chinese are Coming !
By Lt Gen JFR Jacob
2 September, 2010

The Dragon has emerged from its lair with a vengeance.

A senior Indian army officer was denied an official Chinese visa on the grounds that he was commanding in Jammu and Kashmir, a disputed territory according to the Chinese.

The Chinese occupy considerable amount of territory in Ladakh, which they captured in 1962. They are now slowly making inroads into the Indus Valley and other areas. In 1963, Pakistan had illegally ceded some 5,000 square km (2000 sq miles) in the area of the Karakoram to China.

Pakistan is now reported to have handed over control of the major part of the northern territories to China. Media reports indicate that there are some 10,000 Chinese soldiers based in Gilgit on the pretext of protecting the widening work on the Karakoram Highway and the construction of a railway line to link east Tibet with the Pakistani port of Gwadar in the Gulf of Oman.

The Russians in the 19th and 20th centuries dreamt of a getting warm water port on the Arabian Sea. The Chinese seem well on the way to fulfilling this Russian dream.

In a Further Move to Encircle India by Sea, the Chinese are Establishing Naval and Air Bases on Myanmar’s Ramree Island in the Bay of Bengal. (Incidentally, I took part in the amphibious assault on Ramree Island during World War II). These Bases on Ramree Island will help the Chinese in their Endeavors to Control the Upper Bay of Bengal and Pose a Threat to Kolkata, Vishakapatnam and the Andamans.

The presence of Chinese troops in Gilgit is a matter of great concern. During the Kargil conflict, the five battalions of the intruding paramilitary Northern Rifles were maintained from Gilgit and thence from Skardu. There is a good road from Gilgit to Skardu. In pre-Partition days, road communications to Gilgit were along the Kargil-Skardu-Gilgit route. This section can easily be restored in a short period of time.

The reported presence of Chinese troops in Gilgit poses a serious threat to Indian road communications to Ladakh running through Kargil.

Another matter of concern is the increased Chinese interest in the Indus Valley. The easiest approach to Leh is along this valley. The Chinese have not only shown interest in the Indus Valley but also the Karakoram Pass between India and China.

Any Chinese move through the Karakoram Pass will threaten our troops in Siachen and our base at Thoise. In the contingency of any future conflict with the Chinese, new areas of conflict in Ladakh will open up. I served in Ladakh for two years immediately after the Chinese invasion of 1962, and it also fell under my purview subsequently as Chief of Staff and Army Commander covering the northeast. During this period there were many incursions and incidents.

Keeping these factors in mind, there is an urgent requirement for another division and supporting armour to be raised for the defence of Ladakh and two more for the north east.

In the northeast, the Chinese may, after negotiations, reduce their claims from the whole of Arunachal to the Tawang tract and Walong.

Major Bob Kathing and his Assam Rifles platoon only moved to take control of Tawang in the spring of 1951. The Chinese had placed a pillar in Walong in the 1870s. They have built up the road, rail and air infrastructure in Tibet. It is assessed that the Chinese can now induct some 30 divisions there in a matter of weeks.

We are committed to ensure the defence of Bhutan. We need at least two divisions plus for the defence of Bhutan. In West Bhutan, the Chinese have moved upto the Torsa Nulla. From there it is not far to Siliguri via Jaldakha. This remains the most serious potential threat to the Siliguri corridor.

The Chinese have developed the infrastructure in Tibet to enable them to mount operations all along the border. We are still in the process of upgrading our infrastructure in the north east. It will take many more years before the infrastructure in the north east is upgraded to what is required. Thus we need to raise two more divisions and an armoured brigade for the north east.

There is an urgent requirement for more artillery, firepower and mobility. More helicopters are also needed to ensure mobility. Mobility is a key factor in military operations. Mobility is necessary to obtain flexibility as also the ability to react in fluid operations. In order to ensure the means to react, we need reserves. These reserves have yet to be created.

The Air Force needs to deploy more squadrons in that region, since, unlike 1962, the Air Force will play a decisive role in any future operations.

The Chinese are also said to be re-establishing their earlier links with the Naga insurgents.

In 1974/75, I was in charge of operations that intercepted two Naga gangs going to China to collect weapons and money. The Nagas were then compelled to sign the Shillong Accord, and Chinese support for the Naga insurgents was put on the backburner. Twelve years of peace followed. But now, the Chinese, in collusion with the Pakistani ISI, are said to be in the process of re-activating their support of the Naga insurgents as part of an overall scheme to destabilize the north east.

The increasing military collaboration between China and Pakistan is of growing concern, but we seem woefully unprepared for this contingency.

The government urgently needs to expedite the induction of land, air and naval weapons systems and to build up the required reserves of ammunition and spares. In any future conflict, logistics will be of paramount importance.

During the 1971 war, it took me some six months to build up the infrastructure for the operations in East Pakistan. The requirements now are far, far greater. Modern weapons systems take a long time to induct and absorb. The induction of new weapons systems and build up of logistical backing should be initiated on an emergency footing.

At the moment, we seem to have insufficient resources to meet this contingency.

We are critically short of modern weapons systems and weaponry. No new 155mm guns have been inducted for some two decades.

During the limited Kargil conflict, we ran out of 155mm ammunition for the Bofors field guns.
Fortunately for us, the Israelis flew out the required ammunition.

New aircraft for our Air Force are yet to be inducted. The navy is short of vital weapons systems. These shortages need to be addressed at the earliest.

There is no Soviet Union with its Treaty of Friendship to help us now [in 1971, the Soviets moved 40 divisions to the Xinjiang and seven to the Manchurian borders to deter the Chinese]. We have to rely on our own resources. We must show that we have the will and wherewithal to meet the emerging contingencies.

It is High Time the Government Reappraises the Emerging Situation and puts in place the Measures Required to Meet the Developments, Before it is Too Late.

When an 87 Year Old Retired General Realises the Grave Gravity of the Situation & the very sorry State of Affairs of Military Acquisitions, Why can't the Serving Big Generals, the Politicians & the goddamn Government

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 25 Oct 2010 03:58

Juggi G wrote: When an 87 Year Old Retired General Realises the Grave Gravity of the Situation & the very sorry State of Affairs of Military Acquisitions, Why can't the Serving Big Generals, the Politicians & the goddamn Government

Sounds more like a paranoid old man, which I suppose is understandable given how oblivious India was in '62. Best to find a middle ground between being paranoid and oblivious, IMO. There's nothing wrong with preparing for a possible Chinese invasion, it's always best to be prepared for everything, but acting like it's imminent is just misguided.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 25 Oct 2010 07:04

DavidD wrote:
Juggi G wrote: When an 87 Year Old Retired General Realises the Grave Gravity of the Situation & the very sorry State of Affairs of Military Acquisitions, Why can't the Serving Big Generals, the Politicians & the goddamn Government
Sounds more like a paranoid old man, which I suppose is understandable given how oblivious India was in '62. Best to find a middle ground between being paranoid and oblivious, IMO. There's nothing wrong with preparing for a possible Chinese invasion, it's always best to be prepared for everything, but acting like it's imminent is just misguided.

You may not agree with his views, but please do not call general Jacob "a paranoid old man". I bet he knows more about the situation then most of the folks on this site, who pretend to know lot of things. General Jacob was one of the heroes of 1971 war.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Oct 2010 07:19

http://www.comhaha.com/blog/524004-f-11 ... -in-tibet/

Posting in full

PLA F-11 fighters flying over the exercises in Tibet.

LONDON August 10 report, according to Global Strategic Network 6 reported that the Chinese F -11 fighter flight training for the first time in Tibet. J -11 is the most advanced system of planes in China. Although 90 years since the last century, China is only less than 150 which built fighter planes, but they have appeared in many unexpected places. Reported that the Chinese Air Force planes stationed in Tibet is not, despite the old F -7 regular fighters often fly in the area, but mainly in large commercial airport, temporary assignments.

Report, said the past five years, the model of friction between China and Russia to become one of the reasons. In 1995, the price of 25 billion won from the construction of 200 Russian Su -27 fighter permissions. Russia is responsible for providing engines and aerospace electronic equipment, while the Chinese side is responsible for the drawings and specifications in accordance with the Russian construction of other parts. However, the construction of 95 Su -27 fighter, the Russian side to cancel this agreement. Russia says China has used Su -27 fighter procurement project from the knowledge gained, the construction of its replica of the Soviet Union -27, that is, F -11 fighter. Russia warned that China simply copy the Russian technology, can build a low-quality aircraft. Obviously, China does not think so, its use of technology to the development of the Chinese fighter J--11.

It is believed that F -11 fighter is now more advanced equipment, including aerospace electronic equipment and some other Chinese design improvement. China to produce F -11 fighter most of the parts, the main problem is its still has to import engines. China believes that in the next five to ten years, it will get rid of dependence on Russian military aircraft engines. At present, China imports two Russian engines - priced 3.5 million U.S. dollars of the AL-31 (Su -27/30, F -11, F -10) and Unit 2.5 million U.S. dollars of the RD-93 (MiG -29 dispensed RD-33 engine in a version).

Reported that the People's Liberation Army Air Force fighter planes stationed in Tibet is not the main reason was the region's high altitude, large quantities of fuel costs as well as in Tibet and other supplies required for the maintenance of aircraft. At present, only one railway to Tibet (made recently built), and one of the few passable roads for heavy trucks.

Moreover, the PLA officers and men of altitude sickness in Tibet is the Chinese presence in Tibet fighters to a major problem. When people who grew up from the plain areas (most of the world population is so) migrate to the high mountain areas, will be insufficient oxygen due to air in such a reaction occurs. This "mountain sickness," the main symptoms of shortness of breath, a sense of direction, confusion, nosebleeds, nausea, dehydration, decreased quality of sleep and eating problems, headaches, etc., if there is "Altitude Sickness" and stay at altitude for too long time loss of labor force will slow.

Reported that the average altitude of Tibet 4100 meters. Most people can adapt to local environment, but some people can not. Most of the soldiers came to the Tibetan plateau need to spend a few days or weeks to adjust to the local environment. But if they overworked, especially long exertion, still prone to altitude sickness. This has weakened the combat effectiveness of the Chinese troops stationed in Tibet.

Researchers recently found that in the past 3 1000-6 thousand years, Tibetans have evolved to adapt to this environment. The reason these people will become the main inhabitants of Tibet, mainly because they are more robust at high altitudes. Almost all Tibetans have this gene (control red blood cell activity, to maintain adequate oxygen levels). Low elevations, but very few Chinese people these genes.

Reported that the Chinese army is now putting in a lot of time, money and effort to solve this problem. Now, most of China's Chengdu Military Region, troops are deployed in the basin of the eastern half of the points. In Chengdu, western Tibet, China has deployed 52 and 53 Mountain Brigade, and strive to maintain the ability to perform tasks of 5,000 troops. The event of emergencies, like two years ago, as 13 and 14 near the army to its base in the lowlands to send troops overseas. However, once reached heights of more than 20% of soldiers are suffering from high disease, leading to disruption of work, but commanders have been trained to adapt to this situation.

Now, based in the plateau (the Sino-Indian border highland 4,500 meters) of the Chinese troops have the training room, training room in one of 1,000 square meters, and another 3,000 square meters, the training room are in oxygen-rich state. In the training room for training of soldiers, soldiers of the body can increase the oxygen content in the blood and reduce the prevalence of risk of altitude sickness. In this way, the soldiers deployed there can stay healthy. In addition, the Department of soldiers in high altitude patrol the border areas, usually carry oxygen bottles and breathing masks.

However, so far, China can only alleviate altitude sickness, not eradicate. Taking into account the aircraft maintenance personnel awareness of requirements, and the pilots prepare for flight, coupled with logistical problems, the PLA Air Force has announced timely training in Tibet, but not the air force deployed there. However, perhaps one day the Chinese Air Force will have to fight over in Tibet, so they should be there for related training.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2010 08:28

the PLA can surely eradicate altitude sickness by forming up 5 divisions with Tibetan recruits ! 50,000 well armed tibetans can surely teach india a lesson ( though they will likely turn around and butcher their PLA supervisors instead)

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 25 Oct 2010 12:52

VinodTK wrote:
DavidD wrote:
Sounds more like a paranoid old man, which I suppose is understandable given how oblivious India was in '62. Best to find a middle ground between being paranoid and oblivious, IMO. There's nothing wrong with preparing for a possible Chinese invasion, it's always best to be prepared for everything, but acting like it's imminent is just misguided.
You may not agree with his views, but please do not call general Jacob "a paranoid old man". I bet he knows more about the situation then most of the folks on this site, who pretend to know lot of things. General Jacob was one of the heroes of 1971 war.

It seems from the article that he's just citing reports of dubious credibility available in the public domain.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2010 12:59

many a civilization has been wiped out failing to heed the warnings of frail and 'paranoid old men' while society as a whole partied to high glory.

my readings of world history have convinced me the greatest disasters sometimes tend to hit those elites unwilling to let go of their ego/preconceived notions/money making schemes would be affected and open their minds to unpopular ideas that would ential societal/business/industrial disruption as the system is re-geared to meet the new threat.

business as usual is always the easy way out, easier to discredit the message and messenger than do the hard work needed.

I would rather trust a guy like Gen Jacob who has "been there done that" than a army of Phds and strategic affairs specialists and 'consultants' sitting in leafy campuses and offices in Delhi writing their next papers.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 25 Oct 2010 13:52

DavidD wrote:
Juggi G wrote: When an 87 Year Old Retired General Realises the Grave Gravity of the Situation & the very sorry State of Affairs of Military Acquisitions, Why can't the Serving Big Generals, the Politicians & the goddamn Government
Sounds more like a paranoid old man, which I suppose is understandable given how oblivious India was in '62. Best to find a middle ground between being paranoid and oblivious, IMO. There's nothing wrong with preparing for a possible Chinese invasion, it's always best to be prepared for everything, but acting like it's imminent is just misguided.

DavidD , since we have a super paranoid and super insecure neighbour in the form of PRC(which feels threatened by His Holiness Dalai Lama and the fishermen of vietnam) we do need some paranoid men of our known who can read PRC's intentions.

Also since General Jacobs is a war hero in this country and a highly revered figure for us I would request you not to address Gen Jacobs as such in future.No hard feelings since you are not an Indian and obviously didn't know Gen Jacobs but for future please do make a note.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 26 Oct 2010 09:17

HQ9 shot Indias Phalcon down
seems some half baked news, trying to see if any one read about it ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Oct 2010 09:44

^ Man these guys give pingreji a run for its money.

JVKrishnan · Post by **JVKrishnan** » 26 Oct 2010 09:54

Thomas Kolarek wrote:HQ9 shot Indias Phalcon down
seems some half baked news, trying to see if any one read about it ?

was that article in english?

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 26 Oct 2010 10:18

Apparently BRfites aren't the only one's with a "China Military Watch" dhaga ...

United States Commits $12.5 billion for Super Military Base in the Pacific

rohitsawant · Post by **rohitsawant** » 26 Oct 2010 11:23

C-130's and C-27J for china?

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4617
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4644

nishu · Post by **nishu** » 26 Oct 2010 12:22

JVKrishnan wrote:
Thomas Kolarek wrote:HQ9 shot Indias Phalcon down
seems some half baked news, trying to see if any one read about it ?
was that article in english?

actually it did happen
It was a prestine summer morning when the phalcon took off . it was a great view to watch that might beast take off ,it used to fly all around my house looking for pray . On that faithful day two chines planes jf-7 and jf-11 spoted the palcon and moved to engage it they fired heat seeking ,radar seeking missiles but phalcon evaded all those .
Out of options the pilot in the jf-7 decided to do a hard hit the phalcon by hitting the phalcon with the wings of the fighter and bring it down . he relaid the decision to jf -11 . jf-11 decided to go in to stealth mode and it became invisible . pilot inside jf-11 was not able to see the controls of the fighter as the plane became invisible and by mistake pressed the self destruct button . Pilot in jf-7 thought phalcon must have done ew attack and it might do the same to him he switched off all his electrical equipment and lost control of the plane and crashed to death .
Finally plaf launched there mighty fighter with the help of pakistan airforce the jf-10 . jf -10 finally brought the phalcon and itself with a birdhit