Indian Military Aviation

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2010 22:03

Questions - Are aircraft like Tejas - a double delta - even suited for aerobatic displays?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Oct 2010 23:56

^^^ One can't categorize a plane based on just the wings.

Trainers are generally aerodynamically more stable than a full blown fighter especially at low speeds. For the SKAT the sweet spot is not 0.7 Mach, which is the typically speed around and above which modern combat aircrafts are optimized.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 13 Oct 2010 08:34

x-post from the Mil Multimedia thread

a pretty good report from NDTV shown on Air Force Day - lotsa aircrafts
http://www.tubaah.com/details.php?video_id=168476

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 13 Oct 2010 09:12

rohitvats wrote:Questions - Are aircraft like Tejas - a double delta - even suited for aerobatic displays?

Are you serious?

Cheers....

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 13 Oct 2010 10:27

Russians Hold Up IAF Chopper Contests
StratPost

Russians Hold Up IAF Chopper Contests
October 5, 2010
By Saurabh Joshi

The Indian Air Force (IAF) Trials for an Estimated USD 2 billion order for 22 Attack and 15 Heavy Lift Helicopters have been Held Up because the Russian Contenders in the Two Shortlists have Failed to Arrive in India.

Senior IAF officials said on Monday that for reasons that were, as yet, unclear, the Russian Mil Mi-28 and the Mi-26 helicopters had not been cleared to come to India for trials. The trials for both categories of aircraft began in July.

IAF officials have chosen not to label this a delay and deny they’ve set any deadline for the Russian aircraft to arrive for trials, even though this could put the two acquisition contests in limbo. Boeing’s Apache AH-64D attack helicopter and the Chinook heavy lift helicopter are the other aircraft in the competition.

The IAF would, presumably, want to prevent the Process of Acquisition of the two types of aircraft from being Jeopardized by the Withdrawal of the Russian Helicopters from the Contest.
Under the Indian Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP), Any Contest which Results in the Survival of Only a Single Vendor is Vitiated and the Process has to be Restarted.

The Trials of both the Apache and Chinook Helicopters have been Completed.
The Weapons Trials Phase for the Apache Helicopter Ended Last Week in the United States.

Russkies & their Big Mercies

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Oct 2010 10:37

Its not the wings. A mach 1 or below planes are economically viable and plus you don't need mach 1 speeds for maneuvers.

Tejas is very suited aerodynamically for the maneuvers, but, its an overkill.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2010 11:07

well perhaps the Mi28 wasnt ready for a real trial (just like the Tiger) and as for the Mi26T maybe the few protos that exist were not either. its usually of question of paying money for a couple years to restart the production line, bring back the workers from the local cantina and get things moving again

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2010 11:19

If true, then in that case we could be looking at a repeat performance of FMS deals. In order to build the capability quickely.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Oct 2010 12:21

neerajb wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Questions - Are aircraft like Tejas - a double delta - even suited for aerobatic displays?

Are you serious?

Cheers....

I was, actually.

I was under the impression that a double delta may have issues with low speed demonstrations......don't ask me why I thought so...something stuck in the mind somewhere...Cheers!

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 13 Oct 2010 13:18

rohitvats wrote:I was under the impression that a double delta may have issues with low speed demonstrations......don't ask me why I thought so...something stuck in the mind somewhere...Cheers!

This term low speed is relative and doesn't mean that Tejas needs to maneuver at the same speed as Hawk/Kiran to perform aerobatic stunts. Yes you are right in your assertion that at extreme low speeds a hawk would be more nimble than Tejas. There is a chase scene in French movie 'Les Chevaliers du ciel' where a mirage is doing mock dogfight with alpha jet. Mirage pilot is doing everything from barrel rolls to high alpha maneuvers just to be at it's tail and not overshoot. Clearly shows the nimbleness of trainer aircrafts at low speeds over high performance high speed jets.

OT : If someday someone decides to make such a movie on IAF, I'd love to see the dogfight between Tejas and Hawk.

Cheers....

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Oct 2010 13:22

airshows are better at lower speeds, otherwise the crowd are left wondering about the little dots in the sky
and as others have pointed out, the main factor is cost
and as others have also pointed out, reliability and proven performance are preferable to early development aircraft

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 13 Oct 2010 18:11

Shameek wrote:Do note that these airforces do not operate prototype versions of the aircraft as a part of their teams.

Yes, that makes sense. Well my comment to use LCA for SKAT was not a thought one. But personally I still believe the Ambassadors of IAF should use a Indian Aircraft.

Meanwhile the Hawk 132 has FBW where as the Kiran didn't had it. So how which of a change would it be for SKAT and can we expect more edgier maneuvers from them ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Oct 2010 19:17

rohitvats wrote:I was, actually.

I was under the impression that a double delta may have issues with low speed demonstrations......don't ask me why I thought so...something stuck in the mind somewhere...Cheers!

I thought the unstable design + FBW gives it better maneuverability, even at low speeds.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 13 Oct 2010 19:29

Hiten wrote:x-post from the Mil Multimedia thread

a pretty good report from NDTV shown on Air Force Day - lotsa aircrafts
http://www.tubaah.com/details.php?video_id=168476

At 10:35: "Let me tell you the difference between God and a fighter pilot. God doesn't think he is a fighter pilot ..."

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 13 Oct 2010 19:34

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I was, actually.

I was under the impression that a double delta may have issues with low speed demonstrations......don't ask me why I thought so...something stuck in the mind somewhere...Cheers!
I thought the unstable design + FBW gives it better maneuverability, even at low speeds.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the Hawk is not a fly-by-wire aircraft. Fly by wire aircraft cannot (easily) be put into a spin - they stabilise themselves. One of the important objectives of AJT training is to teach the pilot how to recover from a spin, etc. So a FBW based AJT would not allow this training to be imparted.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Oct 2010 20:46

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I was, actually.

I was under the impression that a double delta may have issues with low speed demonstrations......don't ask me why I thought so...something stuck in the mind somewhere...Cheers!
I thought the unstable design + FBW gives it better maneuverability, even at low speeds.

CJ, I'm not technically fluent in these things........was just a hunch and hence, I asked the question.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Oct 2010 21:14

eklavya wrote: Unless I am very much mistaken, the Hawk is not a fly-by-wire aircraft. Fly by wire aircraft cannot (easily) be put into a spin - they stabilise themselves. One of the important objectives of AJT training is to teach the pilot how to recover from a spin, etc. So a FBW based AJT would not allow this training to be imparted.

Escape clauses do come in handy. : )

TRAINING AIRCRAFT

In July 2003 the Hawk T2 (128) was selected as the new Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) for the RAF and Royal Navy fast-jet aircrew training. Aircrew trained on the Hawk T2 (128) will move onto operational service with Harrier, Tornado, Typhoon and the future Joint Combat Aircraft.

Hawk T2 (128) will be able to provide pilots in training with the all-digital, fly-by-wire experience necessary for pilots flying the latest generation of fast jets.

I tried to find out what is done to accommodate the "spin" you mention. Have not found it so far, but, I suspect that there is a switch that accommodates for that.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 13 Oct 2010 21:15

Rather than wait and go for a non-ending tender process why not induct 22 LCH's as heavy attack helis. Let them not reach the height they were supposed to fly. Let these 22 be fitted with high weapon load for low level operations.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 13 Oct 2010 21:18

NRao wrote: I tried to find out what is done to accommodate the "spin" you mention. Have not found it so far, but, I suspect that there is a switch that accommodates for that.

IIRC the FBW control software has a program to put the aircraft into a spin. This is controlled by the instructor. The system will auto recover if after a certain delay (time, alt) the pilot is not able to do it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Oct 2010 21:20

Sorry, the following statement is not very clear about the Hawk being a FBW:

Hawk T2 (128) will be able to provide pilots in training with the all-digital, fly-by-wire experience necessary for pilots flying the latest generation of fast jets.

But, here is one for the M-346:

M-346

One of the key features of the Aermacchi M-346 advanced jet trainer being promoted to the UAE Air Force is the aircraft’s BAE Systems/Teleavio quadruplex fly-by-wire control system.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Oct 2010 21:34

rohitvats wrote:CJ, I'm not technically fluent in these things........was just a hunch and hence, I asked the question

I know. See, this config helps all speeds. Also a large wing surface gives hell lot of lift. Its an ideal bomb truck if designers want it to be. It could better fly the nil wind conditions as both large wing surface + FBW kick in. With GE-414 IN, it will have a very good thrust too. IMO, Kaveri dry thrust could do too.

So, a good thrust, large wing surface and FBW makes it very potent. Just like most modern deltas.

AFIK, in terms of complexity of this delta design, only f-22, F-35 are more complex. Some guru can correct me here.

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 13 Oct 2010 21:39

nikhil_p wrote:
NRao wrote: I tried to find out what is done to accommodate the "spin" you mention. Have not found it so far, but, I suspect that there is a switch that accommodates for that.
IIRC the FBW control software has a program to put the aircraft into a spin. This is controlled by the instructor. The system will auto recover if after a certain delay (time, alt) the pilot is not able to do it.

but isn't this spin thing is nearly obsolete now , because almost all new aircraft will have FBW controls . and we know its nearly impossible to control a aircraft manually if FBW system malfunctions . as most of aircraft are build with relaxed stability , eg was our su 30 crash over pokharan where master control switch was accidentally switched off leading to FBW system shut off.
spin test may be used to enhance confidence to new pilots . but other then that going further it may be thing of past

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Oct 2010 21:46

uddu wrote:Rather than wait and go for a non-ending tender process why not induct 22 LCH's as heavy attack helis. Let them not reach the height they were supposed to fly. Let these 22 be fitted with high weapon load for low level operations.

It is not all about payload. LCH can carry payload comparable to any heavy attack helicopter in the world. The only difference will be its relatively lower caliber nexter gun and even that will be nitpicking. The major difference is armor protection. Each helicopter type has its own ups and downs and they can rarely have interchangeable roles, hence the tender for "heavy" attack helicopter.
Again, this has been discussed numerous times here. It would be extremely helpful if members would search previous avatars of the threads before asking questions. It is also highly recommended to search for lch vs apache performance charts and discussions which are probably now in archives. They had brought up excellent discussion.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 13 Oct 2010 22:43

Reg Spin training and hawks, Air Marshal RAjkumar wrote an article on the Hawk/Alphajet evaluation - Spin Training was a must have criteria - The Alphajet came up tops in terms of the Spinning characteristics. The article was published in Vayu and is a great read if someone can scan it. (It probably was, must be somewhere on the forum).

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 13 Oct 2010 23:15

Pratik_S wrote:
Shameek wrote:Do note that these airforces do not operate prototype versions of the aircraft as a part of their teams.
Yes, that makes sense. Well my comment to use LCA for SKAT was not a thought one. But personally I still believe the Ambassadors of IAF should use a Indian Aircraft.

I agree with that. To copy an idea from the Amirkhans, we could have a LCA demo team that tours all air shows. The USAF/USN have demo teams for the F-18, AV-8 and F-22. These usually perform at air shows in addition to the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels and are somewhat more 'technical' displays showcasing the capabilities of the aircraft.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 14 Oct 2010 01:08

AnuragK wrote:American Weapons for China - President Obama Pushes for Sale of C-130s to China

Not quite.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... s_to_china

Two administration officials said that, in substance, the waiver is extremely limited and doesn't reflect a change in policy: It only allows C-130 planes to land, refuel, and take off in China for oil spill cleanup operations in China or in parts of Asia that requires transiting China.

"The president's waiver allows for the temporary export to China of C-130 aircraft only for the purposes of refueling and/or resupplying with oil spill chemical dispersants in China as necessary for oil spill response operations in the Southeast Asia region," said National Security Council spokesman Mike Hammer. "No C-130 has gone to China or is being sold to China; this is just a waiver for a contingency plan."

Administration officials told The Cable that the State Department will still need to review and issue licenses for any C-130s that travel to China, and that this waiver was granted at the behest of allied countries.

"A European company that has C-130s wanted to be able to use them in a disaster response in that region and needed the waiver just in case they needed to land in China," a senior administration official told The Cable.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Oct 2010 02:59

Crap. I was hoping to get a few copies of Chinese made C-130s.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 14 Oct 2010 06:04

Not quite.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... s_to_china

Two administration officials said that, in substance, the waiver is extremely limited and doesn't reflect a change in policy: It only allows C-130 planes to land, refuel, and take off in China for oil spill cleanup operations in China or in parts of Asia that requires transiting China.

"The president's waiver allows for the temporary export to China of C-130 aircraft only for the purposes of refueling and/or resupplying with oil spill chemical dispersants in China as necessary for oil spill response operations in the Southeast Asia region," said National Security Council spokesman Mike Hammer. "No C-130 has gone to China or is being sold to China; this is just a waiver for a contingency plan."

Administration officials told The Cable that the State Department will still need to review and issue licenses for any C-130s that travel to China, and that this waiver was granted at the behest of allied countries.

"A European company that has C-130s wanted to be able to use them in a disaster response in that region and needed the waiver just in case they needed to land in China," a senior administration official told The Cable.

Another example of journalistic enthusiasm getting in the way of the truth - thanks George!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Oct 2010 06:25

vivekmehta wrote:
but isn't this spin thing is nearly obsolete now , because almost all new aircraft will have FBW controls . and we know its nearly impossible to control a aircraft manually if FBW system malfunctions . as most of aircraft are build with relaxed stability ,

Vivek I don't think "all aircraft" that are FBW also have relaxed stability. Perfectly stable aircraft can have FBW too. All aircraft can technically go into a spin - it is not as if FBW wil prevent that from occurring. Any plane without engine power that starts falling out of the sky will be in a spin - such as might occur if the engine flames out as the plane is near the top of a loop. There is nothing the FBW can do about that. So the spin characteristics of every plane must be tested and trainees taught what to do if the plane is in a spin in order to recover from the spin.

Spin characteritics of planes vary. Many aircraft are apparently "kind" in that the rapidly get themselves out of spin with simple maneuvers (requiring training) as long as they have enough altitude. Others are vicious spinners and could go into an unrecoverable spin.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Oct 2010 10:29

I saw in a discovery programe on the flight testing programe for the F18 E, that during spin tests they had attached an extra chute on the aircraft in case the pilot was unable to recover the aircraft from the spin. But it was only for the test aircraft, Could some thing similar be tried for I service aircraft,

Also in the movie Red flag, (It had F 4s and A4s and dealt with the Red Flag programme of the USAF ) in some manuvers the aircrafts were shown using their tail chutes in the air for braking and coming out of a dive. Not sure if that was a service procedure for the F4s.

But it was quite impressive.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 14 Oct 2010 18:00

Spin can occur even with FBW enabled aircrafts but they do decrease the possibility of such a event happening. Also I don't know if the Indian Hawks have FBW but considering the fact that they are AJT used for final course training they should have it as most modern fighters are FBW enabled and all the future IAF fighters will be too.

@ Sameek
Yes, this is bound to happen. In fact LCA has shown its technical aspects to the world via Aero India, Nat Geo and other medium.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Oct 2010 19:06

Indian Air Force secured the skies during Commonwealth Games

Kudos to everyone, not just the IAF, for making sure the games are secure!

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 14 Oct 2010 19:17

rohitvats wrote:Questions - Are aircraft like Tejas - a double delta - even suited for aerobatic displays?

Then you have not seen this sir , this is a mind bloogling Solo M2k low flying aerobatic show

http://www.madskies.com/196/mirage-2000/

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 14 Oct 2010 20:36

^^
Wow! That tailslide would put even Su-30 to shame. Thanks for posting that video. It was very nice.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Oct 2010 21:23

venku_Raj wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Questions - Are aircraft like Tejas - a double delta - even suited for aerobatic displays?

Then you have not seen this sir , this is a mind bloogling Solo M2k low flying aerobatic show

http://www.madskies.com/196/mirage-2000/

Many thanx for the link.

jai · Post by **jai** » 14 Oct 2010 23:39

http://www.madskies.com/196/mirage-2000/

Gives you a sense of why the IAF loves its Mirages so much.....

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Oct 2010 00:40

Not related to this thread, but I hope the moderators let us indulge with this eyecandy ... here's a beautiful video with Mirages. It's one of my favourites, though it doesn't showcase the prowess of the figther platform as such.

Youtube video

Spare the occasional appearance of the Alphajet.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Oct 2010 00:58

We are gonna face a future where

Barbaria - 150 + Eagles , half of them possibly silent eagles
70+ EFs

AD - 79 + F-16 block 60
say 50 + mission capable upgraded M-2000

IN requires some serious planes on future carriers, serious EW. Navalized FGFA should be top priority.

Fleet air defense as well.

IAF needs loads of tankers.

We also need to roll out long range hypersonic precision strike in the next decade.

Also the EW capability needs to be one that is crossed with cyber warfare capability to produce a hybrid.

An awesome growth in Indian naval aviation capabilities is also a great way to ensure that none of the barbarian shit gets transferred to the Pukes.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 15 Oct 2010 01:08

indranilroy wrote:Not related to this thread, but I hope the moderators let us indulge with this eyecandy ... here's a beautiful video with Mirages. It's one of my favourites, though it doesn't showcase the prowess of the figther platform as such.

Youtube video

Spare the occasional appearance of the Alphajet.

Its from the french film "Les Chevaliers du Ciel". This film is a demonstration of the most amazing aerial filming. There are many other "must watch" video compilation of the film available on youtube (some of them even in HD).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Oct 2010 08:56

jai wrote:
http://www.madskies.com/196/mirage-2000/

Gives you a sense of why the IAF loves its Mirages so much.....

We can also understand why LCA, NFGA (if ever) and FGFA's are going to be loved by IAF.