People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Nov 2010 23:22

What makes the Chinese leadership fail to understand that the Dalai Lama in India is as much an obstacle for the destiny of Tibet as that in the way of Chinese communist ambitions of imperialism? As long as he lives, he is an insurance for the Chinese occupiers of Tibet. Once he is no more then the real fun starts.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 06 Nov 2010 00:42

"We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities-Delhi, Bombay,
Calcutta," he said. "They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill
off a hundred or two hundred million people. They should fire at us and it
would all be over. They have acted so badly toward us; they have been so
mean'".

Is this ba$tard for real? After his ancestors took on the religion of camel stealing, mass murdering barbarians then raped and/or murdered-tortured tens of millions of Hindus, his father and father's peers helped ethnically cleanse Paquistan leaving them with their current inbred cretin ROP loving population. Indians have been MEAN to him???

So poverty, illiteracy, backwardness and Islam are clustered together in yet another country. Who would of thunk it. Yes indeed, the Paquis Chinese overlords need to be told in no uncertain terms that a Paqui (made in China) nuke attack on India will result in a lot of empty Chinese office buildings and thier surrounding population going up in smoke.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Nov 2010 00:58

wlin wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:dumbest thing? but the CCP is making money by doing it, and growing prosperity for Chinese citizens
whats bad about that?
That is what the CCP leaders' thinking. If talking about strategy, does it make any sense? There are so many countries that we can sale power generators. Why put India at the top of the list? Why not the buttom of the list? Here is what we are doing right now, we sign the contract, we loan you the money, our price is good, our interest is low. we send our skilled workers to India. They lived on site and all their only mind there is to finish the project as quick as possilbe and go back home to counting money. In China, we pay engineer not on hour base but per job.

If not China, let us say Eurpoean company, you have a much higher price and deliveried slowly. Their loan cost your more. They send you 400-dollar-per-hour engineers to stay at five star hotel to install it.

Man, I am not saying that we do not do infra business with you. But is it better for us to help you in 2020s something when we can send you, let''s say, some 200 dollar-per-hour engineers.

Lalmohan wrote:btw - your retort of pearls against dalai lama makes no sense. its comparing apples with oranges
No I did not compare them. If you think that way, you have my apology.

Wlin , Recently when Indian govt. banned chinese telecom vendors like Huawei and ZTE from supplying equipment to Indian telecom operators , these companies were literally begging to stay in the competition and to lift the ban.Even the Chinese govt. started requesting Indian govt to lift the ban.

So even we do not want your companies here.Although we try to be fair to all.You got to understand that you are making money out of us.You should be grateful to us not the other way around.As far as India is concerned we will get that equipment from other vendors.So what if there is some delay.Atleast equipment from Nokia and Ericsson would be much better in terms of quality and will be cheaper in the long run.

http://www.cn-c114.net/583/a507793.html

China's commerce ministry said on Monday New Delhi should not discriminate against Chinese firms, but did not directly condemn a bar on
Indian operators buying telecoms equipment from two Chinese companies.

India has banned mobile phone operators from placing orders with ZTE Corp and Huawei Technologies because of security concerns, industry sources say.

But Beijing, which has not shied away from criticising other countries, including the United States, over investment and trade restrictions, appears to be downplaying the ban.

Commerce Ministry Spokesman Yao Jian, when asked about the ban, said New Delhi should aim for a fair and transparent investment climate and emphasised the large stake Indian firms have in the Chinese market.

"We hope that (Indian) policies to be launched should be fair to all enterprises...and should not discriminate against Chinese enterprises," Yao told a regular news conference, in Beijing's most extensive comments on the issue so far.

"The investment by Indian firms in China is larger than Chinese firms' investment in India, and China has created a very good service and investment environment for foreign investment."

He also urged China's neighbour and rival to carry out any investigation according to international rules, rather than in a rushed fashion, but gave no further details.

Given the huge amount of business at stake, officials on both sides are likely to be keen to ensure the issue does not snowball, probably aiming to resolve it through dialogue, in the same manner other twitchy issues have been dealt with.

"We hope that the two countries can improve cooperation and negotiation to solve the problem," Yao said, and emphasised that Chinese companies have always "paid attention" to localisation -- manufacturing at least a portion of their products in foreign countries when they invest there.

The two firms blocked from what has become the world's fastest-growing mobile market said last week they may build factories in India as they scrambled to allay security fears.

India worries that Chinese telecoms network equipment can be used for spying or loaded with "malware". It also fears a rival could shut down telecoms service during a time of crisis.

A series of attacks on Indian government websites by suspected Chinese hackers has also hardened the authorities' position on importing potentially sensitive equipment from China.

Indian government ministers and officials have repeatedly denied any country-specific ban; it is mandatory for all Indian telecom carriers to seek security clearance from the telecom ministry before placing a purchase order, Chinese or otherwise.

Just check how the CCP is begging to Indian govt.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 06 Nov 2010 01:09

Is this ba$tard for real? After his ancestors took on the religion of camel stealing, mass murdering barbarians then raped and/or murdered-tortured tens of millions of Hindus, his father and father's peers helped ethnically cleanse Paquistan leaving them with their current inbred cretin ROP loving population. Indians have been MEAN to him???

Here's a Photoo and Profile Pic -- for the Future mass murderer -- NOTE --> he is clean shaven whisky drinking jihadi .. at one time appointed Min for Tourism by Moosharaf !!

http://www.ncrd.gov.pk/profile2.php

Brig (Retd) Amanullah was commissioned in Pakistan Army in May 1966 and as an officer he served on various commands, Staff and important assignments that contributed to national security. After graduation from Command and Staff College Quetta, he served there for two years. He was also seconded to Ministry of Foreign Affairs for a Pakistan mission abroad. He retired from Pakistan Army in December, 1996, and then assisted Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto in working for Pakistan for eleven years till the day of her shahadat on December 27, 2007. Brig. Aman served as Managing Director Pakistan Tourism Development Corporation for one year during 2008-2009 and then assumed his charge as Director General, National Center for Rural Development in March 2009.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Nov 2010 01:49

Vivek K wrote:

Wlin: Sorry for ruining the party. So anybody saying something that make you not feeling good is a troll.
Calm down. I am leaving.
You got it right! Get out!

Acharya: Ha Ha !!!

WTF! What sort of response is that.? Vivek, i am sure the privilege to tell someone to 'get out' belongs to admins here. Chinese posters will have a different mindset than we are exposed to. The more mature and civilized way is to address that as Shiv ji, Rajesh Ji, Leonard ji, Darshan ji and others have attempted.

You are degrading the forum IMHO by such rude terseness. Nothing Wlin said warranted that response.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Nov 2010 01:54

If Dalai is such a thorn in India, imagine what sort of a thorn China's presence is in Tibet and specially Kailash- Mansarover is for India.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Nov 2010 02:01

harbans wrote: You are degrading the forum IMHO by such rude terseness. Nothing Wlin said warranted that response.

Harbans paaji, pls read the efforts of the poster to troll and drag all forum members into arguments and insubstantive debates - i.e. since China so graciuosly agreed to supply $8.5 billion worth of power equipment to Reliance, the CPC is helping build Indian infrastructure ..... and so on.

Please note the response of one of the admins. I do not think I overstepped any line. Wlin is welcome for a substantive debate not to needlessly provoke all and sundry. That is my story my friend, and I am sticking to it!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Nov 2010 02:17

Vivek Ji, fine. But he is saying that Huawei and other Chinese Companies are offering the deal at much cheaper rates. Can we spell or point out the security threats involved that make the money savings GOI or Private concerns make as less relevent. It's easy to point out that many of these companies have direct involvement of CPC high ups. Security can be an issue in Telecom etc. Form a Chinese posters POV, their country is offering the best deal. He is just stating that. Why be rude about it?

Without pointing out why a good deal is bad..is accepting the BD forum poster asking an Indian to get out, coz he tells BD citizens to get a road connecting NE with Calcutta.. will bring benefits to both parties. Anyways..JMT/

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Nov 2010 02:19

Well your read is different from mine. I consider his posts rude and you choose to overlook that and find mine rude. To each his own.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Nov 2010 02:28

Dalai Lama is as much an enemy of China as Mother Teresa was for India. Hope you get it.

Karna Ji, it's not so as HH is a political entity and the rightful head of Tibet. Tibetans want him and not the CPC to be their head..The analogy is not appropriate to me as yet, needs some explaining from your side, what it means. Moreover HH being a Dharmic son of India, is not out to convert or evangelize.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 06 Nov 2010 02:29

I agree with Harbans. Nothing WLin has said (so far) constitutes trolling. He has his own viewpoint and he has put it forward without overtly flamebaiting anybody.

If we cannot counter even the fallacious points he brings up (so easy to do in a level-headed way), but must instead holler at him to "get out", it demonstrates the foundational weakness of our arguments... not his.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Nov 2010 02:34

Great!

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 06 Nov 2010 02:49

Any chini bhai using words like " idiot,stupid,monkey etc" is asking for instant zhapad. I have always noticed one pattern
- Chini comes and start reasonable comments
- Then he adds some bits here and there that makes you fall off chair.........we laugh and ignore
-By now Chini is more confident(that anything goes) and start shitting overtly ...............using abuses like idiot and stupid etc. For them it is normal because that is how they are addressed by superiors in China.
- By this time some warm blooded Admin do the needful but some guys are ready to take more and they complain.
So do not cry, this troll will be back again but at least he will be civilized for sometime

Guys who are against word "get out"......are doing big mistake because that is how you convey right message. Chinese understand this perfectly alas nobody in GOI has ball to tell them this.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Nov 2010 03:00

And then there are those that criticize the WKKs then come back with things like "... demonstrates the foundational weakness of our arguments... not his". Foundational weakness?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 06 Nov 2010 03:18

Guys who are against word "get out"......are doing big mistake because that is how you convey right message. Chinese understand this perfectly alas nobody in GOI has ball to tell them this.

Really? You're not even convincing die hard anti CCP folks like me with your one liners "get out". This forum i know has enough intellectual depth to slam PRC arguments on as Rudradev Ji mentioned a level headed way than some who'd like an end by saying "get out", "**** off", "liar", or stick to bizarre 'one liner' type arguments.

If you know the first arguments of "get out" were given by the ultimate Psec: JLN. He lost all. He could'nt relate to Tibet or even to Aksai Chin or non ex. His arguments were weak or non existent. He told his General to "Get out" because he did'nt wan't to hear a defense plan, he did'nt want to hear. His Macaulyte education prevented him from reading Chinese traveler Hseun Tsangs own account of Tibet: " I met 5000 people in the region of present day Lop Nor..all practising the religion of India".

"Get Out" does not work if you are to educate and answer basic queries. If you have to avoid them without proper answers in that manner, well it shows an absolutely fundamental weakness. And IMHO i too did'nt see anything here where Wlin has trolled. He has only put his queries from a PRC POV or in instances a business POV.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 06 Nov 2010 03:25

Right. Replying to easily-punctured arguments with "get out" does not indicate any possibility of intellectual bankruptcy, and anyone who points out that it does, must of course be a WKK.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 06 Nov 2010 03:33

rsingh wrote: -By now Chini is more confident(that anything goes) and start shitting overtly ...............using abuses like idiot and stupid etc. For them it is normal because that is how they are addressed by superiors in China.
.

Let him fail to argue rationally and get to that point of shitting overtly no? When he gets to that point, the demonstration is made that HIS arguments are foundationally weak, not ours. That he couldn't stand up to factual arguments and so HE had to start name-calling.

A few hundred people post on BRF. Many thousands read what is posted here, every day. If we cannot articulate our point of view even in response to such puerile arguments as WLin was making, but must take recourse to abuse and rudeness instead... what impression is being conveyed?

naren · Post by **naren** » 06 Nov 2010 03:44

brihaspati wrote:Actually I support Shiv ji's observation on the vulnerability of the outposts the PRC has tried to build up - which also happen to be around India. All of Chinese investments in Pak, or Tibet, or even in SL, Myanmar, BD, Malaysia - all are at easy strike distance of India if and when China tries to militarize them. Further, those insfratsructure will also come in handy for India in the future! We would just like to carry on this "indignant" shouting about IOR pearls because it suits our tactical interests to do so!

(Maybe Chinese observers should keep a copy of Tsun Zu or even Mao's little book on guerrilla warfare handy while interpreting this statement! never really trust your enemy to do what he says he will do - isnt it a common point in both?)

+1

Chinese pearl strategy comes from pretty outdated books and that too not properly applied ! "Go" strategy's analogy is surrounding your enemy on all directions and cutting off the supply lines in order to score smooth victory. If we look at the Go game, an opponents stone is surrounded by stones of the "same size". Just look at what China is attempting to do & how pathetic their application of their own strategy is ! Its like arming the rats and attempting to pin down the elephant.

Atleast the rats are milking the dlagon for what its worth. Good for them.

I wonder if there's any creative spirit still left in that illegitimate country to our North-East. Strategic thinking has been replaced by cute one liners like "watch the fires burn" and "kill with borrowed knife". Poor dlones, they dont even understand how they are being used here. They still think repeating a lie 100 times will make it true. Dlones - funded by Chinese tax payer (or should I say slave labour ?), but benefiting the... ah.. I'll let the Sun Tzu geniuses to figure out.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 06 Nov 2010 04:12

It should be remembered that most of this generation of youngsters and the next rung of leaders are products of one child policy followed vigorously from 1970s. Which means, their very existence was pre-approved by the CPC with permits for conception. So, they already feel lucky that the CPC has provided them a chance to exist. Anyone who did not have pre-approved permit were unlucky. So, the most of these pre-sorted lucky draws, have a instantaneous affinity to regimentation and servitude offered by CPC.

For the lack of exposure to alternatives from their pre-conception stage, they will do and defend what CPC dictates. In light of this, mostly will be spoiled narcissistic brats concerned overtly about image maintenance of the CPC. They clearly understand their role as cogs in a humongous machinery. They will be at loss, when and if suddenly offered freedom. The very possibility seems anathema to them.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?it ... ubcatid=15

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Nov 2010 04:37

The issue about telecom equipment can have very valid cover for the GOI to block the Chinese companies and justify not specifying the exact nature of the security threat to the Chinese companies. For the GOI may not want the Chinese to be able to try and cover up the security breach and make it difficult for the GOI to detect such deliberate trojans. It may not be that difficult to encode latent triggers and hide them from detection.

Even if all this is scifi the GOI can still use this line as a cover.

The second issue is about HH not being the head of state of Tibet and not being a political entity. As far as I know he was and still is considered the head of state of Tibet by Tibetans. The Dalai Lama institution combined both spiritual and temporal powers, and so far this has not been challenged by the Tibetan Legislature in exile.

In fact the formal treaties that external powers including pre-communist invasion China made with Tibetans were with the Dalai Lama as the head of the state.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 06 Nov 2010 05:33

JwalaMukhi wrote:It should be remembered that most of this generation of youngsters and the next rung of leaders are products of one child policy..

An entire generation of Chinese have grown up without knowing what it is to have a sibling. In addition, they have been spoiled rotten as children which will show in their adult character. Need to account for this when dealing with them at all levels.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 06:05

wlin wrote: Then this means China and India will never be close friends

I am planning to live for 2500 years. I hope you are too. That way we can find out whether you are right or wrong. Because people who make statements like "never" are actually doing something akin to attempting to fart in a quiet prayer hall. If it passes unnoticed - people only get the stink. But if it makes a sound you are caught. Why talk of things that you have no control over and pretend that you know all this. Cut the crap.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 06:08

wlin wrote:
shiv wrote: India does not have to overspend China. China has to overspend to keep her supply lines secure. There is no need for India to overspend. India already sits lik a hawk over the Indian ocean. It is silly of Indians to worry about the laughable "string of pearls" BRFites are definitely behind the curve here.
Why you think it is overspend. It cut China's shipping cost there. Like for Sri Lanka port, it is ideal for China to redistribute Chinese cargo to middle east and Africa. Right now this is done in Singapore which is very expense.

Boss who cares? You may be lying. When you have to save face you will spend a billion dollars and claim you got it all for free. This conversation has no future. You believe what you want. I will believe what i want.

You can't even you ask your government for an audit of the costs. But you will rationalize that and say "We don't need an audit. We are happy with what the government is doing, so what's it to you?". In china you are allowed to lie to yourself that everyone loves the government and what they tell you is right because more people are making money. If this is the Chinese way - I am fine with it. Just don't expect me to believe all that you say in the way you believe your government.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 06:11

wlin wrote: We will countine to build ports here and there. We will help any country which want to do business with us to build their infra. We will countinue to trade with anyone who want to trade with us. If this country do not to do business with us, we will trade with their neighbours. You can make enemy with Chinese. That is fine, most Chinese do not know it anyway. But do not make enemy with money.

Ahh. Now you are talking sense. Your logistics lines are long, and they will survive as long as you maintain friendly relations with all the countries who control YOUR logistics lines. That makes sense to me. Was is so difficult to accept that first time?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 06:52

Vivek K wrote:Well your read is different from mine. I consider his posts rude and you choose to overlook that and find mine rude. To each his own.

Some piskology here. If you get angry it makes him happy. His behavior is to provoke. For precisely that reason.

Clearly BRF has had people who have loosely spoken of "nuking China". He is mocking some of those people with good reason. No one is going to nuke anyone that easily - except maybe a Pak nuke on India. And India is not going to nuke China in retaliation.

This "prediction" is the basis for some Chinese coming on here to sing the Little Jack Horner rhyme, pat themselves on the back and say "Oh what a good boy am I"

The meaning of course is that China does not even have to nuke India when they have employed their whore Pakistan to do it for them. Ha Ha Ha. That is one "provocation" designed to cause impotent anger among Indians. It is perfectly true that India has to prepare for a nuclear attack from Pakistan. It is also true that China actually provided Pakistan with fissile material and the design of a bomb and actually tested a Pakistani bomb in Lop Nor in 1986. This is the Chinese way and the behavior is in keeping with Mao's statement that losing a few hundred million Chinese in a nuclear war would not be a big deal because China would stil have people left over to carry on. Of course, as I have repeatedly said on this forum, that is true for India as well.

China is growing. I don't think Indians grudge them that. India is growing in its own way - I have no idea whether the Chinese grudge India that - but the Chinese will be able to do very little to affect Indian growth other than by competing for resources and business. If the Chinese impose war then they can affect Indian growth, but equally India will affect the Chinese economy and growth. The same is true for a nuclear exchange between the two countries - even if each country just lobs 2-3 nukes on the other country in a mindless "limited" war.

I have heard people on BRF (and in the media) argue and say "India will be defeated and China will remain unaffected. India has only X tiny nukes and China has X^10 large nukes so we have already lost" I do not believe this to be true. These are Indian fears based on an Indian psyche of fear that has been discussed in various threads. An interesting article exists right now in the Indian interest thread about the Indian psyche of fear. It is up to Indians to see themselves as a people with spine. Until that happens we are only going to be discussing topics from the perspective of a person who sees himself as weak and displays impotent anger. This is what we seem to do on here more often than necessary. IMO.

It is important to look at China holistically and recognise its strengths and weaknesses. We (especially on BRF) have a tendency to overestimate China's strengths and underestimate Indian strengths. This is a national disease but fortunately many babus and military men do not have this disease. We punch below our weight because we can't even talk the language of bluff, brash confidence while we fall like suckers for the same language of bluff brash confidence coming from Pakistan, China or the US via Discovery channel. When BRF started a majority of people were angry at Pakistan but were in awe of its power. People would read Pakdef and come and lament India weakness on here. Years of collective research and observation have given us better understanding. Time to understand China better. At least so far a few of the Chinese who have come to this forum have shown themselves to be been able to talk on the same plane as we do - unlike Pakis who never made the grade although we have always had a smattering of smart people from every other country. Except Pakistan.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 Nov 2010 07:32

IMHO, the Chinese folks here provide some value. I would encourage them to stay, but some of them need to be more systematic in their approach. Too often they just walk away from inconvenient questions.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Nov 2010 09:18

shiv wrote:This is a national disease but fortunately many babus and military men do not have this disease.

All this talk of fear and shivering is irrelevent, unprovable and besides the point..I would just focus on the output expected of each constituency. I would judge babudom by what they have managed to negotiate with countries of interest to our foreign policy. Wrt China, I am sure you will agree our policy has been a total failure, and we have not managed to get China to accept any of our core concerns. Whether the babus have had this mysterious disease or not that you have enumerated in about thousand different posts, the bottomline is that they have been extremely poor negotiators.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 06 Nov 2010 09:22

The point is that rationality would preclude someone pressing the button in the first place.

Let's examine that a bit. With respect to Pakistan you are talking about a regime that has already carried out and demonstrated its ability to carry out genocide (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities). If that is not rational enough for your Chinese sense of ethics, consider the fact that this didn't stop China from handing out nuclear weapons to Pakistan knowing very well that if there is one country these nukes will be used against it is India.

Also, when talking about rationality (whatever that is supposed to mean to a CCP loving Chinese), keep in mind that you are from China and not from Norway. You support CCP, a regime whose rational record of supporting other regimes that carry out genocide (Pakistan, Sudan being just two examples) is extremely well documented.

Nukes when actually used are just a more sophisticated and efficient way of carrying out genocide.

They're not gonna nuke you, and you're not gonna nuke them, and that's just the way it is.

I hope so too, for yours as well as our own good, but if you consider Pakistani establishment rational that is your problem. Not mine.

Besides, it's a whole other step to nuke China in a nuclear exchange with Pakistan.

I guess a direct strike against China coming from India in a post-nuke senario where Pakistan has already nuked India with Chinese supplied nukes is too difficult for your sense of rationality.

But perhaps this won't be: Given that Pakistan will be using Chinese nukes against India, I am sure some part of Indian establishment (in a post nuke scenario) will bend over backwards to ensure that nukes not only get into wrong hands within China, but are actually used - You know just to return the favor of China arming Pakistan with nukes. Does this suit your sense of rationality more now?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 09:38

Arjun wrote: I am sure you will agree

This is a discussion forum - not an attempt at consolidating consensus. You state your views and I state mine. Whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant - our statements speak for themselves. Your agreement with me is completely unnecessary as far as I am concerned. I state what I think and not what "I am sure" you might think or agree with.

This whole idea of "getting China to accept our concerns" sounds like yet another ludicrous cop out - a feeble attempt at demanding something from others that is not going to happen - in the "I am sure the Chinese will agree" genre. On the lines of "maybe the US or Israel will take out Paki nukes"

How long will it be before Indians understand that "getting China to understand our core concerns" is not going to happen and there is no sense in banging our heads against that wall repeatedly. China is under no obligation to "understand our core concerns" and blaming babus or someone else is silly. As if making those babus disappear and putting some other mythical person in their place would magically make China "understand our core concerns". I have heard this nonsense so often even the humor in it has faded like an old joke.

Let's hear something new. All I hear is "China does not listen to our core concerns. So let us build up our arsenal and nuke China". I hear this on this forum. Not from babus. What have Indian babus got to do with this sick joke?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Nov 2010 09:48

shiv wrote:Clearly BRF has had people who have loosely spoken of "nuking China". He is mocking some of those people with good reason. No one is going to nuke anyone that easily - except maybe a Pak nuke on India. And India is not going to nuke China in retaliation.

What good reason??? Each and every poster out here has been talking about a hypothetical scenario of Pakistan first nuking India and has been discussing what India's policy should be / is following such a scenario. Are you saying there are rules against talking about such a scenario? Sounds rediculous to me - please detail out why that is mock-worthy.

Anyway, I judge everything on the basis of reciprocity...In case you feel it is not 'civilized' to discuss what nuclear policy should be following a nuclear attack, can we then agree that since China has not had a problem proliferating to other powers that part is somehow more kosher to talk about, and therefore we should not have a problem talking about proliferating to Vietnam. Also I presume in your judgement it is not OK to talk about what China's nuclear policy should be in the case of a hypothetical scenario where Vietnam launches Indian proliferated nuclear missilies against China.

wig · Post by **wig** » 06 Nov 2010 10:00

this is an example of the lack of rule of law in china for its own citizens. the Govt officials act pretty much on their own whims and fancies. there is no rule of law. nor do they have the judiciary ( something we have) as the third pillar of a modern society. this artist seems to have no right of appeal or place to go for redressal. in short- a state that is a terror for its citizens.

chinese sarkar in shanghai first implore an artist to set up a studio and then demolish it -while arresting the artist-

China Police Confine Prominent Artist
phalanx of Beijing police officers confined the prominent artist and activist Ai Weiwei to his north Beijing home on Friday, a move he suggested came at the behest of unnamed but powerful political figures in Shanghai who feared that he was about to embarrass them.

If so, they were correct.

Mr. Ai had planned to fly to Shanghai on Friday to prepare a Sunday goodbye party at his million-dollar art studio meant to draw attention to its pending destruction. In telephone interviews this week, Mr. Ai said he built the studio only after Shanghai officials, on a campaign to burnish the city’s cultural credentials, implored him to. But in July, they ordered the finished building demolished at the command of anonymous higher-ups.

On Friday, after he said he was going anyway, the officers placed him under house arrest — reluctantly, Mr. Ai said.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 06 Nov 2010 10:13

shiv wrote:
Arjun wrote:Not from babus. What have Indian babus got to do with this sick joke?

Shiv Sir,

The way you put it, it almost sounds like there is a hole in the nuclear doctrine when it comes to use of third party nukes against India.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Nov 2010 10:16

shiv wrote:How long will it be before Indians understand that "getting China to understand our core concerns" is not going to happen and there is no sense in banging our heads against that wall repeatedly. China is under no obligation to "understand our core concerns" and blaming babus or someone else is silly. As if making those babus disappear and putting some other mythical person in their place would magically make China "understand our core concerns". I have heard this nonsense so often even the humor in it has faded like an old joke.

I have a serious problem with your thoughts in this paragraph. Getting other countries to understand your core concerns is precisely the whole objective of negotiation and diplomacy. I agree there would always be some compromise, where one nation has to give in on some points in return for others. What we have in the case of China is a seriously one-sided relationship where China seems to have been tone-deaf to India's concerns.

I find it quite funny that you are saying India has NO leverage over China at all, and then you accuse everyone else of being consumed with fear about China. If you are saying that India has NO leverage over China, then in my mind it is you who are subsumed by fear. There are enough and more creative ways in trade and other means to create leverage, which I am sure even our babus are aware of though they do not seem to have used any means effectively.

I have more respect for the babu in China in one of the articles you had forwarded who crawled on the table and banged his footwear at the US and essentially made the point very clear that the US was not to interfere in Taiwan - that is a guy who was working for his country and I would tip my hat off to him ! What have our babus done to convey the depth of our feeing on Pakistan to China?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 10:54

Arjun wrote: Anyway, I judge everything on the basis of reciprocity...In case you feel it is not 'civilized' to discuss what nuclear policy should be following a nuclear attack, can we then agree that since China has not had a problem proliferating to other powers that part is somehow more kosher to talk about, and therefore we should not have a problem talking about proliferating to Vietnam. Also I presume in your judgement it is not OK to talk about what China's nuclear policy should be in the case of a hypothetical scenario where Vietnam launches Indian proliferated nuclear missilies against China.

There is an entire thread devoted to that (named "Deterrence") on which I have posted my views for perhaps a year. That is why I am not interested in talking about that on here. The issue of nuclear war IN MY VIEW goes beyond the two or more nations who use nukes on each other.

I do not believe that India will proliferate to Vietnam, and if it does I do not believe that India wll make a public policy statement to that effect. China to date has never admitted proliferation to Pakistan. In fact even the US did not acknowledge that and the only things that helped bring the iisue some credibility were the story of an American whistleblower and more recently Xerox Khan's own admission - a copy of which I have archived somewhere, stating the amount of weapons grade Uranium and UF6 that China gave to Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2010 10:55

Arjun wrote: I have a serious problem with your thoughts in this paragraph. Getting other countries to understand your core concerns is precisely the whole objective of negotiation and diplomacy. I agree there would always be some compromise, where one nation has to give in on some points in return for others. What we have in the case of China is a seriously one-sided relationship where China seems to have been tone-deaf to India's concerns.

I find it quite funny that you are saying India has NO leverage over China at all, and then you accuse everyone else of being consumed with fear about China. If you are saying that India has NO leverage over China, then in my mind it is you who are subsumed by fear. There are enough and more creative ways in trade and other means to create leverage, which I am sure even our babus are aware of though they do not seem to have used any means effectively.

I have more respect for the babu in China in one of the articles you had forwarded who crawled on the table and banged his footwear at the US and essentially made the point very clear that the US was not to interfere in Taiwan - that is a guy who was working for his country and I would tip my hat off to him ! What have our babus done to convey the depth of our feeing on Pakistan to China?

I do not recall saying ANYWHERE that India has no leverage with China. That is a figment of your imagination. I am talking about your "logical" thought process that connects indian babu negotiating skills with lack of success.

If one approaches the question of "China accepting anyone's core concerns" logically it is easy to see that China has no problem whatsoever in accepting Pakistan's core concerns about India. Similarly one finds that the US too accepts Pakistan's core concerns about India and has rarely accepted India's core concerns.

Why does China not accept India's core concerns? You have stated that our babus are poor negotiators. Using that yardstick one could say that Pakistani negotiators are good negotiators who have made China understand Pakistan's core concerns.

Now what is it that Pakistani negotiators have done to make China understand Pakistan's core concerns that Indian babu negotiators have failed to do? Perhaps we need to look at what it was that Pakistan offered on the table to sweeten the deal and get China to accept Pakistan's "core concerns"?

If you feel like taking a shot at what Pakistan did that India cannot do then perhaps we can suggest that Indian negotiators take a stand similar to that of Pakistani negotiators to get China to understand our core concerns.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Nov 2010 12:08

shiv wrote: If you feel like taking a shot at what Pakistan did that India cannot do then perhaps we can suggest that Indian negotiators take a stand similar to that of Pakistani negotiators to get China to understand our core concerns.

India does not need to offer GUBO services like Pakistan

The solution to the issue is not to compare with Pakistan, but instead follow a logical process of understanding India's leverage to each contentious issue-

1. Enumerate all areas of contention where India needs China's policy to change (eg Pakistan policy, Arunachal, stapled visa, trade, UNSC etc)

2. For some of the smaller issues (eg stapled visa) where China's motivation is purely to test out how far they can go in needling India, babus list out all the areas of leverage India has to change China's policy. This would include tit-for-tat policy in issuing stapled visa for Tibet and possibly other measures which India should go ahead and implement but for some inexplicable reason has not undertaken so far.

3. For the larger issues, such as Arunachal and Pakistan, babus list out what what areas of leverage are available to get China to change its policy. This would neccessitate a good understanding of what it is that is important to China. If the answer is that India does not have sufficient leverage currently, then the next step is to look at what can be done to increase the leverage so as to bring it to parity. How does India create its very own 'tallel and deepel' friendship with the appropriate party next door to China? Who are the nations India can ally with and invest in in order to create its own string of pearls. Is India using the India- US-China dynamics in the right manner to secure its interests with both the US and China? All of the techniques that RajeshA has done an excellent job of highlighting. Just the talk of India's string of pearls seems to have brought China to heel in some sense now...

4. Before you bring up the natural rebuttal to this, all of this assumes that India is parallely working on growing the economy at 9 - 10% or better. There is no dissonance between growing the economy at 10% AND taking the steps outlined above.

5. My point is that objectively speaking India's Pakistan and China policy have been failures up until now, since neither country has shown appreciation for India's concerns. India's leaders and babus have to be evaluated over a period of 5 years, in a very objective manner, on their ability to counteract / mitigate / remove these thorns from India's side.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Nov 2010 12:12

shiv wrote:I do not recall saying ANYWHERE that India has no leverage with China. That is a figment of your imagination.

You said the following...

How long will it be before Indians understand that "getting China to understand our core concerns" is not going to happen and there is no sense in banging our heads against that wall repeatedly.

That is equivalent to saying India has no leverage with China.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 06 Nov 2010 13:49

DavidD wrote: Yea, but you forgot to consider the fact that China could threaten Russia and the U.S. with nukes since they're the real masters of India(hey, doesn't have to be true!). Then they'll help China nuke India so they won't get nuked by China for "retaliation"

DavidD wrote: Sure, but they'd have their major cities laying in ruins too, so why would they do that? Why wouldn't they just avoid it by nuking India instead? They can escape from this whole ordeal unscathed, with only India lying in ruins.

And in all your infinite wisdom why would China risk complete annihilation by threatening both US and Russia together. China will survive even after being hit by India, but will China survive if US and Russian decide to call their bluff and nuke China many times over to make sure that the all might Han is wiped out of the face of earth. And you are calling Indians suicidal and irrational

And did you factored into your calculations that what if west has different plans, after Chinese threats to US and Russia, the moment India gets hits all three Americans, Russians and Indians return the favor by showering China with their Thank you gifts. West has too much to gain in this, just in one sweep West would have wiped out the fountain head of terrorism, and would have permanently mutilated two potential rivals two both US and Russia and West as a whole.

And the way Dragon has shown its teeth prematurely to the world, after this exchange US, Russia and even Japan

would make sure that the dragon remain toothless for a very very long time. Think about it dude before making such brazen statements like threatening US and Russia.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 06 Nov 2010 13:59

I think china fu$ked up. It underestimated the seriousness of the indo-pak conflict. I think it has just begun to dawn upon the chinese the sadistic angle between india and pakistan.

They chinese seem to be very sure that the chances of a nuclear conflict between the two countries are remote. They have ignored to see the reason behind radicalization of pakistan in zia's rule. Are the pakistani's playing the chinese and americans equally?

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 06 Nov 2010 14:10

Arjun wrote:
DavidD wrote: I just don't think the Pakis are as suicidal as you guys portray them to be
And you are talking about the suicide bombing capital of the world Do the Chinese read newspapers or follow the news at all?

Dude, all the Chinese read newspaper.... Its just that the news comes from CPC which cooks up everything except the date