Indian Naval Discussion

koti · Post by **koti** » 03 Nov 2010 00:24

^^ No sirji. Harriers cannot be operated from Jalashwa. Even-though a harrier may manage to take off using VTOL,it wouldn't be with any meaningful load.
However, some 10 additional Harrier II's will definitely add some punch to the existing Viraat. These birds will have better radars and weapons, A higher load and better range. We could actually retire some of the older harrier airframes and replace most of the on-board deployments with the new birds.

IMO the Viraat is going nowhere at-least till 2017-18. That will be a good service for these birds and post Viraat's retirement, these can be used on IAC or Vikramaditya with ease as they still will have enough life in their airframes till 2025 atleast.

Only if the deal is cheap enough of course.

koti · Post by **koti** » 03 Nov 2010 00:30

And post retirement we could gift the Viraat with the Harriers to Vietnam.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 03 Nov 2010 00:46

koti wrote:^^ No sirji. Harriers cannot be operated from Jalashwa. Even-though a harrier may manage to take off using VTOL,it wouldn't be with any meaningful load.
However, some 10 additional Harrier II's will definitely add some punch to the existing Viraat. These birds will have better radars and weapons, A higher load and better range. We could actually retire some of the older harrier airframes and replace most of the on-board deployments with the new birds.

IMO the Viraat is going nowhere at-least till 2017-18. That will be a good service for these birds and post Viraat's retirement, these can be used on IAC or Vikramaditya with ease as they still will have enough life in their airframes till 2025 atleast.

Only if the deal is cheap enough of course.

Umm...what radars do the GR7 and GR9 have. These aren't SHARs...are they?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Nov 2010 00:48

I'm wondering which bright soul in UK's Ministry of Defence thought that the IAF would like to operate the Harrier alongside the Su-30MKI and MMRCA.

The only reason the IN would ever be interested (forget about the IAF) is because the INS Viraat can serve till 2020 but has a very inadequate air complement. We'd be willing to buy the Harriers (assuming of course that there isn't any nonsense about the radar) and operate them for the next 10 years, but no further. Assuming of course the Brits realize its cheaper to sell or even lease the Harrier than to condemn it to a museum.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Nov 2010 00:50

IMO, Viraat will be around until IAC-1 becomes operational. With the older SHARs dropping like flies, it might not be a bad idea to get some GR9s, even if it is just for training purposes and to keep skills current.

One thing which I've noticed is that the British press (and some veterans) are lamenting the loss of pilot skills. Apparently it costs upto £3mln to train a Harrier pilot. We could revive the old commonwealth exchange program and bring some RN pilots on board albeit for short period. Would not be a bad way to learn from their experiences. And perhaps we could get the aircraft even more cheaply if we allow their pilots to stay current.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Nov 2010 00:52

All GR7s were retired last year.

GR9s don't have any radar. Can only use fire-and-forget missiles. Though have useful PGM capability.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 03 Nov 2010 01:00

Just heard that India has placed orders for construction of 5 Aircraft Carrier with Kochi Shipyards. Second IAC will be bigger that IAC-1 and will be named INS Viraat followed b the third which will be even bigger than the second and probably Nuclear Powered will be named INS Vishal. Two further IACs' are still in drawing definition phase.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Nov 2010 01:04

^^^^^ Source??

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Nov 2010 01:07

K_Rohit wrote:
koti wrote:^^ No sirji. Harriers cannot be operated from Jalashwa. Even-though a harrier may manage to take off using VTOL,it wouldn't be with any meaningful load.
However, some 10 additional Harrier II's will definitely add some punch to the existing Viraat. These birds will have better radars and weapons, A higher load and better range. We could actually retire some of the older harrier airframes and replace most of the on-board deployments with the new birds.

IMO the Viraat is going nowhere at-least till 2017-18. That will be a good service for these birds and post Viraat's retirement, these can be used on IAC or Vikramaditya with ease as they still will have enough life in their airframes till 2025 atleast.

Only if the deal is cheap enough of course.
Umm...what radars do the GR7 and GR9 have. These aren't SHARs...are they?

The SHAR was a Sea Harrier. The GR7 and GR9 are Harrier IIs. No radar or MRAAMs, but we can fit them out with a LUSH type suite - Elta EL/M-2032 + Derby/Python-5.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Nov 2010 01:12

Viv S wrote:
The SHAR was a Sea Harrier. The GR7 and GR9 are Harrier IIs. No radar or MRAAMs, but we can fit them out with a LUSH type suite - Elta EL/M-2032 + Derby/Python-5.

No we can't. Doesn't even have space for radar unless you make significant changes to forward fuselage. Not to mention wiring, cooling, power, and other issues.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 03 Nov 2010 02:26

deleted - please respect copyright

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Nov 2010 02:30

Nirmal, please provide a link to the original article. It may be from livefist.blogspot.com, but it is a convention to post the link to the original article as it provides a reference for others

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Nov 2010 08:34

I thought the keel was laid long back and google earth shows the ship under construction in modular sections

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 03 Nov 2010 10:40

Current no. of Harriers on Viraat - 3

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Nov 2010 10:51

VikB wrote:Current no. of Harriers on Viraat - 3

Viraats expected years in service - 3 (7 at the very maximum after engine, hull and electronics refurbishing).

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Nov 2010 11:34

Viv S wrote:I'm wondering which bright soul in UK's Ministry of Defence thought that the IAF would like to operate the Harrier alongside the Su-30MKI and MMRCA.

Some Hinglishman who thinks the Hinglish still rule the world and the Third World countries can be conned to accept their shit.

K

PS. Harrier is NOT shit. I like the Harrier but I think it has outlived its usefulness especially India is concerned

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 03 Nov 2010 12:00

The no 5 has been doing the rounds for a number of years now so there must be some truth in it. But I dont think that the IAC-2 will be of similar displacement of 37,000. The defence minister himself has said that it would be a larger one probably of 64000 T displacement. For nuclear powered AC's we will have to wait I guess.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Nov 2010 13:52

shukla wrote:
VikB wrote:Current no. of Harriers on Viraat - 3
Viraats expected years in service - 3 (7 at the very maximum after engine, hull and electronics refurbishing).

Of what use is Viraat with only 3 strike aircraft ? (Not counting choppers)

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Nov 2010 14:07

VikB wrote:Current no. of Harriers on Viraat - 3

Does it even qualify to be called a "fighter carrying carrier" with just 3 aircraft on board?

Could as well redesignate Viraat as a Helo carrier and stuff it with ALHs and Sea Kings..

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 03 Nov 2010 14:24

Flight deck treatment on Vikramaditya

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2010 14:57

Standardisation in the Russian navy taking place,informative report.Some interesting titbits about Russia also going to nuild Talwar class FFGs for its own navy.

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101102/161183586.html

Russian Navy to standardize its warships and submarines

Consequently, it was decided to expedite the process and to begin construction on the Project 11356 Talwar class frigates, which are on a par with the new warships. Russia has already built several such ships for the Indian Navy.

These frigates should have the same interchangeable components - including equipment and main weapons systems - as next-generation warships. Eight next-generation frigates, as well as the same number of Project 11356 warships, are to be commissioned in the next ten years.

The Russian Navy is to receive 30 frigates and 30 corvettes in the next 20 years.

Frigates will be followed by even larger warships. It is no secret that Russia has almost finished designing a next-generation destroyer, with a displacement of 10,000 metric tons. The new warship is to be equipped with standard launchers, a standard information-and-control system and other interchangeable equipment.

Corvettes, frigates and next-generation destroyers will form the backbone of the Navy's warship fleet in the next 20-30 years.

Without these new ships, it would be pointless to buy French-made Mistral class amphibious assault ships, to build them in Russia, to overhaul and refit the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier and to build other aircraft carriers.

Here's another about the US trying to rope in India and Oz in a naval cohabitation.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-seeks-na ... 177ja.html

US seeks naval roles for Australia, India
HAMISH McDONALD ASIA-PACIFIC EDITOR
October 30, 2010

Clinton said that, with India's growing engagement and integration into east Asia, ''we believe that India is a key player in this region and on the global stage''. Obama's trip, she said, ''will bring together two of our top priorities - renewed American leadership in Asia and a US-India partnership that is elevated to an entirely new level''.

Clinton said Washington was not seeking to ''contain'' China and had consistently encouraged China's emergence since the 1970s.

But at the same time she talked of a ''forward-deployed diplomacy'' and the reinvigoration of relationships with allies and friends around the region, from big nations like India and Japan to small powers like New Zealand and Singapore.

''We continue to modernise our defence ties with Australia to respond to a more complex maritime environment,'' she said. ''And we are expanding our work with the Indian Navy in the Pacific because we understand how important the Indo-Pacific basin is to global trade and commerce.''

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Nov 2010 18:00

viraat is a very elderly ship and best used as a base for ASW helis and KA31 AEW at this point. it was never a fast moving strike carrier in the best of times.

but our ASW heli program itself isnt going well in purchase process. been hearing of SH60G and MH90 since the kargil era!

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 04 Nov 2010 16:44

As per current ACM the P8 Final Design Review FDR is complete and complete choices for radar, sensors, ityadi has been finalised onlee...jai ho

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Nov 2010 16:50

given the likely delays in the arrival of various ships, AND if the price is right, the GR9 can fulfil a useful strike role - at least in the Bay of Bengal theatre for some time to come. if it can be ship based, that is a bonus

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Nov 2010 21:20

the GR7 or GR9 does not seem to carry harpoon or exocet missiles. perhaps they are not suited to RAF use or too heavy and drain the fuel. for any IN strike role , ASMs are a must though.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2010 22:39

Philip, In the late fifties and early sixties IN was confined to the Commonwealth navies grouping with UK in lead role and FSU as the enemy. Once 1965 war happened and UK withdrew East off Aden, the USN Seventh & Fifth Fleet build up ocurred. So now USN is roping in IN with RAN as a Commonwealth navies lite against PLAN.

Interesting thing is Sandy GOrdon the Ausie scholar had nigthmares about IN dominance in the Indina Ocean and would be turning over new leaf if thsi cooperation with RAn comes togethre. And also recall RAN sonobouys to monitor INS Mysore signature in open waters!

Khya se Khya hogaya!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Nov 2010 22:43

Boeing P-8I In NauSena Livery

The first image, recently released with "nausena" painted on, is a closer depiction of what the IN P-8I will really look like.

The Indian government will shortly exercise options for four more P-8Is from Boeing, taking its total order to 12 airplanes.

The P-8I for India is also shortly to undergo its critical design review (CDR), which according to one Boeing definition describes it as "a symbolic portal separating concept and design from integration, fabrication and testing".

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 04 Nov 2010 22:47

Juggi G wrote:Boeing P-8I In NauSena Livery
The first image, recently released with "nausena" painted on, is a closer depiction of what the IN P-8I will really look like.

The Indian government will shortly exercise options for four more P-8Is from Boeing, taking its total order to 12 airplanes.

The P-8I for India is also shortly to undergo its critical design review (CDR), which according to one Boeing definition describes it as "a symbolic portal separating concept and design from integration, fabrication and testing".

[/quote]

That's a really stupid background for a MPA. What is the IN aircraft doing in front of the Kang-chen-jung-ga. Fishing for subs in Tsomgo lake???

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Nov 2010 22:51

Well, if P-3Cs can be used to hunt Taliban subs, this can also make sense for Amrika...

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Nov 2010 22:57

Singha wrote:the GR7 or GR9 does not seem to carry harpoon or exocet missiles.

No radar, so no targeting information, so no Anti Surface or Anti Air capabilities. RAF birds were good for operating from forward bases dropping LGB on targets. Completely useless for IN whose basic requirements are Anti Air & Anti Surface.

Sombhat, good catch, its indeed the Kanchenjunga, and I think the background picture is the view as seen from Tiger Hill/Ghoom

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Nov 2010 23:24

well if IN have no PGM mission in mind, then there is no need

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Nov 2010 23:41

Lalmohan, if you remember, the only air to ground weapons before LUSH were 68mm rockets, BL755 CBU, 30 mm cannon and 454 kg unguided bombs. I dont remember offhand whether LUSH has added Litening + LGB capability, but Sea Harriers primarily protect the fleet from enemy aircraft (Orion, Atlantic, F-16, Mirage5) while the land attack was done by Delhi/Brahmaputra/Kora/Prabal (16 Uran missiles each). The # of missiles on these ships is disproportionately high (group of 4 Koras deploy 64 missiles), and the intent was definitely to use them for saturation attacks on Karachi. These missiles offered more payload + standoff range vis-a-vis air dropped munitions.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Nov 2010 01:57

JTull wrote:
Viv S wrote:
The SHAR was a Sea Harrier. The GR7 and GR9 are Harrier IIs. No radar or MRAAMs, but we can fit them out with a LUSH type suite - Elta EL/M-2032 + Derby/Python-5.
No we can't. Doesn't even have space for radar unless you make significant changes to forward fuselage. Not to mention wiring, cooling, power, and other issues.

The USMC upgraded quite a few of their Harrier IIs with the (ex-Hornet) AN/APG-65 and capability to carry six AMRAAMs.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Nov 2010 02:09

Singha wrote:the GR7 or GR9 does not seem to carry harpoon or exocet missiles. perhaps they are not suited to RAF use or too heavy and drain the fuel. for any IN strike role , ASMs are a must though.

I believe they can be integrated. The USMC variant carry upto 2 Harpoons within the same airframe as the RAF's.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 06 Nov 2010 02:17

Winchester Whisperer Letter of the Day

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Nov 2010 13:52

Well the IAF chief might not want ex-British Harriers,as more capable aircraft longer-legged are required,but they are of considerable value to the IN which operates a STOVL carrier,sailing with depleted numbers of Harriers ,which will still serve us until around 2020.

Ramanna,"touche" indeed! Remember how the INS Delhi was "buzzed" by an OZ P-3 Orion LRMP aircraft? With the great difficulties that OZ having manning its existing subs and in a soup as to how to build more capable subs for the future,a short-cut is being proposed by "matchmaker" the US,in manner similar to what the UK and France have agreed upon,joint military and naval cooperation thanks to their declining defence budgets.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Nov 2010 14:20

scouring the map today , I came to the shocking realization my idea of A&N island geography was wrong. car nicobar I had assumed was southernmost of the A&N chain, but infact it is in the middle and Great Nicobar is the most southern island having Indira point.

from a air ops pov, the distance between our major IAF base (Car nicobar) and indira point is around 320km...about 30-50% of combat radius of a modern fighter when carrying heavy munitions.

now I understand some islands are the tops of extinct volcanoes and hard to find level ground, while those built from dead coral reefs are all flat and easy to work with...but I think a good IAF base in great nicobar is warranted from pov of better reach and business resiliency!

island is far bigger than car nicobar at 1000sq km but apparently has a population of 9000 only.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2010 09:54

^^^

Philip,

On the previous version of the thread, even I had proposed some thing like this. But the idea was quickely shelved when the attitude of the OZ was brought into account.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Nov 2010 11:43

During the Arnab show on CISOMA in Times NOW 2 days back, one of the panelists, a retd admiral of the IN mentioned a system name ( cant remember it and was definitely not the SOSUS) and mentioned that using this, the Americans are updating the Pakis with daily updates on the ORBAT of IN and currnt deployments of all major IN vessels and this was a more serious issue than the CISOMA etc. Anyone have a clue as to what the admiral was talking about and did anyone else see the show?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Nov 2010 12:46

Pratyush,during the Cold War,the RAF deployed Harriers in W.Germany in small clearings close to the E.German borders heavily camouflaged.Even when given hints as to the the locations,recce aircraft could not spot them.This system of dployment would be excellent in the A&N islands,where similar "clearings" could be made operational just as emergency airstrips are also put into use in times of crisis.With the reluctance of the IAF to acquire Harriers,another type to operate,these "mini-bases" could come under the command of the IN instead,which operates Harriers.

I give you an excellent example of how useful this tactic works with that of the LTTE's light aircraft concealed very well in the northern jungles of Lanka,which the SLAF could not locate,and using camouflaged containers for logistic support and small jungle tracks to launch the aircraft.It was only when the SLA overran the LTTE controlled territory did these locations and tactics became exposed.Harriers could use STOVL methods just as they are being used on the Viraat.

Add to the use of STOVL Harriers on the A&N islands the additional operation of amphibians,one would have an excellent method of sanitising the islands during any conflict,preventing them from being used by enemy inflitrators and for launching surpise strikes against enemy ships and subs transiting the Malacca Straits.With a closer cooperation with Indonesia,which seems to be in the works,we could have our own version of a "string of steel" in the eastern part of the IOR.