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ramana wrote:Politics party reaction to the visit. He thinks there was mid-course correction during the visit. Note he is very pro spin meisters(ruling party, govt babucrats and police big wigs) so take it as another input.
I have noticed this.
The correction was to beam the visit to US public since the right wing bloggers went nuts.
They had to pacify the US audience and show the juicy story of the press secretary and his antics.
They are watching the Indian public reaction to the US president symbolic and image perception.
They are working hard on the image perception since this has been damaged from the previous experiment they were doing until 911.
Ramanaji elaborate varieties of delicacies from various parts of the country were served in president Patil's state dinner, much better choice of dishes than PM Mannohan Singh's White house state dinner. Obama's favourite Samosa along with hundreds of different types of breads and the main menu was as follows-
The Menu
After the toasts, dinner was served by waiters wearing bright red uniforms decorated with gold braid. President Patil had overseen the menu selections personally, according to the Hindu Times, and it was produced by the palace chefs. No alcohol was served, in keeping with protocol.
President Patil's State Dinner in Honor of President Obama
For the palate
Puran Poli
Soup
Vegetarian clear soup
Platter Selections
Achari Fish Tikkas
Chicken Shammi Kebabs
Palak Papri Chaat
Pista Murgh
Lamb and Vegetables
Chena Payash
ha..ha.. first lady Michele Obama in hot soup in Indonesia for hand shaking with a hard line fanatic Mullaha (Minister of Information).Tauba Tauba the lady touched him which he desperately tried to avoid.
[/quote]Indonesia's pious information minister, Tifatul Sembiring, is in hot water for touching the hand of First Lady Michelle Obama, in what he describes as forced contact. The politician flaunts his conservatism as a Muslim and claims to avoid touching women who aren't family members, the Associated Press reports.
Indonesia -- which has the world's largest Islamic population, the vast majority moderate -- had been debating how to handle encounters between the first lady and observant Muslim officials far in advance of the Obamas' arrival in the country Monday.
[Video: Obamas bring their dance moves to India]
Sembiring sought to deflect criticism by claiming Tuesday's skin-to-skin contact was all Michelle Obama's fault. "I tried to prevent [being touched] with my hands but Mrs. Michelle held her hands too far toward me [so] we touched," Tifatul Sembiring explained on his Twitter page (according to a translation provided in the AP report).
Some local observers laughed at that idea, and one female reporter gleefully said he wouldn't be able to avoid shaking her hand anymore, AP reported.
Video of the moment does seem to contradict Sembiring's characterization of the encounter -- but you be the judge. The video is below:
[/quote][/quote]
India's strategic trajectory has certainly been enhanced by the US endorsement for UNSC permanent seat....A key reason for India's candidacy is the claim to being the world's largest democracy, which Obama and the US have stressed at every possible juncture. This maybe OT on this thread...but I believe now is the right time for Indian Americans to start a movement aimed at putting pressure on the US for India to demonstrate transition from the 'familocracy' that it now runs under to a genuine democracy, as a precondition to India's entry into UNSC permanent seat. This will be a 5 - 10 year movement, but then the UNSC restructuring is a similar timeframe.
Arjun wrote:I believe now is the right time for Indian Americans to start a movement aimed at putting pressure on the US for India to demonstrate transition from the 'familocracy' that it now runs under to a genuine democracy, as a precondition to India's entry into UNSC permanent seat. This will be a 5 - 10 year movement, but then the UNSC restructuring is a similar timeframe.
Arjun, however much I detest this dynastic politics that has taken deep roots at both the central and state levels, I do not want the US to meddle with our country.
SSridhar wrote:however much I detest this dynastic politics that has taken deep roots at both the central and state levels, I do not want the US to meddle with our country.
Needless to say such an idea will fail. It's one thing to keep believing that India is taking orders from abroad and that this should stop forthwith. It's another thing altogether to believe that India should be given different orders from abroad with a perceived sweetener to take those orders. And that Indians will take those orders because they are so accustomed to taking orders from abroad.
Inconsistent, ignorant and illogical views. Hilarious actually.
SSridhar wrote:Arjun, however much I detest this dynastic politics that has taken deep roots at both the central and state levels, I do not want the US to meddle with our country.
Sridhar- this whole 'familocracy' system, if it can be called that, is something that is instinctively repulsive to me & I guess to many right-thinking individuals. It would be right at the top as being easily the most puke-worthy feature of Indian democracy.
Indian democracy needs desparately to be rid of dynastic politics. If you take that as the starting point - the next question to ask is how best this can be acheived. Unfortunately it is clear that Indian media and society is too deeply afflicted with some kind of Stockholm syndrome where Indian media / society is not mature enough for this kind of debate. If you feel differently, I will be very happy to hear about your views. Do we even see any article in print or program on TV that seriously debates this point ? - on the contrary we see enough and more articles that talk of Yuvraajes from X, Y and Z dynasties taking over as if it were the most natural thing in the world. I want to make clear I am not being partisan - I am 100% sure if Nehru who I regard as a highly intelligent leader -had any inkling of what was to happen he would have taken steps to constitutionally disbar this from happening.
India needs a change in mindset and culture that perforce, needs to come from outside. What I am suggesting is that this will be driven by Indian Americans, who will form a forum to put pressure on POTUS, given that POTUS today has the necessary leverage on India due to its UNSC commitment. I feel very strongly that this is the only way for a very neccessary change that needs to happen.
shiv wrote:Needless to say such an idea will fail. It's one thing to keep believing that India is taking orders from abroad and that this should stop forthwith. It's another thing altogether to believe that India should be given different orders from abroad with a perceived sweetener to take those orders. And that Indians will take those orders because they are so accustomed to taking orders from abroad.
Inconsistent, ignorant and illogical views. Hilarious actually.
My whole argument hinges on 2 points actually - (1) how badly do you believe this change is necessary for India and (2) what are the other options to bring about this change.
This topic is of interest to me, but maybe OT for this thread. I am happy to continue elsewhere where it might be relevant.
Firstly the 'family' that you refer to is just one of but certainly the most important of the symptoms of this malady.
If POTUS is evaluating purely from US strategic intererests, is it that the alternatives to the family you refer to are not in synch with US-India partnership objectives? Secondly, want to make clear I am not saying support BJP or anything of that sort. The US should have no role to play in determining who Indian citizens want to elect, as long as there is general awareness in Indian society or enforced through constitutional mechanisms of the dangers of dynastic politics. I am happy if India's citizens decide on Congress, as long as it is not following dynastic politics.
SSridhar wrote:Arjun, however much I detest this dynastic politics that has taken deep roots at both the central and state levels, I do not want the US to meddle with our country.
Sridhar- this whole 'familocracy' system, if it can be called that, is something that is instinctively repulsive to me & I guess to many right-thinking individuals. It would be right at the top as being easily the most puke-worthy feature of Indian democracy.
Indian democracy needs desparately to be rid of dynastic politics. If you take that as the starting point - the next question to ask is how best this can be acheived. Unfortunately it is clear that Indian media and society is too deeply afflicted with some kind of Stockholm syndrome where Indian media / society is not mature enough for this kind of debate. If you feel differently, I will be very happy to hear about your views. Do we even see any article in print or program on TV that seriously debates this point ? - on the contrary we see enough and more articles that talk of Yuvraajes from X, Y and Z dynasties taking over as if it were the most natural thing in the world. I want to make clear I am not being partisan - I am 100% sure if Nehru who I regard as a highly intelligent leader -had any inkling of what was to happen he would have taken steps to constitutionally disbar this from happening.
India needs a change in mindset and culture that perforce, needs to come from outside. What I am suggesting is that this will be driven by Indian Americans, who will form a forum to put pressure on POTUS, given that POTUS today has the necessary leverage on India due to its UNSC commitment. I feel very strongly that this is the only way for a very neccessary change that needs to happen.
How exactly do we prevent dynastic rule in a democracy? Can we bar children of elected officials from contesting elections?
Nice question KLN. The same way the US is also a familocracy. Why, more then once the POTUS was the child of a former POTUS. Most recent example was the era of Bush Sr/Jr.
Tx Ramanna and Amit,body langauage tells one a lot.You are right.I think that MMS was a bit uncomfortable and his body language said a lot.This may be due to Obama's hectoring style,where he tends to "lecture" people,talking "at" them and not not talking "to" them.
Secondly and most importantly,people seem to have forgotten that MMS has had a great opportunity to study two consecutive US president's mano-a-mano and he would've made his own judgement as to which of the two he personally preferred and which of the two was better for India.He has had the unique opportunity of sizing them both up and also of being FM earlier with further insight into the ways of the US establishment over the last few decades.
Nevertheless,despite the wise counsel to "trust but verify",and the future US relationship with Pak should be very carefyully watched.Prem Shankar Jha,writing in a mag said that the US is actually going to deliver to Pak the equivalent of $10billion worth of arms over he next 5 years! This is a massive amount,that too at friendship prices.The quantum of military aid,with huge force multiplying weapon systems like TOW and AMRAAM missiles and P-3 LRMP aircraft are not meant to fight the Taliban ,but clearly aimed at India.Therefore,we have to as the Pioneer well put it,judge the US the same way in which we judge the Chinese.Listen to their talk of friendship but judge them on ground realities.
The two simultaneous visits of Obama to India and Cameron to China tells you more than any joint declaration.The wheel is turning full circle.The west today needs India and China as much as we need them,and their need is growing more. Pres.Sarko and Pres.Medvedev are also coming to India to reinforce India's importance in a changing world.
PS: A comment about the presence of "lobbyists" everywhere in Delhi during the Mess-iah's visit and the absence of lobbyists for "India" is a remarkable truth.We were told that Obama would be accompanied by hundreds of top US heads,flying into India in their private jets,etc.,etc.It is tyhese specimens who want to control the decisionmaking of India,so that they companies can walk away with massive global contracts.One disgusting MNC is Monsanto,the peddlars of GM crops,fatal for Indian agriculture.They use "contract killer" Blackwater,mired in massive warcrime scandals in Iraq,etc., to allegedly surreptitiously engage themselves in industrial espionage, influencing local scientists,politicos,decisionmakers,etc.Therefore,the lobbyist industry in India is a "sunshine" industry as the economy grows.The nation should fight for transparency in decisionmaking through the RTI and other consumer forums,which have enormous room for growth commensurate with the rise of lobbyist power.UNless we have several Ralph Naders active in the country,singletons like Jairam Ramesh will be few and far between safeguarding certain aspects of the nation's interests.
Pratyush wrote:Nice question KLN. The same way the US is also a familocracy. Why, more then once the POTUS was the child of a former POTUS. Most recent example was the era of Bush Sr/Jr.
Any this discussion is OT for the topic.
There is no equal-equal here...Appropriate way is to look at it in terms of % of years since first start of constitution where family ruled, or in terms of % of POTUSes that represented dynastic politics.
This maybe radical - but maybe the answer is to look at this percentage and bar families based on this %. If US can bar tenure after 2 terms - you can also come up with similar quantitative exercises.
Maybe it does not have to be constitional - and this can be done through awareness / PR campaigns. Open to suggestions - but bottomline is this problem needs to be addressed, especially if India is to get to the high table as a model democracy, which it is not currently.
Last edited by Arjun on 10 Nov 2010 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
So Philip, Face is the Index of mind is indeed true?
Well then I need to be careful, when I watch Lady gaga videos or telugu movies dances (with lasses) as my better half is always keeping an eye on me...
Also is this any way related to Obama face
"Is this the face that launched thousand (hard)ships".
In any case facials are important I guess even for men!
Please clarify and not take it at face value.
TIA
Shiva,what about "plastic surgery"?! I still have to figure that one out.However,body language tells you a lot about the "mood of the moment" and intentions,if read correctly.There is a devious art of deception that can also be practised,poker players specialise in this.
isnt it a simple case of indians are not accustomed to formal public touching and kissing whilst westerners are, and MMS and others merely feel knee jerk socially uncomfortable rather than any specific power dynamics?
Lalmohan wrote:isnt it a simple case of indians are not accustomed to formal public touching and kissing whilst westerners are, and MMS and others merely feel knee jerk socially uncomfortable rather than any specific power dynamics?
Lal Mullah,
I think, as usual, you are spot on. The Indonesian "incident" with Mrs President "touching" a hardliner is a case in point.
Different cultural mores. To read more in it than that is...
Philip
Botox I can spot on.
Look at Barbara Walters
Look at Julie Andrews
Look at Raquel Welch
Look at Jemie Lee curtis
Look at Bo Derek
Look at Dolly Parton face and other assets they are firmer than Dollar value (saging, the former still singing).
Difficult to do face reading, Body language is altogether different ...
Lalmohan wrote:isnt it a simple case of indians are not accustomed to formal public touching and kissing whilst westerners are, and MMS and others merely feel knee jerk socially uncomfortable rather than any specific power dynamics?
Congress culture is that when someone is patting you on the back, they are looking for the best place to plant the knife.
Any wonder that MMS looks uncomfortable??
Also look at how his party approved his strong statements on the pakis. Much removed I guess, from what he would personally liked to have said, involving a lot of pappi jhappi. MMS is not a typical congeress wala and he thought that he would walk down a new historical path al la sharm el sheik etc.
His leash has very considerably been tightened for quite sometime now. No more lone ranger stuff for him. Straight and narrow line onlee.
Arjun wrote:
There is no equal-equal here...Appropriate way is to look at it in terms of % of years since first start of constitution where family ruled, or in terms of % of POTUSes that represented dynastic politics.
Arjun, the US has not been fully independent for the past 150 years. Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln were resisters, and there were assassination attempts on both of them (successful in the case of Lincoln).
Pranav wrote:Arjun, the US has not been fully independent for the past 150 years. Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln were resisters, and there were assassination attempts on both of them (successful in the case of Lincoln).
Well, the POTUSes have largely been unrelated to one another - which is far more than one can say for India. So first step is to put an end to Indian familocracy. Now what you are saying is that there is an organization that has controlled the POTUSes, well - even if that is somehow proven to be true, that is a second level issue to be addressed later at some point to ensure it does not inflitrate India. We are yet to address the basics wrt India.
Pratyush wrote:Nice question KLN. The same way the US is also a familocracy. Why, more then once the POTUS was the child of a former POTUS. Most recent example was the era of Bush Sr/Jr.
Any this discussion is OT for the topic.
It is a familocracy. The matrilineal family tree connects 43 Presidents to one known ancestor. The odd one out is a cousin of two Presidents.
You can check out the poster at Borders book store.
India to gain from US investment in South Asian energy fund
BS Reporter / Mumbai November 10, 2010, 0:59 IST
The US Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) will provide $100 million in financing for the $300-million South Asia Energy Fund, part of the Global Environment Fund (GEF). The South Asia Energy Fund will invest in solar, wind, hydropower, advanced biofuels and natural gas projects, with focus on India.
In addition, GEF will form an India-specific sub-fund in association with the Infrastructure Development Finance Company and other potential Indian investors targeting India-only investment. This will be in addition to OPIC’s pipeline of more than $280 million clean energy and energy efficiency projects in India, said a statement from the White House.
US President Barack Obama’s visit has given a fillip to India’s plans of increasing its clean energy resources, mainly availability of increased funding for clean energy projects and products.
Prime among the areas of cooperation will be to launch a US-India Energy Cooperation Program, an innovative public-private partnership that will leverage business resources in both the US and India for commercial projects and pilot development initiatives in clean energy and efficiency.
The US President’s visit will also accelerate establishing a Joint Clean Energy Research and Development Center, that will mobilise up to $100 million in public and private sector funding over five years for R&D on potential breakthrough technologies. The centre is conceived as part of the US-India Partnership to Advance Clean Energy initiated two years ago to promote co-operation in clean energy solutions.
Besides, the Export-Import Bank will provide substantial financial support for the purchase of US goods and services to be used in the development of significant renewable energy and natural gas projects in India. On the first day of Obama’s visit to Mumbai, the Export-Import Bank and Anil Ambani’s Reliance Power had signed a memorandum of understanding on providing $5 billion in financial support to Reliance Power for the purchase of US goods and services, solar and wind) energy facilities.
Arjun wrote:
India needs a change in mindset and culture that perforce, needs to come from outside. What I am suggesting is that this will be driven by Indian Americans, who will form a forum to put pressure on POTUS, given that POTUS today has the necessary leverage on India due to its UNSC commitment. I feel very strongly that this is the only way for a very neccessary change that needs to happen.
Arjun ji: You will have to pardon my expressions above, but could not help it. I appreciate your sentiments but first you will have to track how this issue of political dynasties has come about, Who exactly is pursuing it? what are its levels and depths? Why? From When? What is the Indian context here? What and Why some changes are needed?
Once you have enough knowledge on these issues, only then you can pontificate on how to change it.
I will give you a clue. Dwell on the history of the INC and ask the above questions, I have asked. What do you learn from it?
SSridhar wrote:All channels are discussing the omission of Pakistan in Obama's speech at the Taj Mahal Hotel. I differ. While I agree that the speech could have been more strongly worded, there should have been no reference to Pakistan at all. Any reference to that country, or even discussions about omission of reference to TSP, would put us both in the same pedestal, an equation that we have been laboriously trying to delink for such a long time. While TSP must figure prominently in talks privately, there should be absolutely no mention of TSP in public speeches. That is degrading to us, to say the least.
Coomi Kapoor
Tags : opinion, columns
Posted: Sun Oct 24 2010, 04:38 hrs
To mollify Pakistan, which protested that it was left out of American President Barack Obama’s sub-continental tour, the US advance party suggested that Obama could fly over the flood-affected region of Pakistan after his aircraft took off from Kabul. But Pakistani President Asif Zardari, who was to accompany the US President, insisted he could only board the US aircraft on his own territory and the presidential plane should first touch down at Rawalpindi to pick him up. As a result, the Pakistan visit was cancelled outright since the US authorities felt that landing in Rawalpindi required a lot of advance security planning.
Programme glitches
There is still confusion over Obama’s itinerary in India. Bangalore and Hyderabad were knocked off because they are perceived as outsourcing hubs. The Wagah border was nixed because the Indian government did not think it appropriate for the President to make a speech on sub-continental peace as the US envisaged. A visit to Amritsar was dropped because of apprehensions over the reaction back home to photographs of their president with his head covered and surrounded by devotees in turbans. A proposal that he visit Chabad House in Mumbai was rejected because of security concerns. Even Obama’s address to the US India Business Chamber in Mumbai has its share of irritants, with the head of the US Chambers of Commerce, who has an old feud with Vice President Joe Biden, seeking to vet the Indian invitees.
Last edited by chetak on 10 Nov 2010 21:48, edited 2 times in total.
Aren't some of us too keen to jump the gun and ascribe motives to everything.
So we wasted 2 pages discussing that POTUS is not visiting Swaran Mandir in Amritsar so as not to give out any impression to Tea Partiers of looking like a Moslem and blah blah! Now the same POTUS goes ahead and visits a mosque in Indonesia.
What do they have to say now?
ShauryaT wrote:I appreciate your sentiments but first you will have to track how this issue of political dynasties has come about, Who exactly is pursuing it? what are its levels and depths? Why? From When? What is the Indian context here? What and Why some changes are needed?
Once you have enough knowledge on these issues, only then you can pontificate on how to change it.
I will give you a clue. Dwell on the history of the INC and ask the above questions, I have asked. What do you learn from it?
Are you sure this is the complete list of questions or do you believe there are also areas in astronomy and physics I should be addressing?
But seriously, after answering all these questions, do you get to an option that you believe has higher degree of success than what I outlined? If so would be happy to hear your solution and the reasoning - I am not in this for the love of debating. If you have a better solution, will be the first one to jump aboard. We can always think through which one has a higher chance of success.
Arjun wrote:
But seriously, after answering all these questions, do you get to an option that you believe has higher degree of success than what I outlined?
You can be serious, only if you have knowledge. For without it, a wise decision is unlikely. So, are you serious?
Arjun wrote:
But seriously, after answering all these questions, do you get to an option that you believe has higher degree of success than what I outlined?
You can be serious, only if you have knowledge. For without it, a wise decision is unlikely. So, are you serious?
Did you ever face those math / logic questions that threw a whole lot of data at you, and what turns out to be actually relevant to the answer is just one or two key pieces of information? If the knowledge gets me to a solution, I am certainly serious.
Anyway Shaurya, to some degree I understand your angst - I knew what I had put down could be viewed as being somewhat provocative. But please do go ahead and shoot it down with counter-proposals. My interest lies in getting to an answer.
^^ Discussion on POTUS's and their relatives can go to OT thread, please do not derail this one. And ShivaS, I think it is enough, please don't show us your "sense of humor" on this thread anymore. Thanks.
Containment-Lite. Tom Friedman's take on Obama's visit to India. He said pretty much the same thing with his interview with Charlie Rose.
His visit was intended to let China know that America knows that India knows that Beijing’s recent “aggressiveness,” as one Indian minister put it to me, has China’s neighbors a bit on edge. None of China’s neighbors dare mention the C-word — containment — in public. Indeed, none of them want to go there at all or intend to promote such a policy. But there’s a new whiff of anxiety in the Asian air.
All of China’s neighbors want China to know, as the sign says: “Don’t even think about parking here.” Don’t even think about using your growing economic and military clout to just impose your claims in border disputes and over oil-rich islands in the South China Sea. Because, if you do, all of China’s neighbors will be doomed to become America’s new best friends — including India.
That’s why each one of China’s neighbors is eager to have a picture of their president standing with Secretary Clinton or President Obama — with the unspoken caption that reads: “Honestly, China, we don’t want to throttle you. We don’t want an Asian cold war. We just want to trade and be on good terms. But, please, stay between the white lines. Don’t even think about parking in my space because, if you do, I have this friend from Washington, and he’s really big. ... And he’s got his own tow truck.”
I’d call this “pre-containment” or “containment-lite” — triggered in the last year by a sudden upsurge in China’s assertion of claims to all of the South China Sea. It marks a stark contrast to the mood in the region just two years ago. As Christian Caryl, a contributing editor at Foreign Policy magazine, noted in an Aug. 4 essay: China for years was being praised by Asian experts for being so shrewd, so clever, so deft, in building cultural and economic ties with all its neighbors — and outmaneuvering the stupid, oafish Americans. But in just six months, China has cast itself in the role of bully and prompted its neighbors to roll out the red carpets for Uncle Sam.
