Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7038
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby JE Menon » 14 Nov 2010 21:49

The official position of government, by parliament resolution, is that the entire state of J&K, including Pakisatan occupied Kashmir and Northern Areas is a part of India.

Rest is loose talk. We have a problem with the Pakisatan and we are "solving" it the best way we can, with the four-fold approach that the Arthashasthra has recommended. It might neither seem sensible nor coherent, until we are put in the whole picture. And we, I mean us BRFites, will never be - hell hardly all in GOI are I'm sure.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't some sort of grand wise men's council sitting around plotting the slow death of Pakistan, but rather a matter of working thru basic principles, and holding fast to them - NO MATTER WHAT. And the course of events so far, despite the hits we've had to take, suggest that this is the way it is going.

One only needs to take the situation of Pakistan say in the 50s-60s and their situation now. It's not that everything has worked out perfectly - I mean, who in their right minds, would acquiesce (even connive) in the Pakisatan's acquisition of nukes? Apart from the Chinese connivance and American acquiescence? On the other hand, could we have asked for a better destroyer of Pakistan than Zia the pious?

And now, who is complicit in the steady destruction of Pakisatan? Like I said, basic principles - and NO MATTER WHAT. This applies to us too.

It's not pretty if you look at short term windows, but it works over time. It is unlikely to give us any macho sense of satisfaction and closure. But the job will be done, an even then it might seem like a pyrrhic victory because what is left will remain poisonous, only less obviously so and less dangerously so.

For the time being, the Pakisatan will be around for a while, but we have put a nice albatross around its neck. So there's Islam, Islam everywhere but not a mosque to pray in.

On the other hand, if the situation comes to a very dicey pass, then a Gordian knot approach may be needed. And the Pakjabi military/bureaucratic/political mofo elite of Pakistan know exactly where the sword will fall.

jerry
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 20:40
Location: DXB

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby jerry » 14 Nov 2010 23:26

Well Said. I think this and few other keeper quotes made previously by other mods should be put in the beginning of every TSP thread... specially for some hyper BF :) rites

JE Menon wrote:The official position of government, by parliament resolution, is that the entire state of J&K, including Pakisatan occupied Kashmir and Northern Areas is a part of India.

Rest is loose talk. We have a problem with the Pakisatan and we are "solving" it the best way we can, with the four-fold approach that the Arthashasthra has recommended. It might neither seem sensible nor coherent, until we are put in the whole picture. And we, I mean us BRFites, will never be - hell hardly all in GOI are I'm sure.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't some sort of grand wise men's council sitting around plotting the slow death of Pakistan, but rather a matter of working thru basic principles, and holding fast to them - NO MATTER WHAT. And the course of events so far, despite the hits we've had to take, suggest that this is the way it is going.

One only needs to take the situation of Pakistan say in the 50s-60s and their situation now. It's not that everything has worked out perfectly - I mean, who in their right minds, would acquiesce (even connive) in the Pakisatan's acquisition of nukes? Apart from the Chinese connivance and American acquiescence? On the other hand, could we have asked for a better destroyer of Pakistan than Zia the pious?

And now, who is complicit in the steady destruction of Pakisatan? Like I said, basic principles - and NO MATTER WHAT. This applies to us too.

It's not pretty if you look at short term windows, but it works over time. It is unlikely to give us any macho sense of satisfaction and closure. But the job will be done, an even then it might seem like a pyrrhic victory because what is left will remain poisonous, only less obviously so and less dangerously so.

For the time being, the Pakisatan will be around for a while, but we have put a nice albatross around its neck. So there's Islam, Islam everywhere but not a mosque to pray in.

On the other hand, if the situation comes to a very dicey pass, then a Gordian knot approach may be needed. And the Pakjabi military/bureaucratic/political mofo elite of Pakistan know exactly where the sword will fall.

Vivek_A
BRFite
Posts: 593
Joined: 17 Nov 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Vivek_A » 14 Nov 2010 23:41

chetak wrote:Why do successive Indian prime ministers make such stupid statements and that too in pakiland??



If you believe what a lot of people on BR believe, it's because the US makes them make these statements.

Nihat
BRFite
Posts: 1209
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 13:35

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Nihat » 15 Nov 2010 00:03

If anything we should be more and more assertive about our claim on PoK. Right now it seems as we are giddy in asserting our right on what is rightfully ours. TSP uses this well to project Indian Kashmir as disputed territory while PoK remains untalked about. If we want TSP to keep its gob shut , then they should be made to realize that India is dead serious about PoK.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22288
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby chetak » 15 Nov 2010 00:36

Vivek_A wrote:
chetak wrote:Why do successive Indian prime ministers make such stupid statements and that too in pakiland??



If you believe what a lot of people on BR believe, it's because the US makes them make these statements.


Vivek_A ji,

Do they have to put it in writing??

Puts a bit of lead in the pencil of the unwashed abdul, especially when reported in the paki urdu press. :evil:

The US is certainly not responsible for the senile dithering of our elderly nobel prize seeking politicians.

They want to come across as wise and reasonable to their paki audience without understanding the nature of the beast.

The cost to India be damned. Is there nothing else to talk about?

shynee
BRFite
Posts: 550
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 11:31
Location: US

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby shynee » 15 Nov 2010 00:52

US mid-term elections multiply Pakistan’s worries
Policymakers here had worked on the assumption that the narrow window of opportunity between now and the start of withdrawal would force Washington to talk to the Taliban and for this they would increasingly rely on Islamabad.

However, if the July 2011 date is ignored under the Republican pressure and the coalition forces stay on in Afghanistan for another four years, the Americans may not be that interested in talks. This can reduce Pakistan’s significance as a facilitator.

“Opportunity for Pakistan as a deliverer stands reduced,” remarked a western diplomat based in Islamabad. This is not all that the delay of the withdrawal may bring for Pakistan, it may also result in more terrorist activities in the country, leading to political and economic instability.

In the regional context, a prolonged US military presence means a more hawkish India which, at present, because of an expected US withdrawal and the possibility of a Taliban-inclusive set-up in Kabul, has been trying to engage Pakistan in talks, albeit reluctantly.

Similarly, President Hamid Karzai’s friendly overtures towards Islamabad may be replaced by anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

At the same time, the Republicans with their heightened security concerns may also pressure the Obama administration to scale up drone attacks and other counter-terrorism measures, leading to increased friction in the already complex Pakistan-US partnership.

Republicans’ security concerns can also lead to increased pressure on Pakistan’s civilian and military leaders “to do more”.

“As security is paramount for the Republicans, the expectations and the nature of discussions would be different,” a Pakistani diplomat cautioned. But the biggest headache the Republicans can give Islamabad is through their control over American aid.

The Kerry-Lugar-Berman Act may be a done deal. But the pledge for $7.5 billion in non-military aid over five years for Pakistan will have to be approved by the Congress’ Appropriation Committees every year, which has the power to decide how much will be given.

On this issue the Republicans are likely to be driven by security matters as well as America’s economic condition. During the campaign, they had vowed to examine all foreign assistance programmes and sanction only essential money.

These Republican concerns could lead to cuts in the promised annual $1.5 billion KLB assistance, because there are doubts among the party members about Islamabad’s counter-terrorism efforts and its continued alleged support for the Taliban and the Haqqani network that are targeting US troops and installations in Afghanistan.

Already there are renewed calls in the US for making aid to Pakistan conditional. Besides, the Republicans are averse to giving aid to countries faltering on internal reform pledges.

Kay Granger, who is likely to head the House Appropriations Subcommittee controlling foreign aid, is not very supportive of foreign aid programmes either.

It is expected that she may go for cuts in programmes which do not have strong domestic support in the US. She has been quoted in the American media as having said: “We can’t just give out money and say we will put up with whatever you are doing.”

The Republicans will also take over other house committees which, experts point out, will bring some subtle changes in US policy.

For instance, the Reconstruction Opportunity Zones may see some progress as Congressman Dave Camp – who might be taking over the Ways and Means committee, which looks after international trade policy – is a supporter of free trade unlike his protectionist predecessor.

The change of leadership of the House Foreign Affairs Committee brings less good news. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, tipped to be the next chair of the committee, is a member of the India Caucus, which influences opinion in the House in favour of India. She had voted against KLB.

She is known for her closer scrutiny of foreign aid and for introducing cuts. Hence, if she gains control of the committee she can pose serious challenges to President Obama’s foreign policy agenda.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Victor » 15 Nov 2010 02:00

JE Menon wrote: It is unlikely to give us any macho sense of satisfaction and closure. But the job will be done..........a Gordian knot approach may be needed...

Nice post, JEM! Long suffering jingos must admit that by adopting and doggedly maintaining the strictly legal position in the face of extreme duress and provocation, GoI has achieved the near-impossible. Worthy of a nation that invented chess.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13109
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby negi » 15 Nov 2010 03:26

Optimism is a funny thing it can be brought up anywhere anytime and used to paint a rosy picture. TSP's failures as a state and nation are its own undoing however that has not in any way reduced the threat former poses to India's security and that is where India as a state has not done much , as for India's official position on PoK well its a hogwash, it is hilarious at this point in time to even think that India can do something about the PoK when it has not even formally integrated J&K.

Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9242
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Hari Seldon » 15 Nov 2010 03:43

^^^The heart yearns to go with sri JEM's gems above but the head shudders in agreement with sri negi's dry, flat factual indictment. Only.:(

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1506
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 15 Nov 2010 04:31

JE Menon wrote:Like I said, basic principles - and NO MATTER WHAT. This applies to us too.


JEM sir, say this with utmost respect - yours is an optimistic view.
Actions seem to indicate otherwise.
India (GOI) teeters from one political dispensation to the next,
with nary a vision in sight of what it wants for itself or for the region.

Does India want a democratic stable Pakistan? Does it want it in four/five parts?
Does anyone know what the said "basic principle" held on to NO MATTER WHAT is? :-?

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7038
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby JE Menon » 15 Nov 2010 05:10

Guys, where is the optimism in my post? I fail to see it. It is in fact a rather sad look at the reality. Like I said, either it will be a long haul and we will continue to take hits or it will be a Gordian knot approach which may be needed. This is obvious - I mean, what are the other possibilities?

The basic principles are enshrined in the four-fold approach of the Arthashasthra. We will not go the Pakisatan way. We will not turn to a faith-based state, we will not abandon our pluralistic principles, etc... We will approach things with due process. And we will not in any way compromise our moral high ground.

Indeed, anything can be given an optimistic spin. Someone should make that attempt with the state of affairs in Pakisatan today.

Meanwhile, can anyone deny the facts? Where is India now and where is Pakistan? Is it all accidental, incidental and simply the result of muddling on? How is it, then, that regardless of the strength or weakness of the government in power in New Delhi, no government has indicated publicly and formally any willingness to surrender an inch of J&K. It is your choice whether you want to take media proposals, or Musharraf's statements, or something else as more reliable than GOI statements. Where are the GOI statements to that effect? Why is it that people think GOI will surrender now what it did not when it was much weaker? There is no satisfactory answer to that - except at the ridiculous grasping at the "Nobel" straw (and this allegation was made with regard to Vajpayee as well btw). This I fear is more a reflection of BRFites proclivities than that of GoI - and better tackled by a piskologist.

Or is someone saying Kao wasn't right in his assessment that we must allow Pakistan to stew in its own juices?

Does this mean we will not take hits like 26/11? Of course not. There is no certain insulation against this sort of terror, apart from simply moving on - and not, as I said before, compromising on the basics. And retribution when and where possible without, again, compromising on the basics - or compromising to the minimum possible. Do you really believe that there is no retribution at all? Or is it that we want the satisfaction of seeing and knowing that a certain amount of blood was spilt by Indian hands as vengeance. This is unlikely to be forthcoming. There is no value in it, nor strategic margin - and I'm not sure GoI of any stripe (for the foreseeable future) will take a contrary view on that.

This is not a method that is clear-cut and satisfying. It does not bring an American movie style (or even Indian-movie style) ending. In fact it does not bring an "ending" at all - merely a different state of affairs that might prove to be less difficult for us to handle. And, almost certainly, global realities will also work in our favour. Which is why New Delhi has worked hard to make Pakistan the world's problem, and not just ours. (We have Advani to thank for that, to a signficant degree... ) Indeed, we may be wielding the "shadow sword" more effectively than the Chinese ever did. Look at the enthusiasm with which we record every American drone strike on Pakistani territory.

Is it true that the land that consitutes what we know as India has increased since 1947 or not? The answer is clear. We have certain clear advantages in our immediate neighbourhood that is perhaps best left unsaid. One only has to look at our neighbour China's immediate neighbourhood to recognise what I mean.

While there is no great cause for jubilation, there is plenty of room for justifiable cautious optimism. It is another matter that we like to focus on the negatives. There is even some benefit in that. So long as we don't get distracted from the correct direction because of it, or lose sight of the positive altogether.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7038
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby JE Menon » 15 Nov 2010 05:26

Pakisatan does not pose any real threat to India's security. Even if it goes nuclear, India will survive. All it can do is kill Indians and get some attention from the media. It is a noisy nuisance, which we would be happy to see the end of, but we must not focus on it to the extent that we miss the wood for the trees. The substantial external threats to the stability of India come (or perhaps I should say will come) from the US, China, Russia, a possible alliance of Islamic nations - not necessarily in that order. Pakistan is a pawn, nothing more - and its elites are unable to go beyond playing that role of a slightly irrational gun for hire, the type that gets killed well before the end of the movie.

Then of course we have some internal issues we need to keep a close eye on. That's a different story.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2010 05:40

chetak wrote:
Changing the status quo
Kuldip Nayar
November 12, 2010 (2 days ago)
By Kuldip Nayar

ON his visit to Pakistan in 1999, the then Indian prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee wrote in the visitors` book at Minar-i-Pakistan in Lahore that India`s prosperity and integrity depended on that of Pakistan.



Why do successive Indian prime ministers make such stupid statements and that too in pakiland??


Why do we believe that our PMs are being perfectly sincere every time they say something? It is alright to say something to Pakistan and do something else. After all many folks on this forum have absolutely no problem in believing that a PM who says Kashmir is part of India is a millimeter away from handing Kashmir to the Pakis. Why should it be difficult to believe just the opposite? Promise to hand over Kashmir and say bugger off when Pakis ask. It is our own mental state and biases that make us accept one possibility more easily than another.

As a people we have no issues whatsoever in getting our langotis in a twist because China says one thing on one day and starts issuing stapled visas on the next. But we cannot believe that Indians would be so dishonest and adharmic as to speak with a forked tongue.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23846
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2010 06:47

J&K issue out of UN list of disputes
Jammu and Kashmir has been removed from the United Nations list of unresolved disputes, in a setback to Pakistan which has been asking the world body to intervene on the issue.

The omission of Jammu and Kashmir from the list of disputes under the observation of the Security Council was noticed by Pakistan, whose envoy has filed a protest.

“The Jammu and Kashmir dispute was not mentioned in the context of unresolved long-running situations,” Pakistan's acting envoy to the U.N. Amjad Hussain B Sial said.

“We understand this was an inadvertent omission, as Jammu and Kashmir is one of the oldest disputes on the agenda of the Security Council,” he said, speaking at the General Assembly session, which was discussing the functioning and reform of the Security Council.

It was organised by the U.K., which holds the presidency of the Security Council this month.


Was it not removed from the list earlier too ?

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby brihaspati » 15 Nov 2010 07:13

I think there is a lot of merit in the hypothesis that the GOI is not going to give up any of "Kashmir" - at least not for any of the common scenarios our "uninformed" minds can think of.

Think of it, an esteemed leader of our country and one of the only three deemed founding fathers of our nation - could bear the Partition massacres and rape on Bengalis and Punjabis, refused to sanction aid and provisions for Bengali Hindu refugees from East Pakistan riots in 47 at par with refugees from Punjab because "he" thought Bengalis had not really "suffered", and one who could easily sum up the sufferings of millions as the "necessary" "birth pangs" of a feminized nation. That very same leader however could not bear to lose "Kashmir", and the pain of abduction/raids on Kashmir Valley Muslims by Afghan and other tribals. Can you all not see the much higher rank in the "need to hold on to" enjoyed by "Kashmir"? It was so high that a very special Constitutional provision could be easily allowed granting virtually one-way dual citizenship status to the residents of that extra-special region. It is still so high that it gets a much larger share of the central Plan allocation and grant compared to other regions.

So much investment in money, resources, lives of soldiers, and political capital - cannot be abandoned so easily!

Sometimes it is difficult or downright impossible to distinguish what is possibly utter stupidity, shortsightedness, and mere temporary adhoc political expediency as distinct from profound statesmanship, stupendous foresight, deep commitment.

We should not imagine things! I think it is wonderful that we hate reading up history and avoid actually comparing what our devoted leaders say over their lifetimes - nay - lets say within the short space of 5 years. So we should not look back at the record of what our leaders actually said about potential "giving up" situations and what they actually did.

One declared that the "Partition" would take place over his dead body, but lived on to see it happen. Another declared along similar lines and took up an intransigent attitude towards any compromise on the same issue, but readily agreed to the Partition. I don't want to pile up the thread with their grave statements until '46, and compare it with actual events and their own statements from '47.

Anyone dares to claim that we have greater statesmen with greater foresight and greater commitment than those two - now?

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8281
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby anupmisra » 15 Nov 2010 07:20

Mushy's musings
Rambling and desperate at best. Confessions, at last?

Musharraf defends handling of Khan
Says no U.S. inquiry needed

Mr. Musharraf said in an interview with The Washington Times that Mr. Khan, who was freed last year from house arrest, "was a bit of a braggart" (unlike someone else we know?) by overstating his role in developing the first nuclear bomb for a Muslim-majority nation.Muslim-majority onleee? 97% Muslim?

You are implying either we are incapable of interrogating him, which is wrong and insulting," he said in the interview. "Or secondly, this means that we are bluffing, which is also unacceptable and an insult to the Pakistani people.


Mr. Musharraf said Mr. Khan overstated his role in acquiring the technology and know-how to build Pakistan's nuclear arsenal in post-conviction press interviews.


"This massive network was not of A.Q. Khan's. The massive network was of the Pakistan government and our intelligence, not of A.Q. Khan's network," Mr. Musharraf said.


:eek:

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Victor » 15 Nov 2010 07:58

negi wrote: to even think that India can do something about the PoK when it has not even formally integrated J&K.

These mutually exclusive events need not take place in that order. What is important is that they do take place.

Malayappan
BRFite
Posts: 434
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 00:11

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Malayappan » 15 Nov 2010 08:34

Pakistan's bomb fatigue has set in by Imran Khan of Al Jazeera
Pakistan had been relatively quiet over the last three months. I say "relatively" since we just witnessed the most devastating floods in the country's history - a tragedy of a different kind.

That led many to wonder whether the Pakistani Taliban were becoming a spent force. It seems that question has now been answered - in a deadly way.

I hope Pakistan never gets used to living with the fear of bombs. No one wants to live in fear, but surely no one wants to live with the numbness that comes with having no fear.

abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 Nov 2010 08:46

JE Menon wrote: How is it, then, that regardless of the strength or weakness of the government in power in New Delhi, no government has indicated publicly and formally any willingness to surrender an inch of J&K. It is your choice whether you want to take media proposals, or Musharraf's statements, or something else as more reliable than GOI statements. Where are the GOI statements to that effect?


The problem is that there is no difference in what the media has reported on what our PM had agreed. It is difficult to believe that reporters in three countries (India, US and Pak) have joined hands to discredit the GoI. And no govt. official has contradicted the reports that we agreed to some type of joint mechanism for handling J&K. In fact, Nirupama Rao said in Thimpu that we should "reaffirm the progress made during back-channel diplomacy." What were these discussions? If the reports on joint mechanism are false, then why don't we say so? Has the GoI "publicly and formally" denied them? (GoI does deny many incorrect reports from Pakis. Why not do it this time?)

If our inference must be limited to what has been articulated "publicly and formally" then our deductive closure would be small (and possibly inconsistent). If we try to find out what is common in our joint statements with NAM, China, US and Pakis, I think it will reduce to: "The leaders had a cordial meeting."

vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby vic » 15 Nov 2010 09:39

anupmisra wrote:Suicide bomber wounds nine in South Waziristan
AoA on a Sunday. No one met his 72 raisins.


The scores are getting disappointing especially am not happy with Freedom fighters failing to bat properly in karachi, now what i will do with 72,000 raisins?

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8204
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pratyush » 15 Nov 2010 09:43

Mean while in Pakistan, more blows rain in on H&D

Pak objects to no mention of Kashmir in UN list of disputes

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 15 Nov 2010 09:50


OMG! :eek: Can there be any bigger insult to Paki Ech&Dee? Obviously they discount '71 as below par insult.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3787
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby saip » 15 Nov 2010 10:06

vic wrote:
anupmisra wrote:Suicide bomber wounds nine in South Waziristan
AoA on a Sunday. No one met his 72 raisins.


The scores are getting disappointing especially am not happy with Freedom fighters failing to bat properly in karachi, now what i will do with 72,000 raisins?


RAW has to start to school for soocide bombers: Suicide Bombing 101 -- How to Kill 101 with your First Try and get 72 raisins.

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Arjun » 15 Nov 2010 10:25

saip wrote:RAW has to start to school for soocide bombers: Suicide Bombing 101 -- How to Kill 101 with your First Try and get 72 raisins.

You get a second attempt too? :eek: Probably in Jannat if they renege on the promised 72..! :lol:

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2010 10:50


KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4045
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 15 Nov 2010 10:55

JE Menon wrote:Pakisatan does not pose any real threat to India's security. Even if it goes nuclear, India will survive. All it can do is kill Indians and get some attention from the media. It is a noisy nuisance, which we would be happy to see the end of, but we must not focus on it to the extent that we miss the wood for the trees. The substantial external threats to the stability of India come (or perhaps I should say will come) from the US, China, Russia, a possible alliance of Islamic nations - not necessarily in that order. Pakistan is a pawn, nothing more - and its elites are unable to go beyond playing that role of a slightly irrational gun for hire, the type that gets killed well before the end of the movie.

Then of course we have some internal issues we need to keep a close eye on. That's a different story.


History tells us that when we don't recognize the true nature of the early threat (pak in this case) and think of it as just another hostile kingdom in the normal ecosystem, then the larger threat will sooner or later come to pass and overwhelm us. We can apply the same analysis of sticking to dharma and working on incremental positional play even in cases like the defeat of the Rajput confederacy by Ghori, fall of Vijayanagar etc. There is always an entropic degeneration in process, which will ensure that the passive will be ultimately defeated. Random events and changes will be taken advantage of by the activist adversary, while the passive one will not have any understanding to use those events to improve his position.

Dharma doesn't say that we shouldn't aggressively pursue the destruction of the rakshasa in his own stronghold.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23846
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2010 11:11

KLNMurthy wrote:Dharma doesn't say that we shouldn't aggressively pursue the destruction of the rakshasa in his own stronghold.

Dharmic practices should not be part of our foreign policy. Practice of statecraft should be devoid of such personal traits.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby svinayak » 15 Nov 2010 11:11

KLNMurthy wrote: Pakisatan does not pose any real threat to India's security. Even if it goes nuclear, India will survive. All it can do is kill Indians and get some attention from the media. It is a noisy nuisance,

History tells us that when we don't recognize the true nature of the early threat (pak in this case) and think of it as just another hostile kingdom in the normal ecosystem, then the larger threat will sooner or later come to pass and overwhelm us. We can apply the same analysis of sticking to dharma and working on incremental positional play even in cases like the defeat of the Rajput confederacy by Ghori, fall of Vijayanagar etc. There is always an entropic degeneration in process, which will ensure that the passive will be ultimately defeated. Random events and changes will be taken advantage of by the activist adversary, while the passive one will not have any understanding to use those events to improve his position.

Dharma doesn't say that we shouldn't aggressively pursue the destruction of the rakshasa in his own stronghold.

I agree with this that it is foolish to ignore the threat and underestimate it.
Demographics and global connection is what they have and this can take a life of its own.
There is a neccessity to reduce this risk and make the threat small or neutered in the long run. The ideology surround this threat needs to be reduced and eliminated in the long run

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1506
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 15 Nov 2010 11:18

JE Menon wrote:Or is someone saying Kao wasn't right in his assessment that we must allow Pakistan to stew in its own juices?


JE Menon wrote:Pakisatan does not pose any real threat to India's security. Even if it goes nuclear, India will survive. All it can do is kill Indians and get some attention from the media. It is a noisy nuisance, which we would be happy to see the end of, but we must not focus on it to the extent that we miss the wood for the trees. The substantial external threats to the stability of India come (or perhaps I should say will come) from the US, China, Russia, a possible alliance of Islamic nations - not necessarily in that order.


This is not a question of bravado or seeking revenge:

See when India was a 'poor developing country' with a 'Hindu rate of growth' (sarcastic!)
TSP going nuclear would have had less of an impact. 10-20 years from now, really?
TSP will still be a 'the cat's paw' but it can hurt. Game has changed onlee.

Looking at it differently, India without TSP has even greater strategic advantages.
If India has to be a pivot state in Brihat-Asia, there is only one obvious answer regards TSP.
It not a question of just threat and stability of India. It has to do with modeling Brihat-Asia.

Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1506
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 15 Nov 2010 11:32

SSridhar wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Dharma doesn't say that we shouldn't aggressively pursue the destruction of the rakshasa in his own stronghold.

Dharmic practices should not be part of our foreign policy. Practice of statecraft should be devoid of such personal traits.


Understand GOI is secular and hope it stays so, but secular foreign policy too :-?
India as a nation is also about a civilization...

If Arthashastra is being followed then -
Arthashastra introduced greater realism, intellectual freedom, inductive logic, etc.
Dharmashastra is perhaps more deductive. However, essentially both are Vedic.

OT onlee, but will be happy to argue my point in GDF.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby svinayak » 15 Nov 2010 11:45


Pak is a bankrupt state working on nuke plants


India Seeks Aid in Blocking China-Pakistan Atomic Deal
Friday, Aug. 27, 2010

India is seeking the backing of six smaller nuclear export control group nations in its quest to prevent China from building two new nuclear reactors in Pakistan, the Times of India reported today (see GSN, July 23).

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20626
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Philip » 15 Nov 2010 12:02

TSP should be renamed as TCSP,"C" standing for "corrupt".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ption.html

Britain warns Pakistan over corruption
Britain has warned Pakistan that its failure to reform its corrupt and wasteful government has put in jeopardy its chances of emerging as the biggest recipient of British foreign aid.

By Damien McElroy, Foreign Affairs Correspondent 9:00PM GMT 14 Nov 2010
Foreign aid donations to Pakistan have fallen far short of a UN target over corruption fears. The country's officials have rebuffed efforts to ensure aid spending on recovery from the devastating floods it suffered in August is not tainted by corruption.

A row over Pakistan's demands that aid payments are handed over to the government in cash is threating to derail efforts to raise billions of pounds to rebuild schools, roads, power plants and homes.

Andrew Mitchell, the International Development Secretary, is attending the Pakistan Development Forum in Islamabad on Monday and will demand four sweeping reforms across four sectors in return for continued growth in British aid payment.



Mr Mitchell is to demand a root and branch overhaul of the tax system, an overhaul of government spending to eliminate waste, a "transparent" system to dispense rebuilding aid free from political interference and a campaign to drive out corrupt officials.

Without a plan to radically shake up the bureaucracy, Pakistan is facing a humiliating blow to its efforts to finance the reconstruction of the flood ravaged economy.


The United Nations however only received $800 million of the $2 billion, the biggest appeal in its history, it called for to provide immediate relief.

It is expected to encounter even less enthusiasm as it appeals for billions today and tomorrow at the Pakistan Development forum.
Last edited by Philip on 15 Nov 2010 12:05, edited 1 time in total.

Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 586
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby Raja Ram » 15 Nov 2010 12:03

On the topic of GOI approach to Pakistan war by terror over the years and the current cusp of time and space presesnts to the Indian leadership of the day. I am reminded of the Bard's famous lines -
"There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures."

Brutus to Cassius in Julius Ceasar. Brutus and Cassius are discussing the final phase of their civil war with the forces of Octavian and Marcus Antonius. Cassius urges that they group their forces and take advantage of the secure location to catch their breath. Brutus, however, advocates heading off the enemy before Octavian can recruit more men. Brutus's main point is that, since "the enemy increaseth every day" and "We, at the height, are ready to decline", he and Cassius must act now while the ratio of forces is most advantageous. "There's a tide in the affairs of men," he insists; that is, power is a force that ebbs and flows in time, and one must "go with the flow." Waiting around only allows your power to pass its crest and begin to ebb; if the opportunity is "omitted" (missed), you'll find yourself stranded in miserable shallows.

So gentle rakshaks, is there now a time in the ebb and flow of power that is offered to India now? If so, should we do the same as before and wait or "catch the tide at its flood" and not regret later? That is the question. Many a time before have such ebbs been offered.

What can we do but wait, for as the bard says again -

"There's a divinity that shapes our ends,
Rough-hew them how we will."

We have to leave it to Bharat's Bhagya Vidhata, I suppose.

James B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2249
Joined: 08 Nov 2008 21:23
Location: Samjhautha Express with an IED

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby James B » 15 Nov 2010 18:16

The Wh*ore called TSP

Image

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23846
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2010 18:17

A Letter in DT
India-US relationship

Sir: This is with reference to Dr Hasan-Askari Rizvi’s column ‘The visit and Pakistan’ (Daily Times, November 14, 2010). One needs to understand that the India-US relationship is not directed against any third country, much less Pakistan with which the US has a longstanding strategic relationship. It, therefore, surprises one when Pakistan fears this proximity between these two countries even while accusing the US of not using its ‘newly earned influence’ with India to settle the enduring hostility between India and Pakistan. One needs to be sure if Kashmir and a few other issues alone determine this enduring hostility or if there is anything more sinister and deeper than these. In any case, such issues cannot and should not justify terror and a state cannot turn a blind eye to such goings on under the rubric of ‘non-state actors’. To claim, therefore, a quid pro quo is akin to condoning terror otherwise. As for Afghanistan, India is still waiting for a dossier of Indian wrongdoings from the soil of that country after it was agreed in Sharm el-Sheikh more than a year back that this matter would be discussed. Mere apprehension cannot be the source for any demands. Anyway, one is glad to see that Pakistan no longer claims India has dozens of consulates along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border as it used to do before.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23846
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby SSridhar » 15 Nov 2010 19:09

Gilani wants international community to be 'patient with Pakistan'
Amid criticism from Western donors over widespread corruption within the Pakistan government and misuse of aid, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Monday asked the international community “to be patient with Pakistan” as it grapples with a host of challenges ranging from terrorism to post-flood reconstruction.

The government is committed to “lead people through painful yet fundamental reforms”, Mr. Gilani said in his address at the plenary session of the Pakistan Development Forum, which is being attended by representatives of countries and institutions providing aid to the country.

“We are prepared to take political risks for providing the necessary leadership to our people. We have demonstrated our will to take unpopular decisions. However, our resolve to lead our people to a glorious tomorrow is unflinching,” Mr.Gilani said.

Pakistan has faced considerable criticism from Western donors in recent months over widespread corruption within the government and reports of misuse of aid provided for millions of people affected by devastating floods earlier this year.

It has also faced criticism from key allies, including the U.S., for relying too much on external aid and failing to do more to raise revenues from internal resources.

Mr. Gilani referred to these concerns in his speech and said Pakistan, like other developing countries, has “problems of governance” and “issues of transparency and corruption.”

“Please consider this as work in progress. Kindly be patient with Pakistan...We look towards you for understanding and support,” the Prime Minister underlined.

He acknowledged that the country does not “invest enough” in social sectors and needs global assistance, knowledge and expertise to overcome such challenges.

He highlighted the need for “long-term, consistent support” {Begging} so that “we can continue on a journey which would make Pakistan, and its people, realize their full potential“.

“The extreme difficulties that...the people of Pakistan have faced over the last three years have tested us.

They have tested our resolve as a nation. They have tested our courage. They have tested our determination. They have tested our resilience. We as a nation have faced these challenges,” the Prime Minister said.

“In an environment that has been badly damaged by floods, and badly shaken by frequent attacks by terrorists, our people must not lose hope. We want to give our people especially our youth, a message of hope. That is the only way to realize the potential we talk about when we speak of a demographic dividend,” Mr. Gilani added.

ajit_tr
BRFite
Posts: 412
Joined: 16 May 2010 21:28

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby ajit_tr » 15 Nov 2010 19:44

NSFWS
Pakistan army killing innocent Pashtuns old man



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1-D8CuP ... r_embedded
Last edited by ajit_tr on 15 Nov 2010 20:43, edited 2 times in total.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2540
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby darshhan » 15 Nov 2010 19:45

According to Long war Journal Al qaeda's branch brigade 313(Led by Illyas Kashmiri) was involved in Karachi CID building strike.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... taliba.php
Yesterday the Taliban and Brigade 313, al Qaeda's branch in Pakistan, jointly carried out a devastating attack on a police headquarters in Karachi. Several members of the assault team escaped after the battle.

The assault took place at the Crime Investigation Department headquarters in a highly secured area of Karachi in Sindh province. Two vehicles, and not one as initially reported, were used in the assault, according to witness statements and closed circuit television footage analyzed by Pakistani investigators.

The first team of attackers dismounted from a jeep and attacked the guards at the front gate, killing them and clearing the path so that the second truck, which was packed with an estimated 1,000 to 2,000 pounds of explosives, could enter the compound.

“A Shezore or a larger Mazda truck laden with explosives was used in the blast and terrorists used a Prado jeep, whose occupants first killed guards posted at the CID gate, clearing the way for the truck to enter the building,” a senior Pakistani police officer told Dawn.

Another Pakistani security official claimed that the suicide assault team had enough time to raid the headquarters' armory, and escaped with a number of weapons, Daily Times reported.

Several of the attackers boarded the jeep and fled the attack after the truck was detonated by a suicide bomber. During the assault, 17 people were killed, including two CID officers and five paramilitary soldiers guarding the building.

The attack appears to have been designed to free two Taliban commanders, one from Karachi and another associated with Bajaur Taliban chieftain Faqir Mohammed, and six Lashkar-e-Jhangvi operatives detained over the past week who were being held at the police compound. It is unclear if the captive Taliban commanders and LeJ members were freed or killed during the attack.


The attack also resulted in the loss of evidence and information on terrorists and criminals being held and investigated by the CID in Karachi. "The CID’s data on crime, notorious criminals and informers was completely destroyed, so the CID officials have no information about the suspects who were being investigated," Daily Times reported.

Brigade 313 involved in Karachi CID assault

While the Taliban claimed it carried out yesterday's attack in Karachi, al Qaeda's branch in Pakistan was also likely involved in the operation. The Taliban immediately claimed the attack, just hours after the deadly blast.

"We will continue such attacks as long as military operations continue against us," Azam Tariq, the top spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban, told reporters.

But US intelligence officials familiar with al Qaeda's operations in Pakistan believe that Ilyas Kashmiri's Brigade 313 was involved in the assault. Al Qaeda, the Pakistani Taliban, and a host of Pakistani terror groups often carry out joint operations in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India.

"You can see Kashmiri's hand in this attack; it has his signature," one official told The Long War Journal. "The attack was well scouted and planned, and executed almost flawlessly. They carried this attack out in a secure area, so it is likely they received some form of inside help from within Pakistan's security forces. Kashmiri has those links."

Kashmiri, a long-time jihadi trained and supported by Pakistan's military and intelligence services to wage jihad in Kashmiri, took command of al Qaeda's military wing after his predecessor, Abdullah Said al Libi, was killed in a US Predator strike in December 2009.

Kashmiri has organized multiple attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. "Kashmiri has supported attacks against Pakistani government personnel and facilities, including the 2009 attack against the offices of the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and the Pakistani police in Lahore, Pakistan that killed 23 people and left hundreds injured," the US Treasury Department stated in a press release that announced his addition to the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists.

A US intelligence official also told The Long War Journal that Kashmiri planned and organized the October 2009 assault on the Pakistani Army's General Headquarters complex in Rawalpindi. In that attack, the terrorist assault team shut down the complex for 18 hours; 11 soldiers were killed, including a brigadier general and a lieutenant colonel, along with nine members of the assault team; and 39 hostages were freed.

Kashmiri has also planned and executed high-profile assassinations of top Pakistani military leaders. "He directed the October 2008 assassination of the former commander of the Pakistani Special Services Group, General Amir Faisal Alvi, in retaliation for his role in the fight against militants in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan," according to Treasury. "He also led an al Qaeda-linked cell in planning for the assassination of a Pakistani Army general – a plan that was eventually abandoned due to al Qaeda's strategic considerations."



Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/ ... z15MWseFAn
Last edited by darshhan on 15 Nov 2010 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby RamaY » 15 Nov 2010 19:49

self delete...
Last edited by RamaY on 15 Nov 2010 20:02, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2

Postby shiv » 15 Nov 2010 20:01

brihaspati wrote:. So we should not look back at the record of what our leaders actually said about potential "giving up" situations and what they actually did.


The larger mistake in my view is to imagine that these errors are restricted to Indian leaders alone while non Indian leaders are endowed with wisdom and sagacity that should make us burn with jealousy.

Leaders from ever country in the world have made profound errors leading to disaster and world history may be read as the result of one set of leaders accidentally making fewer mistakes than the other, or getting away by pure luck.

Military men often write military history and declare that "victory" was merely because the other guy was just unlucky to lose - looking at the number of errors and bad judgements made on the historian's own side. But military men tend to be held accountable unlike political leaders who are often not accountable. Pure probability would ensure that at any given time most leaders of most nations are ill informed idiots who are bungling their way through governance. It is an established "sleight of hand" that makes the media and other people automatically "respect" leaders as real leaders when they have got there by sheer luck and not by any special abilities in leading nations.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests