Indian Autos Thread

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 26 Nov 2010 20:10

TY for the analysis, Aditya. 106% duty omg thats a loot.Wonder who decides this.Upto 30% duty (as applicable for small cars) is understandable.106% is too steep.Totally a deterrant, might as well buy the car in India at the price available.No point in bringing one back when returning on Transfer of Residence even, though the duty would be considerably lesser.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 26 Nov 2010 20:22

Never worry about somebody hitting you from behind as long as you are in your lane (not changing) at least in US. In India who cares for the derrier, just drive on and in case of accident get down and start shouting at the highest volume but be prepared to sustain it for about 30 min to 45 min , dont move the vehicle and jam the traffic a quick compromise is the achieved like GOI dealing with TSP and Kasmiri speratists.

Congress has no time to solve problem, its hands are tied up looting the country and creating more problems.

So in nut shell visibility behind the car is not an issue just visibility before the car not for humanity but to aviod dicthes.

Thats how you buy a car in India

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Nov 2010 11:33

Guys one query regarding breaks. In a M 800. If I brake at higher speeds, the braking performance is adequate. But lower speeds 30 to 40 cause it to skid. Very surprising. What could be the reason for that?

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 28 Nov 2010 04:19

abhischekcc
Recently I talked to a TATA walah at Art of Living function in Brusselabad. Guy was very upbeat about Nano-in-Europe in future. Any truth in that or he was just doing his job?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 28 Nov 2010 05:39

On non ABS vehicles, it is always a better idea to pump brakes instead of panic braking it into wheel locks.

RSingh, TATA does have ambitious plans for nano in european market. The small car leaning population there is a much better bet than the 'big is better' thinking market in north America. Their earlier venture with indica through Rover failed. Hopefully they do better this time around.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 28 Nov 2010 19:11

unequal hydraulic pressure and or uneven wear on pads, release springs on the drum, all these needs to be looked for weel locking and sliding.

Also most people do not understand that after they drive through pool of water rain or sewer on Indian roads You need to make the residual water/moisture to eveoprate by driving with the foot on the brake for some short time...

Raja · Post by **Raja** » 01 Dec 2010 22:07

Only 500 nano's sold this month. Can Tata turn the nano ship around? What would it take?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Dec 2010 09:56

Guys have you seen the latest scam from Toyota and the media in India. The Toyota Echo ( stopped being Sold in the US, Europe and ME in 2005) is being sold as alll new global realease, emerging market car in India. I have looked at the pics, the central console speedo and tach., headights, rear shape and lights. and kerb weight is also 930Kgs with a 1.5 liter engine heavier than the old 1.3. I have no doubt that the Etios sedan is nothing but a rebadged Echo.

WHat Toyota wont say is the ECHO production was stopped since it did not meet US and Europe crash test standards. Thats why even with a 1.5 ltr engine it weighs only 930KG, whereas is why other sedans(1.5 ltr-1.6 ltr) are a good 250 -500 kg heavier. Even the swift with a 1.2 ltr VXI weighs 1000kg. Looks Toyota have deceided to go with a cheap, fuel efficient zippy light vehicle which however, has the 90's style light doors which do badly in side impact crashes.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 02 Dec 2010 10:33

why is it a scam?
doesnt nano sell in india but cant be sold in EU/US since it fails their tests. And not just nano, but many others too.
If our regulation dont ask for stricter safety, then how is it a toyota scam?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2010 10:57

the mahindra logan I felt had quite thin body panels and doors. created a lot of interior room for its small size.

whatever standards we have in India - wouldnt the Etios have had to clear these first before obtaining approval?

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Dec 2010 12:22

Hmm. Any vehicle not exported out of India will fail the crash tests.

It is a scam all right. The major perpetrators of these are in the order of scoundrel ness, with the biggest at 1.

1) Maruti /Suzuki : Except for the A-Star and Swift (and derivatives ), all others will fail Euro crash tests. So the bulk /volume models with the overwhelming majority of sales wont meet crash tests of 15 years ago , some will fail crash tests of 20 years ago!

2) Mahindra & Mahindra : All their vehicles bar NONE are not even crash tested. They dont even have a facility for that and even if they did get it tested outside (like VRDE, outside India), no one knows the status. Definitely will fail most ones.

3)Toyota : The "emerging market" models, specifically, the Hi-Lux series based trucks like Innova etc and the ugly Logan clone / rebadged Echo and absolute garbage reeking of cheapness ; the Etios ,will in all probability fail. So IT/Vity Munnas driving Innova and thinking they are very TFTA , remember!

Notable Exceptions.

1) Honda - All their models are current international models sold elsewhere. Will pass with flying colors. I shudder to think what the newly announced Brio, which boasts will weigh much less than any other car in it's class will be like.

2) Tata - All their cars are crash tested and will meet safety regulations . Nano being an exception. However I do think that the Nano Europa versions will have those standards along with the engine, brand new interiors and all the other "export" doo-dads

3) Hyundai - All their models except the old Santro are current. Will meet those requirements.

4) GM - Same as Hyundai , maybe for the Spark.

5) VW - All uber tfta Oieropean spec onree, except for garbage derated engines (they have to cut corners somewhere)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Dec 2010 12:28

AdityaM wrote:why is it a scam?
doesnt nano sell in india but cant be sold in EU/US since it fails their tests. And not just nano, but many others too.
If our regulation dont ask for stricter safety, then how is it a toyota scam?

The scam is not the safety regulations.

The scam is Toyota( which I can understand) and every auto programme zigwheels, autodrive in about 5 channels(nothing but paid adversting) showing this as some new car Toyata have built from the ground up with the latest techngoly keeping India in mind.

The scam is comparing it with Hyundai I20, A-star, Swift type where the global small car is made in India with a view to export to all markets when the truth is like the Qualis, Toyota is bringing an outdated model where it has stopped production in every other market and is being now sold in India.

I think Toyata and atleast the Media should be a bit more honest that this a rebaged Echo

Vina-> what about Ford, I am sure the IKon will not meet the crash tests but the Fiesta, Figo and Endevour should meet them

SImilarly, I see Volkswagen models also being of Decent standard

niran · Post by **niran** » 02 Dec 2010 12:53

Aditya_V wrote:Guys have you seen the latest scam from Toyota and the media in India. The Toyota Echo ( stopped being Sold in the US, Europe and ME in 2005) i

Tojuta Echo is now called Tojuta Yaris, yes it is light and dinky small, but philosophy behind them is
for Young trendy funky kowledge going lads, so it has to be small light spirited, BTW they are supposedly use and throw not meant to be repaired,
so no point to crash test pass them.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 02 Dec 2010 15:32

^^"use and throw"?? "not meant to be repaired"??

Boss, that's pure snake oil. My mama's son's uncle's brother works for a communication agency representing Toyota, and believe me, the emphasis in all communications is on the "quality" and "trust" of the brand. That's why the new campaign focuses on the promise of "Q" and features AR Rehman looking very "heartfelt" or something.
There is even a conspir-e-theory that the car looks like that deliberately, setting it apart from the Honda spaceships and Fiat sex-bombs. It's meant to communicate "solid, reliable, family value" to first time purchasers of a Toyota. That's why "my first" communication element.
Pure snake oil.

niran · Post by **niran** » 02 Dec 2010 15:46

^^^ then you can perhaps explain why the repair shops refuses to undent a dent on body panels citing too thin and
the front and rear bumper cover is made of cardboard mixed with some scrape metal and plastique so very conveniently
named as exotic synthetic fiber. onlee change is performed no undenting, hence i say it is "use and throw"

edited later i forgot to add "Please"

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 02 Dec 2010 16:25

Vina-> what about Ford, I am sure the IKon will not meet the crash tests but the Fiesta, Figo and Endevour should meet them

Ford Fiesta is India specific designed out of Australia. It is not sold anywhere else, so dunno if it will meet Euro regulations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2010 16:38

iirc Innova hasnt even had a interior upg let alone a engine/pwrtrain update in its service life here! and they have used the underlying base to make the FORTUNER which is again in high demand. people were willing to pay 2L premium to get one.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Dec 2010 22:58

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 02 Dec 2010 23:10

niran wrote:^^^ then you can perhaps explain why the repair shops refuses to undent a dent on body panels citing too thin and
the front and rear bumper cover is made of cardboard mixed with some scrape metal and plastique so very conveniently
named as exotic synthetic fiber. onlee change is performed no undenting, hence i say it is "use and throw"

edited later i forgot to add "Please"

Bumper same as massa. Easier to replace than repair. Cheaper Also. Not built to withstand any collisions rather for cosmetic(scratchs) and airflow purposes only.
While on this topic Massa Insurance is geared to replace rather than repair any vehicle when the repair cost amounts to around 60% of the cost of the vehicle. This percentage might vary from car to car. So when a car is considered totalled in massa it might still be repareable by any other country standards.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 03 Dec 2010 01:37

Raja wrote:Only 500 nano's sold this month. Can Tata turn the nano ship around? What would it take?

It could just be a anomaly. Let's see how they do in the next month.

AdityM,

Toyota came into the market with a very outdated model Qualis. It is clear now that their strategy is to treat India as a dumping ground of their outdated models than invest in anything new or even what they are offering the rest of the world. And they demand a premium. I would never buy a Toyota in India with their current mindset.

We are much better off in giving money to somebody who may not be the best in the world now, but has a vision of offering us a better car in the future.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 03 Dec 2010 01:45

Jayram wrote:While on this topic Massa Insurance is geared to replace rather than repair any vehicle when the repair cost amounts to around 60% of the cost of the vehicle.

I had to replace a rear bumper because some idiot punched two holes into it by bumping with the license plate screws. Total cost of bumper was $650 and I had to shell out a deductible of $300. Repair cost would have been less than $100...since it was only a month old car, I thought, well for only $200 more - I get a new bumper. I would have been happy if the insurance did a repair for $100 and I was charged nothing. I was told that it is not an option and as per policy they would spend $350 and I should spend $300 for two holes

The reason why these people prefer a replacement is because then the quality of work is not a factor and there would lesser follow up issues (costing the insurance to track the case etc).

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 03 Dec 2010 10:43

Gus, Nano sales has been declining for the past two months. One reason cited was the shifting of the plant from Pant Nagar to Gujarat but I think psy ops with media going overboard on fire incidents, sounds like an auto etc. are taking its toll. I test drove it and really loved it. Wanted to get one for my dad but he vetoed it due to lack of power steering (he has plate fixed in his right arm). Tata has been going all out to market the nano. In fact of late, ever since I took the test drive, Tata Motors has been regularly following up with me, asking me feedback on why I took the decision of not buying etc. Did not get even 10% of the nano's response for my intended Manza purchase.

Added later:
Heard that there has been a Toyota press yesterday release mentioning that even the new Etios about to be delivered for customers in India may be recalled for the same issues that their others cars are facing globally but customers don't need to worry for sort. Will try to confirm the source.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Dec 2010 12:05

Sridhar K wrote: Added later:
Heard that there has been a Toyota press yesterday release mentioning that even the new Etios about to be delivered for customers in India

Again New Etios should be "old dumped-in-rest-of-the-world Echo/Vios" whatever

I hope the public at large is educated about this aspect.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 03 Dec 2010 14:16

agree but toyota media mgmt seems very good. Just check out the review at zigwheels starting with 'a quite revolution will hit Indian roads.'

vina · Post by **vina** » 03 Dec 2010 16:25

agree but toyota media mgmt seems very good. Just check out the review at zigwheels starting with 'a quite revolution will hit Indian roads.'

Oh.. The Indian media (in general) and esp the auto ones are total wh*res who will pimp themselves to anyone who shows the moolah. The new entrants (most notably Toyota, VW and Skoda etc) pour serious monies into wining and dining the automag journos and taking them out on furrin trips to homelands and fat kickbacks via kind and cash (advertising, patronage etc) for that kind of stuff.

For eg, I met a Japanese guy with a very impressive sounding "Vice President" title here, who was hired by the marketing /ad agency here and the sole charter of the Japanese guy was to be the "account executive" for Toyota. It is so friggin funny, that I cant believe it. The Japanese managers want "cultural familiarity" and a "uniformity" even talking to the vendors and most crucially someone like a local ad agency who must bring in the flavors and cultural nuances and commonsense into ads and camapaigns and marketings! No wonder most of those Japanese types are absolutely tone deaf and lose out big time in the longer run to more culturally tuned folks with ears in the ground in some crucial markets. Funnily enough, the Japanese guy had a YumBeeYea from a top US school and so was more "international" , but I guess was still a dyed in the wool Japanese to deal with the thick skinned Japanese management in TKM!

It is crazy that the Japanse dont do in other places what they do in the US, but think that India is more like "Thailand" or even "China" in terms of messaging and needs and aspirations and you can dump outdated /tweaked rubbish here in India without longterm disastrous results.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 21:30

thailand and malaysia are much different markets than india. the per capita income is a lot higher, roads much better and orderly, in malaysia petrol is quite cheap and people in rural areas quite fond of pickup trucks. corollas are used as taxis in BKK while here the taxi wallahs struggle to put together a Indica or Logan and repay loans.

strategies which work there wont work here.

imo both toyota and honda have a lot more models in thailand/malaysia/singapore atleast compared to very limited portfolio in India.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Dec 2010 23:20

vina wrote:
For eg, I met a Japanese guy with a very impressive sounding "Vice President" title here, who was hired by the marketing /ad agency here and the sole charter of the Japanese guy was to be the "account executive" for Toyota. It is so friggin funny, that I cant believe it. The Japanese managers want "cultural familiarity" and a "uniformity" even talking to the vendors and most crucially someone like a local ad agency who must bring in the flavors and cultural nuances and commonsense into ads and camapaigns and marketings!

Was he working for a Indian ad agency.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2010 03:00

Sridhar K wrote:Gus, Nano sales has been declining for the past two months. .........

nano has zero presence on TV. it also suffers from an image that it is cheap and flimsy like chinese products. they seriously need to get a half decent celebrity to endorse it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2010 08:19

and for urban mkts introduce better NVH, a openable trunk hatch , good sound system etc - without these the youth will not buy. maybe beef up the wheels and engine also

if it was originally intended as a car for villagers something is wrong there too - villagers simply are not buying this.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Dec 2010 11:46

To add to what Singha has said, all this coverage of the worlds cheapest car has put off many people from buying the Nano , even Indica Cab drivers talk disparingly of the car how it cannot go more than 40, in reality its performance is as good as the Maruti 800 sold pto 1997-98 with 4 gears 39HP engine, only thing missing is the Boot opening from th back.

Come to think of it even I feel it is bit of a compromise of safety and would not buy one today while 10-12 years back in my teens I was happy to drive Maruti Omni at 100K's caring a damn about safety. Mann times have changed.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 04 Dec 2010 12:17

Acharya wrote:
vina wrote:
For eg, I met a Japanese guy with a very impressive sounding "Vice President" title here, who was hired by the marketing /ad agency here and the sole charter of the Japanese guy was to be the "account executive" for Toyota. It is so friggin funny, that I cant believe it. The Japanese managers want "cultural familiarity" and a "uniformity" even talking to the vendors and most crucially someone like a local ad agency who must bring in the flavors and cultural nuances and commonsense into ads and camapaigns and marketings!
Was he working for a Indian ad agency.

I'd guess he was with Dentsu, which is a Japanese agency that represents big Japanese clients internationally - and yes, they do have Japanese employees working in India servicing accounts, including Toyota.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2010 16:18

I noticed today all auto mags this month have cover story on Etios

the TV/print media interface to auto cos works like a well oiled machine.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Dec 2010 23:33

^ oh yes...these 'reviewers' who write for these auto magazines etc..are all getting 'taken care' of by various means to write glorious reviews. Even as a college kid I read a few of these reviews and figured out they were a little short of...honesty.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 05 Dec 2010 03:18

Gus wrote:AdityM,
Toyota came into the market with a very outdated model Qualis. It is clear now that their strategy is to treat India as a dumping ground of their outdated models than invest in anything new or even what they are offering the rest of the world.

So did Fiat (Uno). So did Ford (escort). so did Maruti(800). So did Peugeot !
Qualis finished off the Sumo. Outdated or not, it sold like hotcakes and cornered an entire market. Innova was introduced even when Qualis was selling strong. Toyota could have gone on selling Qualis, but they killed it themselves rather than waiting for any competitors.
And why blame Toyota. Did our desi firms fare any better? HM & Premier sold 1950's cars to us right up till the 2000s

Gus wrote:And they demand a premium. I would never buy a Toyota in India with their current mindset.
We are much better off in giving money to somebody who may not be the best in the world now, but has a vision of offering us a better car in the future.

Toyota also sells cars in higher segments like altis,camry,fortuner & Prius. They are the same as you will get elsewhere. Yes you will get a half a dozen other Toyota models in cities like Singapore, but they should have a robust market for that in india.

Would you buy the ANHC. That car sells simply because people want a premium brand. This car offers nothing and costs an outrageous amount. For that price you could by other cars in the same segment & still save 1.5 lakhs & get more features.
would you waste money on an overpriced Jazz? i think its Honda that has its pricing all messed up.
Honda is popular since it came in the market with no competitor. but now you have linea or SX4.
Toyota seemed to be second place to honda simply because Toyota did not have a car in the C segment. And now they have introduced.

I am happy with my toyota and found that no other brand was giving as much at the same price.

niran · Post by **niran** » 05 Dec 2010 06:21

AdityaM wrote: Toyota also sells cars in higher segments like altis,camry,fortuner & Prius. They are the same as you will get elsewhere.

Corrola Altis is Taxi not high segment why would one spend a million plus and be seen driving a Taxi? is beyond me.
Camry is called poor man's Acord
Fortuner is a pickup with 5 doors and Indians lap it up as SUV, amazing.
Prius what Pirius? onlee idiot Tojuta employee buy them under employee benefit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2010 07:42

Camry and Altis are good vehicles. infact Altis outsells the civic in India most months....camry has almost no sales compared to accord though. both are the same models sold in japan/eu/usa. altis has certain feature and structure advantages over civic like a higher GC with people loaded in back, HID lamps, headlamp washers, steering wheel audio buttons....Civic has a useless (for india) cruise control buttons on wheel....and the horn is located right in center out of thumbs reach...many a time due to my santro instincts I tried to horn but ended by pressing the cruise control button....one has to take a hand off the wheel to blow horn in civic.

altis also has a higher back seat (good for elderly people to get in and out). on flip side its looks are not that hot and its interior room esp back seat is less than civic.

Fortuner has the advantage of a bideshi interior and much higher ground clearance and intimidating looks -vs- CRV/Captiva/X-trail....so it sells quite well...people in that price range 20L and going for SUV want to make a 'statement' and fortuner does it.

niran · Post by **niran** » 05 Dec 2010 09:48

so Singha guru you are a Civci, good, good, moi have one, since last couple of years, it beats all cars in mid size segments
in comfort, looks, and drive ability including Beem 3 series, if you over look its affinity to scrape road protrusion of course.

and what image Fortuner owner portrays other than "Duped pickup drivers"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2010 10:07

are you in BKK hence the dislike for corolla ?

I agree the interior room of current civic is quite good - 3 people in back @ good comfort level.

after a initial few days of scraping bottom, my driving style from santro adjusted to the civic and now I automatically slow down much slower (compared to santro driver) when moving over road humps. for extra 'tall' humps my musharaff also involuntarily clenches tight ... some kind of free kegel/prostate exercise which will serve me in middle age I think.

the Lok Ayukta here has filed a PIL and made sure BBMP has smoothened all tall humps on major roads in blr - a few still exist like a infamous one near Jalsa restaurant in ORR but mostly its ok....havent scraped bottom in months now

in rural roads one has to be quite cautious though...esp with people in back.

Fortuner is perhaps favoured by those who cannot afford a Audi Q5/BMW Xn/Land Cruiser ..... in interior room its about par with the CR-V, but has a more aggressive bonnet and bigger tyres and ground clearance. the independent rear suspension of CRV should guarantee a smoother ride though.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 05 Dec 2010 10:45

It may be better to keep the horn out of reach. It is abused as it is.

AdityaM, thanks for the updates.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 05 Dec 2010 17:14

[quote="niran"]Corrola Altis is Taxi not high segment why would one spend a million plus and be seen driving a Taxi? is beyond me.
Camry is called poor man's Acord
Fortuner is a pickup with 5 doors and Indians lap it up as SUV, amazing.
Prius what Pirius? onlee idiot Tojuta employee buy them under employee benefit.[/quote]
Altis is Taxi in S'pore etc. But then they even have Hyundai Elantras, Mercs & Chryslers as taxis there! So whats your point?

By your logic, no one should buy any Tata car, WagonR, old Esteem, Logan etc because they are used as cabs all over india.
Fortuner sells more than all other SUVs combined in india now days. pity the silly indians who missed your insights before buying this expensive 5 door pickup!

I find my Altis to be very comfortable and there is plenty of room in the back as well as the front, as well as under the chassis for the bumps in the roads.
Its also a lakh cheaper than the comparable Civic which doesnt appeal much in terms of looks to me. yes, Civic has got a digital odometer, but thats a cosmetic appeal which you will bore out of after 2 months of ownership.
Otherwise most cars in that price band are pretty much the same. All offer some cosmetic frills or the other; But that should not be the basis of ones purchase. Unless of course money is not a concern.