PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

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Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... bites.html

China's credit bubble on borrowed time as inflation bites
Officially, inflation was 4.4pc in October, and may reach 5pc in November, but it is to hard find anybody in China who believes it is that low. Vegetables have risen 20pc in a month.
Diana Choyleva from Lombard Street Research said the money supply rose at a 40pc rate in 2009 and the first half of 2010 as Beijing stoked an epic credit boom to keep uber-growth alive, but the costs of this policy now outweigh the benefits.

The economy is entering the ugly quadrant of cycle – stagflation – where credit-pumping leaks into speculation and price spirals, even as growth slows. Citigroup’s Minggao Shen said it now takes a rise of ¥1.84 in the M2 money supply to generate just one yuan of GDP growth, up from ¥1.30 earlier this decade.

The froth is going into property. Experts argue heatedly over whether or not China has managed to outdo America’s subprime bubble, or even match the Tokyo frenzy of late 1980s. The IMF straddles the two.

It concluded in a report last week that there was no nationwide bubble but that home prices in Shenzen, Shanghai, Beijing, and Nanjing seem "increasingly disconnected from fundamentals".

Prices are 22 times disposable income in Beijing, and 18 times in Shenzen, compared to eight in Tokyo. The US bubble peaked at 6.4 and has since dropped 4.7. The price-to-rent ratio in China’s eastern cities has risen by over 200pc since 2004

The IMF said land sales make up 30pc of local government revenue in Beijing. This has echoes of Ireland where "fair weather" property taxes disguised the erosion of state finances.

Ms Choyleva said China drew a false conclusion from the global credit crisis that their top-down economy trumps the free market, failing to see that the events of 2008-2009 did equally great damage to them – though of a different kind. It closed the door on mercantilist export strategies that depend on cheap loans, a cheap currency, and the willingness of the West to tolerate predatory trade.

China is trying to keep the game going as if nothing has changed, but cannot do so. It dares not raise rates fast enough to let air out of the bubble because this would expose the bad debts of the banking system. The regime is stymied.

"The Chinese growth machine is likely to continue to function in the minds of people long after it has no visible means of support. China’s potential growth rate could well halve to 5pc in this decade," she said.

As it happens, Fitch Ratings has just done a study with Oxford Economics on what would happen if China does indeed slow to under 5pc next year, tantamount to a recession for China. The risk is clearly there. Fitch said private credit has grown to 148pc of GDP, compared to a median of 41pc for emerging markets. It said the true scale of loans to local governments and state entities has been disguised.

The result of such a hard landing would be a 20pc fall in global commodity prices, a 100 basis point widening of spreads on emerging market debt, a 25pc fall in Asian bourses, a fall in the growth in emerging Asia by 2.6 percentage points, with a risk that toxic politics could make matters much worse.
China may have hit the "Lewis turning point", named after the Nobel economist Arthur Lewis from St Lucia. It is the moment for each catch-up economy when the supply of cheap labour from the countryside dries up, leading to a surge in industrial wages. That reserve army of 120m Chinese migrants everybody was so worried about four years ago has already dwindled to 25m.

China’s problem is that this is happening just as the aging crisis starts to bite. The number of workers will decline in absolute terms within four years. The society will then tip into precipitous demographic decline. Unlike Japan, it will become old before it is has built a cushion of wealth.

If there is a hard-landing in 2011, China’s reserves of $2.6 trillion – or over $3 trillion if counted fully – will not help much. Professor Michael Pettis from Beijing University says the money cannot be used internally in the economy.

While this fund does offer China external protection, Mr Pettis notes wryly that the only other times in the last century when one country accumulated reserves equal to 5pc to 6pc of global GDP was US in the 1920s, and Japan in the 1980s. We know how both episodes ended.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

that may well be true - but remember that now PRC has laid a solid base of border security, roads, railways, shipping, heavy engineering, well funded top univs, arms, industrial espionage, power generation, mineral resource deals, basic to secondary level education and dollar reserve dagger to fuel the productivity and complexity surge from basic to 2nd level.

I expect lots of marginal low end manufacturing will die or migrate to cambodia / vietnam / bangladesh / myanmar but in their place new factories making higher value products like electronics will come up. they are already there...but will expand and soak up the discarded troopers.

we need to clean up our own sorry looking act pronto - its a total circus in the area of large capital intensive projects involving any form of land acquisition or natural resources with EJ/'daleets'/local MPs/Jairam ramesh/Babaji/Rajmata/chinese paid hacks all playing games with the country's future for the sake of souls/votes. ministers and CMs are busy fighting scam charges, digging up dirt on their rivals and helping shell cos and front cos setup by relatives and friends :lol: bag carrier IAS loyalists are also in on it for a slice of the pie. the chinese ruling class is equally corrupt and more ruthless , but they get things done..pie grows bigger...they get fatter.

we do not have enough seats for 500 million IT vity munnas on the ORR ...or better yet eye eye yem trained i-bankers :oops:
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Have to agree with this article in toto, especially with what Ms Choyleva has said. Echoes a large part of what 'ol vina has been saying.

However you left out the important part ..
The sons of Mao insist that they have studied the Japanese debacle closely and will not repeat the error. And I can sell you an ocean-front property in Chengdu.
Exactly. Other underlings of the sons of Mao have been saying on this thread. Well, in addition to the ocean-front property in Chengdu, I throw in the aircraft carrier and 2 squadrons of the JF-17 Bandars being built (all being built in chengdu of course..google for where it is :lol: :lol: ) anchored off your beach house for free.
Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Singha,

I'm a bit peeved. Did you even follow the pages and pages of data posted on this section? :evil:

All of it demonstrates that the only miracle you see is a Panda economy that confiscates/squanders ~$3 Trillion annually while ours saves and invests ~$500 Billion.

If we had $3 Trillion to splurge annually we too would quickly start looking like that. Every villager and NGO and sevak could be effortlessly bought off for such sums. We are in trouble precisely because we can not afford to buy everyone off. How come Navi Mumbai airport went thru so quickly. Precisely because there is enough money to pay everyone off.

We should not fall so easily for the panda paradise H/D story. Most of it appears to be a sham/scam of one sort or another.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

oh dont worry - I was just in a contrarian mood this morning.

so far they have managed a soft landing.....no real macro fears imo....and this new tale of huge gold imports makes me think the Govt itself is stockpiling all the gold it can.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by vina »

so far they have managed a soft landing.....no real macro fears imo.....
There are massive macro fears. My spidey sense is actually tingling. The hedge fund analyst is right. What chinese did is gamble this way.

1) Splurge like there is no tomorrow once the crisis hit the west and spend your way out of trouble

2) Assume a 2 year time frame for the west's trouble to get over

3) The west will stabilize and we can export our way out of trouble like we did earlier and continue business as usual.

While the Chinese did 1) as it is within their control , 2) and 3) are assumptions and built on foundation that the rest of the world will continue business as before.

Now 2 and 3 are not going to happen and the Chinese have already shot the bullet. The bubble has to pop sooner or later and the Chinese are in deep doo-doo of their own making.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by amit »

vina wrote:
so far they have managed a soft landing.....no real macro fears imo.....
There are massive macro fears. My spidey sense is actually tingling. The hedge fund analyst is right. What chinese did is gamble this way.

1) Splurge like there is no tomorrow once the crisis hit the west and spend your way out of trouble

2) Assume a 2 year time frame for the west's trouble to get over

3) The west will stabilize and we can export our way out of trouble like we did earlier and continue business as usual.

While the Chinese did 1) as it is within their control , 2) and 3) are assumptions and built on foundation that the rest of the world will continue business as before.

Now 2 and 3 are not going to happen and the Chinese have already shot the bullet. The bubble has to pop sooner or later and the Chinese are in deep doo-doo of their own making.
In addition to what Vina wrote, Singha Saar needs to read these four paragraphs very carefully to get a sense of what's in store in the medium-term:
China may have hit the "Lewis turning point", named after the Nobel economist Arthur Lewis from St Lucia. It is the moment for each catch-up economy when the supply of cheap labour from the countryside dries up, leading to a surge in industrial wages. That reserve army of 120m Chinese migrants everybody was so worried about four years ago has already dwindled to 25m.

China’s problem is that this is happening just as the aging crisis starts to bite. The number of workers will decline in absolute terms within four years. The society will then tip into precipitous demographic decline. Unlike Japan, it will become old before it is has built a cushion of wealth.

If there is a hard-landing in 2011, China’s reserves of $2.6 trillion – or over $3 trillion if counted fully – will not help much. Professor Michael Pettis from Beijing University says the money cannot be used internally in the economy.

While this fund does offer China external protection, Mr Pettis notes wryly that the only other times in the last century when one country accumulated reserves equal to 5pc to 6pc of global GDP was US in the 1920s, and Japan in the 1980s. We know how both episodes ended.
The problems with soft landings is that its not a one off event. You need to keep on landing softly. Will China be able to do it? Who knows? But the facts are as they are so rational prognosis should be very unlikely.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by JE Menon »

If you had to put a number vina, how many years before China hits the wall, i.e. a recognisable "crisis"?

I hope we have a good action plan for the significant investments that will be re-routed. It should be aimed at rational reception of investment and careful calibration so that we don't fall into the same bubble trap, I suppose. I'm not pessimistic, particularly.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

vina wrote:
so far they have managed a soft landing.....no real macro fears imo.....
There are massive macro fears. My spidey sense is actually tingling. The hedge fund analyst is right. What chinese did is gamble this way.

1) Splurge like there is no tomorrow once the crisis hit the west and spend your way out of trouble

2) Assume a 2 year time frame for the west's trouble to get over

3) The west will stabilize and we can export our way out of trouble like we did earlier and continue business as usual.

While the Chinese did 1) as it is within their control , 2) and 3) are assumptions and built on foundation that the rest of the world will continue business as before.

Now 2 and 3 are not going to happen and the Chinese have already shot the bullet. The bubble has to pop sooner or later and the Chinese are in deep doo-doo of their own making.
PRC can do a forced labor - re cost, retrench and change the consumption behavior.
This is one of their core strengths and PRC will do anything so that they are not trapped in west trouble.

If there is global economic collapse then they will increase the internal consumption and stop their external trade.
That is one of the reasons for the massive commodity imports they are doing for the last 5 years. Copper etc are going thru the roof.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

I see a lot of contradictory pieces of information being thrown about, but the conclusions being drawn is the same - that China is going to collapse.

For example, China needs to continue growing at 8%+ rate (in order to generate enough jobs for unemployed millions). So, it is felt that if China grows at lower rate, then it will collapse.

Now I see another scholarly term being bandied about - 'Lewis turning point'. (Wow, colour me impressed). It says that China has lost surplus labour from 120 million to 25 million. Hellooo, is it only me that noticed that China has CREATED 95 million jobs - THAT'S why its surplus labour pool has dipped. This is no mean achievement.

That means that China does not need to grow at break neck speed any more.

That means that lower growth rate is no longer politically dangerous for CCP. 5% growth rate is no longer a danger.

---------

On top of this, if Chinese wages continue to inflate fast, Chinese products will be priced out of the market. Then the exchange rate controversy will become moot.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by putnanja »

amit wrote:
Sounds impressive until you consider the fact that no amount of money can kick start innovation, something that is needed in large dollops in all the industries listed. The US, Germans and to a lesser extent the Japs are good at this because they spent several decades perfecting a culture that supports and encourages innovation.

But the Chinese? A straight jump from low cost manufacturing to innovation driven technologies by throwing in dollars?

Hmmm it will be interesting to track the progress in this. If the CCP can pull it off then hats off.

Meanwhile another $1.5 trillion will be floating in the economy - I can bet all the factories, headquarters, buildings for the companies who will be operating in these industries will be world beating in terms of size, design and looks! :)
The chinese bought and/or stole the latest technologies from the west. One of the conditions that the CCP insisted was for the western countries to share their technologies. The west assuming that the chinese were honest and would keep their word, shared their technologies on the agreement that it would be used only within china. But the chinese showed their true colors very soon. The major power, telecom, industrial equipment that they make and export to other countries are all borrowed or stolen technologies, with little or no modification. The western companies cannot enforce their claim in chinese courts. Even the power equipment being sold in india at cheap prices, was aquired in similar way. The bullet trains, well the chinese contribution there is similar to the paki green paint contribution to their missiles.

The real question is, how the chinese will build on top of their stolen/acquired technologies. That will decide the future of innovation in China. Many western companies have now woken up to the danger chinese companies pose them, and are keeping their latest technologies close to their chest. I was watching a program recently where some companies manufacture some components totally in US, and ship them to china for assembling with other components, keeping the heart of the system away from the chinese.
Theo_Fidel

Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

I can't get the money supply question out of my mind.

In essence what panda has has done is double pump the economy. Say you force the economy to save Rs 60 out of every Rs 100. Then you turn around and monetize Rs 50 of that saved amount. So now in effect you have Rs 110 created within the system. This is in addition to the Rs 40 of real economy. So just like that you have Rs 150 economy with out doing anything.

Now this happens in normal economies too, except that Rs 50 monetized has to be returned w/ interest so the system is continually sucking liquidity back out. Essentially by not factoring in ROI panda is growing gang busters while ignoring the liabilities. The problem with this system is that it is a Ponzi scheme. As long as there is trust and more and more money is coming in everything works fine. If the growth rate declines to 5% and confidence is lost in the system then look out.

Ponzi schemes always last longer than everyone thinks it is possible. See Madoff, Bernie 2009 for more.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Rishirishi »

Theo_Fidel wrote:I can't get the money supply question out of my mind.

In essence what panda has has done is double pump the economy. Say you force the economy to save Rs 60 out of every Rs 100. Then you turn around and monetize Rs 50 of that saved amount. So now in effect you have Rs 110 created within the system. This is in addition to the Rs 40 of real economy. So just like that you have Rs 150 economy with out doing anything.

Now this happens in normal economies too, except that Rs 50 monetized has to be returned w/ interest so the system is continually sucking liquidity back out. Essentially by not factoring in ROI panda is growing gang busters while ignoring the liabilities. The problem with this system is that it is a Ponzi scheme. As long as there is trust and more and more money is coming in everything works fine. If the growth rate declines to 5% and confidence is lost in the system then look out.

Ponzi schemes always last longer than everyone thinks it is possible. See Madoff, Bernie 2009 for more.
I think you are very right. The savings of the chinease account for 40% of GDP. A great chunk of this stock pile is lent to uneconomical state enterprises. Further there is a huge influx of investment that also drives the economy.

Now if Inflation starts to rise, you may see the chinease starting to withdraw cash and invest in something else. Or the chinease will start to withdraw to use cash to finance old age or what ever.

I have been traveling to China since year 2000 on regular bases. And let me assure you that the Chinease society is actually very free now. Hundred of millions are connected to the net, and people seems to be very well informed. News travels fast. Millions now know English. And worse for the authorities, people are willing to protest and show anger.

For India, a China bust, may actually not be that bad. Firstly it will lead to drop in raw materials, oil prices and other comodities. Indias export products are not as price sensitive.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by KrishG »

abhischekcc wrote:I see a lot of contradictory pieces of information being thrown about, but the conclusions being drawn is the same - that China is going to collapse.

For example, China needs to continue growing at 8%+ rate (in order to generate enough jobs for unemployed millions). So, it is felt that if China grows at lower rate, then it will collapse.

Now I see another scholarly term being bandied about - 'Lewis turning point'. (Wow, colour me impressed). It says that China has lost surplus labour from 120 million to 25 million. Hellooo, is it only me that noticed that China has CREATED 95 million jobs - THAT'S why its surplus labour pool has dipped. This is no mean achievement.

That means that China does not need to grow at break neck speed any more.

That means that lower growth rate is no longer politically dangerous for CCP. 5% growth rate is no longer a danger.

---------

On top of this, if Chinese wages continue to inflate fast, Chinese products will be priced out of the market. Then the exchange rate controversy will become moot.
I don't think that "collapse" would be the right word. Most are predicting a slow-down due to the property bubble bursting.

Also, the problem due to the increasing cost of living and standard of living, the workers would also demand a hike in their pay. Now, most Chinese companies operate with very low profit margins to be competitive. So, they cannot afford to keep increasing the pay because the cost of their product remains largely unaffected by changes in the domestic consumer market as a large part of their products is for exports.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by ashi »

abhischekcc wrote:I see a lot of contradictory pieces of information being thrown about, but the conclusions being drawn is the same - that China is going to collapse.

For example, China needs to continue growing at 8%+ rate (in order to generate enough jobs for unemployed millions). So, it is felt that if China grows at lower rate, then it will collapse.

Now I see another scholarly term being bandied about - 'Lewis turning point'. (Wow, colour me impressed). It says that China has lost surplus labour from 120 million to 25 million. Hellooo, is it only me that noticed that China has CREATED 95 million jobs - THAT'S why its surplus labour pool has dipped. This is no mean achievement.

That means that China does not need to grow at break neck speed any more.

That means that lower growth rate is no longer politically dangerous for CCP. 5% growth rate is no longer a danger.

---------

On top of this, if Chinese wages continue to inflate fast, Chinese products will be priced out of the market. Then the exchange rate controversy will become moot.

I think it is not the chicom's intention to grow at 8% or above. They just constantly outshoot themselves.

http://www.economist.com/node/17493348? ... d=17493348
Policymakers in Beijing do not condone such extreme measures. But they do seem to accept that retuning the economy will take a toll on growth. In their current five-year plan (from 2006 to 2010), they set an annual target of only 7.5%. It is not China’s official policy to grow at double-digit rates.

India still has massive catching up to do in infrastructure (see article). It is not yet clear, with due respect to Indian nationalists, whether India will become the world’s fastest-growing big economy in 2011. But one thing is certain. If it does so, it will have China’s leaders to thank more than its own.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

I wonder how the commie drones on this forum will react to this
China's GDP is "man-made," unreliable: Li Keqiang :mrgreen:

This deserves posting in full:
(Reuters) - China's GDP figures are "man-made" and therefore unreliable, the man who is expected to be the country's next head of government said in 2007, according to U.S. diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

Li Keqiang, head of the Communist Party in northeastern Liaoning province at the time, was unusually candid in his assessment of local economic data at a dinner with then-U.S. Ambassador to China Clark Randt, according to a confidential memo sent after the meeting and published on the WikiLeaks website.

The U.S. cable reported that Li, who is now a vice premier, focused on just three data points to evaluate Liaoning's economy: electricity consumption, rail cargo volume and bank lending.

"By looking at these three figures, Li said he can measure with relative accuracy the speed of economic growth. All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are 'for reference only,' he said smiling," the cable added.

Li is widely expected to succeed Wen Jiabao as premier in early 2013, a position that will put him in charge of policy making in the world's second-biggest economy.

A news official in the Chinese foreign ministry declined to comment on the specific cable and referred to comments last week in which a ministry spokesman called on the United States to resolve issues related to the leaks.

A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy to China was not immediately available.

Chinese economic numbers, especially at the provincial level and lower, have long been viewed with suspicion by analysts.

"That China's GDP is not reliable, especially for local GDP, that is nothing new," said an economist with a foreign bank who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of discussing top national leaders.

"Some of the volume data, such as power and rail freight and even (bank) credit, are interesting because there is less incentive to massage them at the local level. But they reveal only part of the truth, not the entire truth," he said.

"This would be a useful measure for steel and cement production. I'm not sure how well it would measure retail sales."

Li would naturally have been most interested in heavy industry in his stewardship of Liaoning's economy. The province is one of China's top producers of steel, petrochemicals and machinery.

STATS Skeptic

Li has also gone on the record before to ask for more from the government's statisticians.

During a 2009 visit to the National Bureau of Statistics, Li asked whether China calculated GDP on a monthly basis.

Li pressed on when he was told that data was gathered quarterly and that monthly calculations were difficult.

"Do Western nations make monthly calculations?" he asked, according the NBS website.

The U.S. embassy memo, sent on March 15, 2007, described Li as engaging and well informed. It said that he was trying to create a "harmonious society" by providing new housing to the poor and creating jobs for every household.

Li noted public dissatisfaction with education, health care and housing but said that official corruption was the biggest source of anger, the cable said.

He was reported as saying that the most effective way to combat corruption was to create transparent rules and to ensure adequate supervision, while also educating officials.

"Part of this education involves prison tours that force bureaucrats to visit incarcerated officials convicted of graft in order to witness first-hand the consequences of malfeasance," the cable said.

(Reporting by Simon Rabinovitch; Editing by Daniel Magnowski)

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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by DavidD »

abhischekcc wrote:I wonder how the commie drones on this forum will react to this
China's GDP is "man-made," unreliable: Li Keqiang :mrgreen:

This deserves posting in full:
(Reuters) - China's GDP figures are "man-made" and therefore unreliable, the man who is expected to be the country's next head of government said in 2007, according to U.S. diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

Li Keqiang, head of the Communist Party in northeastern Liaoning province at the time, was unusually candid in his assessment of local economic data at a dinner with then-U.S. Ambassador to China Clark Randt, according to a confidential memo sent after the meeting and published on the WikiLeaks website.

The U.S. cable reported that Li, who is now a vice premier, focused on just three data points to evaluate Liaoning's economy: electricity consumption, rail cargo volume and bank lending.

"By looking at these three figures, Li said he can measure with relative accuracy the speed of economic growth. All other figures, especially GDP statistics, are 'for reference only,' he said smiling," the cable added.

Li is widely expected to succeed Wen Jiabao as premier in early 2013, a position that will put him in charge of policy making in the world's second-biggest economy.

A news official in the Chinese foreign ministry declined to comment on the specific cable and referred to comments last week in which a ministry spokesman called on the United States to resolve issues related to the leaks.

A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy to China was not immediately available.

Chinese economic numbers, especially at the provincial level and lower, have long been viewed with suspicion by analysts.

"That China's GDP is not reliable, especially for local GDP, that is nothing new," said an economist with a foreign bank who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of discussing top national leaders.

"Some of the volume data, such as power and rail freight and even (bank) credit, are interesting because there is less incentive to massage them at the local level. But they reveal only part of the truth, not the entire truth," he said.

"This would be a useful measure for steel and cement production. I'm not sure how well it would measure retail sales."

Li would naturally have been most interested in heavy industry in his stewardship of Liaoning's economy. The province is one of China's top producers of steel, petrochemicals and machinery.

STATS Skeptic

Li has also gone on the record before to ask for more from the government's statisticians.

During a 2009 visit to the National Bureau of Statistics, Li asked whether China calculated GDP on a monthly basis.

Li pressed on when he was told that data was gathered quarterly and that monthly calculations were difficult.

"Do Western nations make monthly calculations?" he asked, according the NBS website.

The U.S. embassy memo, sent on March 15, 2007, described Li as engaging and well informed. It said that he was trying to create a "harmonious society" by providing new housing to the poor and creating jobs for every household.

Li noted public dissatisfaction with education, health care and housing but said that official corruption was the biggest source of anger, the cable said.

He was reported as saying that the most effective way to combat corruption was to create transparent rules and to ensure adequate supervision, while also educating officials.

"Part of this education involves prison tours that force bureaucrats to visit incarcerated officials convicted of graft in order to witness first-hand the consequences of malfeasance," the cable said.

(Reporting by Simon Rabinovitch; Editing by Daniel Magnowski)

It seems to me like all Li said was that GDP is not a good indicator of Chinese growth and development. He might have been trying to impress the American ambassador, because China's electricity consumption is pretty much equal to America's, and using that instead of GDP would indicate an even more enormous increase in Chinese growth than the published GDP data would.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by vina »

He might have been trying to impress the American ambassador, because China's electricity consumption is pretty much equal to America's, and using that instead of GDP would indicate an even more enormous increase in Chinese growth than the published GDP data would.
Aiyaah :roll: :roll: !.. The Chinese create a make believe Alice in Wonderland kind of alternate reality and believe that is the truth! :eek: :eek: .

If China consumes as much electricity as the US, some 10 times the steel and cement and uses nearly as much input (except for oil maybe) and produces a 1/3 of the GDP , even though it has say maybe 5 times the population of the US, I would be worried at the tremendous waste, the ultra low ICOR and question the sustainability of the growth model!.

How about a counter example.. A country that has half the population of the US, uses around a 1/2 to a 1/3 or US energy inputs per capita , is a global industrial, technology and eocnomic power and has a per capita GDP nearly equal to the US and infact is right next door to China and irritates it no end (hint.. it is called Japan).
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by DavidD »

BTW, I like Li's "scared straight" tactics with corrupt officials. Unfortunately, I don't think it'll work :lol:
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

Double post
Last edited by abhischekcc on 07 Dec 2010 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

DavidD, did you read the word "unreliable" that Li used for China's GDP numbers?

Why do you feel the need to defend the false numbers when even your own leaders don't do it?

You are sounding more and more like the Iraqi Information Minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf

Here : http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com

He was famous for giving a press conference (during Gulf war 2) asserting that "There are no American tanks in Baghdad", even as Abrams tanks could be seen and filmed in the window behind him.

:mrgreen:

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"China's GDP will grow at 8%+ always, as the Sun rises in Japan"
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Post by DavidD »

abhischekcc wrote:DavidD, did you read the word "unreliable" that Li used for China's GDP numbers?

Why do you feel the need to defend the false numbers when even your own leaders don't do it?

You are sounding more and more like the Iraqi Information Minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf

Here : http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com

He was famous for giving a press conference (during Gulf war 2) asserting that "There are no American tanks in Baghdad", even as Abrams tanks could be seen and filmed in the window behind him.

:mrgreen:

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"China's GDP will grow at 8%+ always, as the Sun rises in Japan"
No I did not, could you quote it for me? Besides, I'm sure the numbers aren't as accurate as those of western nations, but I don't know if it's too high or too low. If the estimates are too high, possibly as a result of local officials pumping things up, but that isn't a big problem other than inaccurate accounting. If it's too low though, possibly as a result of failure to account for the abundance of under the table deals particularly in rural areas, it could be quite a problem. It would indicate that the Chinese government is having even more trouble than reported in containing the overheating economy.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by PrasadZ »

@David:
Besides, I'm sure the numbers aren't as accurate as those of western nations
The numbers arent as good as many eastern nations either, not all of whom are as developed as China btw. What do you think is the reason that a country that can build its own aircraft engines cannot count its GDP ?!

IMO, accurate bean counting needs a bureaucracy (relatively ?) free of governing party influence. The urge to cook up numbers is common to all people, but freedom to criticise allows people to give and to accept negative news.
If it's too low though, possibly as a result of failure to account for the abundance of under the table deals particularly in rural areas, it could be quite a problem. It would indicate that the Chinese government is having even more trouble than reported in containing the overheating economy.
under the table deals are a problem because they indicate the rush of money towards weak assets - an over heating economy is an economy seriously misallocating its resources. the phrase "abundance of under the table deals" somehow conveys the impression that computing a low GDP is a matter of pride (we are so strong we are a little shy to say)
BS, David !

A trade surplus can be caused by an undervalued currency OR by an economy producing goods primarily for external consumption. Japan, germany korea primarily produce for external consumption and run trade surpluses. But this is not as big a problem - consider germany. these guys have portfolio investments abroad mostly east europe so their actions will, long term, lead to better production capacity elsewhere. china's trade surplus buys US treasury bills and buy up commodity sources abroad. there is little to no building of production capacity abroad

For an economic view of how China's overheating economy beggars its neighbor, this link could help http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/swan-songs/
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

PrasadZ wrote:A trade surplus can be caused by an undervalued currency OR by an economy producing goods primarily for external consumption. Japan, germany korea primarily produce for external consumption and run trade surpluses. But this is not as big a problem - consider germany. these guys have portfolio investments abroad mostly east europe so their actions will, long term, lead to better production capacity elsewhere. china's trade surplus buys US treasury bills and buy up commodity sources abroad. there is little to no building of production capacity abroad
I think this is a key point.

No matter what you think of Unkil, Japan, Germany or even Korea they at least make an attempt to stabilize the areas of the world they touch. Make things a little better for the locals. You know take a little responsibility for the world. panda makes no such attempt. Look at their rapaciousness in Africa. Their one USP appears to be a complete lack of ethics. They appear attracted to the most murderous regime in town. As they thing this will get them their way.

panda should keep in mind that they are dependent on the open world maintained by others. So far they have not made the slightest attempt to sacrifice for keeping the world open.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Cross posting to annoy the Panda trolls.

These are profitable rates in India.

http://www.icicibank.com/interest-rates.html#fd

Banks fixed deposit rates.
1 year to 389 days 7.25% 7.75%
2 years to 789 days 7.50% 8.00%
5 years upto 10 years 8.25% 8.75%
And in Panda paradise.

http://www.icbc.com.cn/icbc/financial%2 ... efault.htm
1-year 1.71
3-year 1.98
5-year 2.25
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Katare »

Theo,
These Figure needs to be normalized for inflation to make any sense or comparison. With type of inflation we have in India those rates are no where profitable at best they can beat inflation in short-mid term. Chinese low rates are an effort to induce ultra conservative Chinese to consume more.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Katare »

Today it boasts of largest banks in the world, largest consumer and producer of almost all products and it is in its way to build the best infrastructure in the world for its citizens. Add its stellar social indicators (education, health, food consumption, sanitation etc) and I do not see how people can still keep saying the same thing- GDP is growth is under reported.

In 2005 or so we heard that it has build so many roads and extra beltways but they are empty with no vehicle/drivers to drive on them. Today they are making 20mil vehicle and reporting traffic jams that are 100-150 KM long.

The new ones are -
China is buying cars from GM and VW and storing them in empty parking lots somewhere to prop-up GDP
Chinese builders are making high rises but no one is buying or living in them but still the prices are 20-22 times the annual earnings while US had a housing bubble at 7 times the earning.


May be the old western rule based logical economic principles don't apply on China. It is not a govt but mai-baap with purpose and flexibility unmatched by any nation or govt in the past. Although it works knowing well that a sharp dagger hangs on its head all the time and somehow it manages to use it for motivation.

I think Gandhi ji’s theory of “first they will ignore you than they’ll ridicule you and than they’ll attack you and than you’ll win” cycle is taking its course.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Katare,

As far as inflation goes the official rate is 4%. Even this is above the interest payout. The unofficial inflation is anywhere from 8%-12%.

I have the greatest affection for the chinese people. Incredibly hard workers and capable. It is the system that has reduced them to slave labor we rail against. I think they can do much better under a democratic system. No one is stating that their growth does not exist. Not sure where you get that from. The argument is over the source of that growth. My contention is that the people are being take for a ride and exploited to the hilt to pad the wallets of the party and create H/D. At some point they will turn around and realize that they own nothing of what they see.

As long as this system exists it is a danger to the world.

The secondary argument is to remind the easily impressed who pant after such growth. No doubt we will get there, the question is how. I argue for staying the course with the present system, with reforms, and increase the savings/investment ratio above 40%. There are others who think our poor are dirty and a liability and we should raze everything to the ground.

The only thing that matters is money.

Another thing, I've been spending my use or lose it vacation to go through google earth and actually look at the towns panda is building. Let me tell you I'm not particularly impressed. Endless rows of 30 storey apartment blocks is the future for the chinese people. Every square foot is paved, asphalted or concreted up. They have not been consulted or involved in this decision.

Take a look at the new developments in India. For instance on the East side of Lucknow town. It is a lot more organic and livable. Apartment blocks and houses mix together with their own individual character. The asphalt and concrete is coming too. The roads are a hundred times better than even 10 years ago. Looking at Google Earth, we seriously underestimate the construction going on in India. I was looking at Kolhapur and what looks like an entire new town, larger than the old, has sprung up on the south west side with neat rows of houses and schools and parks and streets. You've never seen a picture because our media has not been sent there on H/D trips like panda organizes.

More on this in the India Economy thread.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by DavidD »

Car sales grow steadily in China, seems to have settled down to a more "normal" rate since last year's stimulus-induced buying. Probably will slow down to an actually normal rate by next year or so:

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001 ... 25289.html
China is expected to continue its global lead in auto sales, after it exceeded the US last year. Figures from the China Passenger Car Association shows domestic passenger car sales jumped to a record high in November, climbing 27 percent from a year ago. The most popular types are sports utility vehicles and multi-purpose vehicles.

Shanghai General Motors and Shanghai Volkswagen are expected to sell the most cars in China this year. Both of them have seen their monthly sales exceeded 100 thousand units in November.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by rohiths »

Cross posting in full from wikileaks
Panda's scientific research.
If we dont improve our research capabilities, a day will not be far when we have to really quiver in our dhotis :((
1.(SBU) Summary: In response to an invitation by the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS), ESTH officer traveled to Hefei, Anhui Province, in December 2009 to visit several Chinese government-sponsored scientific institutions. During this time, ESTH officer learned of the below information through official presentations, personal observation, and informal/discreet conversations with CAS staff members. Most significantly, the Institute of Plasma Physics continues to conduct research on how to use nuclear fusion as a sustainable means to produce energy. At the same time, China is expanding its use of nuclear fission as an energy source and plans to open at least 70 nuclear fission power Qnts within the next 10 years. In 2009, CAS's Institute of Plasma Physics budget was USD$20 million. Additionally, other CAS institutes are conducting research in biometrics, computational physics and material science, nanoscience and nanomaterials, soft-matter physics, environmental spectrometry, fiber optic wave-length division multiplexing, quantum communications, superconductors and spintroncis, and cognitive sciences. End Summary.

Institute of Plasma Physics - Nuclear Research

------------------------------------

2. (C) In mid-December 2009, the Chinese Academy of Science (CAS) Institute of Plasma Physics (IPP) in Hefei, Anhui Province was preparing for another cycle of experiments with its Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST). EAST was designed to be a controlled nuclear fusion tokamark reactor with superconductive toroidal and poloidal field magnets and a D-shaped cross-section. One of the experimental goals of this device was to prove that a nuclear fusion reaction can be sustained indefinitely, at high enough temperatures, to produce energy in a cost-effective way. In 2009, IIP successfully maintained a 10 million degree Celsius plasma nuclear fusion reaction for 400 seconds. IIP also successfully maintained a 100 million degree Celsius plasma nuclear fusion reaction for 60 seconds. One of IIP's immediate goals is now to maintain a 100 million degree Celsius plasma nuclear fusion reaction for over 400 seconds. Currently, IIP is also conducting research into hybrid fusion-fission nuclear reactors that may be able to sustain nuclear reactions indefinitely, and at sufficient temperatures, to cost-effectively produce energy. IIP officials stated that China has the explicit goal of building at least 70 nuclear fission power plants within the next 10 years. IIP scientists claimed current Chinese nuclear energy production efforts use Uranium 235, but research is being done to make Uranium 238 a feasible alternative. IIP's 2009 budget was USD$20 million - a two-fold increase over the previous year - and IIP leadership expects their budget to increase again in 2010. Roughly one-third of IIP's budget comes from China's National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC); another one-third of the budget comes directly from CAS, and the final one-third comes from China's Ministry of Science and Technology (MOST). According to IIP leadership, NDRC has been very laissez-faire in its oversight, but MOST tends to micromanage projects and the expenditure of money. (COMMENT: Based on personal/discreet conversations with IIP staff members, the relationship between CAS and MOST is strained due to officious and annoying oversight insisted upon by MOST. IIP scientists much prefer the NDRC management style and wish more of their funding could come from this body rather than MOST. END COMMENT) IIP has roughly 450 full-time staff members, over 400 graduate students, and approximately 100 contractors under its purview.

Institute of Intelligent Machines - Biometrics Research

------------------------------------

3. (C) The Chinese Academy of Science (CAS) Institute of Intelligent Machines (IIM) in Hefei has developed a biometrics device that uses a person's pace to identify them. The device measure weight and two-dimensional sheer forces applied by a person's foot during walking to create a uniquely identifiable biometrics profile. The device can be covertly installed in a floor and is able to collect

BEIJING 00000263 002.4 OF 002

biometrics data on individuals covertly without their knowledge. When questioned about the device's potential applications, IIM officials stated the device was being used by "secret" customers and was not available on the commercial market. IIM also said they were involved with China's "Program 863." (COMMENT: Program 863 is China's national high-technology development plan that includes both military and civilian technology development programs; therefore, it is likely the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is one of the customers for whom this biometrics device was developed. END COMMENT)

Institute of Solid State Physics - Nanotechnology Research

------------------------------------

4. (C) In mid-December 2009, the Chinese Academy of Science (CAS) Institute of Solid State Physics (ISSP) in Hefei was conducting research in the fields of computational physics and material science, nanomaterials, and soft-matter physics. ISSP's 2009 budget was roughly $6 million (USD). ISSP's top priority projects are: one-dimensional nanomaterials, spin and charge research using perovskite manganese oxides, and the design and preparation of high-dampening materials. ISSP also conducts research on nanomaterials and nanostructures for China's "Program 973." (NOTE: Program 973 is China's national plan for improving basic scientific research and development. END NOTE)

Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics - Spectrometry & Fiber Optic Research

------------------------------------

5. (C) In mid-December 2009, the Chinese Academy of Science (CAS) Institute of Optics and Fine Mechanics (IOFM) in Hefei was modifying environmental spectrometry technology to detect TATP explosives for use in counter-terrorism efforts. IOFM was also conducting fiber optic research on wave-length division multiplexing (WDM) technologies using pulsed and continuous laser sources at both single-mode and multi-mode wavelengths. A cursory walk through one of their labs revealed that IOFM was specifically conducting experiments in the 980-1150 nanometer range, and that they were conducting experiments using hydrogen-filled fiber optic communication lines. (COMMENT: Hydrogen-filled fiber optic lines are technologically challenging to manufacture, but provide many advantages; one of which is increased security and protection from tampering. END COMMENT)

University of Science and Technology of China - Organization & Research

------------------------------------

6. (C) In mid-December 2009, the University of Science and Technology of China (USTC) in Hefei had academic programs focusing on Math, Physics, Chemistry, Life Sciences, Nuclear Science, Engineering, Computer Science, Information Technology, Management, Humanities, and a department dedicated to the development of gifted young people. USTC has 37,000 staff and 40,000 graduate students. USTC oversees two national laboratories: the National Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory and the Hefei National Laboratory for Physical Science at the Microscale (HFNL). HFNL has 95 faculty members and roughly 400 graduate students. HFNL research focuses on quantum communication, nanoscience, superconductors, spintronics, and cognitive sciences. In the area of quantum communication, HFNL was conducting research in quantum teleportation and free space quantum cryptography that scientists hope will result in "totally secure" communications. USTC also oversees China's "Program 178," although they did not describe the nature of this program. (COMMENT: A cursory walk through their labs seemed to indicate they had already succeeded in single-particle quantum teleportation and are now trying to conduct dual-particle quantum teleportation. END COMMENT) HUNTSMAN
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by amit »

rohiths wrote:If we dont improve our research capabilities, a day will not be far when we have to really quiver in our dhotis :((
Boss it seems you're already quivering in your dhoti (that is assuming you don't have a motive in your post). How can you say this without comparing what's being done in India with what wikileaks has published.

I think you should remember that these are all running notes taken by different US officials and are not scientific papers.

That being said, of course China is making a lot of advances in research but that doesn't mean India is not doing the same either.

IMO this defeatist attitude is the single biggest weakness we've got.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

70 nuke plants in the ten years is 1 every two months - bullsh!t.

Why does China keep making promises like this?

I still remember them claiming they will start 100 IIT level institutes in 10 years :eek:
Where are these institutes?
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Katare »

Abhi,
What is such a big deal about building a Nuclear plant every 2 months? They are building full size (1000MW) thermal plants at the rate of 1/week. Nobody thought it was possible leave aside sustainable for years.

Why is it a promise? It is assesment of a low level US diplomat not a claim or promise of Chinese?
Why would Chines try to immulate IIT's? They already have much bigger, better funded and better rated universities.

I think Our plans of getting 100,000MW (20+% of total) by 2050 or 20,000MW by 2020 are equally ambitious. If India & China wants to get to even 50% consumption level of OECD in next 50 years. They'll have to build plants like these at the rate of 1 a month or better. There is no other way, our PM Shri MMS ji has insured India's energy security for that reason only.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Prem »

Chinese Property Shares Sink on Overpriced Home Prices
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/inves ... /19753275/
News that a major Chinese think tank, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, believes that real estate prices are overpriced to the tune of nearly 30% took the property sector by storm today. The organization released its annual report saying that in five of the 35 cities they investigated, property is selling for more than 50% of what it should be, while homes in another 11 cities are selling for 30% to 50% above their actual value. According to China Economic Net, this puts home ownership out of reach for about 85% of urban Chinese families since wages just aren't keeping up with the skyrocketing real estate market. This is right in line with what locals are reporting. According to one expat, home prices in her swanky Beijing neighborhood are out of sight, and locals seem to be competing to pay even more to flaunt their wealth.An analyst with China Real Estate Information Corporation told China Economic Net that, "The central government should maintain its tough stance to curb property speculation over the coming year to help raise buyers' affordability." Lower prices would have a direct impact on developers' profits, and today Poly Real Estate tumbled 4.5%, China Vanke slumped 3.8% and Gemdale fell 2%.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wrdos »

Paying Bribe, an international comparison
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailycha ... 12/bribery
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by vina »

What is such a big deal about building a Nuclear plant every 2 months? They are building full size (1000MW) thermal plants at the rate of 1/week. Nobody thought it was possible leave aside sustainable for years.
Err. A kerfluffle there is that Nukes are lot more capital intensive, while fossil fueled ones are not (the opportunity and environmental costs of the chinese building crap, burning crap and not giving a crap don't enter the picture).

Point is, this kind of gigantism is the key strengths of command / totalitarian regimes. Witness the impressive build up of dams, gigantic structures ,steel plants and cap goods in the early years of the communist revolution in the Soviet Union (1920 onwards) ..

This building one thermal plant a week is right along the lines of what happened in the Soviet Union. They got orders to build anti aircraft missile silos in one particular year and nearly a year's worth of cement production went into those silos.

And yes.. Building out a 1000MW thermal plant a week all over the place is not sustainable. Remember air quality in China, pollution in China and of course, the traffic jams all over China despite massive road construction!

There is a cautionary tale in that . Yes GDP gets a massive boost if you build 1 thermal power plant per week and build out the railways and roads to support it and also produce more steel than the next 10 largest producers combined. But that could be a chimera. When the SU collapsed, GDP shrunk by close to 40 to 50%, why , because the SU was producing all kinds of "wrong" things for which there is no market outside a command economy.. and yes , one of the things that shrunk was steel and heavy industry capacity.

Whether they realize it or not, Chinese need a more sustainable growth model than the investment driven one. The law of diminishing returns has set in for that long ago for the Chinese (In India it is opposite, we are at the bottom of that curve and are under invested, we need to climb the investment growth cycle with a vengeance) and no the answer for that is NOT to build 1 Nuke 1000MW plant a week , in the coal plants already in place.
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by wrdos »

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20101210D09JFA06.htm

China New-Car Sales To Break Global Record In '10
BEIJING (Nikkei)--More new automobiles are expected to be sold in China this year than have ever been sold in any nation ever in a calendar year, beating the current record of 17.4 million units from 2000 in the U.S.

New-car sales in China will jump about 30% to 18 million units this year, according to an estimate released Thursday by the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers. China is certain to top the U.S. as the largest automobile market for the second straight year.

A total of 16.39 million new cars were sold in China over the first eleven months of the year, up 34.1% on the year. Car ownership has grown not only in coastal areas such as Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, but also in small and midsize cities in the nation's interior. A strong appetite among the middle class for cars is widely expected to push the sales figure above 20 million units in 2011.

Congestion has become a serious issue across the country because road construction has not kept up with the sharp increase in motorists. Traffic accidents and pollution are other problems that have cropped up.

In the U.S., 10.44 million new automobiles were sold during the January-November period. The figure totaled 4.67 million in Japan.

(The Nikkei Dec. 10 morning edition)
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by Theo_Fidel »

vina wrote:Whether they realize it or not, Chinese need a more sustainable growth model than the investment driven one. The law of diminishing returns has set in for that long ago for the Chinese (In India it is opposite, we are at the bottom of that curve and are under invested, we need to climb the investment growth cycle with a vengeance) and no the answer for that is NOT to build 1 Nuke 1000MW plant a week , in the coal plants already in place.
Wellll... ..the plan in India is to have 60,000 MW of nuke power by 2030. I would have discounted this as day dreaming earlier, but with all the recent approvals and clearances I think there is quite a bit of determination to make this happen. This works out to 500 MW, about one reactor, every two months.

But in any case I was reading this report by McKinsey about savings and investment required.

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publication ... /index.asp

Their case is that China and India havn't even begun to make the investments needed. In fact India needs to invest at 40% of GDP, or averaging $500 Billion for infrastructure alone over the next 30 years just to keep growth going. Same for China. Staggered me.

see chart below. Courtesy Mckinsey.

Image
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Re: PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

Post by ashi »

China Beats Out Finland for Top Marks in Education
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... z17SxWjEQx
The rise of China as an economic and political juggernaut has become a familiar refrain, but now there's another area in which the Chinese are suddenly emerging as a world power: education.

In the latest Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) comparative survey of the academic performance of 15-year-olds around the world — an authoritative study released every three years — Chinese teenagers from Shanghai far outscored their international peers in all three subject matters that were tested last year: reading, math and science.
Even Finland and Korea, two countries that in recent years have been at the pinnacle of international education, were left in the dust with average scores that were considerably behind those of the Shanghai teenagers. And the stunning performance was confirmed by the results of Chinese students in Hong Kong, who came second in math and science and ranked fourth in reading.
"The stunning success of Shanghai-China, which tops every league table in this assessment by a clear margin, shows what can be achieved with moderate economic resources and in a diverse social context," said OECD secretary general Angel Gurria in the report. The big question now is whether the Shanghai and Hong Kong results can be repeated across China as it emerges as a superpower.
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