Indian Military Aviation

[Kartik]

I have read it before Kartik, but went through it again to make sure I was not forgetting something. Nothing there that suggests a quantum leap over what the IAF will get in the same timeframe. However, as impressive as the M2k-5/9 is (and we don't know for sure what we are getting - is the the ICMS 2 or 3 or IMEWs?, Scalp? Hammer?), none of this is going to sound too impressive in 10, even 5 years. Once the MRCA and Tejas Mk2 start coming in, they will doubtless have all these features and more.

It would have been worth it perhaps 3-5 years ago, but now we can expect these birds to start coming in around the same time as the ones mentioned above, to what end? This capability will not allow us any significant advantage over the current threats, it comes in too late for that. Even worse, 15-20 years later, everything that seems impressive on the M2k-5/9 will sound rather obsolete but India will be stuck with this and the dollars sunk in it for the remainder of the M2ks lifespan. Rather save the $s, go with a cheaper upg. and buy more MRCA.

A simple LUSH type upgrade will be good enough - EL-2032/Derby along with Dash/PYthon are not much different from Topsight/Mica. I'd wager that adding the Astra to this bird would be a lot cheaper than trying that with an RDY. Even if the hps are not increased to 9, so be it. A little less exotic perhaps but much cheaper and rather effective. Even the French themselves did not opt for an uber M2k-5 upgrade ala the ARabs and went with something more modest since they knew that the Rafale (a far more potent a/c) was on its way. India is in a similar position - after 2015, almost everything that comes in will be well ahead of the M2k-5. In this situation, something similar to a cheaper and almost equally good Israeli upg should be enough.

The only capability that I really like, and it is not there in the article you linked, is the MIca IIR - that is special, and perhaps it will make the whole thing worthwhile. ADmittedly, there are other aspects to such upgrades - OEM support etc, which may hamper uptimes. In that sense, the French option might be a necessary expense.
But damned if it is not pricey!

CM

Just look at the threats that the IAF faces today and will face 10-15 years from now. There is the new F-16 Block 50, F-16 MLU'ed to close to Block 50 standards and JF-17 of the PAF, there are the J-11 and J-10s of the PLAAF and these are the main threats. I don't see how the Mirage-2000-5 cannot adequately handle any of these threats for the duration that they exist. After all, they won't be going un-supported anyway, with AWACS support in most cases and maybe even Su-30MKIs supporting them since there will be 280 of them inducted by the time the Mirage-2000s are fully upgraded.

I'd like to see someone tell me how exactly the F-16 Block 50 or the JF-17 cannot be tackled by a Mirage-2000-5 with all the bells and whistles that it is supposed to get. And also point out which other aircraft apart from the Su-30MKI and the MiG-29UPG and Tejas Mk1/2 can do so at significant distances from their home bases. the IAF is obviously happy enough with them to want to keep them going till they can last, and without compromising on their fighting qualities by going for a piecemeal upgrade.

An Israeli upgrade with Elta 2032/Derby/Python-5 would've been handy if we couldn't afford this upgrade, but it would take more time for the Israelis to develop all the required solutions and then start upgrading them. And I doubt that it would've been as affective as the one that the French are offering. The Astra is nowhere near being operational so hoping that it will become the Mirage's main BVR weapon is a bit risky.

BTW, the French did upgrade 37 of their Mirage-2000Cs to the -5 standard, which is close to what the IAF is getting.

[Cain Marko]

Just look at the threats that the IAF faces today and will face 10-15 years from now. There is the new F-16 Block 50, F-16 MLU'ed to close to Block 50 standards and JF-17 of the PAF, there are the J-11 and J-10s of the PLAAF and these are the main threats. I don't see how the Mirage-2000-5 cannot adequately handle any of these threats for the duration that they exist. After all, they won't be going un-supported anyway, with AWACS support in most cases and maybe even Su-30MKIs supporting them since there will be 280 of them inducted by the time the Mirage-2000s are fully upgraded.

I'd like to see someone tell me how exactly the F-16 Block 50 or the JF-17 cannot be tackled by a Mirage-2000-5 with all the bells and whistles that it is supposed to get. And also point out which other aircraft apart from the Su-30MKI and the MiG-29UPG and Tejas Mk1/2 can do so at significant distances from their home bases. the IAF is obviously happy enough with them to want to keep them going till they can last, and without compromising on their fighting qualities by going for a piecemeal upgrade.

Kartik, look at the timelines for the M2K-5; by the time it starts coming in around 2015, the existing threat scenario will certainly have upped. Today is one thing, I'll wager that 10 years down the road the scenario is quite another. The Chinese esp. seem to be on the threshold of some top notch stuff - AESA variants of the J10/J11 are already doing the rounds (and if expereince teaches us something, they may come into service v.soon). The M2ks will be hard up. Although the PAF is not as much a threat, by 2020 such tech might find its way into PAF inventory as well. Also, an AESA upg. for the 16s from their sugar daddy down the road cannot be discounted either. As you point out, the M2k is expected to last another 25 years - 2035+ I daresay that by 2020-25 (let alone post 2025), the M2k will be hardpressed (perhaps even earlier), and even a small upg. via the French will cost bitter amounts. Rather just do a minimum upg. flog the birds and go with something that will be supported by OEM - MRCA/Tejas.

An Israeli upgrade with Elta 2032/Derby/Python-5 would've been handy if we couldn't afford this upgrade, but it would take more time for the Israelis to develop all the required solutions and then start upgrading them. And I doubt that it would've been as affective as the one that the French are offering. The Astra is nowhere near being operational so hoping that it will become the Mirage's main BVR weapon is a bit risky.

The alternative route is attractive because the money saved could possibly be used elsewhere and because the M2k-5 upg. does not really offer anything substantially over a similar present day upg via Israel or over what std. F-16/MiG-29 MLUs offer. For the price, one would hope that the tech offered provides an edge 15 years later, which it clearly will not. Or does the IAF upgrade one more time? That kind of $s should be spent not only on buffing up in the short term, but also ensuring that the muscle stays in the long run.

BTW, the French did upgrade 37 of their Mirage-2000Cs to the -5 standard, which is close to what the IAF is getting.

From the very article you posted Kartik, it is evident that the AdlA M2k-5s never really went the whole hog - plus when did they do that upgrade? 15-20 years ago. My whole point was - they knew something much better was right around the corner (as does India), and they prudently went with a modest upg.

The French Air Force has preferred to keep the self-protection system already employed on the Mirage 2000 DA. An option chosen for both economic and technical reasons, namely standardising the equipment fitted in the interceptor fleet, and rationalising pilot-training. The current system, delivered at the beginning of the 1980s, comprises a Serval radar warning detector, a Sabre jammer and Spirale decoy launchers. It has undergone modifications comparable to those made to the ICMS to render it compatible with the new weapon system.

No doubt the M2k-5/9 that the UAE sports is indeed a top notch system - competitive in A2A against any F-16 blk-50 and MiG-29SMT, but I am not so certain that the exhorbitant amount spent is worth getting something that is merely "competitive". Might as well have upgraded via Israel.

CM

[suryag]

Any word on sitara ioc ? we were about to do some spin tests

[Juggi G]

[Juggi G]

Defence ministry talks deal with Russian firm to overcome MiG shortfall
Daily News & Analysis

[shukla]

Textron wins Indian sensor fused weapons contract
Defenseworld

The Indian Air Force(IAF) will soon receive one of the most lethal bombs in the world, the CBU-105 sensor fused weapon as the U.S. has cleared the sale of 510 of them to the IAF by awarding a $257.7 million contract to Textron Systems Corp., under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program. The Textron contract was announced yesterday which means the Indo-U.S. deal for the same must have been inked sometimes earlier this year.

India had requested the sale of 510 sensor fused bombs, 19 CBU-105 integration test assets and associated equipment in 2008. At that time the cost of the deal was estimated at $375 million. The U.S. Defence and Security Cooperation Agency had then told the U.S. Congress that the sensor fused weapons would help India “to enhance its defensive ability to counter ground-armored threats. The missiles will asssit the IAF to develop and enhance standardization and operational ability with the U.S”.

India had sought offsets under this contract but it not yet clear if the same was agreed to as the technology is said to be a closely guarded U.S. secret with only close allies such as Korea and Israel receiving the same. The half-ton CBU-105 will most probably be launched from a heavy aircraft such as the SU-30MKI. First used during the 2003 Iraq war, the CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapon releases computer controlled and radar equipped submunitions that hunt for tanks below and destroy them. The CBU-105 can be used to attack formations of tanks or armoured vehicles. When dropped on an airfield it can cause extensive damage to the parked aircraft and runway.

The CBU-105 carries ten submunitions. Each of these uses a parachute to slowly descend and seek out armored vehicles or tanks . If one is spotted, the guidance system maneuvers the submunition towards the vehicle and fires a shaped charge that is basically a bolt of molten metal travelling at high speed which penetrates the top armor of the vehicle damaging the insides. If the submunition radar does not spot a tank or other armored vehicle, it attacks any vehicle within a hundred meters or so. If there are no vehicles, the submunition detonates on the ground.

[Singha]

I guess someone was reading Ahuja sir's scenario story of ZTZ99's flooding down the "divisional MSRs" from central tibet.

good to hear the wheels are finally moving.

[nrshah]

Cain,

All your arguments are based on high price of upgrade of M2K. As I understand you are ok with enhanced capabilities but the cost of such enhancement is not comfortable...

However, it is too early to speculate on that.. As Kartik pointed in one his previous post, we dont know if the cost 2.1Bn Usd includes cost of weapons (MICA and others) or not... If it does, a handsome portion of the cost will be to buy new weapons... Again going by Kartik's estimate around 750 Mn USD for 500 missiles (10 per aircraft), It will be balance 1.35Bn USD for upgrade, i.e., 26Mn USD per aircraft, which to me it good for the capabilities of aircraft... We cannot get anything at this price now which is more than a match to anything our adversaries can through at us in next 10 years (20 years in case of adversary in the west).

Although, fulcrum upgrades are still cheaper (Around 960 mn usd for 60 birds--- 16 mn usd per a/c), we all know french equipment are any day costly...It is our decision to buy them (again compare the price of Rafale and Mig 35)

Besides, LUSH upgrade of Sea harriers cannot be taken as precedent for M2K as when LUSH were thought of, it was pretty clear that they will be retired in next 5 years (mig 29K was already on order and deliveries were expected in very near future... Also,the carrier itself was slated to be retired, however, things did not worked out as expected -- Although that is different matter)

The same cannot be said for M2k... Although we will be getting MMRCA / Tejas, still we cannot retire M2k as we already are struggling with numbers and will have minimum healthy numbers only by 2022 (mirage included here as well)... Under such circumstance, it will be criminal not to upgrade them to max potential... That is my view ofcourse

[Neerajsoman]

The cost of weapons will only be justified if the weapons are compatible across the IAF and Navy fleet. The stupidity of managing complex stores is catching up with the IAF.

It is expensive enough to have separate munitions for French, Russian and UK origin aircraft (the Jaguar mariatime strike aircraft in particular) - it would be even more idiotic if we went in for American aircraft and had to add another layer of tactical inflexibility, when spending so much on French origin munitions for the M2k upgrade. Either that, or BDL needs to integrate these munitions systems so they will work across the fleet - hard-point adapters and software solutions.

[Cain Marko]

Cain,

All your arguments are based on high price of upgrade of M2K. As I understand you are ok with enhanced capabilities but the cost of such enhancement is not comfortable...
However, it is too early to speculate on that.. As Kartik pointed in one his previous post, we dont know if the cost 2.1Bn Usd includes cost of weapons (MICA and others) or not... If it does, a handsome portion of the cost will be to buy new weapons... Again going by Kartik's estimate around 750 Mn USD for 500 missiles (10 per aircraft),

And what is the price? Is it firm at 2.1 billion? Weren't there recent articles suggesting something much higher - $ 3.3 billion? Wouldn't Derby/PYthon be much cheaper? At this point in time very little is known, and from that little - the deal does come across as pricey -weapons or not. I recall people whining about the new MKI deal as "price gouging" and what not when it came at a similar price - Rs. 15000 cr. And now all of a sudden it is heaven sent manna to merely upgrade old aircraft for the same price? I admire the Mirage/Mica/Scalp combo, but that is ridiculous. The entire MKI upgrade is proposed at INR 11000 crore. So, I am rather skeptical and it brings me back to my original point - the deal has not yet been signed; I am obviously not the only one who thinks this is a rather hefty price!

It will be balance 1.35Bn USD for upgrade, i.e., 26Mn USD per aircraft, which to me it good for the capabilities of aircraft... We cannot get anything at this price now which is more than a match to anything our adversaries can through at us in next 10 years (20 years in case of adversary in the west).

Are you certain we cannot get anything at cheaper prices? What about that Israeli option? Invest $ 1 odd billion towards getting a LUMP (as Philip has pointed out), use the rest to procure more MRCA - it probably will give you a good 15 extra ultra sophisticated MRCA in that much OR extra Tejas Mk2 OR even Extra MiG-29K/M. IOWs, it matters not if the upg is not that expensive and the bloody weapons are - the ultimate price does. Damned if a combo of Israeli weapons won't give it similar capability - although admittedly, the Mica IIR is rather tempting.

Besides, LUSH upgrade of Sea harriers cannot be taken as precedent for M2K as when LUSH were thought of, it was pretty clear that they will be retired in next 5 years (mig 29K was already on order and deliveries were expected in very near future... Also,the carrier itself was slated to be retired, however, things did not worked out as expected -- Although that is different matter. The same cannot be said for M2k... Although we will be getting MMRCA / Tejas, still we cannot retire M2k as we already are struggling with numbers and will have minimum healthy numbers only by 2022 (mirage included here as well)... Under such circumstance, it will be criminal not to upgrade them to max potential... That is my view ofcourse

But sir, that is precisely my point - the LUSH upgrade does not seem that limited either. Afterall, it did see some changes to the pit, a new radar, a new BVR capability, and an EW suite to go with it, and a few derbys as well. Sure, the M2k-5 upg is more extensive but the end result, and the biggest capability jump is in acquiring BVR ability. There seems to be absolutely no noise about something exotic like Scalp or Hammer or Apache. Nor is there anything in the upg that makes it earth shattering - in 10 years the tech gained will not stay competitive against uber chinese threat. Remember, both the French and the UAE are already looking well beyond the M2k-5, and for the most part India is too - the MKI even in its current form uses tech that is beyond the M2k-5, in its next avatar it will be a gen ahead, the MRCA as well, the Tejas too is similarly playing with technology that is ahead of the M2k-5/9, and what to say of the Pakfa?

ACtually here is an idea - and I can see why they were talking of the RDY-3/RC-400 type upg. The Israelis option is not the only one. The French can obviously offer a ltd upgrade too - why not? the RDY-3 allows for BVR capability via Mica. Moreover if there is loose change, perhaps a quick deal for the Qatari M2ks could also be made? Commonality enough in weapons and systems this way, increase numbers too!.

CM

[Kartik]

Kartik, look at the timelines for the M2K-5; by the time it starts coming in around 2015, the existing threat scenario will certainly have upped. Today is one thing, I'll wager that 10 years down the road the scenario is quite another. The Chinese esp. seem to be on the threshold of some top notch stuff - AESA variants of the J10/J11 are already doing the rounds (and if expereince teaches us something, they may come into service v.soon). The M2ks will be hard up. Although the PAF is not as much a threat, by 2020 such tech might find its way into PAF inventory as well. Also, an AESA upg. for the 16s from their sugar daddy down the road cannot be discounted either. As you point out, the M2k is expected to last another 25 years - 2035+ I daresay that by 2020-25 (let alone post 2025), the M2k will be hardpressed (perhaps even earlier), and even a small upg. via the French will cost bitter amounts. Rather just do a minimum upg. flog the birds and go with something that will be supported by OEM - MRCA/Tejas.

If that is the case then what is the IN doing with N-LCA and MiG-29K and what is the IAF doing with the MiG-29UPG with its Zhuk-ME2 radar? They're all mechanically scanned array equipped fighters that are firmly around the Mirage-2000-5 mark technology wise, not better in any respect. There may be proliferation of AESA equipped J-10s and J-11 but overnight the entire PLAAF will not become AESA equipped. the IAF will get other MRCA and Su-30MKI upgrades with AESA and those should form the tip of the IAF's spear. But the rest of the bulwark has to be strong too, capable of tackling the PAF in both defensive and offensive situations. A half-hearted upgrade of the Mirages will leave them at a disadvantage and when even Jaguars and MiG-27s are getting firm upgrades, I still don't see how spending a few hundred million extra is bad considering the situation.

Regarding RACR and SABR upgrades to existing PAF fighters, they've just contracted for upgrades to their entire F-16A/B fleet with APG-68(V)9 radars. I doubt they have the funding to go for new AESA radars for the remaining years left on the F-16s.

My guess is that the Mirages will last 15-20 years and will start being retired by then with the oldest airframes going out and then the newer ones consolidated into 1-2 squadrons and finally retired 20 years from now. So yes, 2025-2030 period they'll be gone. But there will not be any more upgrades for the duration of their lives unless the IAF runs into fleet expansion troubles during that phase. If that happens, it can be seen at that time. But these Mirages have to be able to tackle most of PAF and majority of PLAAF threats out till 2025 at least.

The alternative route is attractive because the money saved could possibly be used elsewhere and because the M2k-5 upg. does not really offer anything substantially over a similar present day upg via Israel or over what std. F-16/MiG-29 MLUs offer. For the price, one would hope that the tech offered provides an edge 15 years later, which it clearly will not. Or does the IAF upgrade one more time? That kind of $s should be spent not only on buffing up in the short term, but also ensuring that the muscle stays in the long run.

How much money would be saved? is there even a figure out there for how much the Israeli upgrade was going to cost and how much the weapons that would need to be purchased were going to cost? Its not like the Israelis offered to upgrade the Mirages at $15 million each to full spec Mirage-2000-5 capabilities alongwith all the new stocks of WVR and BVR missiles. And what about the spares for the aircraft later on? With the OEM pissed off (and naturally so since every OEM generally expects that its product will be upgrade by it) they will jack up maintenance contract prices and then will the Israelis provide those too? I bet they cant.

From the very article you posted Kartik, it is evident that the AdlA M2k-5s never really went the whole hog - plus when did they do that upgrade? 15-20 years ago. My whole point was - they knew something much better was right around the corner (as does India), and they prudently went with a modest upg.

The French Air Force has preferred to keep the self-protection system already employed on the Mirage 2000 DA. An option chosen for both economic and technical reasons, namely standardising the equipment fitted in the interceptor fleet, and rationalising pilot-training. The current system, delivered at the beginning of the 1980s, comprises a Serval radar warning detector, a Sabre jammer and Spirale decoy launchers. It has undergone modifications comparable to those made to the ICMS to render it compatible with the new weapon system.

The French operate 64 Mirage-2000Cs that were not upgraded, they had 78 Mirage-2000Ds, 67 Mirage-2000Ns. 37 2000Cs were upgraded and for them it would make sense to keep the upgraded Mirage-2000-5Fs similar in some respects to the -C, D and N if they could to standardise equipment and pilot training. For the IAF, this doesn't hold true since we're going to have to upgrade all so there is no point in keeping older equipment which will be harder to source spares for as well.

Besides the French did it 15 years ago and even then they knew that the Mirages were to serve till 2025. With the Rafale eating up a large chunk of their budget, they had to keep it down to 37 for upgrades for economic reasons.

No doubt the M2k-5/9 that the UAE sports is indeed a top notch system - competitive in A2A against any F-16 blk-50 and MiG-29SMT, but I am not so certain that the exhorbitant amount spent is worth getting something that is merely "competitive". Might as well have upgraded via Israel.

CM

With the kind of squadron numbers that the IAF is left with, I believe it makes total sense to maximise the use of 3 squadrons of a fighter rather than letting it just wither away thanks to tight purse strings. This isn't a SHar that is a platform with (at best) very mediocre fighting qualities. This is in itself a great platform and has been the darling of the IAF for 2 decades and has the juice to go on for another 2 decades. If it then has to be used that long, then it should be kept up to date rather than getting some upgrade just for the heck of it.

[Cain Marko]

If that is the case then what is the IN doing with N-LCA and MiG-29K and what is the IAF doing with the MiG-29UPG with its Zhuk-ME2 radar? They're all mechanically scanned array equipped fighters that are firmly around the Mirage-2000-5 mark technology wise, not better in any respect. The IN is not the IAF - the only fighter that the IAF will get with mech arrays is the Baaz, and this was contracted for 3-4 years ago at a much lower price, even though it is more extensive. It is a fighter that the IAF expects to dump in around 15 years, which is precisely what I am suggesting for the M2k as well. Hang on to it for 25 years, and a dash 5 upg, which it is getting at an unGodly price, won't help. The IN analogy is not very accurate because the IN is not truly responsible for airspace defense, it has always been behind the IAF in such matters. There may be proliferation of AESA equipped J-10s and J-11 but overnight the entire PLAAF will not become AESA equipped. the IAF will get other MRCA and Su-30MKI upgrades with AESA and those should form the tip of the IAF's spear.Once the CHinese get it right, and they seem to be on the verge, they will proliferate at an alarming speed - the J10 itself was rather surprising - before anyone knew it, they have almost 100 a/c in service! Make no mistake, the Panda does not suffer from slow production rates, it has doubtless the most robust mfg base in the world But the rest of the bulwark has to be strong too, capable of tackling the PAF in both defensive and offensive situations. A half-hearted upgrade of the Mirages will leave them at a disadvantage and when even Jaguars and MiG-27s are getting firm upgrades, I still don't see how spending a few hundred million extra is bad considering the situation.LIke I said Kartik, what is the price on this upg? 2 billion USD ? 3? At any rate, I doubt EL-2032 equipped M2ks will be pushovers for blk 50s, iirc the Israelis preferred these over the apg-68v9; so qualitatively the difference would not be as much. And the price difference could very well be a cool billion, not chump change, perhaps more, iirc the difference was almost half the price.

Regarding RACR and SABR upgrades to existing PAF fighters, they've just contracted for upgrades to their entire F-16A/B fleet with APG-68(V)9 radars. I doubt they have the funding to go for new AESA radars for the remaining years left on the F-16s.
IIRC, the PAF is getting some spanking new airframes as well, these will not stay the same over their lifetimes - even the paltry PAF upgrades its platforms given half a chance. US AESA radars 15 years down the road for new PAF Vipers should not be surprising at all.

My guess is that the Mirages will last 15-20 years and will start being retired by then with the oldest airframes going out and then the newer ones consolidated into 1-2 squadrons and finally retired 20 years from now. So yes, 2025-2030 period they'll be gone. But there will not be any more upgrades for the duration of their lives unless the IAF runs into fleet expansion troubles during that phase. If that happens, it can be seen at that time. But these Mirages have to be able to tackle most of PAF and majority of PLAAF threats out till 2025 at least.

Post 2020, M2k-5 taking on PAF threats - perhaps. PLAAF threats, unlikely; we'd be looking for trouble.

How much money would be saved? is there even a figure out there for how much the Israeli upgrade was going to cost and how much the weapons that would need to be purchased were going to cost? Its not like the Israelis offered to upgrade the Mirages at $15 million each to full spec Mirage-2000-5 capabilities alongwith all the new stocks of WVR and BVR missiles.
Actually the offer was around $ 19 million! And what about the spares for the aircraft later on? With the OEM pissed off (and naturally so since every OEM generally expects that its product will be upgrade by it) they will jack up maintenance contract prices and then will the Israelis provide those too? I bet they cant. Yes, this is the concern, however, it can still be alleviated by going with a somewhat good enough upg with the RDY-3/RC400 type, Indian EW etc - keep the french happy, and then use the remaining $ss to rope in the Qataris

The French operate 64 Mirage-2000Cs that were not upgraded, they had 78 Mirage-2000Ds, 67 Mirage-2000Ns. 37 2000Cs were upgraded and for them it would make sense to keep the upgraded Mirage-2000-5Fs similar in some respects to the -C, D and N if they could to standardise equipment and pilot training. For the IAF, this doesn't hold true since we're going to have to upgrade all so there is no point in keeping older equipment which will be harder to source spares for as well. I am not advocating that the IAF sticks to older equipment as the Adla. But it can stick to something less expensive via a local kit. The point I was making via the Adla ex. however, was that even they/OEM chaps chose to keep their M2ks at less than gold stds by doing a rather limited upgrade of a few birds, and not even upgrading the others. Why? I'd wager that the decision was tremendously influenced by the soon to be inducted Rafale, which offers much more capability. Ditto with the IAF - everything that will come within a year of the M2k-5s will be markedly superior!

Besides the French did it 15 years ago and even then they knew that the Mirages were to serve till 2025. With the Rafale eating up a large chunk of their budget, they had to keep it down to 37 for upgrades for economic reasons. precisely, India does not have unlimited budget either, not yet.

With the kind of squadron numbers that the IAF is left with, I believe it makes total sense to maximise the use of 3 squadrons of a fighter rather than letting it just wither away thanks to tight purse strings. I disagree here, I feel that if there are options whereby greater numbers can be brought in thanks to $$s saved, they should be explored. And it seems as though options are available - a) Israeli + Qatari frames b) France - lower end upg + Qatari Frames, or c) - a or b + extra MRCA. Every damned extra airframe that they can get is far superior to any M2k-5 upgrade imho, esp. when it qualitatively makes the M2k-5 no more than a competition to vanilla Su-30/27, which the Chinese are almost ready to dump! This isn't a SHar that is a platform with (at best) very mediocre fighting qualities. This is in itself a great platform and has been the darling of the IAF for 2 decades and has the juice to go on for another 2 decades. If it then has to be used that long, then it should be kept up to date rather than getting some upgrade just for the heck of it.Nobody is denying the credibility of the platform or comparing it to the Shar Kartik, but that in itself does not justify an astonishing upgrade price imho

[Kartik]

The IN is not the IAF - the only fighter that the IAF will get with mech arrays is the Baaz, and this was contracted for 3-4 years ago at a much lower price, even though it is more extensive. It is a fighter that the IAF expects to dump in around 15 years, which is precisely what I am suggesting for the M2k as well. Hang on to it for 25 years, and a dash 5 upg, which it is getting at an unGodly price, won't help. The IN analogy is not very accurate because the IN is not truly responsible for airspace defense, it has always been behind the IAF in such matters.

The IN has to face the same enemies- the PN has no real fighter force and the IN will have to defend the fleet against the same PAF fighters that the Mirage-2000-5 will need to do against. If the Mirages are going to be overwhelmed then the MiG-29K will face a similar fate as well. The Mirages will last 15-20 years, not 25 years as per IAF officers. And you keep saying its an "unGodly/exorbitant price" (despite the n number of times that I've said this deal includes weapons) but what about the string of other purchases that the IAF and IN are going in for then? C-17s, P-8Is, A-330 MRTTs, a second hand rust bucket carrier that after upgrade is nearly as expensive as a brand new one, a god damn 11 billion $ deal for 6 subs (they must have mirhh in them to cost that much, or else how can the PN seek 3 U-214 subs for $ 2 billion from Germany?) !

The LUSH upgrade of the Shars wasn't as lovely as it seems. Shars have had issues with the Derby as well- just check Shiv Aroor's article on the CAG report where they blasted the IN for going with the Derby despite it not even meeting the performance parameters that were set. The OEM even refused to guarantee performance beyond a certain "B" range that was half of the range that the IN originally wanted. The Shars also had no EW suite added, just some displays, HOTAS and a radar with the Derby. No additional air-to-ground capability as such, but compared to the 2nd generation avionics and capabilities, this was a huge jump anyway. And it was delayed.

At least the MICA has been in Adl'A service for a long time now, is known to be a good performer (unlike the Derby that had no takers before the IN) and brings passive attack capabilities that are truly dangerous, coupled with the RDY-2 (and most likely RDY-3's) ability to keep the same waveform during both target track and missile guidance which means that no PAF fighter at least, has any surety whether he is simply being tracked or whether there is a MICA EM on its way to hit him. He has to assume the worse unless a MAWS can confirm for him that a missile is on its way to him.

Once the CHinese get it right, and they seem to be on the verge, they will proliferate at an alarming speed - the J10 itself was rather surprising - before anyone knew it, they have almost 100 a/c in service! Make no mistake, the Panda does not suffer from slow production rates, it has doubtless the most robust mfg base in the world

So it may be but the PLAAF will not overnight become an all-AESA equipped fleet and they have plenty of other enemies to be aware of. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea are all not fond of them and the PLAAF cannot position all its fighters in Tibet and hope to God (sorry they're atheists, maybe hope to Deng Ziao Ping) that the rest of the frontiers stay quiet. By 2020 the IAF should have 126 MRCAs and hopefully the Su-30MKI upgrade with AESA radars should've begun.

Anyway, if cost is the one thing that is going to get everyone so upset, then don't bother keeping on posting about how the Rafale, Typhoon, etc. are great. Just settle then for the cheapest whichever it be and pray to God that the Chinese don't attack.

LIke I said Kartik, what is the price on this upg? 2 billion USD ? 3? At any rate, I doubt EL-2032 equipped M2ks will be pushovers for blk 50s, iirc the Israelis preferred these over the apg-68v9; so qualitatively the difference would not be as much. And the price difference could very well be a cool billion, not chump change, perhaps more, iirc the difference was almost half the price.

Where did the $3 billion figure come from suddenly? the MoF will not approve such a costly deal, don't worry. It will be in range of $2 billion including weapons. Do you have a figure for how much the Israeli upgrade would've cost? Otherwise its all speculation as to how much money could've been saved.

IIRC, the PAF is getting some spanking new airframes as well, these will not stay the same over their lifetimes - even the paltry PAF upgrades its platforms given half a chance. US AESA radars 15 years down the road for new PAF Vipers should not be surprising at all.

Yes, 18 of them. Hardly the biggest threat in the world and we have enough other airframes to tackle these whenever (20 years down the road) they need a MLU. By then the MiG-29UPG will be retired and the Mirage-2000-5 will be on their way out of service anyway.

Post 2020, M2k-5 taking on PAF threats - perhaps. PLAAF threats, unlikely; we'd be looking for trouble.

If that is the case out then, then the IAF will base them during exigencies at locations near the Paki border, not in the NE or Ladakh.

[Juggi G]

The $50 Billion Shopping Spree

Magazine

[srai]

...

Where did the $3 billion figure come from suddenly? the MoF will not approve such a costly deal, don't worry. It will be in range of $2 billion including weapons. Do you have a figure for how much the Israeli upgrade would've cost? Otherwise its all speculation as to how much money could've been saved.

...

I think the confusion comes from some articles quoting the 2 billion as in EUR instead of USD (or vise versa). And there is confusion from the MICA included in some prices versus not in others.

India’s Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Finally Get a Deal?

...
Dec 6/10: Media reports indicate that France and India have agreed on the basic structure of a EUR 2.1 to 2.2 billion upgrade deal, which reportedly includes EUR 700-900 million for MBDA’s Mica air-to-air missiles. That deal still has not been signed, however, and isn’t expected to be signed until March 2011. Time will tell.
...

In any case, we can now tell what the price range of the MBDA's MICA is (and total price without it). SIPRI has reported an order of 600 MICA as part of the upgrade package. So this means any one of the following:

Per Unit Cost of MICA
EUR 700 million for 600 MICAs -> EUR 1.16 million per MICA (which is USD 1.5 million)
EUR 900 million for 600 MICAs -> EUR 1.5 million per MICA (which is USD 2 million)

Total Deal for 51 M2K aircraft upgrade only (minus MICA)
EUR 2.1 billion - EUR 700 million = EUR 1.4 billion (which is USD 1.85 billion)
EUR 2.2 billion - EUR 700 million = EUR 1.5 billion (which is USD 2 billion)

EUR 2.1 billion - EUR 900 million = EUR 1.2 billion (which is USD 1.6 billion)
EUR 2.2 billion - EUR 900 million = EUR 1.3 billion (which is USD 1.7 billion)

Total Deal (51 M2K aircraft upgrade plus 600 MICA)
EUR 2.1 billion = USD 2.8 billion
EUR 2.2 billion = USD 2.9 billion

[shiv]

I assume CAS for armored corp rumbling down the thar desert can be provided by the Multi role, ground attack aircrafts and helos of IAF with all the techno goodies for targeting. But what about providing Air cover on Eastern front. In case of a limited Chinese conflict, which aircraft in the indian arsenal will be best equipped to provide Aerial support in terrain which sometimes might be not accessible to the artillery. My perception is chinese conflict will be like a large scale kargil conflict, (although i dont know who holds elevated terrain in this case)

I cannot claim detailed insight but I believe the terrain is "Kargil like" only in terms of the presence of mountains.

In the North East India is in the plains - practically at sea level while the Chinese have to approach those plains from the mountains. The similarity with the Kargil scenario ends here. In the case of Kargil the routes to the top of those mountains are relatively easier from the Paki side. They are steep climbs from the Indian side. In the North East - once you climb those mountains from the plains on the Indian side - those mountains do not end at all for a thousand km. They go on and on and it's called "Tibet". If China stocks up enough men and material in Tibet they can technically "hold the high ground and descend on to Indian plains.

I believe that Indian and Chinese logistical problems are different. India has the need to protect a border up in the mountains but its supply lines come up from the plains which are close by. The Chinese need to maintain a supply line through the mountains that offer two problem. One is the physical problem of road and railways which the Chinese are rapidly resolving by building infrastructure. The other is the physiological (human limitation) problem of maintaining human beings up at those altitudes which is less easy than is acknowledged. Thia has been discussed (by me) at some length in the China military thread.

India - prior to 1962 had neither the number of acclimatized men to fight at those altitudes, nor did we have infrastructure. I have read that India has deliberately ignored border infrastructure in that area for the reason that once any Chinese cross over they will have no ready made roads and lines that they can use to come hurtling down to the plains. Clearly - good roads are a two edged weapon. They allow supply and resupply to the high border areas, but they equally allow invaders to come down easily. If invading troops get bogged down as they descend they can be picked off at will. This strategy can be combined with another geographical advantage for India - i.e India air bases at low level nearby and Chinese air bases at high altitude in Tibet.

But the entire scenario that I have described above appears like a good "defensive" strategy. It seems (to me) to have no inherent way of attacking and occupying areas of Tibet because that is a completely different ball game. In order to attack an occupy regions that are, on average 3000 meters plus above MSL we will need a change of paradigm which in my view i pointless because Tibet will be difficult to hod unless we get into a long term war of attrition.

A better strategy in my view would be a "dog in the manger" strategy where we neither occupy Tibet nor allow the Chinese to stay in comfort. That would be eminently doable. The sort of air power required to help with this would mean air dominance combined with PGMs to take out bridges and supply sumps and blocking roads and passes by causing landslides.

Just my thoughts

[Kartik]

I think the confusion comes from some articles quoting the 2 billion as in EUR instead of USD (or vise versa). And there is confusion from the MICA included in some prices versus not in others.

India’s Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Finally Get a Deal?

...
Dec 6/10: Media reports indicate that France and India have agreed on the basic structure of a EUR 2.1 to 2.2 billion upgrade deal, which reportedly includes EUR 700-900 million for MBDA’s Mica air-to-air missiles. That deal still has not been signed, however, and isn’t expected to be signed until March 2011. Time will tell.
...

In any case, we can now tell what the price range of the MBDA's MICA is (and total price without it). SIPRI has reported an order of 600 MICA as part of the upgrade package. So this means any one of the following:

Per Unit Cost of MICA
EUR 700 million for 600 MICAs -> EUR 1.16 million per MICA (which is USD 1.5 million)
EUR 900 million for 600 MICAs -> EUR 1.5 million per MICA (which is USD 2 million)

Total Deal for 51 M2K aircraft upgrade only (minus MICA)
EUR 2.1 billion - EUR 700 million = EUR 1.4 billion (which is USD 1.85 billion)
EUR 2.2 billion - EUR 700 million = EUR 1.5 billion (which is USD 2 billion)

EUR 2.1 billion - EUR 900 million = EUR 1.2 billion (which is USD 1.6 billion)
EUR 2.2 billion - EUR 900 million = EUR 1.3 billion (which is USD 1.7 billion)

Total Deal (51 M2K aircraft upgrade plus 600 MICA)
EUR 2.1 billion = USD 2.8 billion
EUR 2.2 billion = USD 2.9 billion

That is what I've been saying all this time - that the deal cost includes the price of weapons. Only then would MBDA be involved in what is called a "package" deal.

One thing is that unit price is supposed to be around $1 million but they will also include maintenance contracts, plus some training rounds and maybe new launchers for the MICAs if the existing ones that are used for the Super 530D and Magic II are incompatible.

[SriSri]

First C-130J's to Arrive Next Week; All Six Delivered by Summer 2011

[SriSri]

Lockheed offsets mock MoD norms
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ms/417748/

[Cain Marko]

The IN has to face the same enemies- the PN has no real fighter force and the IN will have to defend the fleet against the same PAF fighters that the Mirage-2000-5 will need to do against. If the Mirages are going to be overwhelmed then the MiG-29K will face a similar fate as well.

Yes but the IN's primary objective is to secure the seas not the skies, which should be obvious. This has so far automatically translated into the fact that it is the IAF that always gets the latest and greatest first. IOWs, while the Shar/29k could be acceptable for the IN in the near future (and they too are looking out for Gen 5 birds it seems), it is not necessarily the best equipment for the IAF 20 years down the road.

The Mirages will last 15-20 years, not 25 years as per IAF officers. And you keep saying its an "unGodly/exorbitant price" (despite the n number of times that I've said this deal includes weapons) but what about the string of other purchases that the IAF and IN are going in for then? C-17s, P-8Is, A-330 MRTTs, a second hand rust bucket carrier that after upgrade is nearly as expensive as a brand new one, a god damn 11 billion $ deal for 6 subs (they must have mirhh in them to cost that much, or else how can the PN seek 3 U-214 subs for $ 2 billion from Germany?) !

This is not about a string of other purchases - it is clearly about upgrading an 80s fighter to 90s/2000 standards - ala MiG-29SMT/K, at what seems to be a hefty amount. Obviously I am not the only bloke who finds the current price remarkably expensive, why do you think they have been haggling for the last 3 years - the DAC approved the purchase in 2008! IOWs, all the above examples are irrelevant - one can't point to the price of Bimmer if she/he intends to buy a moped. Different deals altogether.

The LUSH upgrade of the Shars wasn't as lovely as it seems. Shars have had issues with the Derby as well- just check Shiv Aroor's article on the CAG report where they blasted the IN for going with the Derby despite it not even meeting the performance parameters that were set. The OEM even refused to guarantee performance beyond a certain "B" range that was half of the range that the IN originally wanted. The Shars also had no EW suite added, just some displays, HOTAS and a radar with the Derby. No additional air-to-ground capability as such, but compared to the 2nd generation avionics and capabilities, this was a huge jump anyway. And it was delayed.

I already gave you a price that was suggested for the Israeli upg ~ $ 19 mill per bird. Look it up, it was there in an article when the Israeli Chief of Defence had made a visit a year or two ago. As far as the Shar / derby situation is concerned, are you serious? - CAG reports condemn everybody and everything - its their job. Anyways, as per that CAG report, the most damning comments are re. the IN, ya the vendors will pull stunts, but that is hardly anything new, wtf was the navy doing? Could also just be teething problems. What is to keep the IAF from getting a whack job on the M2k upgrade, i recall the Greeks having a pain in the ass with the EW suite on their 2000-5s. But all this happens and then is sorted out (hopefully) - nothing new happens everywhere. Btw, the Shars do have a naval variant of the Tarang , "roshni" I think, if not something newer, and are supposed to carry the EL-8222.

At least the MICA has been in Adl'A service for a long time now, is known to be a good performer (unlike the Derby that had no takers before the IN) and brings passive attack capabilities that are truly dangerous, coupled with the RDY-2 (and most likely RDY-3's) ability to keep the same waveform during both target track and missile guidance which means that no PAF fighter at least, has any surety whether he is simply being tracked or whether there is a MICA EM on its way to hit him. He has to assume the worse unless a MAWS can confirm for him that a missile is on its way to him.

I know about the Mica's capabilities, esp. the IIR version and have already noted that temptation, however, are they buying any IIRs? And even then, all this talk is tangential to the main point I was attempting to make - the upgrade need not be that expensive - if something relatively less goldplated is available (even from the French) it might be well worth considering esp. when the $$ could be put to good use elsewhere!

So it may be but the PLAAF will not overnight become an all-AESA equipped fleet and they have plenty of other enemies to be aware of. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea are all not fond of them and the PLAAF cannot position all its fighters in Tibet and hope to God (sorry they're atheists, maybe hope to Deng Ziao Ping) that the rest of the frontiers stay quiet. By 2020 the IAF should have 126 MRCAs and hopefully the Su-30MKI upgrade with AESA radars should've begun.

Did I not already point out that it might not be overnight - 2020-25 sounds like "overnight" to anyone?

Anyway, if cost is the one thing that is going to get everyone so upset, then don't bother keeping on posting about how the Rafale, Typhoon, etc. are great. Just settle then for the cheapest whichever it be and pray to God that the Chinese don't attack.

The Tiffy and MRCA birds are altogether a different topic - the focus right now is on the M2k upgrade - is the price, even the $ 2.1 billion quote that you suggest worth it. Btw, there is a BR link to the Economic TImes that quotes a Rs. 15000cr price for the upg (~ $ 3+ billion), and it is not the only one!

Where did the $3 billion figure come from suddenly? the MoF will not approve such a costly deal, don't worry. It will be in range of $2 billion including weapons. Do you have a figure for how much the Israeli upgrade would've cost? Otherwise its all speculation as to how much money could've been saved.

Look above.

Yes, 18 of them. Hardly the biggest threat in the world and we have enough other airframes to tackle these whenever (20 years down the road) they need a MLU. By then the MiG-29UPG will be retired and the Mirage-2000-5 will be on their way out of service anyway.

Again, you miss the point. My response was to your statement that the PAF had older F-16s which won't be upgraded any further. It happens that they in fact do have newer ones that can get that upgrade, the possibility of further purchases also remains. Not to mention J10 upgrades. IOWs, as I was originally saying that IAF M2ks would be rather hardpressed against upgraded versions in the post 2020 timeframe. Now, if they start retiring them around 2025, what is the whole point of doing such an exhorbitant upg. for a mere 10 odd years and that too when it won't really provide any amazing capability that an MRCA/LCA.2 might not have?

IMHO, what they need is something quick and dirty, and additional numbers - good enough to give the current batch of PLAAF/PAF birds a run for their money (which an EL-2032/derby or perhaps RC400/Mica should manage). AFter 2015-18, it won't matter that much anyway because the IAF will be loaded with upgraded MKI, Tejas 2, MRCA, and perhaps Pakfa.

Post 2020, M2k-5 taking on PAF threats - Doing a goldplated upg. that will start coming in around the same time as the MRCA is perhaps wasteful.

CM

[Kartik]

No point arguing any more CM. You can believe what you want and I will do likewise.

[Cain Marko]

Srai, thank you for including more information. IIRC, there was a french national assembly report that mentioned a Mica EM @ 1.3 million USD and a Mica IIR @ 1.7 or thereabouts, which fits in with your prices. Btw, that economic times report puts it at 15000 cr.

POint is, at that rate we are looking at close to $ 1.5-2 billion just to upg. the a/c. That is like $ 30 mil to 40 million per unit. Not expensive? The Israelis were saying $ 19 mil to upgrade one unit. Almost half the price. The MiG-29 cost was $ 15 mil per bird, the Shar was $ 250 million for 14 a/c. Now, if something around $ 1 billion can be done to make the M2k-5 BVR capable with the Mica/Derby, where is the harm? Use the saved $ 750-1000mil to buy out the Qataris - thats 12 additional very worthy figthers at a time when you really need them.

CM

[Austin]

I think any one who can dispassionately look at M2K upgrade viz a viz the money we paid to get that done would agree that the upgrade is quite good but the french has royally squeezed us for demanding and getting $2.1 billion.

This is specially true in the backdrop that we paid less than half of the amount to upgrade more numbers of Mig-29 to UPG/multirole standards.

One of the reason this upgrade got delayed ( almost 6 years negotiations ! ) was the French was demanding ~ $2.5 billion and then using some indiginous content viz JV we managed to bring the cost down well somewhat.

A deal for ~ $2.1 would have been justified if they were to be equipped with AESA and had new BVR missile like Meteor and stand off weapons Black Shaheen etc for just upgrading 50 odd aircraft.

Compare that we paid $2.3 for Gorshkov Carrier with its entire bells and whistle and still many still justifiably feel even that it was a rip off.

[koti]

^^Point to note.
2.3Billion for an AC + hell lot of EW, ASM capabilities+16 Mig-29K Multi role Ac(?) + hidden prices of Akula(??)

And 2.9Billion USD for upgrading 51 old M2K to 4th gen machines. Oh we are getting the Missiles in this too....

[Singha]

is there any news in international media about current state of readiness of EL2052? does it feature US made export controlled components that will need clearance from GOTUS?

I am thinking the desi-AESA which has not yet entered flight trials and no word on what is its fabrication status would not be possible for Tejas Mk2 in 4 yrs time, so the only aesa options are EL2052, APG79, APG80, SABR and Selex. NIIP tikhomirov/Zhuk aesa will likely be ready for use for pakfa only or maybe later tranches of Su35BM the big beast and not in Tejas form factor. EL2052 and Israel would give us a good option to integrate a diversity of weapons like Astra, Sudarshan, future I-series missiles without the hassles of GOTUS having a PMS fit every couple months. Israel has nowhere to use the EL2052 - it will not be allowed on F16, F16 and JSF paid for my american funds. they have no a2a ucav program to my knowledge. they could offer it to India , South Korea and Japan. they might even offer technology sale to NIIP/Zhuk .

LRDE is probably having the desi AEW radar as its prime focus and also the Mk1 Tejas hybrid radar.

[shukla]

IAF completes commercial talks for airfields modernisation
DNA India

[kit]

Just look at the threats that the IAF faces today and will face 10-15 years from now. There is the new F-16 Block 50, F-16 MLU'ed to close to Block 50 standards and JF-17 of the PAF, there are the J-11 and J-10s of the PLAAF and these are the main threats. I don't see how the Mirage-2000-5 cannot adequately handle any of these threats for the duration that they exist. After all, they won't be going un-supported anyway, with AWACS support in most cases and maybe even Su-30MKIs supporting them since there will be 280 of them inducted by the time the Mirage-2000s are fully upgraded.

I'd like to see someone tell me how exactly the F-16 Block 50 or the JF-17 cannot be tackled by a Mirage-2000-5 with all the bells and whistles that it is supposed to get. And also point out which other aircraft apart from the Su-30MKI and the MiG-29UPG and Tejas Mk1/2 can do so at significant distances from their home bases. the IAF is obviously happy enough with them to want to keep them going till they can last, and without compromising on their fighting qualities by going for a piecemeal upgrade.

Kartik, look at the timelines for the M2K-5; by the time it starts coming in around 2015, the existing threat scenario will certainly have upped. Today is one thing, I'll wager that 10 years down the road the scenario is quite another. The Chinese esp. seem to be on the threshold of some top notch stuff - AESA variants of the J10/J11 are already doing the rounds (and if expereince teaches us something, they may come into service v.soon). The M2ks will be hard up. Although the PAF is not as much a threat, by 2020 such tech might find its way into PAF inventory as well. Also, an AESA upg. for the 16s from their sugar daddy down the road cannot be discounted either. As you point out, the M2k is expected to last another 25 years - 2035+ I daresay that by 2020-25 (let alone post 2025), the M2k will be hardpressed (perhaps even earlier), and even a small upg. via the French will cost bitter amounts. Rather just do a minimum upg. flog the birds and go with something that will be supported by OEM - MRCA/Tejas.

An Israeli upgrade with Elta 2032/Derby/Python-5 would've been handy if we couldn't afford this upgrade, but it would take more time for the Israelis to develop all the required solutions and then start upgrading them. And I doubt that it would've been as affective as the one that the French are offering. The Astra is nowhere near being operational so hoping that it will become the Mirage's main BVR weapon is a bit risky.

The alternative route is attractive because the money saved could possibly be used elsewhere and because the M2k-5 upg. does not really offer anything substantially over a similar present day upg via Israel or over what std. F-16/MiG-29 MLUs offer. For the price, one would hope that the tech offered provides an edge 15 years later, which it clearly will not. Or does the IAF upgrade one more time? That kind of $s should be spent not only on buffing up in the short term, but also ensuring that the muscle stays in the long run.

BTW, the French did upgrade 37 of their Mirage-2000Cs to the -5 standard, which is close to what the IAF is getting.

From the very article you posted Kartik, it is evident that the AdlA M2k-5s never really went the whole hog - plus when did they do that upgrade? 15-20 years ago. My whole point was - they knew something much better was right around the corner (as does India), and they prudently went with a modest upg.

The French Air Force has preferred to keep the self-protection system already employed on the Mirage 2000 DA. An option chosen for both economic and technical reasons, namely standardising the equipment fitted in the interceptor fleet, and rationalising pilot-training. The current system, delivered at the beginning of the 1980s, comprises a Serval radar warning detector, a Sabre jammer and Spirale decoy launchers. It has undergone modifications comparable to those made to the ICMS to render it compatible with the new weapon system.

No doubt the M2k-5/9 that the UAE sports is indeed a top notch system - competitive in A2A against any F-16 blk-50 and MiG-29SMT, but I am not so certain that the exhorbitant amount spent is worth getting something that is merely "competitive". Might as well have upgraded via Israel.

CM

I suppose an indigenous/israeli AESA would be in place by 10 years along with extended range AAMs .. that should hopefully take on the chinese AESA fighters.

[Bala Vignesh]

M-MRCA-The contending missiles.
Copyright of Vayu Aerospace and Defence Review.

[sankum]

Indian Air Force completes trails of basic trainer aircraft

[karan_mc]

Faster infrastructure development required in N-E : Air chief marshal PV Naik

[Lalmohan]

Indian Air Force completes trails of basic trainer aircraft

is this credible? suggesting that even ab initio training is being done on hawks!
even hiring a/c from a civil flying club is better!

[Surya]

Nah DDM

worse case we will do the training on Kirans.

no one is going to put these guys on hawks directly

[VinodTK]

Russian wings in the Indian skies

[SriSri]

Rosoboronexport to Begin Mi-17-V5 Helicopter Deliveries in March 2011

[Juggi G]

BAE, HAL Mull Future Of Hawk Trainer Partnership

[Juggi G]

‘Our Will to Invest in India is High'



Interview with Louis Gallois, CEO of EADS

[Juggi G]

First Lockheed C-130J ready for India
Atlanta Business Chronicle

[Juggi G]

[Juggi G]

Mi-26 Helicopter Crashes in Jammu, Eight Defence Personnel Injured
Daily News & Analysis

[Juggi G]

RSAF & Indian Air Force Collaborate