Indian Military Aviation

[Juggi G]

Lockheed Martin to hand over First IAF C-130J Tomorrow
Daily News & Analysis

Nine sets of IAF crew comprising 18 pilots, nine load masters and nine combat system operators are currently undergoing training in the US.

Of them, five sets of crew members would complete their training in February next year.

"Training involves classroom studies, computer based applications, simulator and flight operations. Training is being conducted at Little Rock Air Force Base in Arkansas and Marietta. Additionally, nearly 100 maintenance officers and technicians are also being trained at these locations," a Lockheed Martin official said.

After completing pilot flight training, the first two aircraft will be flown to India early next year by the IAF crew, he said. The remaining four aircraft will be delivered two in early summer and two in late summer of next year.

[Juggi G]

Touch The Sky With Glory

Clicky to get Bigger Pic

Touch The Sky With Glory

MARIETTA, Ga., December 16th, 2010 -- At ceremonies today here, Lockheed Martin [NYSE:LMT] delivered the first of six C-130Js for the Indian Air Force. The new fleet was ordered under a U.S. Foreign Military Sale (India’s first) in late 2008. “There are few mottos that impart such passion as that of the Indian Air Force, which is ‘Touch the Sky With Glory’,” said Lorraine Martin, Lockheed Martin’s vice president for C-130 Programs, during today’s ceremony. “Today begins a new glorious, enduring partnership with India as the fourth largest air force in the world proudly joins the worldwide C-130 family.”

[Juggi G]

Pilot Recalls Bombing Mission in 1971 Liberation War

[chackojoseph]

Indian Air Force takes delivery of first of six C-130Js

Its been few decades that IAF wanted this plane.

[Singha]

imo we should end the MTA fiasco and just license make the C-130J instead - same payload of 20T, excellent range, available now and proven track record. Order 150 - have LM make 75 there and HAL kanpur make 75 locally, they will surely setup a good base repair depot for such an order. some offsets will help local industry. it will face no issues in US congress being a transport a/c and doesnt need to carry 'sensitive' gear. and atleast we wont need to fund russian r&d and production line and bribe back key people from the local vodka den.

for MTA since the basis is a russian design we will learn nothing anyway about designing transports, so the lack of design input on C-130J is not a problem. in either case its zero.

pretty sick and tired of the word MTA - I was ten years younger when it first came up and NOTHING has happened wrt to production or confirmed order or DELIVERY TIMELINE or even CERTIFICATION. nobody even wants to admit its a problem.

[vavinash]

RSAF & Indian Air Force Collaborate

Interesting...Porkis also have F-16's and RBS-70

[Austin]

for MTA since the basis is a russian design we will learn nothing anyway about designing transports, so the lack of design input on C-130J is not a problem. in either case its zero.

Atleast the HAL chairman had to say this on MTA

Can you elaborate on the MTA contract signed between India and Russia?
This is a joint venture programme with equal equity participation from the Indian side and the Russian side. While the funding would be from IAF, the Indian partner in the JVC is HAL. On the Russian side, there will be two partners, Rosoboronexport and United Aircraft Corporation. The joint venture will be incorporated with its registered office in Bangalore.

The work-share has already been discussed informally and there is a general understanding on the roles and responsibilities of both the partners. As far as manufacturing is concerned, it will be 50 per cent each by both the partners. This means that every aircraft made will have parts/equipments made by both the partners. The project will be managed with an online secure system between India and Russia where both partners will be sharing information in a seamless manner to ensure total manufacturing compatibility. An initial amount of USD 600 million will be put into the venture for the design and development and we hope to start the work by January next year.

I want to make an interesting point about the MTA. While we have done ab-initio designs within the country, this will be the first time we will be partnering with a foreign country from design stage itself. This will be a challenge as it will involve understanding their designing concepts, work culture and language.

The C-130J is a good aircraft no doubt and the American would dole out cheap , but it will be tons of metal blackboxes that will have no indian contribution or any learning experience.

MTA is more about learning to build an aircraft from design stage then simply importing one to meet IAF needs , Its possible that HAL wont suddenly start building civil aircraft after MTA and start competing with Embrarer or Bombardier at international level , but it will give them exposure how to build one and create the design team and infrastructure to build a competitive civil aircraft industry , else there is no way we would move beyond building Saras and even that proved to be big challenge.

[rohitvats]

^^^It is all about learning and some more learning....never mind the clear and present requirement of IAF.

[Anabhaya]

I have yet to see any meaningful learning experience from large scale joint-development projects that we may not have managed on our own. We're funding the Russians to quickly develop a new aircraft. Large scale imports with a degree of transfer of manufacturing lines to Desh is these days fashionably termed joint-development.

[geeth]

I have yet to see any meaningful learning experience from large scale joint-development projects that we may not have managed on our own. We're funding the Russians to quickly develop a new aircraft. Large scale imports with a degree of transfer of manufacturing lines to Desh is these days fashionably termed joint-development.

Did we learn something (if not everything) from Bhahmos experience or was it just like any other imports like, say, T-90, F-404 etc onlee..?

[Anabhaya]

The engine and seeker are imported as is from Russia. No transfer of technology.

[nrshah]

We are already working on our own on these things as well...
Remember LRCM... Without exposure to Brahmos, it would not be in the state it is...

[Pratyush]

What about the Mk 2 the hypersonice weapon. Will that still have Russian materials or will it be a homemade stuff.

[SriSri]

Cross posting from the FGFA thread .. FGFA/PAKFA - HAL, Sukhoi T-50 Preliminary Design by 2012; Cost USD 295 million

[shukla]

Our offset policy is complicated: IAF vice-chief

[Juggi G]

C-130J India Delivery Ceremony
@ Lockheed Martin Videos

[srai]

for MTA since the basis is a russian design we will learn nothing anyway about designing transports, so the lack of design input on C-130J is not a problem. in either case its zero.

Atleast the HAL chairman had to say this on MTA

Can you elaborate on the MTA contract signed between India and Russia?
This is a joint venture programme with equal equity participation from the Indian side and the Russian side. While the funding would be from IAF, the Indian partner in the JVC is HAL. On the Russian side, there will be two partners, Rosoboronexport and United Aircraft Corporation. The joint venture will be incorporated with its registered office in Bangalore.

The work-share has already been discussed informally and there is a general understanding on the roles and responsibilities of both the partners. As far as manufacturing is concerned, it will be 50 per cent each by both the partners. This means that every aircraft made will have parts/equipments made by both the partners. The project will be managed with an online secure system between India and Russia where both partners will be sharing information in a seamless manner to ensure total manufacturing compatibility. An initial amount of USD 600 million will be put into the venture for the design and development and we hope to start the work by January next year.

I want to make an interesting point about the MTA. While we have done ab-initio designs within the country, this will be the first time we will be partnering with a foreign country from design stage itself. This will be a challenge as it will involve understanding their designing concepts, work culture and language.

The C-130J is a good aircraft no doubt and the American would dole out cheap , but it will be tons of metal blackboxes that will have no indian contribution or any learning experience.

MTA is more about learning to build an aircraft from design stage then simply importing one to meet IAF needs , Its possible that HAL wont suddenly start building civil aircraft after MTA and start competing with Embrarer or Bombardier at international level , but it will give them exposure how to build one and create the design team and infrastructure to build a competitive civil aircraft industry , else there is no way we would move beyond building Saras and even that proved to be big challenge.

With the induction of six C-130Js happening and plus most likely the six options being exercised (total 12 aircrafts), IAF for the time being (next 5-7 years) will have enough in this 20t category. In the next 5-7 years, IAF will get 16 (10+6 options) heavy-lift C-17As. So there is not much as urgency to fill big voids in IAF's lift capability in the immediate future (next 5-7 years).

It is likely any substantial delay in the MTA (beyond the 2017 planned deadline) will mean more orders for C-130Js and C-17As. At least, IAF has that flexibility now.

[Gurneesh]

Wasn't the c130 supposed to have IFR probe ?

[shukla]

Russian president Dmitry Medvedev on way, 14 big deals in offing
The Hindu

The two sides are also expected to ink a $4.3 billion (Rs 19,350 crore) deal for 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters to be manufactured by HAL. Russia has increased the price significantly, considering India bought 40 such fighters for only $1.6 billion (Rs 7,200 crore) three years ago.

Price escalation by 2 1/2 times in 3-4 years??? How are they justifying that?

[manish.rastogi]

which are the planes in iaf inventory suitable for terrain hugging operations.....anyone???

[abhinavjo]

I see in this pic that USAF lets SSGT's fly aircraft?

Is that a trend in IAF too?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 0.jpg.html

[Pratyush]

which are the planes in iaf inventory suitable for terrain hugging operations.....anyone???

Jaguar, Mig 27.

[Aditya G]

I see in this pic that USAF lets SSGT's fly aircraft?

Its the name of the engineer responsible for the aircraft.

[abhinavjo]

then why is it painted on the aircraft?
I know this for a fact that in USN pilot's names are written near the cockpits

[Rahul M]

the pilot's name is on the port side AFAIK.

[manish.rastogi]

which are the planes in iaf inventory suitable for terrain hugging operations.....anyone???

Jaguar, Mig 27.

then i guess we need some more jets for such operations which are low flying and more suitable for a2g!!!

[Rahul M]

why ? we have a large number of jags and mig-27 and with the advent of FBW dedicated low level penetration fighters are not necessary.

[Pratyush]

Rahul,

Any way I feel that we need a low end replacement for both the Mig & Jag for the BAI roles. The concept that you had come up with in design your own fighter thread could be a good start(Yes the one I disagreed with ). As it can be done cheaply and with minimum of testing.


JMHO......

[Rahul M]

boss that one is still a derivative design, not a from scratch de novo one.

[Pratyush]

That's the reason why it will be cheap and require minimum testing. Though the payload will be miniscule as compared to the 27 or the Jaguar. (That is my reservation with the concept). Address that and we are good to go.

[shiv]

then why is it painted on the aircraft?

The pilot, the engineer and everyone will know exactly whom the pilot depends on for life. Counter intuitively it is not just the pilot who is responsible for an aircraft but an entire team of ground staff that keep it flying. If you go back and look at flight accident statistics for the last 20 or 30 years you find that the cause of aircraft accidents is:

1) Technical problem
or
2) Pilot error.

It is up to the ground staff to make sure that no technical problems occur so that accidents of any might occur due to unavoidable circumstances like bird hits or terrible weather. The pilot of course has to look after himself and it is up to ground staff to ensure that their actions do not add to the possibility of a flight accident.

[Rahul M]

my reply here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 83#p996483

[dinesha]

Russian president Dmitry Medvedev on way, 14 big deals in offing
The Hindu

The two sides are also expected to ink a $4.3 billion (Rs 19,350 crore) deal for 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters to be manufactured by HAL. Russia has increased the price significantly, considering India bought 40 such fighters for only $1.6 billion (Rs 7,200 crore) three years ago.

Price escalation by 2 1/2 times in 3-4 years??? How are they justifying that?

That is more than $100 mill per piece..
The order is for 40+2. (2 being replacements)
I think these 40 are hardwired ones are those sought by SFC... newsbytes about the SFC’s acquisition proposal could have been made public later then actual date ...well after negotiations with Russians might have begun..

Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear
Published: Aug 17, 2010

With an astronomical 155% increase in price in three years, the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft seem to be going the Gorshkov way.

The deal for aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov was hammered in 2004 for $974 million (Rs4,560 crore), but it was renegotiated in 2010 at $2.3 billion (Rs10,770 crore).

After the Indian Air Force (IAF) wrote to the ministry of defence expressing concern at its depleting strength and pressing for immediate purchase of 40 Sukhois-30s under the fast-track provision, which does not warrant tendering or open competition, a deal was inked with Russia in 2007 for $1.6 billion (Rs7,490 crore), that is $40 million (Rs190 crore) a piece.

Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.

The latest deal will make the IAF inventory 270-strong and India the largest operator of Sukhois by 2018, when HAL is to deliver the aircraft.

But the escalation in cost cannot be justified, especially since the aircraft being manufactured by HAL do not have enhanced features, such as the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar. Defence experts, in fact, are of the view that since the assembly line is in Bangalore, where HAL is based, the latest deal should have cost less.

The deal becomes even more loss-making since American fifth-generation fighter aircraft, F-35, manufactured by Lockheed Martin are priced at $100 million (Rs470 crore) a piece. F-35, an advanced stealth fighter with features such as supercruise and AESA radar, competes with fourth-generation fighters, such as Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale, in Norway and Denmark for deals.

The American F-16, again made by Lockheed Martin, is competing in India for IAF’s fighter jet deal with Typhoon and Rafale.
IAF already has these four-plus generation fighters, which are awaiting clearance for upgrade in a separate deal involving Irkutsk and HAL.

The “deep upgrade” will include enhanced combat features, systems and avionics, which would increase the flight performance and keep the aircraft in service for a longer duration. The biggest feature of the “deep upgrade” is the inclusion of the AESA radars replacing the passive radars in IAF Sukhois.

The twin-engine heavy-weight Sukhoi entered IAF service in 2000 after clearance in 1997, but has not undergone any upgrade since.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ai ... ar_1424437

[manish.rastogi]

why ? we have a large number of jags and mig-27 and with the advent of FBW dedicated low level penetration fighters are not necessary.

sirjee....what i meant to say was that to penetrate the future advanced defenses....we need some more sophisticated and advanced designs....and from what i have gathered from listening to conversations here that delta wing are not really good for a2g roles....and also the fighter that are going to be inducted in future in iaf seems to be multirole with generally delta designs.....jmt!!

[shiv]

sirjee....what i meant to say was that to penetrate the future advanced defenses....we need some more sophisticated and advanced designs....and from what i have gathered from listening to conversations here that delta wing are not really good for a2g roles....and also the fighter that are going to be inducted in future in iaf seems to be multirole with generally delta designs.....jmt!!

At what sirji? What altitude?

Most people who make statements like "Delta wing not good for this" and "Phalta wing is better" are not talking about India.

India has to have aircraft that can attack ground targets that are 15,000 feet or higher and remain agile at those altitudes? Have you checked how high Aksai Chin is or the mountains of Kargil?

Jaguar is great at low level - 50 feet above the surface at sea level. You send a Jaguar up to those heights and its wings do not "bite" into the rarified air like those of a delta. Did you know that a ten engine B-36 "peacemaker" bomber (link to photo below) was supposed to have been more maneuverable at high altitude than all the other US fighters of that era?

http://www.dunkeswellmemorialmuseum.org ... emaker.jpg

The Tejas is designed to fight in Indian conditions for India's requirements.

[manish.rastogi]

^^^Hmm.....point acknowledged sir!!:)

[darshhan]

Rahul,

Any way I feel that we need a low end replacement for both the Mig & Jag for the BAI roles. The concept that you had come up with in design your own fighter thread could be a good start(Yes the one I disagreed with ). As it can be done cheaply and with minimum of testing.


JMHO......

How about LCA mk1?It can easily fulfil the roles for both Mig 27 and Jaguars(not to say Mig-21).It is already in advanced phase of testing.It is going to achieve IOC soon now.Within a couple of years it should be ready for mass production.In my opinion this is the best choice we have right now.It is indigenous,cheap,capable and almost ready.For a light fighter it has a pretty decent range and payload.It is much more than a point defence fighter as some have implied on this forum.

[kedar.karmarkar]

C-130J India Delivery Ceremony
@ Lockheed Martin Videos

I appear around 0:15 to 0:18, and then speaking with Air Cmde Walia around the 0:30 on the left.

There was freezing rain in the night, which changed to just rain in the morning and it stopped raining towards the end - which was nature's way of cooperating for the handover ceremony

Some pictures to share -
http://flic.kr/p/92SMPK

http://flic.kr/p/92VUGE

http://flic.kr/p/92VUG1

Best Regards
Kedar

[Kartik]

Kedar, are you going to be in India for Aero India 2011 ? Really hoping that you're there- your pictures of the Tejas are some of the best taken of it so far and am really hoping for a good display this time around.

[shiv]

I appear around 0:15 to 0:18, and then speaking with Air Cmde Walia around the 0:30 on the left.

Yes that's you alright. In exactly one frame. Shows why videos should be looked at frame by frame to catch everyone who appears on them