LCA News and Discussions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Dec 2010 21:02

technically, though stores separation like a drop tank may be considered for below the wings, but operationally, for example missiles can't ask for that always., say in a dog fight one can't expect the pilot won't lock/engage to fire a missile only keeping his bottom wings with missiles facing the earth (inverted).

challenging but doable.

--

Q: Which is better operationally?

1. conformal or increased internal fuel space /mid-air refuel-able [leaving the tanker logistics aside]

2. drop tank

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Dec 2010 22:10

The way to drop overwing drop tanks would be to fit them on an angular rail, the drop tanks themselves would be a little heavier at the higher end, so when the fuel is consumed he has to de-activate the stopper on the lower side of the rail so that the droptank slides and falls down. I was thinking the only saiving that it would yield is we wouldnt need a pump, but looks like we need a pump anyways

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 20 Dec 2010 22:22

tejas to get inducted in one week

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/ia ... -week.html

what will be its no. like marut ??

HAL HF-24 Marut

HAL HF-?? TEJAS

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 20 Dec 2010 22:30

Shiv, it doesn't look like the BAC Lighting external tanks were jettisoned much, according to wikipedia. In fact, it mentions that even though the first version developed was droppable, it was usually removed only during maintenance. Later versions were non-droppable. Incidentally, it doesn't mention overhead wing tanks either, only a conformal ventral tank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Dec 2010 22:32

suryag wrote:The way to drop overwing drop tanks would be to fit them on an angular rail, the drop tanks themselves would be a little heavier at the higher end, so when the fuel is consumed he has to de-activate the stopper on the lower side of the rail so that the droptank slides and falls down. I was thinking the only saiving that it would yield is we wouldnt need a pump, but looks like we need a pump anyways

at any kind of airspeed, sliding and dropping will be significantly countered by drag and lift on the tank... don't assume any sliding will take place as expected

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 20 Dec 2010 22:57

Wing performance is much more dependent on airflow over the wing than under it. That's the reason why 99+% of the time engines, missiles, fuel tanks, etc. are installed below the wing rather than above it.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Dec 2010 23:06

Singha wrote:well time to start work on certain ideas then. the idea of a taller fuel pylon and a couple AAM fixed to the side seems interesting...(F15E style)..

Singha, there was a blazing argument about all this dual rack pylons for the Tejas long time back. Cybaru and I were the ones who were involved in it. Can't find that thread now though the arguments lasted 2 pages at least.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2010 23:07

yeah, I was involved in it as well. the thread should be there in the archives or trash. it hasn't been deleted AFAIK.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Dec 2010 23:10

suryag wrote:Why are drop tanks always hung, why cant they be put above the wing and dropped when all fuel is dumped into the wings. This way there would be no need to pump out from the drop tank to the wings, gravity will do the job.

because you want a clean wing. Please read about how lift is generated by wings and what camber and aerodynamic foil shapes are like.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Dec 2010 23:11

Rahul M wrote:yeah, I was involved in it as well. the thread should be there in the archives or trash. it hasn't been deleted AFAIK.

I just googled for it and couldn't find it..maybe will look into the archives or trash later.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2010 23:14

deja vu.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 79#p794779

edit : nah seems like that one is gone, it was older than I thought.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Dec 2010 00:12

Thanks for looking Rahul

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2010 00:31

So gurus feel that tejas has strengths to make its middle rack as tiwn or triple rail launcher. Cool. Hope the same get into the thoughts of our ada folks then.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Dec 2010 07:45

neat idea - 3 aams on the center pylon/

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Dec 2010 11:10

A slightly different report from tarmak007 in AW
Tejas Completes Drop Tank Jettison Trials

. With a Dec. 27 deadline looming to complete the certification process, ahead of its scheduled initial operational clearance (IOC), the focus now shifts to New Delhi for a crucial review, scheduled on Dec. 21.

The Indian air force (IAF) chief is expected to make a final decision on IOC at this meeting, which would signal IAF pilots to fly Tejas to check its handling qualities and other advanced features. This also will pave the way for its squadron formation sometime in mid-2011, by the time the remaining platforms (LSP-7 and LSP-8) would have joined the flight line.

Today is Dec21, let us see what comes of it

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Dec 2010 02:09

Great news !!

LCA to be inducted next month

After three decades of development, the first squadron of indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas is all set to be inducted into the Indian Air Force(IAF) next month.

The first Tejas squadron will receive its initial operational clearance at a function on January 10, catapulting India to a select club of nations that built a fighter plane from scratch. The historic first squadron will be stationed at Sulur near Coimbatore, sources said. Defence Minister A Kantony will be present at the function.

...
...
The second LCA squadron will be stationed at Kayathir near Tuticorin, where the IAF is developing a new fighter base. The small World War II base will be converted into a major aviation hub in a few years.

After receiving the initial operational clearance, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will manufacture the first 20 Tejas aircraft in two batches of 10 planes each.

...
...
The booming IT industry in Bangalore and Hyderabad also contributed to the woes of the LCA team with many young and mid-career engineers and technical hands leaving the LCA industry in search of greener pastures.

Only after placing the order in 2005 that the IAF stationed a 14-member LCA induction team, headed by an Air Vice Marshal in Bangalore to steer the indigenous fighter to its destination.
...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2010 03:15

indeed, with out a user there is no product. awesome.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Dec 2010 05:16

From the link

So far, HAL has manufactured two technology demonstrators, five prototypes and 28 limited series production aircraft with imported engine. However, HAL will continue to upgrade the indigenous fighter as the IAF plans to induct close to 200 LCAs and 20 twin seater trainer versions in the long run.

DDM strikes again!! Can these guys not write two lines without a mistake??

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Dec 2010 06:55

Any laser-optical/electro-optical locator system (like OLS/OSF) planned for the LCA?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 08:59

not on the first 40 I think. long time back there was news posted here of a Drdo IRST in development with a fairly limited fov (vs the OLS/OSF types)...maybe it was for the LCH program to passively pick up helicopter targets and release mistral aams....

vina · Post by **vina** » 23 Dec 2010 09:22

Hmm. TN gets both the first two squadrons, Sulur in north west TN and in deeep south, at Kayathar (Kattabomman's capital was ~~Kayathar~~ Panachalkuruchi, I have been there a couple of times long long ago, remember the fort and cannon balls and stuff on display there and also the spot on the highway where there is a memorial on the spot where he was hanged by the British (that is at Kayathar)).

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 23 Dec 2010 10:48

One thing I dont understand

the LCA is a fighter with limited range- what is the sense of basing it in TN? even if it is used as a point defense bird or as an interceptor, it still makes more sense to base it in places like Udhampur, Jaisalmer, bagdogra etc.

The commies and the porkis dont have carriers that can launch craft to reach TN. the only thing in commie arsenal that can reach TN are their flankers, and the Tejas would be dead meat against the flankers.

Or is it that IAF want to fully test this baby over the next few years before putting it in a station that would be directly in harms way?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 10:54

between IOC to FOC its more convenient to be near Blr for a quick visit by HAl/ada people and vice versa.
after FOC, it will be deployed anywhere ... but south indian air defence is presently stark naked and plans are afoot to close the gap.

vina · Post by **vina** » 23 Dec 2010 11:02

The commies and the porkis dont have carriers that can launch craft to reach TN. the only thing in commie arsenal that can reach TN are their flankers

There is nothing with Pakis or Chinese that can get anywhere near TN by air. However, that is why it was left largely unprotected from the air. Unkil and Unkil ALONE has the capability to mount an air attack on TN southern coast .

However, the LTTE air force was a wake up call that shook the Indian defense establishment. They had forgotten Sri Lanka totally.

I guess the radar gaps would have been plugged and a fighter base at Kayathar can plug all the gaps from Trivandrum to Chennai, while the one in Sulur will do Trivandrum to say Mangalore. And of course it will project air cover all the way to say Maldives and beyond easily.

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 23 Dec 2010 11:05

Thanks Singha, the IOC to FOC bit makes sense, but I think Air defence of south India would be better suited by something like a Mig 29 or a couple of squadrons of MMRCA- most battles in the South would be fought over the sea and you need a fighter with long legs.

God forbid if a battle is fought over the mainland in South India, then that means we are already in deep trouble.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 11:13

tejas with drop tanks can manage the maritime attack job also. there are also threats like unmanned explosive filled drones and hijacked aircraft making a beeline for the scores of high value facilities in the peninsula like isro hassan, kalpakkam and so on... jihadi attack on maldives cannot be ruled out (their minister himself said on tv that many youths have disappeared to pak for training and remain untraceable).

to meet the PLAN carrier challenge thats 1-2 decades away the basic infra and training cycles have to start building up....IN cannot manage the job alone nor can car nicobar be expected to be the sole gatekeeper to gondor.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Dec 2010 12:26

himanshugoswami wrote:One thing I dont understand

the LCA is a fighter with limited range- what is the sense of basing it in TN? even if it is used as a point defense bird or as an interceptor, it still makes more sense to base it in places like Udhampur, Jaisalmer, bagdogra etc.

The commies and the porkis dont have carriers that can launch craft to reach TN. the only thing in commie arsenal that can reach TN are their flankers, and the Tejas would be dead meat against the flankers.

Or is it that IAF want to fully test this baby over the next few years before putting it in a station that would be directly in harms way?

Himanshu,

The IAF will place the assets where it sees fit. Nothing to do with the platform it self. Also by putting Combat assets in that part of the country it can improve the recruitment potential with the local population when they see it fly daily in their skys. It will generate a lot of excitement with the local children making them dream of flying the bird.

The Jingo wet dream would be to for every distric capital with a runway in India to host an small air show (IAF Only) which is free for all the Childern with both static and flying dispalys.

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 23 Dec 2010 13:09

^^^^ A tactical air force is not base bound. It can redeploy easily with minimum fuss. However, in peace time, an operational unit needs airspace to practice combat. Northern Indian skies are now quite congested with civil and military air traffic. It therefore makes sense to base fighter units south of the Vidhyas for peace time training.

sunilpatel · Post by **sunilpatel** » 23 Dec 2010 13:24

^^^
humm...and those are only initial squards which IAF plan to deploy in TN; it may be deployed to border in future.. ; where we all jingos like to see it

..after our IAF evaluate it performance till their satisfaction... .though now LCA is progressing well; still...still...never seen a comment from IAF; which shows full confidence in it...and can understand it will take time...but hope it will be there for sure...IAF is known for putting its confidense in blocks ( MKI is example); it fully evaluate and then order and place..so just wait & watch...our dreams will come true...

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 23 Dec 2010 14:05

the recruitment bit makes a lot of sense. I didnt think of that to be honest, but now that you mention it, seems like a sweet idea

I will certainly raise a toast the day the first LCA takes off with an IAF pilot at the controls (not the seconded pilots to NFTC but the regular squadron pilots) and will be keenly looking for news about how this little baby is continuously evolving into one heck of a potent fighing machine.

I just hope the Kaveri engine powers the Tejas some day soon!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2010 16:36

The Tejas has to enter squadron service before IAF fighter jocks get a chance to fly it off against other aircraft in the IAF and develop tactics based on its strengths and weaknesses. South India is a great place to put it into service because it can serve as the air defence fighter that is there to pick off adversary aircraft flying in from great distances in a future in which we can anticipate a lot of Indian Ocean littoral air forces having air refuelling capability as well as aircraft carriers in the PLAN. Until now the air threat to South India was small and our forces had to be concentrated in the North. That is changing.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Dec 2010 16:40

Shiv Ji,

Won't Tejas have a stint at TACADE. Like it was done with first of the MKIs. IMO once that is done onlee then will it reach FOC

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2010 16:53

Pratyush wrote:Shiv Ji,

Won't Tejas have a stint at TACADE. Like it was done with first of the MKIs. IMO once that is done onlee then will it reach FOC

I think - long before TACDE - IAF pilots will get a feel for what it can or cannot do. I'm also guessing that a lot of experience has to be built up in maintainability, reliability, spares supply, what percentage of the fleet can be kept flying at any given time etc. Ultimately these end up being as important as all the jingositic drooling we do about specs and performance.

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 23 Dec 2010 17:57

Talking about TACDE

How many squadrons of which all aircraft serve in TACDE?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 23 Dec 2010 18:30

this Aero India ,i hope i am able to see a demo or a wind tunnel model of tejas Mk-2 or even perhaps AMCA , hope it does not disappoint

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2010 18:50

Thinking of ops, don't forget the inflight refuelling probes.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 23 Dec 2010 19:13

abhinavjo wrote:Talking about TACDE

How many squadrons of which all aircraft serve in TACDE?

Trivia and slightly OT-

Guess what is the motto of TACDE?
.
.
.
तेजस्तेजस्विनामहम (Tejastejasvinamaham)

(Meaning- "Radiance in the Radiant am I") [Bhagawad Gita, Chptr 10, Shloka 36]

Bet Tejas is in right hands

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Dec 2010 19:28

^^^Or - I am the Glory of the Glorious.........(I've always loved this motto)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 19:46

what is the sanskrit for "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"? would make a good motto for our future SAC. the image of atomic electron orbits overlaid on a trident should impart the right message.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 23 Dec 2010 20:44

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

Kalo 'smi loka-ksaya-krt pravrddho
Lokan samahartum iha pravrttah