PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

arun · Post by **arun** » 21 Dec 2010 22:24

The Official Ministry of Defence press release on the Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF) aka theIndo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft :

Ministry of Defence 21-December, 2010 17:49 IST

India, Russia Sign Contract to Design and Develop FGFA

A Contract for Preliminary Design of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft was signed between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi here today. The Project involves design and development of a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft that will have advanced features such as stealth, supercruise, ultra-maneuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities.

The aircraft to be jointly developed is termed Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). PMF draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA Technology Demonstrator with modifications to meet IAF specifications which are much more stringent. The broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design & development of the PMF, its productionization and joint marketing to the third countries. Programme options include the design & development of a twin seater variant and the integration of an advanced engine with higher thrust at a later stage.

Today's contract is only the first in a series of such contracts which will cover different stages of this complex programme. The total cost including options and the value of production aircraft will make this the biggest Defence programme ever in the history of India involving production of over 200-250 aircraft.

The Contract was signed by Mr. A Isaykin, General Director, Rosoboronexport and Mr. M Pogosyan, General Director RAC MiG & Sukhoi from the Russian side and Mr. Ashok Nayak, Chairman, HAL and Mr. NC Agarwal, Director (D&D), HAL from the Indian side at Delhi.

SK/DM
(Release ID :68611)

From here:

PIB

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Dec 2010 22:27

K_Rohit wrote:^^^^
Is that not a typo? I would think it is Prospective Multi-Role Fighter...

Perspective does not make any sense whatsoever

it's a mistranslation of the russian word perspektivny, meaning future.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2010 22:28

duh! thanks Rahul M, now I know one desi who knows Russian. Now you are the chosen one to interpret!

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 21 Dec 2010 23:32

The aircraft to be jointly developed is termed Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). PMF draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA Technology Demonstrator with modifications to meet IAF specifications which are much more stringent. The broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design & development of the PMF, its productionization and joint marketing to the third countries. Programme options include the design & development of a twin seater variant and the integration of an advanced engine with higher thrust at a later stage.

From the above extract of the official release, it appears that PMF (INDIA) will have both single seat and twin seat variants in addition to russian version of Pakfa...

Besides, it says Indian(JV) version will have specification based on more stringent requirements of IAF

Third, it says JV version will be marketed for exports...

Reading last two, it looks somewhat contradictory as russia will not allow advanced version to be exported to third countries even assuming it allows to India

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Dec 2010 23:52

What is really interesting is the radar blocker they developed. Some sources on the net, says it is a british design actually. Not sure who has the patent?

But, there could be even finer material / surface RCS reduction. Those V joints on the blocker seems little blunt on each of the wedges leading to the inlet.

Did'nt LCA use honeycomb composite or woven composite? that actually gets the wave dispersion to internally consume (or dissipate as heat?). Definitely the rivets and skins needs a revisit.

Few important boosts to vetrivel team that it may advanced further on the mission computing? I am confused here who takes this role? or it is a joint mission baselined off existing Russkie design or vetrivel (MKI)?

Quite of a lot details needs to be known. These are the two major areas we have strength, and the areas we need to gain more are -

The AESA Irbis ? Radar
The core up thrusted engine
Rearward looking aspects? - band? stores?
360* TVC but reduced rearward RCS
Reduced IR signature again rearward.
Sensor fusion and passive tracking..
And the most talked about KS 172 and brahmos integraton?
Other "Prospective" stealth designed weapons.
IAF's specific Net centricity requirements.

Big list..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2010 08:54

I dont think it will be Irbis radar...- it will have to be a new purpose built product from Zhuk/tikhomirov. Irbis-E on Su35BM will likely be the stepping stone to the final soln. also the wing mounted L-band radar thing will likely be mounted on Su35/Su30 testbed and checked out.

added later - per wiki irbis is 900mm diameter and bars 960mm, so 6cm - i.e. 3 inch smaller. the APG77 is an ellipse around 1000mm wide and a bit less vertically. so maybe the Pafka nose can surely accomodate a 1000mm radar but its size and weight would be lot less than the humongous 750kg of the bars.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2010 11:34

Aroor sir has posted a scan on livefist of another article saying "yindu bad, china good, china have high speed trains and J-11 by reverse engineering apparently for free" and that "pakfa deal is just about paying money to develop the plane and then buying it at market price"

he promises to give more details on just how little HAL will contribute to the program...soon.

quite interesting to see what he will reveal...

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 22 Dec 2010 11:49

I have said this many time earlier - if we will not get exposure to any new area or areas we lag on, read AESA/stealth/engines the $35 B investment will be utterly useless. We will basically fund the PAK-FA and we will have absolutely no rights on PAK-FA.

Probably the Chinese have already realized it and it may be one of the factors their going the own way.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2010 11:58

or they are biding their time to let india pay for the new kit and then sign a quiet deal on the side for the 5th gen engines and aesa radar technology, while handling the airframe design, fcs and avionic systems themselves....they are patient hunters.

the GOI definitely needs to come clear on what is the indian IP constributions, workshare, revenue sharing from any 3rd party sales, ..... its a huge deal but shrouded in much more secrecy than MRCA.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2010 12:03

Perhaps its too early to say. But a lot of the technologies implimented for the PAk FA can also be ported to the AMCA. Which will help bring down the costs of the AMCA.

disha · Post by **disha** » 22 Dec 2010 12:04

P Chitkara wrote:I have said this many time earlier - if we will not get exposure to any new area or areas we lag on, read AESA/stealth/engines the $35 B investment will be utterly useless. We will basically fund the PAK-FA and we will have absolutely no rights on PAK-FA.

Probably the Chinese have already realized it and it may be one of the factors their going the own way.

Or the Russians do not want to partner with China. Simply because Chineese may reverse engineer and get itself a fifth generation plane just like J-11.

If you read the news, Russians want our avionics and we want their expertise in next generation plane design/manufacturing. The price tag is for developing an aircraft which will share some design and manufacturing elements and runs at least in 500 numbers. Yes, some IP will be shared and some IP will be purchased/licensed. There is IP in design and then there is IP in manufacturing and kitting up the platform as well. This will keep both the Russian and Indian design and manufacturing houses happy and will defray the costs and decrease the risks. Further only Americans have proved that they can design and manufacture a "fifth generation" currently. What Chineese have is a paper plane, Indians have more tangible currently on their hand.

As for Aroor (and his lesser clone Motorham Chindit)., they are totally clueless. Mouthing inanities., like comparing high-speed trains with aircraft. Just as an example, Russians do not have a high speed rail line and still have successfully fielded PAK-FA. What is the comparison?

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 22 Dec 2010 12:34

FGFA Not What It Seems

Do we always hear bad news from our FREE PRESS?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2010 12:40

The way I see it PMFA/FGFA will be a JV like Brahmos where both sides will chip in their part and India will customise its PMFA to its need and Russia to its requirement.

Since this a 50-50 JV what ever they export based on white list created revenues will be shared equally by HAL and Sukhoi , the fact that HAL will be earning fifty percent revenues exporting FGFA will do a lot good to their competitiveness,manuf/production and work culture and eventually we would see greater indiginous systems and component on PMFA , this is a decade long project.

I will not look too much into what Shiv has to say on this since he will probably get not much from his "source" and recently he has been sensationalising through his blog like Gorshkov Redux and problems with 29K

Disha , Russia does have high speed rail line Sapsan and last week they started St Petersburg and Helsinki high speed service.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Dec 2010 12:46

ah, manoj joshi. he should have retired in the 90's.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 22 Dec 2010 12:51

Coz that kind of news sells like hot cakes. Pun aside; our in-house organizations are not too adept at PR unlike the private ones.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 22 Dec 2010 13:18

What I can see is that the contract is segregated into various sub-contracts of design / development of su-systems / manufacturing etc.. May be it is due to the desire of Indians not to part with the whole contract money in a single tranche/single contract because of the russians' track record. May be the Russians also can leverage a bit by charging market price for what is not designed by Indians/off the shelf sales like engines, AESA Radar etc...and Indians can remove/put market price for those avionics suits and other items which they produce themselves from the contract value.

By signing the first contract, they have fixed the price for the re-design of the plane - to be done in 18 months. They would sign similar contracts in future for the rest of the works, adding up to the whole work/contract.

In short, these protracted negotiations and elaborate schemes to give out money in small lots could be to avoid suction of Indian money by the Russian black hole, and the chances of them still coming out with more and more demands in future, avoid uncertainties in exchange rates etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2010 13:40

I am seeing technology building blocks for AMCA derisking and various under-the-table tech transfers as the main benefits of FGFA rather than anything major in the FPGA pgm itself.

the american lobbies will perhaps make a lot of noise now to flush out details and what is happening by creating a controversy and asking the GOI to "show and tell" . if there are serious goodies (like the nuke sub help) being planned in aerospace arena, GOI should carefully hide them and show other believeable psyops/canards to keep the americans and chinese worried.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 22 Dec 2010 15:31

Mail today is a third rate tabloid news paper, I count even TOI in this league. They can't have enough circulation without having news like this or a bikini picture in the front page.

Most of the Indian news paper journalist's are in american companies payroll.

http://epaper.mailtoday.in/epaperhome.a ... e=22122010

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 22 Dec 2010 15:38

narayana wrote:FGFA Not What It Seems

Do we always hear bad news from our FREE PRESS?

To me this looks like an article written only for the sake of criticising HAL. It does not have any substance at all, does it ever quote any contract clause from where it can be inferred that HAL will be mute spectator. He has just quoted from media reports, that's it.
I don't know where are the standards of journalism going in this country, presenting such baseless allegations will constitute as libel in other countries - too bad our babus don't pay heed to such reports.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Dec 2010 16:54

We must take all recent (lifafa?) news about lack of capability and commitment in domestic aerospace industry in the context of offset issues with MMRCA. All foreign suppliers would like as few offsets as possible and one of the frequently used excuses is the lack of any depth in Indian indutry to be able to absorb tech or produce anything worthwhile (in offset $ terms).

As we get closer to the MMRCA contract, this sort of reporting is bound to increase.

abrahavt · Post by **abrahavt** » 22 Dec 2010 17:17

narayana wrote:FGFA Not What It Seems

Do we always hear bad news from our FREE PRESS?

Here is moron who thinks reverse engineering is the way to go. Someone who knows nothing about the chinese planes like the rest of world. Does he stop to think why no one sells to the chinese anymore?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2010 17:54

Manoj Joshi is the author of that Mail Today article. Manoj Joshi writes in a rather clever manner. But what he actually writes does not necessarily represent the lily white truth although the way he writes it is difficult to disprove unless you dig into little quibbling and seemingly off topic details - like arguing with Arundhati Roy.

For example the article, which is barely readable in the size that Shiv Aroor has copy-pasted.
For example he argues (para 4) "The Chinese have considerable experience in reverse engineering ...(perfectly true) "
and he adds
"But India has been unable to do that though it has paid for licence manufacture"

The little white lie is that India has not attempted to break out of licence manufacture into reverse engineering as the Chinese have done. If India has been stupid in not doing that it is for want of trying, and not "inability" And why has India not attempted to break free from license manufacture into reverse engineering? Because of quality issues and the fact that licence terms lapse if we do that. The Chinese have not given a damn about that and there is no proof that their much vaunted J-11 is actually as good as the original. Apart from that it appears that the Chinese - unsatisfied with their J-11s have ordered more from Russia while Russia is furious. And the engines have been a disaster with China ordering hundreds from Russia.

But wait!! Never mind all that..

Do you see the little rhetorical/journalistic trick here. By comparing India with a concocted image of China, people who might disagree are left looking stupid arguing about whether the statements about China are true or not while the main point - the scathing indictment of Indians passes because of a typical Arundhati Roy/Wendy Doniger type trick. Amazing characters these people - and they need our admiration.

Indians like Manoj Joshi utilize the pre-existing readynmade "dhoti-shivering" fear that Indians have had about China (ever since 1962) to pass off all sorts of dubious and debatable stories about Chinese greatness only to highlight Indian stupidty, weakness and smallness. But we are Indians only, and Manoj Joshi, like all Indians, is one among my brothers and sisters. If he asks me to curse India and shiver in my dhoti, I will do it. Yes sir. Thank you sir. Now wait for Shiv Aroor to post a more readable font when he picks up this story.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2010 18:01

I really want DRDO/IITs/IIScs to participate in the NG version of AlGaN based t/r modules for the PAK-FA aesa radar. DRDO tech journals have already indicated Indian study into this niche area of research. This is like a quantum leap. Thinking of it, what ever happened to quantum computing in the defence world?

Raytheon is all set for nanowires demo soon on their advanced NG versions of stealth. It would be really stupid of us to keep ignoring advancements made on the baseline versions of F35s and Raptors, and khans' new areas of NG thoughts.

The reduced IR signature of the AL41 engines must be learned.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 22 Dec 2010 19:09

narayana wrote:FGFA Not What It Seems
India will foot the bill to develop Russian jet and then buy it at Market Price

Most of the article is not clearly visible because of poor posting by Mr Shiv Aroor. But I can say that the heading seems possible to me. (Not saying it is).

My theory about it is:
This thing about buying the aircraft at market price is quite possible and also reasonable considering that a independent Indo-Russo body will be formed by to govern the FGFA (like Bhramos). That means both the countries will have to place orders for the aircraft to this body at MP and than the profits generated by this body will be shared by the two countries in the agreed ratio (i.e 50:50). This means if Russia places order for 500 of these aircrafts and India of 300 than India will get profits generated by its order as well as that of the Russian order. Speaking in a business sense it makes a perfect sense as both countries will benefit equally. Also note that financially both the countries are spending equal amount thus both deserve to earn equally from the venture.

Also the author can't claim that India is merely sponsoring half of the project for a smaller portion of work. He is forgetting that Indian side cannot contribute 50% of the work in such a short span of time which I think both the countries knew about it when Sukhoi proposed the aircraft (to India)in 2005. He is also forgetting that India is getting equal rights and full technology access which is fair bargain. May be he needs to read about the JSF.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Dec 2010 19:56

Now now manajo Joshi has come a long way

He has dropped the Prof

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2010 22:47

Russia, India Link Up On Aircraft Production

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Dec 2010 23:36

One thing from a contractual perspective is the prospective 2nd and 3rd version may so different to the first version (tech /features). Now if the contract says everything is base-lined off the 1st version, then we may miss the baseline features in the ver 3 or above. What are the details here in terms of many technology that the Russkies may develop in the future versions, or it is entirely on a future agreement if IAF feel that it may need a tech toy that Russkies develop independently from FGFA per contract? trying to see the details of the scope here.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 23 Dec 2010 00:08

Pratik_S wrote: Most of the article is not clearly visible because of poor posting by Mr Shiv Aroor. But I can say that the heading seems possible to me. (Not saying it is).

Here is the full article in text format.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 23 Dec 2010 00:21

^^^ Same source

On the other hand, Indian processes are opaque and it is the taxpayer who is eventually landed up with a massive bill. Take the Su-30 MKI, from $32 million per piece in 2000, we are now paying $90 million per copy even though they are allegedly being made from raw materials in India. But it is no secret that India imports all key assemblies and the engine (40 per cent by value of the aircraft).

Thats yet another Joshiji's brian-f@rt. As far as I know with the interaction I had with some sources at HAL Nashik, Out of 20 MKIs scheduled for manufacturing per year, 3-5 are imported off the shelf, 10-12 are kit built, 3-7 are manufactured indegeniously with 100% indigenous RM and assemblies. Theres even photographs in the receiption at HAL Nashik of first 100% indegenous MKI rolling out few years back.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2010 06:47

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... pak-fa.htm

..the low observable characteristics of this attack aircraft are said to be markedly inferior to the all-around stealth of the F-22 air supremacy fighter.
.. If these production objectives are met, the United States might wind up with the world's third largest fleet of stealth fighters, after India and Russia.
..It seems probable that China declined to participate in this project given a belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation than did China.
..an arguably superior Chinese steath fighter might be expected to take to the skies not too long thereafter.
..Production of large numbers of PAK FA by India would place Pakistan in a rather difficult position, unless it purchased similar numbers of stealth fighters from China.
..

Some/all of these may have to be rebuffed sooner or later.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 23 Dec 2010 07:29

The chinese are behind in engine tech ... and system integration.

They are doing well in defense electronics. But there is no way they are going to come up with a "better" aircraft.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2010 08:42

they havent even put a AL31 equivalent into regular service and racked up the hours. 5th gen engine in F119/F135 class is a big challenge and even Russia with all its expertise has its task cut out to make a fuel sipping but clean and extremely powerful new engine. I recall a interview with AL31F designer who talked off the hellacious difficulty they had in finding the right mix of materials to make the seals between the TVC nozzle and main part of AL31 engine....nothing is easy in bleeding edge engine field. the chinese will have to spend a lot of time and money and find the right answers or somehow steal whatever they can and try to ease the path.

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Dec 2010 09:09

There was detailed interview with HAL chairman posted on BRF which detailed that all the raw material, lot of assemblies will continue to come from Russia for "all" MKIs

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2010 11:50

There have been several critical points made by a host of commentators,ranging from Russian diplomats to Indian aviation experts/def. analysts,etc. on the scope and range of Indian participation in the FGFA/PFMA or whatever it is going to be called.

Yes,we have not built a fully fledged fighter 100% indigenous at all and not even the LCA is indigenous to the extent the HF-24 was.Nevertheless,we can contribute significantly with our IT and other skills in the realm of "software",our strongpoint,whereas the Russians have their vast range in design,metallurgy,avionics,wepaonry,aero-engine tech,etc.Brahmos has shown how the two nations can complement each other in a JV successfully and there is no reason why the Indo-Russian JV for a 5th-gen fighter to meet both Indian and Russian needs will not be as successful.Barring hard cash,which we are throwing into the ring,so to speak,a team of our aerospace engineers will be working in Russia on the project,where both single and twin-engined fighters are required for the IAF.With TOT being part of the project,it will give us a deep insight into aircraft engineering and design that will be of invaluable benefit for our future endeavours.

Russia gave us first peck at the JV cherry because all its experience with China has seen the PRC try and steal secrets and illegally reverse-engineer the same and then competes with Russia in exports! Secondly,the Russian def. establishment will never sell the Chinese their latest wares because of the deep suspicion of Chinese military intentions.Many years ago at a Russian diplo. function,a short film was shown of invasions of Russia from the "east" and the heroic Russian resistance against it.This is deeply ingrained in the minds of Russians,also remembering the clash they had with China during Cold War times.While Russsia would prefer to have a three-way security arranegment for Asia between China ,India and itself through the Shanghai group,the limits of its relationship with China remain.

wig · Post by **wig** » 23 Dec 2010 14:26

the tribune of chandigarh has this article on FGFA
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101223/main6.htm
Fifth Gen Aircraft to match US F-22 Raptor

In a clear indication of balancing out the global ‘power equation’, India formally signed a deal with Russia to co-develop and co-produce a next generation fighter aircraft here today. This comes close on the heels of a series of multi-billion dollar contracts with the US for the supply of transport planes, reconnaissance aircrafts
and VVIP jets.

Costing nearly $ 100 million (Rs 500 crore approx) a piece, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) will technologically match the US developed F-22 Raptor — that costs $ 330 million a piece. At present, the USA is the only country having such technology and it does not share it with its closest allies like the UK.

For India it will be biggest defence programme in its history with almost $ 36 billion (Rs 1,80,000 crore) being pumped in on development, design and production spread across two decades starting now.

The FGFA will be the IAF’s frontline fighter from 2020 onwards and some 300 of these fighters which will cost $ 30 billion (Rs 1,50,000 crore). This alone will be nearly three times the much-hyped $ 11 billion deal for the purchase of 126 fighters being currently bid by six global companies. Sources said once the design is set, the total cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development, flight testing and the like has been pegged at around $ 11 billion, with both sides putting in $5.50 billion each.

The FGFA will have advanced features such as stealth, super-cruise, ultra-manoeuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, enhanced situational awareness, internal carriage of weapons and Network Centric Warfare capabilities.

A contract for preliminary design of the plane was signed here yesterday between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Russian firms Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi. The contract is for $ 295 million and the scientists and engineers have been given 18 months to come up with a design.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2010 15:05

Chief editor of the Tribune is Raj Chengappa,formerly of India Today and author of the excellent book on India's nuclear/missile strategy.

This report explains the huge cost invovled in the project and as expressed ages ago,should be our foremost priority for the IAF,because this aircraft being acquired in large numbers,almost 30% of the IAF's future inventory,will ensure our air domination of the region just as the Flankers are doing now,for the next decade 2020+.Therefore regardless of TOT,cost should be a key determining factor for the MMRCA choice.One should also peg the MMRCA choice with that of the SU-30MKIs we are buying,both cost and performance in comparison.There is little point in throwing away hard money for a costly 4++ gen. aircraft inferior to a 5th-gen one only a little more expensive.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Dec 2010 16:25

don't forget that the NCW capabilities we will learn from 'expensive' MMRCA contenders will find its way into the PFMA-MKI

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2010 23:56

NCW capabilities are not transferable and they are doctrine specific. We have to develop our own per our requirements.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 24 Dec 2010 05:25

LIVEFIST COLUMN: An IAF View Of The FGFA Partnership

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 24 Dec 2010 05:46

Gaur wrote:LIVEFIST COLUMN: An IAF View Of The FGFA Partnership

From above link...

If communications between IAF and ROE were ever declassified (like the Wikileaks, maybe some day!), the nation would have quite a different picture of how it is to deal with the Russians.

what is he saying..?