Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Dec 2008 22:12

ramana wrote:N^3, FYEO!
anupmisra wrote:

The next panel should show the pandu beating the daylights out of terrorist with his lathi.

bart · Post by **bart** » 08 Dec 2008 22:19

Is it me or does the terrorist in that pic look suspiciously like our good friend the Musharrador?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 Dec 2008 22:52

NY times oped (Sorry if already posted) remarks about hyphenation:

"Yet the reaction of the world’s news media was to rely on the outmoded idea of Pakistan-India hyphenation — as if a thriving and prosperous democracy of over a billion people must be compared only to an imploded state that is having to be bailed out by the I.M.F. Was Pakistan to blame, asked many pundits, or was India at fault because of its treatment of minority groups?

and says Asif Ali Zardari lie (that he did not think the terrorists came from Pakistan) would be funny if it were not tragic.

Posting in full: They hate Us

They Hate Us — and India Is Us
By PATRICK FRENCH

London

AS an open, diverse and at times chaotic democracy, India has long been a target for terrorism. From the assassination of Mohandas Gandhi in 1948 to the recent attacks in Mumbai, it has faced attempts to change its national character by force. None has yet succeeded. Despite its manifest social failings, India remains the developing world’s most successful experiment in free, plural, large-scale political collaboration.

The Mumbai attacks were transformative, because in them, unlike previous outrages in India, the rich were caught: not only Western visitors in the nation’s magnificent financial capital but also Indian bankers, business owners and socialites. This had symbolic power, as the terrorists knew it would.

However, I recently saw a televised forum in which members of the public vented their fury against India’s politicians for their failure to act, and it soon became apparent the victims were poor as well as rich. One survivor, Shameem Khan — instantly identifiable by his name and his embroidered cap as a Muslim — told how six members of his extended family had been shot dead. Still in shock, he said: “A calamity has fallen on my house. What shall I do?” His neighbors had helped pay for the funeral. Like most of India’s 150 million Muslims, Mr. Khan is staunchly patriotic. The city’s Muslim Council refused to let the terrorists be buried in its graveyards.

When these well-planned attacks unfolded, it was clear to anyone with experience of India that they were not homegrown, and almost certainly originated from Pakistan. Yet the reaction of the world’s news media was to rely on the outmoded idea of Pakistan-India hyphenation — as if a thriving and prosperous democracy of over a billion people must be compared only to an imploded state that is having to be bailed out by the I.M.F. Was Pakistan to blame, asked many pundits, or was India at fault because of its treatment of minority groups?

The terrorists themselves offered little explanation, and made no clear demands. Yet even as the siege continued, commentators were making chilling deductions on their behalf: their actions were because of American foreign policy, or Afghanistan, or the harassment of Indian Muslims. Personal moral responsibility was removed from the players in the atrocity. When officials said that the killers came from the Pakistani terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba, it was taken as proof that India’s misdeeds in the Kashmir Valley were the cause.

These misdeeds are real, as are India’s other social and political failings (I recently met a Kashmiri man whose father and sister had died at the hands of the Indian security forces). But there is no sane reason to think Lashkar-e-Taiba would shut down if the situation in Kashmir improved. Its literature is much concerned with establishing a caliphate in Central Asia, and murdering those who insult the Prophet. Its leader, Hafiz Saeed, who lives on a large estate outside Lahore bought with Saudi Money, goes about his business with minimal interference from the Pakistani government.

Lashkar-e-Taiba is part of the International Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders (the Qaeda franchise). Mr. Saeed’s hatreds are catholic — his bugbears include Hindus, Shiites and women who wear bikinis. He regards democracy as “a Jewish and Christian import from Europe,” and considers suicide attacks to be in accordance with Islam. He has a wider strategy: “At this time our contest is Kashmir. Let’s see when the time comes. Our struggle with the Jews is always there.” As he told his followers in Karachi at a rally in 2000: “There can’t be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them — cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy.” In short, he has an explicit political desire to create a state of war between the religious communities in India and beyond, and bring on the endgame.

Like other exponents of Islamist extremism, he has a view of the world that does not tolerate doubt or ambiguity: his opponents are guilty, and must be killed. I have met other radicals like Mr. Saeed, men who live in a dimension of absolute certainty and have contempt for the moral relativism of those who seek to excuse them. To achieve their ends, it is necessary to indoctrinate boys in the hatred of Hindus, Americans and Jews, and dispatch them on suicide missions. It is unlikely that any of the militants who were sent from Karachi to Mumbai — young men from poor rural backgrounds whose families were paid for their sacrifice — had ever met a Jew before they tortured and killed Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivka, who was several months pregnant, at the Mumbai Jewish center.

America’s so-called war on terror has been, in many respects, a catastrophe. In Pakistan, it has been chronically mishandled, leading to the radicalization of areas in the north that were previously peaceful. Yet links between the military, the intelligence services and the jihadis have remained intact: Lashkar-e-Taiba is merely one of a number of extremist organizations that continues to function.

The prime solution to the present crisis is to force the closing of terrorist training outfits in Pakistan, and apply the law to those who organize and finance operations like the Mumbai massacres. Hafiz Saeed and other suspects should be sent to India to stand trial. The remark by Pakistan’s president, Asif Ali Zardari (a man whose history of shady business dealing makes him demonstrably unfit for high, or even low, office), that he did not think the terrorists came from Pakistan would be funny if it were not tragic.

The United States gives around $1 billion a year in military aid to Islamabad; that is leverage. It does the people of Pakistan no favors for Washington to allow their leaders to continue with the strategy of perpetual diversion, asking India to be patient while denying the true nature of the immediate terrorist threat. I received this e-mail message recently from a friend in Karachi: “Nowhere can get more depressing than Pakistan these days — barring some African failed states and Afghanistan.”

Patrick French is the author, most recently, of “The World Is What It Is: The Authorized Biography of V. S. Naipaul.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2008 22:56

Looking at the Delhi elections, there is very little chance that the INC will get booted out in Maharastra. Might even get full majority and not need the Pawar gang. People like their terrorist supporters to rule them. Maybe its Stockholm syndrome. But htey have spoken. Its only the chatterati who think they can make a difference over caste and votebank.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 08 Dec 2008 23:22

60 years of indoctrination and absolute stockholm syndrome, ramana

the next strike on india will be a wmd one, and even then india will not wake up. we are decadent weak, cowardly civilization, able to continue in decadence because of dwindling band of soldiers who fight.
and then like forefathers, indian civilization will wither again in front of barbarian medieval arabian creed.

this is a worthless country, and worthless civilization to be honest in several ways. only redeeming feature are those who still fight for it but even they are to be political correct and otherwise they will be attacked for not being secular.

india will never survive unless the left and generations of left liberals are ruthlessly stopped whatever measures required. otherwise millions will die to preserve these elites worthless idealogy and their moral cowardice.

in a few years, LET will go to wmd level. we have shown already our absolute impotence.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Dec 2008 23:28

Vikram_S wrote:60 years of indoctrination and absolute stockholm syndrome, ramana

the next strike on india will be a wmd one, and even then india will not wake up. we are a decadent effete civilization, able to continue in decadence because of dwindling band of soldiers who fight.
and then like forefathers, indian civilization will wither again in front of barbarian medieval arabian creed.

this is a worthless country, and worthless civilization to be honest in several ways. only redeeming feature are those who still fight for it but even they are to be political correct and otherwise they will be attacked for not being secular.

india will never survive unless the left and generations of left liberals are ruthlessly stopped whatever measures required. otherwise millions will die to preserve these elites worthless idealogy.

in a few years, LET will go to wmd level. we have shown already our absolute impotence.

I had a chat with a guy in the weekend. He actually admitted that India will have to take hits and attack for the next 50 years. He said what can we do. Educated middle class have similar views.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Dec 2008 23:33

When all is lost; have hope -- this country has given us Vijayanagar; Shivaji and Gobind Singh in our darkest days. India will live me must live.

We will fight -- we will win. Modi is yet to make is mark on the national scene; miracles happen -- have hope and go all out to win -- it is our time, we will not be denied.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 08 Dec 2008 23:33

Vikram_S wrote:60 years of indoctrination and absolute stockholm syndrome, ramana

the next strike on india will be a wmd one, and even then india will not wake up. we are decadent weak, cowardly civilization, able to continue in decadence because of dwindling band of soldiers who fight.
and then like forefathers, indian civilization will wither again in front of barbarian medieval arabian creed.

this is a worthless country, and worthless civilization to be honest in several ways. only redeeming feature are those who still fight for it but even they are to be political correct and otherwise they will be attacked for not being secular.

india will never survive unless the left and generations of left liberals are ruthlessly stopped whatever measures required. otherwise millions will die to preserve these elites worthless idealogy and their moral cowardice.

in a few years, LET will go to wmd level. we have shown already our absolute impotence.

Your post is right up there with the rhona-dhona witnessed by the forum when Sonia and MMS came into power

The people voted for the congress in their state - like it or lump it.

If you think India is a worthless country, you are free to pack up and leave

.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 08 Dec 2008 23:34

what is there to admit, acharya? it is the reality.

7 century of genocide at hands of ...ooooppps....mars, but godhra and babri and modi speeches are very bad...becuase of which you can get killed again in india. to speak against "..."= death. that is ok.

and now we are coming to 7 decade of independence, idiot indians elect same leaders who handed them for slaughter to pakistan and bangladesh. north east is now mini bangladesh for congress votebank. india did not even take war seriously and let pakistan get away and away till pak developed nukes. which group in power? same one.

while they have SPG cover and get poor indian to die for them to protect them, other indians can die like worthless rabble. SPG budget last year - 180 crores. NSG budget? 159 crore.

indians want to be treated like this. its indians nature, bootlicking creatures. to be licking the boots of "secular" elite - who are "now" angry because ..."taj got attacked" (not CST) while elite party in 5 stars.

india is smart, india is now regional superpower. It is democratic. i am now sure 700 years back similar worthless f**** were supporting similar groups while those who wanted to protect their people were called war monger, fascist, and fundamentalist.

and we all know what happened then. it is happening ALL OVER AGAIN, and still worthless fool are voting for INC. and rest of us will get killed for these idiots sake.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Dec 2008 23:40

Vikram_S wrote:
india is smart, india is now regional superpower. democratic.

Was; till 2004. After that the gunga din's who were extremely uncomfortable with the mantle of power got to work.

But there is always hope Frodo Baggins; hope....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Dec 2008 23:43

Check this out

Dear Friends
Please read carefully thru their agenda (babri masjid!). Can we frame
a response that projects them as supporters of terrorists and a direct
threat to America?

India-Pakistan Peace Vigil for Mumbai, San Francisco, Dec 6th
Saturday December 6, 2008 from 3:00pm - 6:00pm
San Francisco City Hall steps

1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place 1 Dr. Carlton B. Goodlett Place , aka
Polk St., between McAllister and Grove St
San Francisco, California 94102
Category: Politics

Join Indians, Pakistanis and other citizens of conscience who are coming
together to condemn the horrific violence that befell Mumbai on Nov
26, 2008, mourn the victims of the attacks and express solidarity with
the survivors.

Join us also to
Demand justice for the victims and a fair investigation
Stand in solidarity with other victims of terrorism and war in South Asia
Reject the jingoism and anti-Muslim sentiment in the wake of the attacks
Build bridges between Indian and Pakistani people
Demand that the US stop bombing civilian populations in Pakistan
Urge the Indian and Pakistani Governments to work together to address
root causes

Bring signs, candles, and energy!

We will also observe the 16th anniversary of the demolition of the
Babri Mosque in India, which unleashed a wave of violence and has
permanently terrorized the minority communities in India.

We will gather in front of San Francisco City Hall.

The Event PRESS RELEASE can be read here:
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddkdhzkn_14fqhcz7fd

Co-Sponsored By:

Friends of South Asia
Indian Muslim Council
Pakistan Science and Engineering Foundation | http://paksef.org
Association for India's Development, Berkeley
SA Relief | http://sarelief.com

For more information visit:

http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org
mail[at]friendsofsouthasia.org
____________________________________________________________________
One response and challenge to FOSA

Calling SANSAD, FOSA: prove you are South Asians for Peace

This is a call to SANSAD and FOSA:

You have called yourself South Asians and have claimed to work for
peace.

Time has come for you to prove yourself.

Organize protests in Pakistan and ask the government there to

- ban Jamaat-ud-Dawah (current name for Lashkar-e-Toiba)

- remove support Dawod Ibrahim, Masood Azhar and Yusuf Muzammil

- bring them to trial

I urge FOSA and SANSAD to organize protests againsts fundamentalists in
Pakistan.

You have been very active in putting pressure on India and the Indian
community.

Time is come to put pressure on Pakistan. Support from you will support
President Zardari's efforts.

You have members and contacts in Pakisan. You work with other groups
with clout in Pakistan.

Prove yourself. Your time has come.

Yashwant

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 08 Dec 2008 23:45

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=643776

"Pakistan shuts down LeT", so that is the response in 48 hours to India's "threat" -- looks like pakis have checkmated India's response for now.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 08 Dec 2008 23:46

sanku,

1998-2004 was exception, not the rule.

before that? all the way to 90's and then after 2004?

that is actually true india. true india is gunga din. only exception are army/forces, and one day they will also fall. like they fell many years back.

so indian public: "come kill me, here master, i bend over".

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2008 23:48

Dont let your feelings for progress turn to despair. The need is to study what the people who vote think and deliver that. The other things can happen only after that primary need is met.
Unfortunately experts were misled by the outpouring of grief and outrage to the Mumbai terrorist attacks and did not reflect on what the voting public thinks and feels. Hence the dichotomy of the people's verdict.

I predict that even Maharashtra will re-elect the INC for that is what they want. And that idiot Raj Thackery unless there is a game changer. Parochialism truimphs over natioanliasm in India except when a great person is the leader.

Yes the TSP has shot its last conventonal bolt. It has to be much larger event next time. Last night an IM from Mumbai asked me what will be the response. I said nothing as Mumbai spirt is till there which means no need to do anything. He was shocked as he said what about the audacity of the terrorist attack doesn't that justify a response? I had no answer to him. Soon after our host rushed in to say TSP has arrested some LeT folks. My friend said its most likely to provide safe a haven in case India attacks those camps.

And even after the WMD the UPA type DIE will ensure that there is no to little capability with the armed forces to respond except maram-patti for the victims. And the armed forces leaders will bicker and make sure the duddest of them gets promoted to ensure they will never have to carry the fight to the other side. They will reject every weapon system so that they are in perpetual state of unreadiness. And the babus with the politicians will skim of the budget outlay and make sure the barest minimum gets procured and that too without spares. So they malfunction. I havent heard one clear story about why the Carbine jammed. And they call it Sten and Sterling. Which one is it? And life goes on.

Its TSP that will launch the attack and our chatterati will divert/mislead the discussion by talking about Indian Muslims. What have Indian Muslims got to do with a TSP attack? While claiming to protect IM interests these experts/traitors are implying IM are a collobarator with TSP. Which is not the case. And BJP will still refuse to see in this light. In a divided society you need to build common causes and make sure the divisions are not increased. But BJP doesnt see it like that and INC revels in that. That is the crux of the problem of Indian polity.

One party(INC) survives by uniting the people against the other party (BJP) and the other party is in state of denial and doesnt kow how to build a coaltion due to its own reasons. And the nation suffers as Fareed Zakaria says "India is a strong society with a weak state." How long before the society breaks down?

Soory while trying to answer you I went on a rant.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 08 Dec 2008 23:49

acharya

what is the surprise?

"yashwant" in the mail still has indian visa. his indian nri hindu friends still talk to him. so what does he care for his idealogy?

16th century babri mosque - what a bad thing! what about the thousands of other mosques, "some people" burnt down, sold people into slavery, committed genocide over?

that is ok.

each time anyone even talks politely to someone of SAJA/FOSA types and gives them social leeway. we are the actual culprit. they should be ostracized completely.

out of mind, out of space. each and every fool who turn up for that candlelit vigil should be treated the same way.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 08 Dec 2008 23:54

ramana,

why be soft on IMs? could mumbai attack have occurred without IM help? and wearing black band and making strong statement = all they did before on malegoan and their total arrogant stand on hindu religious places?
where were these IMs before Mumbai attack? they were on TV talking of evil BJP and talking down anyone who dared have his own point of view. for every kalam there are dozen javed akhtar. that is the reality of india

that is true weakness. the desire to somehow bring "everyone together" and onus is still on the victim. so the victim goes to the oppressor and begs him to support him.

in US, nobody went begging to USM asking for "standing together" after 9/11. onus was on them.

onus is STILL on them. it is only in india, after suffering so much at hands of "....." we demonstrate absolute stockholm syndrome when it comes to M issue.

obviously their leaders will exploit the issue. and they have for decades ever since this "modern" India was formed. before that, what they did, less said the better. we all know the reality

so frankly, BJP etc should not give a damn for what M think. or in fact what hindu think. it is not BJPs religion to save hindus. even they can only do so much for a worthless people

if ordinary hindus want to die like cockroaches then it is the way things are. that includes all of us in india. those who can leave, should leave to different countries which will at least fight and appreciate the fight or will at least protect their people

instead hindus will wail over iraq, and talk and talk about it while hindus die like ..... in india. that is ok. but look at bad, evil US in iraq, bring candles.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 08 Dec 2008 23:58

Vikram_S wrote:why be soft on IMs? could mumbai attack have occurred without IM help?

No guarantee that those who helped were IMs. Due to the porous border, visa overstayers and the INC's efforts to give ration cards to everyone, they can very well be Pakistanis or Bangladeshis who moved here in the last 30 years or so.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Dec 2008 00:02

If one thought that Pak would hand over the suspects they've "caught",then another case of self deception has happened.True to form,the tamasha spoken of has started,with Pak "snubbing" India saying that it will not hand over any suspects.This makes a mockery of the demands by India and the US.After clearly proving that the terror attacks originated and were planned in Pak by its own citizens,Pak still is ruled by the military and they are playing ture to forrm.In fact,they actually think that they're winning the war with the west and India,as the Taliban are now entrenched in 70% of the country,threatening to encircle and lay seige to Kabul.The sad fact that talks are taking place between the anti-human Taliban and the Karzai govt. under pressure from the west,is disgrace upon the world's conscience.When even reputed Pak journalists condemn the Taliban and the excuses made for it in their own country,citing the despicable acts against women and others by these depraved Islamiists,who will bring back a mediaevalform of Sharia tyranny of the human race.The western nations who are now advcoating a compromise with the Taliban are actually aiding this monster of Islamist fundamentalism and will actually aid Pakistan in once more acquiring Afghanistan by default.

India now is left with few options.Pak is playing out this tamasha to stop western action against it.India should most vigorously pursue the diplomatic campaign against Pak,demand stoppage of all military supplies to the TSP,stoppage of economic aid,misused by Musharrat to build up Pak's military and fund terror,whilst keeping our powder dry.If P{ak continues to snub India,then the snapping of diplomatic relations with Pak and the total sealing of the border must be done.Stringent anti-terror laws must be immediatly pushed through and convicted terrorists executed swiftly.Simultaneously,plans for a covert counter-terror campaign against Pak should begin,with specific targets to undermine Pak's terror camps plus sabotage against key military facilities in a crisisshould be undertaken.India can also play Pak at its own game,in fact Pak is even more vulnerable fighting on all fronts on a daily basis.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 00:03

vera_k wrote:
Vikram_S wrote:why be soft on IMs? could mumbai attack have occurred without IM help?
No guarantee that those who helped were IMs. Due to the porous border, visa overstayers and the INC's efforts to give ration cards to everyone, they can very well be Pakistanis or Bangladeshis who moved here in the last 30 years or so.

i would laugh but seeing the predictability of this response, you just proved the point. please get off the denial
is dawood a bangladeshi? do you think d-company which did the original mumbai attacks and is still supporting the ISI, bangladeshi? wake up pls. 99% of the SIMI activists who have attacked india are IMs.
there is hardly day without news of one or the other IM who does something like this. and this is not anything new either. it has always been there, and glossed over with bollywood "mughal e azam" and spin speak in india.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2008 00:07

Philip wrote: India now is left with few options. Pak is playing out this tamasha to stop western action against it. India should most vigorously pursue the diplomatic campaign against Pak, demand stoppage of all military supplies to the TSP, stoppage of economic aid, misused by Musharrat to build up Pak's military and fund terror, whilst keeping our powder dry. If Pak continues to snub India,then the snapping of diplomatic relations with Pak and the total sealing of the border must be done. Stringent anti-terror laws must be immediatly pushed through and convicted terrorists executed swiftly. Simultaneously,plans for a covert counter-terror campaign against Pak should begin,with specific targets to undermine Pak's terror camps plus sabotage against key military facilities in a crisis should be undertaken. India can also play Pak at its own game,in fact Pak is even more vulnerable fighting on all fronts on a daily basis.

yesterday Zeenews in Hindi had the same options being considered viz: bring Intl pressure, cut ties to TSP and finally strikes on TSP.

I think all these should be pursued and covert ops as Philp suggested. Also IWT waters can also be slowed down for other reasons like repair and maintenence. And TSP agents in Mid-East should be targeted. It has to be a war on many fronts.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 00:15

last bit.

in latest paper- MJ Akbar says, face muslim terrorists, after all we faced hindu terrorists in assam. tell me, when did ULFA fight saying we are hindu? they did not. but this is what your moderate face of IM says. and he can gets away with it. shabana azmi who owns many flats purchased from "x", moans about bad hindus not giving IM houses. she also get away with it.

there is not a single IM leader or celebrity, who will openly admit to faults of IM, past, and present, without seeking to spit on other communities as well. no matter how "liberal", how "moderate". and these are "educated elite". you can imagine how ghetto rustics are - those of us in india have already seen them.

there is no introspection. there is only give, give, give ...and what more can you give. india is "their country" as long as all x,y,z needs are met. otherwise it is SIMI. "babri, godhra". and x,y,z will keep increasing all the time, because any maulana said so.

and here is the funny thing. 9/10 who will get outraged at this non PC post are not going to be IM. they will be non IMs who are more PC than IM themselves. they will fall over themselves to report this post also.

that is stockholm syndrome.

so the next attack, or not this one, some 4-5 ones later will be WMD attack.

and if we are intelligent, we should all plan on leaving india.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 00:24

Your post is right up there with the rhona-dhona witnessed by the forum when Sonia and MMS came into power

yes, and the rhona dhona was proved right in every sense. it was dream come true for pakistan and they will continue to have a dream run.
and ppl like me have to live in india and see appeasement of terrorism first hand. unlike ppl like you who run off from india, stand outside and then wave the flag as if it is worth something. dont make me laugh
patriotism is the last refuge of fools and scoundrels
i am already the first to see this first hand and still have hope left for india and that is only because of the handful of ppl who stood up in mumbai and given trends even they will disappear, if not now, one day.

The people voted for the congress in their state - like it or lump it.

and being from the same country i am free to display my total contempt for them. if you dont like it you can lump it

If you think India is a worthless country, you are free to pack up and leave

oh i am
many already have
and if that is what it takes for a stateless people to survive like romani
that is what will happen
others like you ran off long time back to wave their flag sitting in their safe little holes

fyi, a state is the people
if the state cannot protect the people
then people lose faith in the state
which is what is the case in India today.

even during these economic times, the events in mumbai have made many peers who can contribute a lot to india reconsider their decision to stay and now they are looking to leave. they have lost faith in the state.
retired service persons have lost faith in the state after the pay commission mess. i know people who after the malegoan media attack have lost faith in the state. four families i know of, kids have been prevented from writing the service entry exams since parents, including rtd service cadre feel it is a worthless profession - yes, worthless. they say even izzat is not there anymore.

and if idiots continue to elect the same government, on account of vested interest - caste, EJ and what not, then they too can lump it. the "intelligent" will surely immigrate and tut tut over the indian citizens getting killed like dogs in terror strikes.
it is particularly ironic, because delhi is next on the list again.
think about whether that is good for india.

while you make smartass patriotic comments over the sheer helplessness indian citizens feel over the SPG protected INC elite decision making
ask RG and SG to give up SPG cover then talk

Harish · Post by **Harish** » 09 Dec 2008 00:36

Will not hand over Dawood, Memon, Masood, says Pakistan

Ha! The bakis predictably refuse to hand over international terrorists. even if that would mean worldwide appreciation and more baksheesh and less terrorism at home.

Nah. Preserving yechandee especially before the vile yindooes takes priority over everything else, including stoking up a war.

Take that you Indians. Do what the **** you will, say the bakis.

Wonder what Mr Ballless is going to do now. No option but surgical strikes. Though, knowing the UPA guys, they will just frown and say tut-tut.

satya · Post by **satya** » 09 Dec 2008 00:37

People in Delhi were angry on Mumbai attack but in their view it happened in Mumbai & worst they feel change in Govt. won't make any difference . On possible solutions to jihadi terrorism , most of them i met suggested possible ways for 'self defense' like not traveling in public transport , most striking was complete absence of trust in the Govt. security apparatus as their first line of defense & this belief has become so much ingrained in average Delhite that he/she doesn't consider it worth giving his or her thought & in a way incompetence of local police has been accepted & digested . So its all now personal security measures & another belief its all politics & somehow politicians will make sure it doesn't go beyond an imaginary certain point /red line varying from person to person. And it is effecting the society in large (Iraq might be a start or Lebanaon ) .
Another problem is jihadi terrorism has been accepted as a 'personal' security problem only by middle class & some of the them who previously never voted did vote but they are in a minority even if whole of middle class vote . Majority voters are still poor who feel jihadi terrorism is one more problem for their roji-roti not 'the' problem . Till it becomes 'the' problem , it won't be a central issue in any election unless there are jihadi terror attacks in such states of such intensity that it does shook people but 1-2 attacks won't make any difference .

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Dec 2008 00:39

I recently met a Kashmiri man whose father and sister had died at the hands of the Indian security forces

From Trivandrum, Kashmir, presumably.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Dec 2008 00:41

No option but surgical strikes. Though, knowing the UPA guys, they will just frown and say tut-tut.

Er... elections are over until May. Where is the snooze icon?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2008 00:42

What would the total cost of the terrorist attacks be? Include all the personnel and the dead. Forget the stock market loss.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 09 Dec 2008 00:42

B.RAMAN ...
MUMBAI: ANSWERS TO READERS' QUESTIONS

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 00:44

satya

People in Delhi were angry on Mumbai attack but in their view it happened in Mumbai & worst they feel change in Govt. won't make any difference .

very true. what if the same way people in rest of india should have felt (but did not) when diwali attack in delhi occurred. if people are truly this stupid, then what can one say. and people of delhi are not alone in that. they represent india itself, which is why i am increasingly beginning to feel, what i said above

Till it becomes 'the' problem , it won't be a central issue in any election unless there are jihadi terror attacks in such states of such intensity that it does shook people but 1-2 attacks won't make any difference .

oh but it will.

terrorism began as minor crime. money fixing and betting, and bookies and money laundering in mumbai. then it became terror strike but criminals ran off to dubai (big success). then attacks on lower middle class started. then attacks on middle class. then attacks on cities. then attack on middle class places. now elite.

thinking from viewpoint of our nice people, they must be thinking - what next? hey, even our chap caught and convicted by SC is still in jail and their leaders wont hang him

a wmd strike is given, its only matter of time
it will be either poison in water supply or some pathogen
and then idiots in india will still vote the same leadership to power.

nothing will change till party in power, whoever it is, is made to feel the pain of the people

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 00:45

why be soft on IMs? could mumbai attack have occurred without IM help?

the question I have IS THERE a IM (vs. a non-IM)? And, if so, when does an IM become a non-IM?

A couple of observations. The EU is also facing rather similar issues, so I would propose that the (I)M issue is actually universal - however, AFTER some "red line".

Next the solidarity with IM is universal, OR, it is just a matter of time before you see morchas in Turkey or some other place for supporting "IM", actually even perhaps a USM.

Thirdly, we can see a shift in the "western" view over the past year or less. This view is coming more in line with that held in India for decades. (The two major views: moving from "freedom fighters" to "terrorists", and, that that Muslims want to take over because they feel that Islam is superior.

And, this situation can ONLY get worse. A non-Muslim will say: We can accommodate you, welcome, and, the Muslim after a few years will say: We want this and after some more time: We are superior. Note that "Superior" is built-in, nothing a moderate Muslim can do about that, but to tag along. Just because Bush makes a conciliatory speech did not prevent Bin Laden to write a letter asking him to convert. Al Z was on the same thread when he said convert to Islam and you will not have economic problems. Today the highest priest in SA, in Mecca during Haj, said something similar: asked Muslim nations to follow sharia. I am not saying sharia is bad - but that is the only thinking they have. Others have it too, BUT it is not equally embedded in their regions. The rest do not follow it all the time (India is a great example of depleted culture (Bollywood leads it IMHO)). In fact, Islam is in no way superior or inferior to any other religion.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Dec 2008 00:52

^ ^ ^
Grrr, you mean the cop is armed with that long menacing stick and is going to violate the human rights of the guy on his right? This demands a dharna call amnesty international and arundhati roy.
BTW, here is what amnesty international india says on the events of the past fortnight.

Multiple attacks in Mumbai kill 143 people
© APGraphicsBank

(Mumbai, 28 November 2008): At least 143 people have been killed and 300 injured in multiple attacks in Mumbai. The attacks, which started on Wednesday 27 November, targeted public places and tourist destinations such as a hospital, a railway station, a restaurant and hotels.

The attacks were unprecedented in their level of coordination and their targeting of foreign civilians. Among those who were held hostage in the Taj Mahal Palace and Oberoi-Trident hotels and the Jewish complex at the Nariman Centre were: Americans, British, Italians, Swedes, Canadians, Yemenis, New Zealanders, Spaniards, Turks, Israelis and a Singaporean.

It is unclear how many people of each nationality were killed as more bodies are thought to be inside the three buildings. Eleven foreigners have been reported dead. Four Australians, two British and one Italian have been confirmed. An Israeli family is also thought to have died in the attack on the Nariman Centre.

Seventeen residents and staff are known to have been killed at the Taj Mahal Palace. Among those to survive the attack at the hotel were a few European MEPs. About 200 people have been rescued, including 143 people from the Oberoi-Trident Hotel. Twenty-four bodies have been found in the Oberoit-Trident.

Nine of the attackers are reported to have been killed. Three have been arrested. {Three? Arrested in Mumbai? Are they counting the two arrested yesterday or was the original tally 3 arrested?} Up to 25 attackers may have been involved. At least 15 members of the security forces and policemen, including the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism chief and three other senior officers are among those killed while fighting the attacks.

The army and the National Security Guard have also been involved in gun battles as they try to clear the buildings and free hostages. The unknown gunmen are reported to be South Asian. Indian media reports have quoted security sources as stating that one of the three arrested persons was a Pakistani national from Faridkot in Multan.

The Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee said that preliminary information suggested that "some elements" in Pakistan were responsible for the terror strikes in Mumbai. India is expected to take up the matter with Islamabad when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh speaks with Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari today.

The head of Pakistan's military intelligence, the ISI, Ahmed Shujaa Pasha, will visit India to share information on the attacks. Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani today accepted a request from the Indian Prime Minsiter to send the ISI chief to India, according to Pakistan Prime Minister's spokesman Zahid Bashir. The same was been confirmed by an Indian government spokesman.

The US is sending a team from the FBI to coordinate investigations.

Amnesty International said that the attacks blatantly violate the most fundamental principles of international law. The organization expressed sympathy for the families of those people killed or wounded in the attacks and concern for the fate of remaining hostages.

"We call on the Indian government to ensure a prompt, effective, and transparent investigation of the incidents," said Ramesh Gopalakrishnan of Amnesty International's South Asia team. "Any suspects should be investigated and brought to trials in line with international standards."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2008 00:54

Vikram_S wrote:satya

People in Delhi were angry on Mumbai attack but in their view it happened in Mumbai & worst they feel change in Govt. won't make any difference .
very true. what if the same way people in rest of india should have felt (but did not) when diwali attack in delhi occurred. if people are truly this stupid, then what can one say. and people of delhi are not alone in that. they represent india itself, which is why i am increasingly beginning to feel, what i said above

Till it becomes 'the' problem , it won't be a central issue in any election unless there are jihadi terror attacks in such states of such intensity that it does shook people but 1-2 attacks won't make any difference .
oh but it will.

terrorism began as minor crime. money fixing and betting, and bookies and money laundering in mumbai. then it became terror strike but criminals ran off to dubai (big success). then attacks on lower middle class started. then attacks on middle class. then attacks on cities. then attack on middle class places. now elite.

thinking from viewpoint of our nice people, they must be thinking - what next? hey, even our chap caught and convicted by SC is still in jail and their leaders wont hang him

a wmd strike is given, its only matter of time
it will be either poison in water supply or some pathogen
and then idiots in india will still vote the same leadership to power.

nothing will change till party in power, whoever it is, is made to feel the pain of the people

Vikram_S, The same attitude led to fighting the invaders at Terrain and Panipat. The crux of the matter is how to raise awareness?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 09 Dec 2008 00:55

Vikram_S wrote:nothing will change till party in power, whoever it is, is made to feel the pain of the people

Yes, this is why having Congress hold Delhi which is an urban territory similar to Mumbai is so disturbing. The NDA loss in 2004 could thus far have been blamed partly on poor performance on security issues, but now it is inescapable that development has to come first. One possible confounding variable is if Delhi being the capital territory has better than average security and police force such that people felt the state government was doing a good job on security.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 01:02

ramana

there is only one way. the media elite have to be kicked out and the upper middle class have to start doing plain speaking instead of false PC "oh i know a IM so i will be a bigger M than IM and defend IMs to death" (literally in todays times).

on how that has to occur, some ideas are there, have to think about these and start off. the internet itself is a powerful tool to bypass the media channels. shiv statement about using rhetoric also counts. biggest problem of india today is media is disproportionately powerful on middle class in india today, and they are totally sold out thanks to indoctrination from decades. to give an example, they will be taken to concentration camps screaming how good the communist are, ie.
you can see for instance how quickly they diverted public anger over mumbai. instead of holding NCP/Congress responsible, they quickly diverted anger to ALL politician so BJP could not be different, electorally. mukhtar was made a quick bakra.

and you can see the advise given in one ET editorial to PM to counter BJP over Malegoan. media is so ideological (all center-left) that they pulled this together even after mumbai. and BJP idiots still went to CNNIBN to give proof of bribery in n-deal. so you can see the contrast.

the media has to be discredited entirely.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 09 Dec 2008 01:05

Good points, Vikram_S -- the state has not only failed in protecting its citizens for decades, it is pretty clear that there is no plan to fix anything even after this attack (the same hot air from the GoI the past dozen terrorist attacks)....just create some more commissions and groups of ministers and have some chai-biskooth under Z-category security/SPG protection. Essentially, the GoI has taught us this lesson with its callousness/incompetence/criminal behaviour "you are on your own when it comes to securing your life and property -- the GoI only protects politicians from the taxes collected". If that is the bottomline, an individual is better off paying taxes to a foreign govt. that actually provides good support and services and security -- the criminals in politics can steal someone else's taxes to pay for their personal SPG security cover. If one has options to get out of India, that option must be given serious thought....keep your citizenship if you want to, but stay out of the country with your near and dear ones if you value their lives.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 01:11

vera k,

unfortunately, what you write about development also is our "indic" mirage. will durant writes:

the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within.

in other words, economic development is nothing without security. it is a mirage which can be shattered at will. if mumbai strikes do not let up, the indian economy will suffer and writ of indian state will disappear as every dog will think he can attack india
the word "resilience" cannot compensate for security

even people in delhi are not secure
thing is these strike are escalating because indian state has done nothing to hurt the opponent seriously
so the opponent will keep seeking bigger strikes

and the one that get through directed at delhi (seat of indian power, eg read significance of delhi in LET mind), it will be horrific

indian people are just being cowardly fools (this includes all of us including me)
as shiv said, are we even prepared for n-war?
US won cold war because its decision maker were so were strong enough mentally to deter soviet union (and vice versa)
in india both citizen and leadership are unwilling to fight

so they will keep taking hit, one after another.

durant also writes:

"The Hindus had allowed their strength to be wasted in internal division and war; they had adopted religions like Buddhism and Jainism, which unnerved them for the tasks of life; they had failed to organize their forces for the protection of their frontiers and their capitals, their wealth and their freedom, from the hordes of Scythians, Huns, Afghans and Turks hovering about India's boundaries and waiting for national weakness to let them in. For four hundred years (600-1000 A.D.) India invited conquest; and at last it came. This is the secret of the political history of modern India. Weakened by division, it succumbed to invaders; impoverished by invaders, it lost all power of resistance, and took refuge in supernatural consolations; it argued that both mastery and slavery were superficial delusions, and concluded that freedom of the body or the nation was hardly worth defending in so brief a life. The bitter lesson that may be drawn from this tragedy is that eternal vigilance is the price of civilization. A nation must love peace, but keep its powder dry."

things havent changed at all.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 01:14

Rye wrote:Good points, Vikram_S -- the state has not only failed in protecting its citizens for decades, it is pretty clear that there is no plan to fix anything even after this attack (the same hot air from the GoI the past dozen terrorist attacks)....just create some more commissions and groups of ministers and have some chai-biskooth under Z-category security/SPG protection. Essentially, the GoI has taught us this lesson with its callousness/incompetence/criminal behaviour "you are on your own when it comes to securing your life and property -- the GoI only protects politicians from the taxes collected". If that is the bottomline, an individual is better off paying taxes to a foreign govt. that actually provides good support and services and security -- the criminals in politics can steal someone else's taxes to pay for their personal SPG security cover. If one has options to get out of India, that option must be given serious thought....keep your citizenship if you want to, but stay out of the country with your near and dear ones if you value their lives.

EXACTLY

satya · Post by **satya** » 09 Dec 2008 01:15

Yes, this is why having Congress hold Delhi which is an urban territory similar to Mumbai is so disturbing

Vera_K

Delhi is urban in name only , in real sense its still a village & majority voters are poor & the apparatus of Congress on these masses is almost full for they control their ration cards , water & electric supply & jobs in lucrative govt. deptts. BJP has failed to wrest this control from Congress , this 'congress state of mind' among the bureaucracy that makes sure that Congress survive for its only if you follow their particular ways that work is done in Delhi in short its the only game in town.
OT, earlier BJP won for it had the support of Jats in outer delhi via late Sh. Sahib Singh Verma & punjabi community via M L Khurana . Both are gone so is the support but even in their rule , they never were able to replace this 'congress mindset' .
An old saying in Delhi ' Dilli main kama gayee zameen ya fir kameen' ( In delhi one has earned either in land transactions or in corruption only ) . Apologies to members from Delhi but am sure they too have heard this saying about delhi .

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Dec 2008 01:17

Ramanna,you are quite right about the "gambler's last throw of th dice" as a Pak columnist in the Dawn put it (in the other thread).What larger attack can we see next time round .An attack against one of our nuclear plants? All that Pak has to do from now on is to deny that their nationals are responsible for any terror attacks that emanate from its soil and if pressed to do so,arrest a few jokers as AQKhan was "arrested" and refuse to hand them over to us! The west will then say to India that that's good enough,grin and bear it.Let Pak justice,which has been ridiculed by its own journos to eventually one day release these jokers saying that the evidence is not good enough.By that time,MMS would've been longer in the tooth,if he's still around and umpteen more attacks would've taken place.As the Israelis say,no one will do India's job for it,it will have to do so itself.I'm just listenin to a CNN report where a US spokesman says that the US needs a strategic relationship with "all" nations in the region!Fat chance that Pak will get anything more than a gentle slap on the wrists from the west and it will writhe and roll on the floor in intense agony like a WWE "superstar"!

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 09 Dec 2008 01:23

What larger attack can we see next time round .An attack against one of our nuclear plants?

We will see PAF in their C-130 transport air drop terrorists near any of the strategic areas and ........