A look back at the partition

[kittoo]

X-post (I guess its relevant here. If not, please remove)-

I think we are in for some shock this census. I was just playing with Wolfram Alpha and found out that Hinduism now counts for only 74% of population of India!!! Islam is at 12.2 and Christianity at 6.2.
So from 2001, Hinduism shrunk 6-7%!!!!!

[SBajwa]

by Kitto
I think we are in for some shock this census.

Why??? Hindus despite being 74% majority vote, behave like they are living at the mercy of Muslims deserve to wither away into oblivion. Majority of Indians will still vote to Rahul and Maino despite being Hindus as they don't know that they are slowly being converted/butchered into foreign slavery again.

If you are a patriot of India than go into politics and fight for your beliefs, ethos, ethics and Dharma.

[jambudvipa]

SBajwaji,this tendency to see our salvation only in numerical superiority always distrubs me.with the malicious social engineering going on for the last 60 odd years it is not surprising that we have come to the stage where most educated Hindus have not idea of the calamity which lies ahead.Partition is dismissed as an anomaly or something the british did,rather than recognise the fact they only took advantage of what was already there.

[kittoo]

SBajwaji,this tendency to see our salvation only in numerical superiority always distrubs me.with the malicious social engineering going on for the last 60 odd years it is not surprising that we have come to the stage where most educated Hindus have not idea of the calamity which lies ahead.Partition is dismissed as an anomaly or something the british did,rather than recognise the fact they only took advantage of what was already there.

I am sorry but I don't understand. Is numerical superiority not important?
I get the point that its of no use when the majority behaves as if its on the mercy of minority though.
And I completely agree that its a grave mistake to think that partition was something that the British did and thats that. Its not even one dimension of it, they just took advantage and thats a fact. The calamity that lies ahead, I have my own idea about it, but I am not quite sure what your thoughts are on it. Will you please elaborate?

[jambudvipa]

Kittoo,im sorry if i didnt come through clearly.I agree that numerical superiority is important,my only point is it only works if part of a larger package eg.awareness of threats,an nationalist ruling class etc.
reg calamities it will go OT for this thread.

[RamaY]

X-post (I guess its relevant here. If not, please remove)-

at 12.2 and Christianity at 6.2.
So from 2001, Hinduism shrunk 6-7%!!!!!

2001-census

Code: Select all

 Religious Composition >>> Population *  >>>  (%)
Hindus 	827,578,868   80.5
Muslims 	138,188,240   13.4
Christians 	24,080,016      2.3
Sikhs 	19,215,730      1.9
Buddhists 	7,955,207        0.8
Jains 	4,225,053        0.4
Other Religions & Persuasions   6,639,626  0.6
Religion not stated 	727,588   0.1

So christian population grew from 2.3% to 6.2% that is ~4% = 40-50+million growth. I would attribute almost all this growth to EJ-conversions as christian birth-rate is not greater than national average.

Combine this info with foreign NGO funds and we get the picture.

[svinayak]

I am sorry but I don't understand. Is numerical superiority not important?
I get the point that its of no use when the majority behaves as if its on the mercy of minority though.

Indian education and media is not in the hands of this majority and it is hijacked by a small group of private deracinated elite.
Majority of the Hindus are not even aware of this. Partition has been changed into something insignificant.

Any other country would have imposed its values and culture around it and also inside the country.

[svinayak]

So christian population grew from 2.3% to 6.2% that is ~4% = 40-50+million growth. I would attribute almost all this growth to EJ-conversions as christian birth-rate is not greater than national average.

Combine this info with foreign NGO funds and we get the picture.

Lot of these are still not accurate. This tendency to start showing all sikhs/Jains as seperate religion only started in the 90s. This is known as demographic psy ops and the western elite want to see the "progress" in the social engineering. The only way is to change the Indian reporting system and not allow foreign govt control over Indian census information.

[Karan Dixit]

... and what is this ethnic religions? I agree some foreign agencies are simply there to do number on India.

[surinder]

If Hindus continue to sleep (please pardon me for saying this), then they will continue to decline from 100% of the population to 80%, and now 75%. Then they will decline further and they will go into oblivion, this time for real. Pockets of Hindus will survive in India, and some westerns countries and the real Hindu countries will be Nepal or Mauritius. How can a nation that is asleep wake up.

By the way, Muslims numbers are aslways stuck at 13%? What is with that? I am not sure if I buy that really.

But this is a partition thread, we should discuss this in more appropriate threads, please.

[SBajwa]

The biggest lesson to learn from partition is that before Muslim League started out with their partisan politics., there were no issues at the large scale among Hindu-Muslim unity facing British for Independence. During second world war British realized that India will definitely get independence (due to british losses in the war)., and thus Muslim league was propped up.

Even now!! instead of muslim league we have mullah yadav, Laloo yadav, mayavati, congress, etc indulged in the partisan politics., which in some time will only get more partitions (Just wait till another state (after kashmir) becomes more than 25% of Muslim population). It will become harder and harder to keep on holding to these states and ultimately (due to violence) Indian state will have to let go of these states becoming "Islamic" just like Pakistan and Bangladesh (two former states of India).

[Pulikeshi]

Pulikeshi ji,
can you drop me an email on my hawai-khat pata?

Ack send - sorry for delay was off grid. Please ping me back....

[Pulikeshi]

pulikeshi ji, if you don't mind can you mail me

Ack send Brihaspati - please ping me.

[Pranav]

Lot of these are still not accurate. This tendency to start showing all sikhs/Jains as seperate religion only started in the 90s. This is known as demographic psy ops and the western elite want to see the "progress" in the social engineering. The only way is to change the Indian reporting system and not allow foreign govt control over Indian census information.

This is just like how, in the context of Afghanistan, that fact that non-Pushtuns make up 60% of the population is often suppressed. People who want to suppress that are those who would like to have Taliban rule.

[SBajwa]

by Pranav
This is just like how, in the context of Afghanistan, that fact that non-Pushtuns make up 60% of the population is often suppressed. People who want to suppress that are those who would like to have Taliban rule.

All type of stats should be eaten up and digested with a huge bag of salt. Let me quote Navjot Singh Sidhu on statistics "Statistics are like mini skirts they reveal more than what they hide".

In order to really look into a useful stats., you need mean, mode, max, min and std. divation., along with a some sampling of the universal raw data., otherwise they are garbage., like quoting "80% of Pakistanis are literates" based on the survey of the pakistani non-muslim population could be a useful lie for a terrorist state.

just like yesterday elected member of the pakjabi legislature from the faridkot village (where kasab is from) denied on aajtak that kasab is from his village. His quote was "Kasab could be from the Indian Faridkot". That is a plausible denial since there are two faridkots one a tehsil level town in India (ferozepur district) while other one a small dusty village/town in Pakistan. and Americans and British will sooner or later swallow this another lie (asatya) of naPakistani people., meanwhile we will continue to chant "SATYAMEV JAYTE" while It is ASATYA that is winning at this time.

[brihaspati]

Jinnah, Savarkar equally responsible for partition: Aiyar
http://www.newkerala.com/news/fullnews-95879.html

New Delhi, April 24: Rajya Sabha MP Mani Shankar Aiyar Saturday held Pakistan's founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) leader Vinayak Damodar 'Veer' Savarkar equally responsible for the partition of India in 1947.

Speaking at a convention of the Congress' Delhi unit on "Communal Harmony and Indian National Congress," Aiyar, a former minister, said that Savarkar favoured the "two nation theory" as he wanted a "Hindu nation" and also supported Jinnah's demand for a separate state of Pakistan.

He termed the RSS and the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) "the children of Savarkar". If India became a Hindu state, sectarian clashes would take place between "Shaivites and Vaishnavites" just like between Shia and Sunni Muslims in Pakistan," he claimed.

[Pranav]

Savarkar made many notable contributions including writing his history of the 1857 war. But it is not historically accurate to link the RSS with him.

One is not entirely comfortable with Savarkar's role. For example, it is pretty clear that the Congress-British controlled police could have stopped Nathuram Godse if they had wanted to (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... and_Gandhi). And it is also known that Godse was in touch with Savarkar. The net effect of the assassination was to enable Congress and western elites to demonize Indic people for decades.

See also Rajinder Puri's article at http://www.boloji.com/myword/mw139.htm

[Atri]

Manishankar aiyer is an a$$hole.. In 1962 war, this jerk was collecting money for China in UK where he was a student then...

[brihaspati]

Savarkar seems to have had knack for attracting rashtryia prosecutions for assassinations carried out by people who were in close contact with him. This was the case with Madanlal Dhingra. His militant thinking could have inspired people in touch, but only in British thinking could "inspiriation" be a crime equivalent to the atrocity. By that same token, every British jingo urging ethnic cleansing of Indians before the time of Reginald Dyer should have been hung, drawn and quartered.

The way Savarakar was framed in both assassinations is uncannily similar, and given the transitional hold of the British Intelligence then operating in India at the time of the assassination of Gandhiji, is not unexpected for me. Almost every militant group that came to trial in British India, were "caught" after the "atrocity" or just before they were planning to carry out the "atrocity". The trial documents show intimate knowledge of day to day workings of the groups, and meetings and decision making at the highest levels of the organization. This could only have been done if Brits had agent-provocateurs at the heart or core of these organizations.

But then they left out this so-called violent grouping that targeted MKG! Wonder of wonders - since the sentiments of the icons of British ethics and statemanship about the life or death of MKG is well known. Churchill for example.

Whoever planned the assassination of MKG shows the marks of expertise in planning not just operationally but as to whom to implicate and the larger political consequences. At one stroke, the only stubborn obstruction to absolute control of power in the hands of an Anglophile and pliable to British "gestures" core at rashtryia power is removed, the last remaining symbol of militant hatred for what the British had perpetrated on India is punished and discredited properly, alternative (to the new JLN version of Congress) visions of Indian nationalist movement or struggle discredited.

People can see the pattern: only that religion (Hindu/Hinduism) seen by the Brits as the primary identifier for anti-British struggle demonized, all those who advocated militarily strong India and a militant reprisal for the brutalities and exploitations of the Brits properly "removed" from the political scene (anarchists, Bose, INA, Savarkar and their ideological pull), the person who by his stubborn middle-road allowed the UP-Gujarat clique to stake its claim in the sharing of Rashtryia power - MKG, removed. Also MKG had been making strange utterances about bridging up with Jinnah and POWI at that time. Not an inviting scenario for the Brits who needed to preserve the protected crucible for future Islamic Jihad.

Only the hand of the assassin is seen - not necessarily the head behind it. We need to apply the principle of "who benefits from the crime".

[Pranav]

Nice analysis, B ji.

It seems Savarkar did not have the vision to understand the geopolitical implications of what Godse was upto (assuming he was aware of it).

And Gandhi himself is a strange case. He first sidelined Bose, then supported the British favourite Nehru over V. Patel. Despite all his cooperation, he got assassinated when his death became more expedient for colonial interests.

Savarkar seems to have had knack for attracting rashtryia prosecutions for assassinations carried out by people who were in close contact with him. This was the case with Madanlal Dhingra. His militant thinking could have inspired people in touch, but only in British thinking could "inspiriation" be a crime equivalent to the atrocity. By that same token, every British jingo urging ethnic cleansing of Indians before the time of Reginald Dyer should have been hung, drawn and quartered.

The way Savarakar was framed in both assassinations is uncannily similar, and given the transitional hold of the British Intelligence then operating in India at the time of the assassination of Gandhiji, is not unexpected for me. Almost every militant group that came to trial in British India, were "caught" after the "atrocity" or just before they were planning to carry out the "atrocity". The trial documents show intimate knowledge of day to day workings of the groups, and meetings and decision making at the highest levels of the organization. This could only have been done if Brits had agent-provocateurs at the heart or core of these organizations.

But then they left out this so-called violent grouping that targeted MKG! Wonder of wonders - since the sentiments of the icons of British ethics and statemanship about the life or death of MKG is well known. Churchill for example.

Whoever planned the assassination of MKG shows the marks of expertise in planning not just operationally but as to whom to implicate and the larger political consequences. At one stroke, the only stubborn obstruction to absolute control of power in the hands of an Anglophile and pliable to British "gestures" core at rashtryia power is removed, the last remaining symbol of militant hatred for what the British had perpetrated on India is punished and discredited properly, alternative (to the new JLN version of Congress) visions of Indian nationalist movement or struggle discredited.

People can see the pattern: only that religion (Hindu/Hinduism) seen by the Brits as the primary identifier for anti-British struggle demonized, all those who advocated militarily strong India and a militant reprisal for the brutalities and exploitations of the Brits properly "removed" from the political scene (anarchists, Bose, INA, Savarkar and their ideological pull), the person who by his stubborn middle-road allowed the UP-Gujarat clique to stake its claim in the sharing of Rashtryia power - MKG, removed. Also MKG had been making strange utterances about bridging up with Jinnah and POWI at that time. Not an inviting scenario for the Brits who needed to preserve the protected crucible for future Islamic Jihad.

Only the hand of the assassin is seen - not necessarily the head behind it. We need to apply the principle of "who benefits from the crime".

[Abhi_G]

Folks, OT but had to let this out since that a$$ mani shankar iyer is being mentioned.

GoI after independence started demolishing the Andaman Cellular Jail and built "Govind Ballabh Pant" hospital there. Due to very active resistance, petitions to PM, numerous visits to sarkari babus by the surviving revolutionaries, the surviving wings of the jail were assigned a "National Memorial Status" during the 25th year celebration of Indian independence. GoI before that lied that Japanese bombardment had destroyed several wings of the jail.

aiyer represents the same tendency against any form of armed resistance against the invaders - whitewash history, discredit and criminalize our heroes and freedom fighters.

http://www.andamancellularjail.org/

[ramana]

A map of Partition of India



From:
http://www.mutanteggplant.com/agog/2007/07/23/

[brihaspati]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... andhi.html

On another occasion, Churchill told Smuts: 'You are responsible for all our troubles in India – you had Gandhi for years and did not do away with him.’ To which Smuts replied: 'When I put him in prison – three times – all Gandhi did was to make me a pair of bedroom slippers.’ When the Mahatma went on hunger strike during the war, Churchill told the Cabinet: 'Gandhi should not be released on the account of a mere threat of fasting. We should be rid of a bad man and an enemy of the Empire if he died.’ Grigg then said that Gandhi was getting glucose in his orange juice, and another cabinet minister said 'he had oil rubbed into him which was nutritious’, allowing Churchill to claim that 'it is apparently not a fast merely a change of diet.’

[brihaspati]

The British did order assassinations of Indian leaders who became a problem for them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4152320.stm
British 'attempted to kill Bose'

The British told their agents to assassinate India's independence war leader Subhash Chandra Bose in 1941, an Irish historian has claimed.

Eunan O'Halpin, who has written several books on British intelligence, says the order came after Bose sought support of the Axis powers in World War II. British agents were told to intercept and kill Bose before he reached Germany via the Middle East, Mr O'Halpin says.
[...]
Mr O'Halpin says that once they found Bose was planning to oust the British with active support of the Axis powers, British intelligence was given "clear orders" to assassinate him in 1941.


It appears to be a last desperate measure against someone who had thrown the Empire in complete panic

In a lecture in Calcutta, Mr O'Halpin cited a recently declassified intelligence document referring to a top-secret instruction to the Special Operations Executive (SOE) of British intelligence to murder Bose.
Mr O'Halpin says the British were initially puzzled about the whereabouts of Bose after his escape from Calcutta in January 1941.

"They thought he had gone to the Far East, but they soon intercepted Italian diplomatic communication and came to know Bose was in Kabul, planning to reach Germany through the Middle East," said Mr O'Halpin.

"Two SOE operatives in Turkey were instructed by their headquarters in London to intercept Bose and kill him before he reached Germany," the Irish professor, who teaches at Trinity College, Dublin, said. Mr O'Halpin said the SOE operatives in Turkey failed to because Bose reached Germany through Central Asia and the Soviet Union. "Every time [the operatives] checked back, headquarters told them the orders were intact and Bose must be killed if found."

Describing the decision as "extraordinary, unusual and rare", Mr O'Halpin said the British took Bose "much more seriously than many thought".
[...]
He added: "Historians working on the subject tell me the plan to liquidate Bose has few parallels. It appears to be a last desperate measure against someone who had thrown the Empire in complete panic."

[ramana]

Somerset Maugham in his Ashenden stories writes about Ashenden being tasked to kill an Indian freedom fighter(Chandra) in Spain during WWI.

Last year we figured out, its based on real life leader from Bengal whom Stalin had killed in 1930s.

[svinayak]

Dominion status on India
http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2009/0 ... ity-india/
Also check the comments

On Nov. 6, Churchill returned to London and sat in Commons while Stanley Baldwin pledged the Conservative Party to Dominion Status for India. Churchill was convinced it was a bad decision. In Nov. 16, he wrote an article for the Daily Mail in which he argued, “‘Justice has been given – equal between race and race, impartial between man and man. Science, healding or creative, has been harnessed to the service of this immense and, by themselves, helpless population.’”

Gilbert continues,

But the Hindus, allowed by Britain to observe their own customs, still branded sixty million of their members as Untouchables, whose very approach in the street was considered an affront and whose presence was considered ‘a pollution’. Dominion Status ‘can certainly not be obtained,’ Churchill wrote, by those who treated ‘their fellow human being, toiling at their side’ so badly. The grant of Dominion Status would be ‘a crime’.

A couple of points need to be made here:

1.) By 1929, the British government under MacDonald’s Labour regime was already in the process of devolving self-government unto the Indians by offering them Dominion Status within the Empire.

2.) Churchill opposed Dominion Status on the grounds that the British were fostering racial equality in India, which he identified with ‘Justice’ itself, and that the natives were incapable of doing this.

3.) Churchill was writing for a British audience, not an American one.

4.) The Indian debate is evidence that the pre-war British did see a contradiction between reserving certain rights for themselves and denying them to others. It wasn’t just a “few oddballs.” Churchill himself was in this camp. So was Labour and the Conservatives.

5.) Re: India The prevailing liberal theory at the time was that the British were holding India in trusteeship until such a time that Indians were capable of self-government without resorting to division, bloodshed and inequality.

Ultimately, the Indian National Congress rejected the offer of Dominion Status and demanded full independence for India. Nehru and Gandhi were imprisoned by Irwin; the Congress was banned; a crackdown on their followers ensued.

More from Gilbert:

“During his speech of December 12 Churchill warned of the dangers to India ‘if the British Raj ist to be replaced by the Gandhi Raj’. The rulers of Indian Native States, and the vast Muslim minority, would both have to make terms with the new power. The Untouchables, ‘denied by the Hindu religion even the semblance of human rights’, would no longer have a protector.” (Gilbert, Churchill, 497)

So here we see pre-war Churchill in 1929 making noise about “human rights.” According to Dan Dare, there was “no calls for ‘universal’ human rights’” before the Second World War, even though Churchill was justifying the occupation of India on “human rights” grounds years before Hitler came to power.

Churchill offered his own “two-tier” solution to the Indian crisis:

“the Indian Provincial Governments would move towards ‘more real, more intimate, more representative organs of self-government’, while the central power would remainly firmly in British hands.” (Gilbert, Churchill, 498)

As Indians go after the British - they are having their own small discussion

Lanogheal the Elf says:
August 26, 2009 at 9:40 am
Mark you are correct that there is somewhat of a correlation betwixt the identification of Brahmins with ‘evil White Supremacist boogey-men’.

Even to this very day Brahmins are quite discriminatory.

An example: One of my aunts (of German descent) married a high-caste Brahmin and took a trip to India. Walking down the street the couple encountered an Untouchable begging. My aunt wanted to give him some money, but her new Brahmin husband strictly forbid ANY interaction with the unter-mensch!

Also: The ramifications of Britiains liberalism in this area are still felt today. What if the region of Pakistan was still under White Control today??? There would be less of a terrorist threat and less of a NUCLEAR threat from that backwards country.

Reply

Even though the situation could still have been remedied in the 1930s by force, and I belief Churchill was wrong in not attempting to do this, the Indian indepence movement would have never appeared in the first place had the British never created a Westernized Hindu elite. Why educate those who are your potential enemies?

As Gustave le Bon observed in the 1880s:

“The army of educated persons without employment is considered in China at the present day as a veritable national calamity. It is the same in India where, since the English have opened schools, not for educating purposes, as is the case in England itself, but simply to furnish the indigenous inhabitants with instruction, there has been formed a special class of educated persons, the Baboos, who, when they do not obtain employment, become the irreconcilable enemies of the English rule. In the case of all the Baboos, whether provided with employment or not, the first effect of their instruction has been to lower their standard of morality. This is a fact on which I have insisted at length in my book, “The Civilisations of India”–a fact, too, which has been observed by all authors who have visited the great peninsula.”

Not only in India was the Independence movement a corollary of the colonizer’s misguided efforts to “increase the level of civilization” of the natives. The same phenomena took place in Indonesia, North Africa, and East Asia.

[brihaspati]

The four territories of Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland should move towards "more intimate, representative" self-government, whereas the central power should firmly remain under Indian control.

[Chandragupta]

X-post (I guess its relevant here. If not, please remove)-

I think we are in for some shock this census. I was just playing with Wolfram Alpha and found out that Hinduism now counts for only 74% of population of India!!! Islam is at 12.2 and Christianity at 6.2.
So from 2001, Hinduism shrunk 6-7%!!!!!

How reliable are these figures? I believe, the figure must have come down from 80s to 70s but 74 is too shocking a number to be true. What are the chances that the ongoing census figures might be fudged to accommodate high Muslim & Christian rates of growth?

[surinder]

B, many thanks. I would like to discuss this, but which thread in GDF?

[munna]

Go ahead B-ji, would contribute to it with all my limited means.

[ramana]

Moved the posts to new thread in GDF.

[surinder]

Punjab, which had been denuded of muslims is now seeing a resurgence of mosque building, with Sikhs it seems enthusiastically helping.

I don't quite know how to explain the phenomena.

http://www.sikhchic.com/partition/punja ... in_sikhdom

[brihaspati]

I am not surprised. One of the reasons I had held my caution about the capability of that entire belt to resist the Islamists. Many factors, marginalization of Sikhs at the centre of power [forget blue-turbaned figureheads], the rapid capitalization of punjab agriculture - resulting land alienation and marginalization of rural poor [both factors would combine to fuel the first insurgency where capital financed the frustration into separatist channels], and a new global networking where the Pakjabi-separatist-Sikh trend is feeding from the other side of the world.

[surinder]

X-post:

Munna and Brihaspati, good analysis.

As I mentioned, I am at a loss to explain this phenomena. When partition happened the Hindus/Sikhs of Punjab did somethign which was rather unique: they cleared the entire region of ROP. This was a retaliatory move, obviously, because they had opposed partition, but when the atrocities of Rawalpindi and Lahore were undertaken, they undertook their own retaliations.

In punjab the ROP had always faced a sort of cold disdain hidden under a sheath of indifference. ROP (as one of them mentions in the article) would not even ask for a place of worship, lest it spark of overt hostility. Many house helps in Punjab were conveniently named "Raju", "Ramesh", and not their ROP name. I remember reading a comment by Shahi Imaam of a Masjed in Amritsar, he would face questions pretty much routinely which said "if paakestaan has been created, why are you here?"

The problem is that while people's reaction has not changed, but something has changed. This masjid building is not a people driven local phenomena, it is too coordinated and has all the marking of blessings from higher ups. I think Sarpanch's, local MP's, Congress, SGPC, the Khalistanis are all in the game. By extension the Jamaat's and TSP also has penetrated by forming alliances and some quid-pro-quo deals. There is some official sanction and thought process behind it. It is true that thanks to Indira and Bhindarawale, Hindu-Sikh and GOI-Sikh relations are not healthy, but still at people-to-people level psyche has not changed to the extent it is suggested by the news item. This is the puzzling part.

Recently I went to a major central Punjab city and right smack in the center of the market is a new masjed. I was told that this was a masjid before partition and then after partiton when M's left for their paradise land, it was made into a Gurudwara. Recently it was given back to ROP and reverted. Why would the Sikhs abandon a good functioning Gurudwara? i walked by and saw some 5-10 Punjab Police guys (turbans, trimmed beards, pot bellies, machine guns in their laps) sitting at the entrance guarding it. Number of worshippers were few, if any. In India, if you have permanant security of this kind, something is fishy, really fishy.

[Prem]

Growing up In Punjab till i did my graddduation ( any doubt ) i had not had the luck and blessing of seeing, meeting any ROPER and hard time to make mental distinction between Roper and Poaker when settled in Delhi for shortwhile . And i was not alone going through the similar confusion: Our parental given gyan regarding 47 helped to burn through the veil of maya. WKK are queered exceptions and not the norm. If any spark ever start and spread Gyan- Parkash in North , 600% probability it will be Sriganeshed from this region. There are numerous special places in every nook and corner to hang and store the "reason" for shortwhile while dealing with "unreasoned" ones. Apprehensions ok, caution ok, wait and watch ok but fear naa as crossing lines trials will end tragically as GOI will loose control for sure .

[sanjaykumar]

Many factors, marginalization of Sikhs at the centre of power [forget blue-turbaned figureheads], the rapid capitalization of punjab agriculture - resulting land alienation and marginalization of rural poor [both factors would combine to fuel the first insurgency where capital financed the frustration into separatist channels], and a new global networking where the Pakjabi-separatist-Sikh trend is feeding from the other side of the world.

It might be an interesting excericise to model India's future if Sikhs, who have the most experience with ROP, are voted into power at the center for the next 20 years. And of course with a meaningful GDP, projected at up to $10 trillion.

I believe Southern Asia might be a very different place.

[surinder]

Prem Paji, grave yards are full of people who thought that ROP'ers will never succeed and we will take care of them. The ROP'ers may appear unwashed, poor, literal dredges of the society, and while we may be whizzing past in air-conditioned mercedes, but the ROP always get their way. Do not underestimate them and their tenacity.

[Pranav]

It might be an interesting excericise to model India's future if Sikhs, who have the most experience with ROP, are voted into power at the center for the next 20 years. And of course with a meaningful GDP, projected at up to $10 trillion.

I believe Southern Asia might be a very different place.

One has to be careful to avoid stereotying individuals ... although it is good to recognize geopolitical aspects of various belief systems.

Speaking of Sikh leaders, KPS Gill would be good. MMS is pathetic. As regards thought experiments about people being voted into power ... I don't assume that India is a functioning democracy.

[munna]

Prem Paji, grave yards are full of people who thought that ROP'ers will never succeed and we will take care of them. The ROP'ers may appear unwashed, poor, literal dredges of the society, and while we may be whizzing past in air-conditioned mercedes, but the ROP always get their way. Do not underestimate them and their tenacity.

I agree, the need for caution is greater than ever. After the fall of valley and incursions in Jammu, Punjab is northernmost bastion of Indics. We will never let this Masada fall!!!!

[Prem]

Prem Paji, grave yards are full of people who thought that ROP'ers will never succeed and we will take care of them. The ROP'ers may appear unwashed, poor, literal dredges of the society, and while we may be whizzing past in air-conditioned mercedes, but the ROP always get their way. Do not underestimate them and their tenacity.

I agree, the need for caution is greater than ever. After the fall of valley and incursions in Jammu, Punjab is northernmost bastion of Indics. We will never let this Masada fall!!!!

It wont happen till Kangreess torpedo national Security Institutions with reservation etc. That will be the day , IMHO, indians will have the moral right and justification to revolt and bury PSism deep . lets not forget techonological advances and dont go by the examples of past when it was labor incentive to defend the land plus this is the area/people you cant lull them to sleep , especially in this excited arena. The very subject bring twinkle in every eye.