Re: Managing Pakistan's failure
Posted: 06 Sep 2010 08:08
Lets keep few Millions on the side to buy all the Ghee to be put in Poak-Mouth. 
Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/
Hi Rajesh,RajeshG wrote: Johann,
There is a subtle difference in how i understand this. Pakistan doesnt have a choice on whether it can harness Global Jihad or not.
The term "Islamic Nationalism" has 2 parts to it. Islam and Nation.
Islam cannot but globalize (its not for somebody to harness) and Nationalism cannot but localize. "Islamic Nationalism" then gets caught in this contradiction of whether to globalize or localize. That is why i dont think the term "muslim chauvinism" or "muslim nationalism" really applies to Pakistaniyat. It may start out like that but then it gets a life of its own.
On top of it "Islam" being based on Koran and the word of God makes it interesting for Pakistan. The word of God is absolute and you have got to take the whole thing as-is. Ecumenism or Secularism wont help Pakistan at all. Both of those concepts will dilute the Islamic foundation and will result in failure of Pakistaniyat.
Pakistan's success or failure will depend on the success or failure of "Islamic Nationalism" as that is what Pakistan is -> an Islamic Nation.
Yes. I agree. My Point is that there is nothing inherent in the Pakistani State location that is unstable. It is in the choices that they are making (with some prodding and lot of day dreaming). The apprarent Indus River instability should make them be friendly to India (Just the direct access to Indian Ocean should have made Chinese friendly) .ramana wrote:Think why? Why the constant confrontation and why the constant dribblle of 'aid and advice" to keep them alive but not strong enough to damage elsewhere which is the right hunting grounds for them if they are Zarb-e-Momin?
Here goes the draft - comments are welcome.ramana wrote:Can you write a short note on this idea?
Thanks, ramana
That is an excellent and very usable classification. Serendipity at work here.Pulikeshi wrote:
To begin, the success of a state can be characterized by measuring its ability to deliver politico-economic goods. This includes governance, security, infrastructure, health care, financial institutions, environment, etc. Strong states are good at the delivery of the said goods and Weak states have room for improvement. Failed states, are not beyond repair, but are at risk of becoming Nominal or Collapsed states. Collapsed states, similar to Black Holes, are beyond repair and require overwhelming measures. Virtual and Rump states form when either territory is partially or completed lost. Finally, Nominal states, are states that have either failed or collapsed, but are nominally held up by external powers to pursue realistic geo-political goals in a neighborhood.
From saying Pakistan do more, we have reached Pakistan do morality (at least little bit).shiv wrote:By coincidence I was mentioning something similar to someone else today. It seems to me that Pakistan has worked itself up to be an amoral, if not immoral criminal enterprise.SSridhar wrote:Just was watching the PCB Chairman's defence of the Pakistani cricketers. It is amazing to see how every Pakistani exhibits the same traits of perfidy, obfuscation, excuses, lies etc. What is it that makes them all behave in this fashion ? This is more a rhetorical question.
Why? One might ask. Isn't everyone equally immoral or amoral?
Somehow Pakistanis seem to have decided that if every man, woman or child can grab something by intimidation they will do it. If they fail they will beg, And if begging fails hey will steal. Everyone is doing it. The army dos it. The RAPE do it and mango Abdul sees no other route. If there is an electricity line - people will tap free power from it. If someone is giving aid - they will put up a show to make sure that more aid comes in.
One possible reason for this is something that nobody in the world outside of BR will believe. When Pakistanis rejected India they rejected everything related to Dharma. Dharma is non religious - but Pakis chose the route that said "If something is non Islamic it must be rejected whether it is religious or secular"
But does that mean that morality is non existent in Islam? Pakistanis have been unable to show that morality exists in Islam. They have tended to act as if 7th century Arabian morality is all that is needed. As long as Arabic texts are quoted as sources for justifying some act, Pakistanis have clung on to that. In the early year Pakistanis had enough innate Indian culture to take them forward for a few decades, but after that they have exhausted everything and created a basically morally bankrupt society.
My theories may all be completely wrong. I don't know - I don't have a full explanation of why Pakistan seems to be a deceiving criminal enterprise full of liars from top to bottom.
Interesting. It explains the TSP takleef about the word Cold Start.
Pakistan-US: Pakistan's armed forces have continued the fight against Islamist militants in the country's west and northwest despite floods, a senior US officer in charge of U.S. military aid in Pakistan said 8 September, Agence France-Presse reported. According to the report, a very senior US military officer said some "aviation resources" have been dispatched for flood relief and rescue operations, but the Pakistani military has remained focused on operations against extremists.
Late on 8 September, the Pakistani Ambassador to the United States flatly contradicted the senior US military official. He said all the resources of the armed forces are committed to flood relief at the expense of the fight against terrorists. Flood relief and recovery are the highest national priorities..
NightWatch Comment: Agence France-Presse reported the strange American military statement and relayed it around the world. US and international media reported the Ambassador's statement. The issue begs for some perspective, if only for educational purposes.
The US military statement portrays the Pakistan armed forces as if they were irresponsible in the face of a national calamity. The Ambassador's statement clarifies that the US statement is flat wrong and the Pakistani armed forces are doing exactly the same tasks the US national guard undertakes to cope with natural disasters.
US personnel must come to understand that Pakistani Ambassadors, Generals and Admirals are the best sources for commenting on the uses of Pakistani military resources in support of national disaster relief in Pakistan.
The Pakistani leadership - civilian political leaders and flag officers - are in step, rather unusually, that flood relief, stabilization and recovery are exponentially more important as national security tasks than anything else. By some Pakistani accounts, a third of the population has been displaced by the flooding.
Even a novice should understand that all national resources must be committed to alleviating the effects of such flooding. No Pakistani leader is asserting that the Pakistan armed forces are continuing counter-extremist operations as usual. With a third of the population affected by the floods, every Pakistani in government and in uniform has a relative in trouble because of the floods.
Finally, there is the phenomenology of limited national resources. When a nation generates its armed forces to prepare for war, it distorts civilian normality and draws resources from the civil sectors to increase national military, combat power.
Increases in military power come at the expense of civilian normality. This is true even for small border skirmishes that only require civilian trucks to move forces to the border. It is uneconomical, inefficient and foolish to devote wartime levels of resources to the maintenance of the armed forces in peacetime. Thus, prudent leaders designate in advance those otherwise productive civilian resources that the government will commandeer in wartime and only in wartime.
The rule also works in reverse, in that the armed forces of a state are usually the only reservoir of manpower and organized technical resources that can be applied to alleviate a civilian disaster. The Pakistani response of using military assets to assist the civil sector during the flooding is typical of all nations. The draw down of military normality -- combat readiness -- is essential to stabilize a civilian disaster.
This is appropriate and typical. The most salient examples of the reverse flow of resources from the military into the civilian sectors occurred during the Chernobyl disaster, the North Korean famine and the Hurricane Katrina disaster in New Orleans.
In Chernobyl, containment of the nuclear disaster required the engineering resources of the entire Soviet armed forces for a year. The Korean famine in 1995 and 1996 resulted in the Korean Peoples Army guarding grain fields in addition to growing food themselves. In the US, the use of the national guard for civilian relief has become a routine feature of a state's reserve assets for civilian relief and recovery.
The operations of the Pakistan armed forces, especially the helicopter crews, are four-square in the mainstream of the proper use of military forces to support civil authorities. The Pakistani relief effort is another textbook example of how resources shift in support of national priorities.
For new analysts: The lessons are inerrant and unmistakable. Always watch the interface of civil and military resources to diagnose national behavior. Whenever civilian normality is disrupted and the direction of resource flow is towards the military so as to increase military power, real war preparations are occurring -- always and in every country.
Whenever military assets are being used to support civilian disaster relief, the activity is not a cover for war preparations. The direction of flow of military resources to support civil authorities is an unambiguous indicator of a genuine national disaster.
The Pakistan floods are an obvious case, but in many crises and countries in the past 40 years, the situation has not been so clear because natural disasters occur during war preparations. The most reliable discriminator for distinguishing war preparations from civilian relief operations is the direction of flow of the resources.
Cold Start =Economic Cost=Real Takleef to3.5 Pitahs and Poak Puttar. Is this pain to them the real preassure india can apply> If So its gonna get mighty painful by the day/s. The new flood flog is just topping and come handy if it become reoccuring phenomenon with climatic changes in the area and the world. Soil erosion and importation foodgrain will unravel Pakistan faster and better than war.ramana wrote: Interesting. It explains the TSP takleef about the word Cold Start.
This is a keeperramana wrote:
For new analysts: The lessons are inerrant and unmistakable. Always watch the interface of civil and military resources to diagnose national behavior. Whenever civilian normality is disrupted and the direction of resource flow is towards the military so as to increase military power, real war preparations are occurring -- always and in every country.
Whenever military assets are being used to support civilian disaster relief, the activity is not a cover for war preparations. The direction of flow of military resources to support civil authorities is an unambiguous indicator of a genuine national disaster.
The Pakistan floods are an obvious case, but in many crises and countries in the past 40 years, the situation has not been so clear because natural disasters occur during war preparations. The most reliable discriminator for distinguishing war preparations from civilian relief operations is the direction of flow of the resources.
This one was fun!ramana wrote: The cognisanti among them will catch the ref to Moon God and its connotation.
So can PRC also and Pak would love to get sold to Chinese, just like they gifted parts of Kashmir to PRC. Imagine a Shaolin Temple to Islamic Kungfu in lahoreziang.RajeshA wrote:With money India can buy off the politicians and the junta leadership to an extent, that we could impose an arbitrary map, political system and arrangement with India as we like.
sarkar welcome to BRF Universe.sarkar wrote:So can PRC also and Pak would love to get sold to Chinese, just like they gifted parts of Kashmir to PRC. Imagine a Shaolin Temple to Islamic Kungfu in lahoreziang.RajeshA wrote:With money India can buy off the politicians and the junta leadership to an extent, that we could impose an arbitrary map, political system and arrangement with India as we like.![]()
The moment the world realize that "Pak bikau hai", everyone will try to get a piece of it and Unkil will be first in line.
Prem, I remember you coining a term "3.5 Boyfriends". I loved that term. I should remember to use when I write about Packroachistan (another great term from you).Prem wrote:... 3.5 Pitahs and Poak Puttar.
shiv wrote:Taken togetherRajeshA wrote:shiv ji,
What is the value of Lahore? What is the value of Peshawar?
- The end of Pakistan as we know it
Access to Afghanistan and CAR
Control of trade routes
Control over downriver water
Control over Chinese access to Gwadar or Karachi
This cannot be ignored anymore. A large population which is not Christian is an enigma for US and Americans. The historical capital held by India and it large influence in Asia is considered as a competitor and roadblock to full global domination by US elite.RajeshA wrote:
America did support Pakistan against India, first as a CENTO and SEATO ally to boost Pakistan's capacity against Communism, and after Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation in August, 1971 against India as a partner of Soviet-Union; in early 90s out of support-inertia and after Sep. 2001 as part of its bargain. All of this support for whatever reason has hurt India, and needs not be ignored. America has been opportunistic at the cost to India, but the general view is, that it has not been with a malevolent design and intent on India. India's existence and democracy is not exacting any costs on America, and is not against America's strategic interests.
That is yesterday's war. It is like the Pakistanis doting over various Ghazwas. The Christians have bigger things to fear.Acharya wrote:This cannot be ignored anymore. A large population which is not Christian is an enigma for US and Americans. The historical capital held by India and it large influence in Asia is considered as a competitor and roadblock to full global domination by US elite.RajeshA wrote:
America did support Pakistan against India, first as a CENTO and SEATO ally to boost Pakistan's capacity against Communism, and after Indo-Soviet Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation in August, 1971 against India as a partner of Soviet-Union; in early 90s out of support-inertia and after Sep. 2001 as part of its bargain. All of this support for whatever reason has hurt India, and needs not be ignored. America has been opportunistic at the cost to India, but the general view is, that it has not been with a malevolent design and intent on India. India's existence and democracy is not exacting any costs on America, and is not against America's strategic interests.
We may not know that for sure. When Pak is playing China against US, why not we should believe there is no competition, when thier interest crosses. Case in point is Gwadar. There are some reports & indications. We always believe that US is so amenable to Pak to play Pak as kind of counter weight in hurting India or so such things. Why not it should not be seen as gaining strategic space against China in Pak ( i know floating this idea is equivalent to floating on thin ice)? Have we explored this route?RajeshA wrote:here is no competition between US and China to be expected in Pakistan.
PRC understands that USA has been paying its whore and supporting her lifestyle, and frankly it doesn't mind, because the whore likes to buy too many shoes, and PRC cannot buy her all that; PRC is still not rich enough. PRC also knows that USA would someday move on, but hopes that it would be when PRC has a good job and enough change to buy her services. PRC knows, that should USA move on before PRC is ready to buy her services and support her lifestyle, the whore might simply go and marry the bania next door, and then it is curtains for PRC.
After lal masjid incident involving chinese --- workers; action of stick wielding sisters on them; resentment of Pak taliban towards this incident; south dive of relations between Pak talibans like Asian tigers with the ISI & Pak Army gives a different picture. We must pursue to see what is there beneath. Being press is controllable by state and given the China's sensitivities, any news about China in bad light might not be published. Atleast not in english media.China is loved
This is in fact why Chinese settlements in Pakistan should be fun. Why should we stop the Chinese in POK?Kanson wrote:After lal masjid incident involving chinese --- workers; action of stick wielding sisters on them; resentment of Pak taliban towards this incident; south dive of relations between Pak talibans like Asian tigers with the ISI & Pak Army gives a different picture. We must pursue to see what is there beneath. Being press is controllable by state and given the China's sensitivities, any news about China in bad light might not be published. Atleast not in english media.China is loved