Bharat Rakshak

IOW Kiyani is turning out to be a Kiya nahi.

^ Parts of it looks stolen from one esteemed Benis maulana's thoughts.

shiv wrote:

SSridhar wrote:Nuclear-boast, Ludhiana Style

The author is supposedly Indian in service of Ummah. Not one good thing about India have come out of this BDy's mouth. Just ignore him unless you want to puke every time you come across his name.

ramana wrote:IOW Kiyani is turning out to be a Kiya nahi.

The article claims he like to do in privacy, behind the parda to avoid lungi test .

pa'astan's first business express train

The train will run between Lahore and Karachi, covering the distance in 18 hours. Wouldn't you rather fly, if conducting "business" between the two cities is the goal?

Pakistan Railways is operating trains with only 147 locomotives as compared to Indian Railways which was being run with 8,300 locomotives, added Bilour. But we all know that one paki locomotive (powered by chinese djinns) is equal to 100 SDRE locomotives

shiv wrote:

SSridhar wrote:Nuclear-boast, Ludhiana Style

Pakistanis have more Indians reading their English articles than Pakis, which suits their pretensions of being India's conscience keepers.

IIRC the author is an Indian. But he could be accorded an honorary Paki status. In one of his articles, about an Afghan girl who got her nose and ears chopped, he equated western concerns about the girl to a camel poking its nose into a tent with the intention of getting in.

See? Nose == Nose. Very clever no?! Lulz!!

I could have included a picture of that girl, but it makes my stomach churn. Google for it yourself if you have a strong stomach. And this fellow makes a joke of it.

IIRC the author is an Indian.

Yes - Jawed Naqvi is Indian - only mildly though. IIRC, he celebrated the Pakistani attack on the Parliament.

Apparently in an informal survey of US policy makers about 1/3 believed that "US can prevail in Afghanistan" almost nobody believed that "US *will* prevail in Afghanistan".

Something has started to bother me. Many years back, the Paki gul, with his trademark smirk said that "Taliban are indigenous to Afghanistan and US will ultimately have to negotiate with them". At that time, such a thing was unthinkable. He went on to add that the talibs will turn their attention to JK once their plans in Afghanistan is done.

The decade between 2001 and 2011 was a "lost decade" for Pakistan. India has exploited it a bit (or economy has grown, the gap in economy has translated to money for defence which the Pakis can never ever hope to match unless they get baksheesh from their 3.5 friends), but India hasn't exploited it to the fullest to guarantee our security. Why didnt we build overwhelming presence in Afghanistan? Why didnt we sign agreements to train Afghan police, army and politicians? Why arent Afghan students coming in droves to study in Indian universities? "Respecting Pakistan's sensitivities", being nice to Unkil, and believing that Unkil will solve all our problems, we have taken a hands off approach.

In the meanwhile, we have muddled along in JK. Instead of bringing everyone together for a strong negotiated settlement, we still have stone pelters in JK. Who are financing and organizing them? Why havent we bribed, arrested or co-opted the fellows who do this? Why aren't JK students studying in universities across India and working in jobs in Bangalore? Imagine that happening over 10 years! By now, instead of stone pelting the youth would have seen how productive it is to get an education and get high paying jobs.

I am afraid that in 2-3 years' time when Pakis have their way in Afghanistan, we will be back to square one. We cannot stop all infiltrators from Paki-land. We can only hedge our bets by nurturing a sympathetic population in JK and strong support in Afghanistan. Instead we focus our energies on pappi-jhappi with Pakiland. The only way to win against the Pakis is to set our own house in order, define our own interests abroad and to pursue it not being influenced by WKK pappi-jhappi-ism. Do papp-Jhappi all you want, I have no problems with that. But sharpen your knives too.

I hope we wake up soon.

shiv wrote:

negi wrote:India and it's foreign policy will be a lot better when this whole generation of jacka$$es romanticising about the old days when India and TSP were a same country will be part of a history.

Negi - I can understand this sentiment, but I see it as contrary to exerting eventual control over the subcontinent.

I can be accused of being pro MSA but accusations don;t bother me because I am perfectly capable of defending my own view on any subject and will change if I believe I am wrong. I would like to point out that I read MSA's 1994 book "Pakistan Papers" where he was the first person that I knew who said "Pakistanis see themselves as "Not India". I read the book around 1997 or 98. MSA knew Pakis even before BRF and even before most of us knew about what Pakis are like.

Have you read the book?

There should be a separate discussion on "understanding the Indian policy elite". Maybe there is already a thread for it. We spend too much time in broadly painting MSA, Nehru et al as stupid, unpatriotic, chanakian etc. It is not all that instructive.

Anujan wrote:Apparently in an informal survey of US policy makers about 1/3 believed that "US can prevail in Afghanistan" almost nobody believed that "US *will* prevail in Afghanistan".

Something has started to bother me. Many years back, the Paki gul, with his trademark smirk said that "Taliban are indigenous to Afghanistan and US will ultimately have to negotiate with them". At that time, such a thing was unthinkable. He went on to add that the talibs will turn their attention to JK once their plans in Afghanistan is done.

The decade between 2001 and 2011 was a "lost decade" for Pakistan. India has exploited it a bit (or economy has grown, the gap in economy has translated to money for defence which the Pakis can never ever hope to match unless they get baksheesh from their 3.5 friends), but India hasn't exploited it to the fullest to guarantee our security. Why didnt we build overwhelming presence in Afghanistan? Why didnt we sign agreements to train Afghan police, army and politicians? Why arent Afghan students coming in droves to study in Indian universities? "Respecting Pakistan's sensitivities", being nice to Unkil, and believing that Unkil will solve all our problems, we have taken a hands off approach.

In the meanwhile, we have muddled along in JK. Instead of bringing everyone together for a strong negotiated settlement, we still have stone pelters in JK. Who are financing and organizing them? Why havent we bribed, arrested or co-opted the fellows who do this? Why aren't JK students studying in universities across India and working in jobs in Bangalore? Imagine that happening over 10 years! By now, instead of stone pelting the youth would have seen how productive it is to get an education and get high paying jobs.

I am afraid that in 2-3 years' time when Pakis have their way in Afghanistan, we will be back to square one. We cannot stop all infiltrators from Paki-land. We can only hedge our bets by nurturing a sympathetic population in JK and strong support in Afghanistan. Instead we focus our energies on pappi-jhappi with Pakiland. The only way to win against the Pakis is to set our own house in order, define our own interests abroad and to pursue it not being influenced by WKK pappi-jhappi-ism. Do papp-Jhappi all you want, I have no problems with that. But sharpen your knives too.

I hope we wake up soon.

Anujanji great post.

Monkey Cultured Aiyar is a herrow now for NDTV because he apparently 'confronted' Hafeez e-pig Saeed. MSA claims to speak for all Indians and said that Indians want a prosperous and strong Bakistan, hell NO! I want Bakistan to be divided into hundreds of entities which can be slowly assimilated back into India. I admit that my views might be extreme but surely most Indians are either indifferent towards Bakistan or have a deep seated distrust towards it, I dont know where MSA gets his information from to claim that most Indians want a prosperous and strong Bakistan. MSA is a mainowaadi doberman with a massive chip on his shoulder, he equates Hafeez e Pig with some fictional characters on our side of the border while enjoying the hospitality of our enemy country. IF MSA can name a single Indian who roaming around freely spewing hate after being responsible for shedding innocent Bakistani blood then I will do a sashtang pranaam to MSA and declare him Mahdi. Till then if people question MSA's patriotism then they very well have the right to. Shunned by his own party, MSA now finds solace in badmouthing his country on Bakistani TV shows! massive LOL if that is a trait of a patriot

Shaashtanga wrote:

Anujan wrote:Apparently in an informal survey of US policy makers about 1/3 believed that "US can prevail in Afghanistan" almost nobody believed that "US *will* prevail in Afghanistan".

Something has started to bother me. Many years back, the Paki gul, with his trademark smirk said that "Taliban are indigenous to Afghanistan and US will ultimately have to negotiate with them". At that time, such a thing was unthinkable. He went on to add that the talibs will turn their attention to JK once their plans in Afghanistan is done.

The decade between 2001 and 2011 was a "lost decade" for Pakistan. India has exploited it a bit (or economy has grown, the gap in economy has translated to money for defence which the Pakis can never ever hope to match unless they get baksheesh from their 3.5 friends), but India hasn't exploited it to the fullest to guarantee our security. Why didnt we build overwhelming presence in Afghanistan? Why didnt we sign agreements to train Afghan police, army and politicians? Why arent Afghan students coming in droves to study in Indian universities? "Respecting Pakistan's sensitivities", being nice to Unkil, and believing that Unkil will solve all our problems, we have taken a hands off approach.

In the meanwhile, we have muddled along in JK. Instead of bringing everyone together for a strong negotiated settlement, we still have stone pelters in JK. Who are financing and organizing them? Why havent we bribed, arrested or co-opted the fellows who do this? Why aren't JK students studying in universities across India and working in jobs in Bangalore? Imagine that happening over 10 years! By now, instead of stone pelting the youth would have seen how productive it is to get an education and get high paying jobs.

I am afraid that in 2-3 years' time when Pakis have their way in Afghanistan, we will be back to square one. We cannot stop all infiltrators from Paki-land. We can only hedge our bets by nurturing a sympathetic population in JK and strong support in Afghanistan. Instead we focus our energies on pappi-jhappi with Pakiland. The only way to win against the Pakis is to set our own house in order, define our own interests abroad and to pursue it not being influenced by WKK pappi-jhappi-ism. Do papp-Jhappi all you want, I have no problems with that. But sharpen your knives too.

I hope we wake up soon.

Anujanji great post.

actually it feels all the more omnious coming from him .
But facing the truth one wonders what is the 'takshan kartavya' to contain the mess once it erupts in afpak.

^^^^
We have spent 10 years perfecting pappi jhappi. They have spent 10 years recruiting and training terrorists. Perfecting logistics and creating an infrastructure for terror. Now the terrorists have territory in afghanistan too! Anyone remember the IC814 hijack when Afghans and afghan territory was used as a proxy by Pak army to get JeM chief freed? In addition they have armed themselves to the teeth and are making even more bums. I shudder to think what would have happened if their economy is strong too.

Lilo wrote:

Shaashtanga wrote:Iit not being influenced by WKK pappi-jhappi-ism. Do papp-Jhappi all you want, I have no problems with that. But sharpen your knives too.
I hope we wake up soon.

Anujanji great post.
actually it feels all the more omnious coming from him .
But facing the truth one wonders what is the 'takshan kartavya' to contain the mess once it erupts in afpak.

No guts no glory. Poaqs are gonna provide us the perfect oppertunity to arrive like Unkil did after WW2. It is the destinty of the Indics to punish and destroy the Dushts and remove the curse of terrorism on civilized human society. Who else can accomplish this Mahabhartesque tals except us? All we need is right kind of preparations and if we dont do it then its our own fault for not using the oppertunity lighten the burden of Bhumi, suffering from the dead weight of Poqisataniat .

MSA might be a herrow, but his own Congress party frowns upon him for talking to the Professor

I lost the link in Le Monde where they have criticised Sarkozy for transfering the know how to india for tracking the Pakistani Agosta 24/7. Apparently , French has put few funny devices to keep eye on Poaqueers .

Anujan, Will reply in the weekend.
Keep in mind Pandavas had to let the world see the Kauravas in their true colors.

Anujan wrote:Why aren't JK students studying in universities across India and working in jobs in Bangalore?

Anujan. They are. Both.

Anujan wrote:they have armed themselves to the teeth

um. Regarding this, there is at least one more nation led by brainless bums that needs to be sorted out.

The US has three options as I see it

1. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and drop Pakistan
2. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and keep funding Pakistan in a return to the 90s
3. Stay engaged.

Perhaps CRamS or some other American cheerleader will be able to say which form of idiocy the US will select henceforth?

I think option 1 will be the best for India long term

Option 2 is tough, but with a weaker US the future will be interesting

Option 3 - no change from now. Complete stalemate

Anujan wrote:Apparently in an informal survey of US policy makers about 1/3 believed that "US can prevail in Afghanistan" . . . . . I hope we wake up soon.

Anujan ji, I agree with that. As I have always believed, there is no clear policy in GoI on dealing with Pakistan. There are contrasting pulls within the policy-making circles within GoI (until 1963, it was Nehru's policy alone) and clarity has eluded the mandarins. The majority within GoI are convinced, it seems to me, that Pakistan will drown on its own, that somehow the US would eventually have to give up on Pakistan and side with us, that the gap between India and Pakistan will grow so enormously that Pakistan would be able to do not much against us. The policy planners have also reconciled, IMHO, that India would have to live with some Pakistani-sponsored terrorism here and there once or twice a year and a large India can absorb it and probably with better border management or intelligence or policing those incidents would come down even if not eliminated completely.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/331525/from ... ld-market/
From Kamra to Karachi via the Chinese: Military debuts in the handheld market

The newest entrant in the market for tablets and eBook readers – dominated by the likes of Apple, Amazon and Samsung – is none other than the Pakistani military. The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra, whose self-described mission is “to produce and support weapon systems for a high state of operational readiness of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)”, has started up a new commercial venture with a Chinese company....“for the joint production of JF-17, PAF had established sufficient facilities which are appropriate for the production of both defence and commercial products.” {Bandaar has a kid now }

The venture website, cpmc.pk, states that “Innavtek jointly developed two products with Avionics Production Factory which are successfully flying on fleet of our JF-17 aircraft and three more products are under co development phase.”

Militants destroy mosque in Khyber Agency; no casualty
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... o-casualty

Militants on Friday destroyed a mosque in a blast in Khyber Agency, sources said on Friday. The sources said that the mosque was exploded when it was empty as people didn’t perform Friday prayers due to militants’ threats. Sources said that the mosque was completely destroyed in the blast but there was no loss of life.

Punishing Pakistan is not the way to go

American viewpoint.

Jhujar wrote:Militants destroy mosque in Khyber Agency; no casualty

Militants on Friday destroyed a mosque . . . as people didn’t perform Friday prayers due to militants’ threats.

No Muslim could have done this. There is clearly evil Hindu's hand.

abhishek_sharma wrote:Punishing Pakistan is not the way to go
American viewpoint.

From the above,

Withholding military aid would likely not punish the military anyway. It would, however, reduce the resources available to the civilian government, since the evidence is that the military can get what it wants from the government's overall available resources.

It is this 'manufactured' evidence that is at the root cause of problems for India specifically and the region in general. Evidence also shows that even if abundant American military aid flows, the Pakistani Military takes its usual funds from the civilian government's budget. In fact, the military does not let the civilian government determine the quantum of funds allocation within the budget. The military also knows that once it slashes its fund requirements, it may be difficult to restore it in later years. The expenditure on the armed forces and the intelligence agencies remains the second highest federal government expenditure after external debt servicing. This has been true even in the period between 2002-2011 when the US military aid has flowed freely. Nobody really knows how the military spends this huge amount. Such an unaccountability of a massive expenditure reveals the nature of this ‘security state’.

Let us take the most recent year for which some data is available. In October 2010, the Principal Economic Advisor to the Government, Sakib Sherani, admitted that the revealed figures of PNR 442 Billion for the armed forces itself was widely off the actual mark of PNR 675 because the expenditures were incurred under various heads. To this figure must be added another PNR 110 Billion that the government silently gave away to the ISI and the IB in c. 2010. The tax base was PNR 1600 Billion in c. 2010 while the Pakistani Army got PNR 800 billion or half of the tax collected.

MahendraJi, that a contemptuous, demented, bloody monkey coward like MSA is given notoriety and importance tells you something about India does it not? I am not for censorship, but I am for shaming a chutiya like MSA and rendering him irrelevant. But that he is some kind of harrow tells me that India is afflicted with the same sickness as MSA. Tragic but true.

shiv wrote: The US has three options as I see it

1. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and drop Pakistan
2. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and keep funding Pakistan in a return to the 90s
3. Stay engaged.

Perhaps CRamS or some other American cheerleader will be able to say which form of idiocy the US will select henceforth?

I may not qualify as American cheerleader but USA will go with option 2, because that would keep india on tight leash.

Jhujar wrote:I lost the link in Le Monde where they have criticised Sarkozy for transfering the know how to india for tracking the Pakistani Agosta 24/7. Apparently , French has put few funny devices to keep eye on Poaqueers .

That is good news for us. And good noose for the pakis too.

RamaY wrote:

shiv wrote: The US has three options as I see it

1. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and drop Pakistan
2. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and keep funding Pakistan in a return to the 90s
3. Stay engaged.

Perhaps CRamS or some other American cheerleader will be able to say which form of idiocy the US will select henceforth?

I may not qualify as American cheerleader but USA will go with option 2, because that would keep india on tight leash.

That is quite OK. India will handle it with more trouble. After all it was that policy tat led to 9-11. The world was never an easy place, and 9-11 was the best thing that happened to India in recent decades. It killed or at least weakened several birds with one stone.

actually it feels all the more omnious coming from him .
But facing the truth one wonders what is the 'takshan kartavya' to contain the mess once it erupts in afpak.

Same thought hit me too. Usually, Anujan-saar's nuggets are 400% true and come true within some time.

rajanb wrote:

Jhujar wrote:I lost the link in Le Monde where they have criticised Sarkozy for transfering the know how to india for tracking the Pakistani Agosta 24/7. Apparently , French has put few funny devices to keep eye on Poaqueers .

That is good news for us. And good noose for the pakis too.

Maybe the inflated costs for all our Frencie deals are to fund these kind of backdoor deals to track PRC/TSP etc?

RamaY wrote: I may not qualify as American cheerleader but USA will go with option 2, because that would keep india on tight leash.

Neither am I, but have the honesty to acknowledge the colossal power US has to shape events that suit its interest. And so I concur, its basically a return to the status quo ante that has served it well for 60+ years.

shiv wrote:

Anujan wrote:they have armed themselves to the teeth

um. Regarding this, there is at least one more nation led by brainless bums that needs to be sorted out.

The US has three options as I see it

1. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and drop Pakistan
2. Leave in shame and led the Taliban take over and keep funding Pakistan in a return to the 90s
3. Stay engaged.

Perhaps CRamS or some other American cheerleader will be able to say which form of idiocy the US will select henceforth?

I think option 1 will be the best for India long term

Option 2 is tough, but with a weaker US the future will be interesting

Option 3 - no change from now. Complete stalemate

IMHO, US will stay engaged. Because, the option 1 or 2 does not exist realistically given that US has painted itself as a bull's eye for all the jihadis. If it stops engaging here, then it will have to engage them in its homeland(like India) and suffer the consequences.

shiv wrote:

negi wrote:India and it's foreign policy will be a lot better when this whole generation of jacka$$es romanticising about the old days when India and TSP were a same country will be part of a history.

Negi - I can understand this sentiment, but I see it as contrary to exerting eventual control over the subcontinent.

I can be accused of being pro MSA but accusations don;t bother me because I am perfectly capable of defending my own view on any subject and will change if I believe I am wrong. I would like to point out that I read MSA's 1994 book "Pakistan Papers" where he was the first person that I knew who said "Pakistanis see themselves as "Not India". I read the book around 1997 or 98. MSA knew Pakis even before BRF and even before most of us knew about what Pakis are like.

Have you read the book?

OT I haven't read the book but in BRF discussions on this topic we often miss the point that "knowing" while necessary condition is different from "doing" or even "knowing how to do". We say MSA, Nehru, MMS or whoever is failed to do the needful, therefore we conclude he is either a fool or ignorant or mala fide. Thus if we can produce evidence of their having "correct" knowledge, it would follow that they are somehow also doing the correct thing, or at least know what the correct thing to do is.

What we do here might be a bit more useful if we can recognize and stay aware of the distinction between "knowing" and "doing."

CRamS wrote:MahendraJi, that a contemptuous, demented, bloody monkey coward like MSA is given notoriety and importance tells you something about India does it not? I am not for censorship, but I am for shaming a chutiya like MSA and rendering him irrelevant. But that he is some kind of harrow tells me that India is afflicted with the same sickness as MSA. Tragic but true.

You may not like the man but he is an influential figure in the ruling nomenklatura.

KLNMurthy wrote:
What we do here might be a bit more useful if we can recognize and stay aware of the distinction between "knowing" and "doing."

Nitpick on a similar note. I think patriotic Indians are the first to tomtom the fact that if Indians had not invented the zero the world would not be what it is. The world of course uses the zero and does not give a damn about who thought of it first. However if one were to go back and make an acknowledgement of who thought of it first and why the world uses it, it was because some Indian came up with.

I am merely acknowledging that Mani Shankar Aiyar was the first to inform me (via his book) about one important aspect of Pakistanis. He knew before me. I Know that Pakis are that way. What I am doing is to acknowledge that the information came to me from Mani Shankar Aiyar. Whether that is useful to BRF of not is of little concern to me. Mani Shankar Aiyar's insight was useful for me and set the tone for what I am doing now.

KLNMurthy wrote:

shiv wrote:Negi - I can understand this sentiment, but I see it as contrary to exerting eventual control over the subcontinent.

I can be accused of being pro MSA but accusations don;t bother me because I am perfectly capable of defending my own view on any subject and will change if I believe I am wrong. I would like to point out that I read MSA's 1994 book "Pakistan Papers" where he was the first person that I knew who said "Pakistanis see themselves as "Not India". I read the book around 1997 or 98. MSA knew Pakis even before BRF and even before most of us knew about what Pakis are like.

Have you read the book?

OT I haven't read the book but in BRF discussions on this topic we often miss the point that "knowing" while necessary condition is different from "doing" or even "knowing how to do". We say MSA, Nehru, MMS or whoever is failed to do the needful, therefore we conclude he is either a fool or ignorant or mala fide. Thus if we can produce evidence of their having "correct" knowledge, it would follow that they are somehow also doing the correct thing, or at least know what the correct thing to do is.

What we do here might be a bit more useful if we can recognize and stay aware of the distinction between "knowing" and "doing."

+1000000

Agree completely. People framing the policy may know(perhaps more than the armchair analysts) but they may have some their own interests/views/bias in not acting in certain ways. They may have their own bias/views/interests in extending lifeline to pakis or in hoping that pakis will reform or in believing that pakis will destroy themselves(without India having to do anything).

But the fact of the matter is that Indian policy regarding pakis has been incoherent and inconsistent regardless of the knowledge possessed by those policy makers.

The facts can be used by a dove and a hawk to push their respective opinions. Facts, or knowing the facts, is only half the story. The rest of the story is how those facts are interpreted.

I just don't want repeat of IC-814, Parliament, Lal Qila, Kaluchak, Akshyadharm, 26/11, etc.

When we confronted TSP in 80s and early 90s covertly & to some extent overtly what we gained in Big picture ? Were those gains significantly higher than ''losses'' ( debatable) since 2001 till now ?

MMSjee is simply following a policy put in place since times of Shri. I K Gujral - Shr. ABVjee - Shri MMS jee & it will not change no matter who sleeps in 7 RCR in near future . I don't see any incoherence in this policy . Its been only a decade give another decade then we decide . Timeline moves much slower in these places from what i have heard . An example its only now GoI coming to understand that our NSC was supposed to be a planning agency in mtters of national security not executive one but it took GoI only decade to finally come to this conclusion . No sarcasm but that's just how things move around 7 RCR .

Please jump on me and tell me how wrong I was at some future date. But what is being forgotten here is that India is looking to appear less threatening to a Pakistan that feels more threatened by America. In other words India is looking to replace America as a country that Pakis look at when they feel threatened. Pakistan is not being treated as a peer, but as something that can be moulded/coaxed.

This is my observation/analysis. It is not my plan. It is my reading of the GoI's plan. If you don't like the idea, no need to jump on me. If the idea does not work feel free to come and tell me about it.