Indian Army : News and Discussion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 14:17

just a scribbled calculation:

28 crores for 33 units (read CAG given above), the unit price of per vehicle is some 84 lakhs (approx). Hypothetically, of the Sipox costs 60 % of that costs then it is 50 lakhs per vehicle. Minus say 5 lakhs per vehicle in shipping etc. So a cost of 45 lakhs. Say he paid 30 lakhs (A 4x4 Tatra truck costs Rs 40 to 50 lakhs in Europe, so we can use 30 laks for the purpose of estimation).

Very bad at math but 15 lakh x 788 trucks which VKS stopped is Rs 118 crore. 14 crore is the bribe, almost 11%.

I am not meaning anything, its just a calculation. Someone can use it for an argument or counter argument or take out a mistake.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 15:20

Tatra trucks’ performance outstanding: DRDO chief

Tatra trucks, which Army Chief General VK Singh has labelled as sub-standard, DRDO chief VK Saraswat has come out and praised the vehicles.

The performance of Tatra trucks has been outstanding, said Saraswat.

Also in 2005, there was a case in Karnatak HC against Tatra alleging that the Rajiv fellow bribed one and all and there should be an independent inquiry.

The question was what was the alternative in 2005?

habal · Post by **habal** » 31 Mar 2012 15:36

Press & some MPs are raising noise against Antony because he has in a way supported VKS. This is an ambush and smear campaign by 2G against both of them.

Why should Antony interfere in procurement when there are well-established protocols like procurement committee forwarding recommendation to finance ministry for approval. There is no need for a seasoned politician like Antony to break this protocol unlessly absolutely necessary because it involves a lot of unnecessary hassle since bureaucrats are prone to misleading politicians in matters of vested interests like procurement and they can also misdirect politicians in various issues. There is nothing to gain and everything to lose as far as Antony is concerned.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 31 Mar 2012 15:47

Hi Chacko,
Just noticed you mentioning BHEL being involved in this too on your post on page 25.
Amazing,how you break these stories.

I thought BHEL was a navratna PSU and all that but..shucks..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 16:12

Kapil wrote:Hi Chacko,
Just noticed you mentioning BHEL being involved in this too on your post on page 25.
Amazing,how you break these stories.

I thought BHEL was a navratna PSU and all that but..shucks..

Its edited. its typo. There was no breaking news on that.

Ok, another of the Tatra stats from 1999:

Project /Product : Kolos Tatra Vehicles
Year/ Month of GOI Approval : 1987
Colla-borator : Omnipol
Cost Rs. in lakh: Esti-mate : 2945 / Actual 1418.49
Indigenisation (Percentage) : Envi-saged 86.00 / Actual 50.65
Quantity in No: 1136
profit: 1111.78 lakhs

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 16:13

Let me be very clear on this, I have never said that the TATRA vehicles are substandard. Even VKS has not said in his interview to The Hindu or to the Hindi TV channel that the TATRA vehicles are sub-standard.

I have even likened the TATRA deal to that of BOFORS FH77B. Good products, may be the best among their contemporaries available for sale to India at the respective points of time. However, i reiterate, that does not mean that the country should pay 2.5 times the intrinsic worth of TATRA vehicles. If the money allocated and spent for the purchase of the 7000 vehicles had been judiciously spent, may be we could have provided 16000 TATRA vehicles to the army. This could have provided matching mobility to the supporting arms and logistic columns of all the strike formations, for example.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 31 Mar 2012 16:22

Official apathy, funding slash made general write to PM

Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, March 29, 2012
Email to Author

The claw-back of Rs3,000 crore from the Army's annual modernisation fund, pushing the proposed China Mountain Strike Corps proposal to the backburner, and indecision over weapons procurement by the defence ministry may have sent Army chief general VK Singh knocking on the Prime Minister’s door —
seeking his intervention on the country’s state of military preparedness.

The March 12 letter, which has sparked off another skirmish between the Army chief and the defence ministry, details serious inadequacies in the army’s weaponry and equipment. Sources say the letter to the PM was the general’s last resort, and had come after he had asked the finance and defence ministers for funds to modernise the Army.

Consider these:

Out of the Army’s 2011-2012 budget of some Rs10,000 crore, Rs3,000 crore was taken back by the finance ministry on account of delayed spending in December 2011. The Army, however, says the delay was because of the slow and tedious decision-making process of defence procurement. Of the entire budget, it was left with just Rs1,000 crore to spend on 106 Army modernisation proposals, including equipment for special forces, armour piercing shells, ultra-light howitzers, Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launchers, and low-level air defence radars submitted at the beginning of the fiscal.

The Army’s proposals for the creation of a China-centric mountain strike corps, two armoured brigades for Sikkim and Ladakh, and an infantry brigade for Uttarakhand were cleared by the Prime Minister in principle last April. However, the finance ministry is yet to clear these.

Late-February, Gen Singh wrote to Antony, stating that lack of decision-making and slow procurement process was affecting the Army's capabilities. The critical areas listed by him included artillery ammunition, armour-piercing tank ammunition, air defence radars and T-72 tank barrels.

Before writing the letter to the Prime Minister, Singh met Antony on March 7 and told him in great detail about the delays in the procurement process, and how defence ministry bureaucrats were derailing the Army by stalling the acquisition programme and leaking stories against him. Though Antony assured him that every effort would be made to ensure that Army modernisation did not suffer, no major defence purchase was made in March — for the first time in many years.

According to sources, it was then that General Singh decided to seek the Prime Minister’s intervention and wrote the letter, which is now at the centre of a new controversy.

This is where the people and the opposition should unite on this issue, pressure key decision makers and FORCE the UPA to invest in acquisition. The media is too busy talking about the tension between VKS and MoD/UPA like this is a F'ing gossip mag!! This is an absolute travesty!!

We are too busy focusing on non issues and the VKS drama. We have a build up across our borders and we are too busy playing political games!

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 16:24

@chackojoseph

You can cook up any numbers out of your imagination and assumptions, but that doesn't lessen the credence that there were kickbacks and the person who was in control for a part of the period from 1997 was either complicit in the corruption involved or negligent in performing his duties or both.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 16:35

nelson wrote:@chackojoseph

You can cook up any numbers out of your imagination and assumptions, but that doesn't lessen the credence that there were kickbacks and the person who was in control for a part of the period from 1997 was either complicit in the corruption involved or negligent in performing his duties or both.

There are no imaginary numbers used except arriving at 118 cr profit and 14 cr bribe, for which i have said its just a rough calculation. Rest are from CAG.

Rest needs to be proven.

However, people are so observed in this Tatra business, which can be now probably safely be moved to defence production purchases thread.

The real issue s lost.

The Army's issue, which this thread is about. Gen VKS has alleged that there are leaks when he goes to another country. There was attempts to bring a cropper between Army and MoD, for tapping.

He blames tejender Shingh and hints that the Army leaks cannot be TS's making alone. There are people in Army, who are making it happen. he said that he brought out bribe issue because of tejender Singh.

Why is no one discussing that?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 16:41

You had gone yourself to procure CAG reports of yesteryears on BEML's performance and blaming others for sidetracking the issue. you can take your reports and imagined numbers like
"60 % of that costs
then it is 50 lakhs per vehicle.
Minus say 5 lakhs per vehicle in shipping etc.
So a cost of 45 lakhs.
Say he paid 30 lakhs
Rs 40 to 50 lakhs in Europe,
so we can use 30 laks
Very bad at math but 15 lakh ....almost 11%."

I challenge you to show any of the above numbers are something but your imagination.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 16:51

nelson wrote:You had gone yourself to procure CAG reports of yesteryears on BEML's performance and blaming others for sidetracking the issue. you can take your reports and imagined numbers like
"60 % of that costs
then it is 50 lakhs per vehicle.
Minus say 5 lakhs per vehicle in shipping etc.
So a cost of 45 lakhs.
Say he paid 30 lakhs
Rs 40 to 50 lakhs in Europe,
so we can use 30 laks
Very bad at math but 15 lakh ....almost 11%."

I challenge you to show any of the above numbers are something but your imagination.

Let me quote myself again

There are no imaginary numbers used except arriving at 118 cr profit and 14 cr bribe, for which i have said its just a rough calculation.

chackojoseph wrote:just a scribbled calculation:
28 crores for 33 units (read CAG given above), the unit price of per vehicle is some 84 lakhs (approx). Hypothetically, of the Sipox costs 60 % of that costs then it is 50 lakhs per vehicle. Minus say 5 lakhs per vehicle in shipping etc. So a cost of 45 lakhs. Say he paid 30 lakhs (A 4x4 Tatra truck costs Rs 40 to 50 lakhs in Europe, so we can use 30 laks for the purpose of estimation).

Very bad at math but 15 lakh x 788 trucks which VKS stopped is Rs 118 crore. 14 crore is the bribe, almost 11%.
I am not meaning anything, its just a calculation. Someone can use it for an argument or counter argument or take out a mistake.

What wrong nelson? I have said the same thing and you are bringing this as if of your own.

Rest are CAG numbers , for which I have posted links.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 16:54

chackojoseph wrote:just a scribbled calculation:
28 crores for 33 units (read CAG given above), the unit price of per vehicle is some 84 lakhs (approx). Hypothetically, of the Sipox costs 60 % of that costs then it is 50 lakhs per vehicle. Minus say 5 lakhs per vehicle in shipping etc. So a cost of 45 lakhs. Say he paid 30 lakhs (A 4x4 Tatra truck costs Rs 40 to 50 lakhs in Europe, so we can use 30 laks for the purpose of estimation).

Very bad at math but 15 lakh x 788 trucks which VKS stopped is Rs 118 crore. 14 crore is the bribe, almost 11%.
I am not meaning anything, its just a calculation. Someone can use it for an argument or counter argument or take out a mistake.

The numbers in red are your imagination only. Else show proof. And after all that or otherwise the 11% means nothing.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 16:58

nelson wrote:The numbers in red are your imagination only. Else show proof. And after all that or otherwise the 11% means nothing.

Ain't I saying that myself, why rediscovery? What are you arriving at? Why beat around the bush?

Added later.... Did you read this CAG Numbers I posted?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 31 Mar 2012 17:11

Officer, Gentleman And The Army Mess

One too honest to back off, the other honest to a fault. And the army suffers.
Chander Suta Dogra

Two men, both with rock-solid reputations for integrity. In any other circumstance, they would have made for a great team to lead the nation’s defence forces. Instead, they have been pushed into doing battle with each other. One, possibly the “victim” of “a hidden agenda”, refuses to take things lying down. The other—his political boss—hobbled by the remote-control handling of his ministry by people more powerful than him, can do nothing more than wring his hands in despair.

The General V.K. Singh saga is destined to go down as one more example of the UPA government’s misgovernance, irrespective of whether the army chief goes now or in May, when he’s due to retire. The redeeming aspect of the entire fracas, though, is the issues it has thrown up. Is there something drastically wrong with the armed forces’ interface with the civilian leadership? Why are the armed forces’ concerns on defence security and preparedness not being addressed? How powerful is the shadow of the arms lobbies in senior defence appointments and vital procurements of arms and equipment? The questions are piling up thick and fast, and the needle of responsibility has slowly but surely shifted from defence minister A.K. Antony to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his leadership. It is now clear that as the UPA government busied itself in battling scam after scam, it reacted to the growing disquiet within the armed forces with petty point-scoring.

In the last six years since Antony has been the defence minister, a chair he occupied after Pranab Mukherjee vacated it to move to the finance ministry, his handling of his charge has been viewed with dismay by defence-watchers. He is in many ways perceived to be of the same mould as his prime minister. Their personal image may be blemishless, but both are seen as ineffective leaders presiding over a growing culture of “anarchy and chaos” around them. Would the army chief’s controversy have played out the way it’s doing currently had it been capped with some deft handling early on? The UPA government, and Antony in particular, underestimated V.K. Singh’s capacity to take the “injustices done to him and to the army” to their logical conclusion. “This is spinning out of control,” says Major General Ravi Arora (retd), who heads defence magazine Indian Military Review, “because we have a weak leadership in Antony. He has not even exercised his discretion on a small thing like the DoB controversy which, if handled maturely, would not have landed the defence establishment in an embarrassment. This is undoubtedly bad leadership which is allowing unaccounted-for bureaucrats to have their way. Just being honest won’t do.”

“This is spinning out of control because we have a weak leadership in Antony, which is allowing unaccounted-for bureaucrats to have their way.”Maj Gen Ravi Arora, Indian Military Review

The issue, though, is not just about a minister sleeping on the job. More sinister is the possibility of the hidden hand of arms lobbies—represented by retired officers of the armed forces and bureaucrats—in fixing tenures and appointment of senior officers in the three services. Consider the sequence of events. A ‘top secret’ letter written by the army chief to the prime minister detailing the abysmal state of defence preparedness due to alarming shortages in arms and equipment is quietly leaked during the ongoing session of Parliament. The timing is perfect; it immediately leads to a clamour from parliamentarians for the general to be sacked. The implication being that the “leak” has come from his camp and is designed to embarrass the government as it did not accept his request over his DoB. The leak comes within days of the army chief giving an interview to a national daily in which he says that he was offered a bribe of Rs 14 crore by a retired lieutenant-general in return for clearing the purchase of 600 more “sub-standard” Tatra heavy-duty trucks for the army.

All through the DoB controversy, V.K. Singh’s team had pointed to the role of frustrated arms dealers in having him out of the way because he refused to toe their line. The names of two army chiefs also came up, one of whom (J.J. Singh) the army chief himself raised in an interview to Outlook last month. The question of just who is out to get him assumes importance in the light of all this. As Adm L. Ramdas (retd) points out, “I’m concerned about who is benefiting from all this? It deflects attention from the main issue flagged off by the army chief.”

Indeed it has. Says Adm Vishnu Bhagwat (retd), “He is clearly being framed by arms lobbies. The pregnant statement is the one made by this person who offered him the bribe. That ‘people before you have taken and people after you will take’.” Bhagwat, who is the only naval chief to be sacked while in office—for refusing to appoint a government favourite as his deputy chief of naval staff—goes on to explain, “The arms dealers are 99 per cent foreign companies who have Indian agents here. The disturbing thing is that the intelligence services of foreign countries—such as the MI-6, CIA and Australian intelligence—ride piggypack on these Indian agents who also double up as informers! Not just that, they subvert the services and MoD by getting people on their payrolls. The embassies are in the know and facilitate these operations to benefit their own defence industries. It is well known that these lobbies plan the careers of officers on their payrolls. Way back in 1985, we knew who’d be the air chief at that time, because of a particular person’s proximity to arms dealers. Who will guard the guards?”

Is something similar at play in the present episode? What was in the realm of conjecture till a few days ago is now crystallising before the public gaze. As Col R.S.N. Singh, a former officer of the Research and Analysis Wing and a defence analyst, says, “The arms lobby has become so powerful that they decide who will be chief and how long his tenure will be. Knowing V.K.’s reputation for honesty, it was obvious to these lobbies that he had to be moved out after two years so that a more pliable person could be installed. The DoB issue was manufactured to limit his tenure, but the chief eventually went to court to sort it out. The court left the matter open and did not take a decisive view. They concluded that the resultant embarrassment would make V.K. Singh resign. But he was made of sterner stuff and refused to resign (refer Outlook interview, Mar 12). The lobby then began to build up a case to sack him. The anonymous letter which the government took note of, regarding snooping in the defence minister’s office, was aimed at this end. The latest leak should also be seen through the same lens. They want him out soon—which means now!”

What makes it worse is that all this is happening under the watch of one of India’s most honest defence ministers ever. Even after spending six years heading a challenging ministry, Antony has made little effort to understand the ethos of the services or the issues and sensibilities that rule their world. Service officers point to how he is the very antithesis of the dynamic service environment which lays great premium on ‘josh’ and competence.

“If someone is corrupt, fix him, but don’t stall arms and ammunition. Infantry soldiers haven’t fired their carbines in three years, as there’s no ammunition!”Lt Gen P.C. Katoch (retd), United Services Institution

An army commander who commanded the sensitive Northern Army told Outlook, “As soon as Antony took charge in 2006, he was given a presentation by the director-general of air defence where it was pointed out that 97 per cent of the AD guns were obsolete. Even Delhi does not have adequate air cover.” Six years on, the army chief’s leaked letter refers to exactly the same situation even now. The Union minister’s obsessive quest for probity in defence deals is leading to costly delays and an alarming decline in even routine procurements. The talk in defence circles is that the armed forces are paying the price for preserving St Antony’s clean image. Says Maj Gen Mrinal Suman (retd), the country’s foremost expert on defence procurement, “Modernisation of the Indian armed forces is considered to be lagging behind by more than 10 years. More than 85 per cent equipment is obsolescent or getting closer to it, and a paltry 15 per cent equipment is of state-of-the-art technologies. India’s penchant for blacklisting foreign firms has been one of the major contributing factors to this state of affairs. We shot ourselves in the foot by blacklisting Bofors, HDW and Denel. Unfortunately, we have learnt no lesson. A.K. Antony has chosen to continue in the same vein.” Adds Lt Gen P.C. Katoch (retd), serving on the council of the United Services Institution, “If someone is corrupt, fix him, but do not stall vitally needed arms and ammunition. For the last three years, infantry soldiers have not fired their carbines because there is no ammunition for their training. It is a shame on the defence minister.”

Few, therefore, could quarrel with the contents of Gen V.K. Singh’s letter to the prime minister. Its ‘leak’, though, had MPs from the Samajwadi party, the JD(U), the CPI(M), and even the Congress’s own Harshvardhan Singh, demanding that V.K. Singh be shown the door. However, a scathing rebuttal from the general—“This (leaking of a top secret letter) is an act of high treason and the persons responsible for it should be punished”—and the soaring approval for his actions subsequently led to a rethink. By Thursday evening, the mood in the government had changed, the evidence of which came in the conciliatory tone Antony set in his press conference. He described the leak as “an anti-national act”, and tasked the Intelligence Bureau to get to the bottom of it. Rather than sack the army chief in a rush, the best way forward, say sources, would be to watch how the situation unfolds. Removing V.K. Singh would only leave him looking like a martyr. A senior leader in the Congress party says, “Sacking the chief will only hurt the government and the defence minister. If we do that, we will give more ammunition to our critics. The government will not only be blamed for inaction but will also be called intolerant.”

The BJP, careful to project its seriousness on issues of national security, adopted a two-pronged approach on the matter, with leaders like Jaswant Singh slamming the government, and Leader of Opposition Arun Jaitley expressing concern over the leak. As of now, the general has got a reprieve. Once Parliament adjourns, the knives will once again be out for him. “The government has been driven to a wall this time,” warns Adm Bhagwat. “It will bide its time and strike back like it did with me in 1998. If I were VK, I would not trust these conciliatory moves.” The saga continues. Watch this space.

Dramatis Personae: Who’s Who In The V.K. Singh Saga
A.K. Antony His Mr Clean image may be intact after six years as defence minister; but there are titters about who is really pulling the strings and dictating his decision-making process. Gen V.K. Singh Many saw the army chief as the victim in the age row, but now question the timing and tenor of his leaks and interviews to media outfits
Manmohan Singh The PM was abroad when the bribe bomb blew. He has typically been quiet about the age row, the after-effects of which, like all previous scandals afflicting it, threatens to engulf his government. Lt Gen Bikram Singh Slated to succeed V.K. Singh after he retires in May, as scheduled. The genesis of the present controversy, many say, lies in part in the behind-the-scenes efforts to ensure he gets to be the chief.
Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag Acting on a letter by a Trinamool MP, Gen V.K. Singh has ordered a CBI probe into allegations against the Dimapur-based commander of 3 Corps who is tipped to be Bikram Singh’s successor Lt Gen Tejinder Singh The ex-defence intelligence agency chief was in the running to become head of NTRO. Accused by Gen V.K. Singh of offering a Rs 14 crore bribe to clear the purchase of “sub-standard” Vectra vehicles.
Gen Deepak Kapoor Gen V.K. Singh’s camp believes that his tough stand in ensuring the indictment of Kapoor’s military secretary, Lt Gen Avadesh Prakash, in the Sukna land scam did not go down well with Kapoor Gen J.J. Singh The planned line of succession was drawn up in 2006 during his reign. As the first Sikh army chief, many believe a lobby was at work to ensure the succession of Bikram Singh, another Sikh, after V.K. Singh.

***

Four Flashbacks
1959 Gen K.S. Thimmayya vs V.K. Krishna Menon
The Squabble: The general (left) briefly steps down following a dispute with the defence minister on the army's preparedness for Sino-Indian conflict. PM Nehru refuses to accept resignation.
Result India loses to China in ’62 war 1971 Field Marshal Manekshaw vs Indira Gandhi
The Squabble When the then PM asks Manekshaw if he is ready to go to war with East Pakistan, Sam Bahadur says no, citing several reasons and offering to resign. Indira declines quit offer.
Result Pakistan surrenders unconditionally in ’71 war
1986 Gen K. Sundarji vs Arun Singh
The Squabble As rumours of kickbacks in Bofors gun deal surface, Sundarji tries to have deal cancelled by informing the then defence minister. CBI asks the general to explain his role in deal.
Result Bofors scandal claims Rajiv Gandhi government in 1989 1998 Adm Vishnu Bhagwat vs George Fernandes
The Squabble The navy chief goes public with his opposition to the Atal Behari Vajpayee-led NDA government’s decision to appoint Vice-Admiral Harinder Singh as deputy chief of the naval staff.
Result Bhagwat sacked

***

Rafale Sour grapes?

10 Unanswered Questions In V.K. Singh Affair

Have Gen V.K. Singh and defence minister A.K. Antony squandered their Mr Clean image through their recent actions and inactions?
Is somebody out to get Gen V.K. Singh? Could the powerful arms lobby and their agents and middlemen be behind leaks and plants?
Would Gen Singh have revealed the Rs 14 crore bribe had his version of DoB been accepted?
Was V.K. Singh’s letter to the PM leaked to protect A.K. Antony, who was on the mat? Or to deflect attention from the offer of bribe?
Does the flurry of charges have something to do with PM’s absence, the BRICS summit and defence expo in Delhi?
Are defence dealers who lost out on the £11.6 billion Rafale deal at work?
Could Gen Singh’s predecessors—Deepak Kapoor and J.J. Singh—get embroiled in the crosshairs?
What impact will V.K. Singh’s campaign have on successors Bikram Singh and Daljit Singh?
Could the V.K. Singh saga end up exposing top politicians across parties mired in arms deals, a la Bofors?
Will the armed forces retain the same glint in the eye of civilians henceforth? How does all this affect army rank and file?

***

3 Months That Shook The Army And Government

Army and civilian officials have sparred before, but it is the first time they are doing it through the media, capturing the nation’s attention. At the root of this still-unravelling controversy is the age row involving the army chief that went up to the Supreme Court in January this year.

March 2 A report in India Today alleges Gen V.K. Singh misused tapping facilities to listen in on what senior defence ministry officials were discussing about his age controversy. Army denies this outright, issues a press release accusing ex-Defence Intelligence Agency head, Lt Gen Tejinder Singh, of planting these stories.

March 17 ETV Rajasthan airs interview of Gen V.K. Singh with Santosh Bharatiya of Chauthi Duniya in which he claims he was offered a Rs 14 crore bribe by a senior retired army officer to clear a consignment of substandard vehicles

March 26 Gen Singh repeats the charge in an interview with The Hindu. The claim stalls Parliament proceedings for two days in a row

March 27 Defence minister A.K. Antony admits Gen Singh verbally complained about the offer, names Lt Gen Tejinder Singh. Says Gen V.K. Singh did not want to act further or file a written complaint. Orders a CBI probe.

March 27 Lt Gen Tejinder Singh files a defamation case against the army chief. Tatra too threatens suit.

March 28 The army chief’s March 12 letter written to the PM, in which he draws attention to the poor preparedness of the armed forces, is leaked to DNA and Dainik Bhaskar newspapers. SP, JD(U) demand the chief be dismissed. Government orders Intelligence Bureau to probe leak.

March 29 V.K. Singh denies he had anything to do with leak of the letter; calls leak “high treason”.

March 29 Indian Express reports that Gen V.K. Singh forwarded a letter written by TMC MP Ambica Banerjee to CBI alleging a procurement scam in the Special Frontier Force (SFF) under Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag.

***

6 Options Before Warring Parties
Gen V.K. Singh A.K. Antony

Having squandered some goodwill, work diligently toward more ‘dignified’ exit
Become a cause celebre, a la Anna Hazare, make military corruption hot-button issue
Call truce, with government assurance of a plum post-retirement position
Throw more light on scams and scandals involving predecessors and successors
With little to lose, provide more evidence of wheels within deals in armed forces
Mentor like-minded and serving army officials to clean up Augean stables.

Convince nation that he has been doing his job as defence minister for last six years
Ensure stench of military corruption doesn’t acquire political overtones
Buy peace with Gen V.K. Singh and sort out issues, man to man
Bide time till V.K. Singh’s retirement on May 31, prepare for more leaks
Sack chief right away to control further damage and appoint interim chief
Carry out overdue clean-up of armed forces to prevent electoral damage.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 31 Mar 2012 17:12

This article gives a notion of how pro-active the MoD is, in making things better for the Armed Forces.

Babudom holds back pay scale upgrade for armed forces.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 17:14

CBI not convinced with details given by Gen VK Singh

No case has been registered yet on the Army Chief's allegations.

General VK Singh had on Friday replied to the CBI and confirmed the bribe offer by a lobbyist to clear the supply of a tranche of sub-standard vehicles for the Army. General Singh also said that he will give more details soon.

Surprisingly, no bribe amount has been mentioned in the complaint by General Singh.

Meanwhile, the Centre and the Army Chief are cooling tempers after a week of charges and countercharges. After General VK Singh denied any rift between the Army and the government, Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee also said, "There is no fiasco, it has been explained by the Defence Minister on the floor of the House."

The Army Chief in a fresh statement on Friday had tried to douse the controversy. He said, "There were rogue elements trying to create a rift between the government and the Army. There was no battle between the armed forces and the Government of India and the Army and the Chief were very much a part of it."

To those questioning the timing of the controversy, he added the bribery row was revived only because the person in question re-surfaced in March. The Army Chief also said that corrective steps were taken earlier itself after talks with Defence Minister AK Anthony.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Mar 2012 17:18

^^^What are you trying to prove by the CAG numbers?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Mar 2012 17:27

chackojoseph wrote: Surprisingly, no bribe amount has been mentioned in the complaint by General Singh.

Not at all surprising. If he mentions the amount he will have to prove it and if he can't prove it he will be called liar. It's the difference between saying "I was hit" and saying "I was hit with a 11 mm diameter stick across my bottom at exactly 2-14 PM"

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 31 Mar 2012 17:52

rohitvats wrote:^^^What are you trying to prove by the CAG numbers?

Mr. Joseph seems to be doing the following, either singly or in combination:

1) Protect the "good" name of Mr. Antony
2) Trying to suggest, by implication, through all the elaborate calculation, that Tatra truck deal seems to be just fine and I guess great for our nation
3) Suggesting that Gen V. K. Singh is playing a devious game
4) BEML is doing a great job (albeit that a monopoly got created, that seemingly, for all the feverish speculation about great indigenisation of a bloody truck, could not convert a Left Hand Drive (LHD) vehicle into Right Hand Drive (RHD) one -when even if a single "Completely Knocked Down (CKD) imported and assembled" car gets launched in India the company is forced to turn it into a RHD vehicle; even if a 100 get sold.)
5) Trying to prove that CAG is the ultimate arbiter of what is right or wrong in our country
6) Play the Devil's Advocate.

All the above can be debated.

Even CAG can be taken apart in quite a few cases. With all due respect, but they are just post-facto accountants. It is like saying that a car can be driven by just looking through the rear view mirror.

But what cannot be debated is the following quote from Jaswant Singh's article in Indian Express: (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gover ... e/929622/0)

'With the Hon’ble PM and the Hon’ble RM, both very good men, I share Lord Halifax’s sneeringly patrician remark: “State craft is a cruel business, good nature is a bungler at it”.

Believe me, my good sirs, the nation is weary of your “good nature,” we crave for “good governance.” Can you now, please, for a change do just that?'

Best regards.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 18:16

rohitvats wrote:^^^What are you trying to prove by the CAG numbers?

I have put it up there so that there could be a benchmark when we look at 2008 - 2009 prices and profit percentage, since the bribe offer was supposed to be for the year 2009.

Ashutosh Malik wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^What are you trying to prove by the CAG numbers?
Mr. Joseph seems to be doing the following, either singly or in combination:

1) Protect the "good" name of Mr. Antony
2) Trying to suggest, by implication, through all the elaborate calculation, that Tatra truck deal seems to be just fine and I guess great for our nation
3) Suggesting that Gen V. K. Singh is playing a devious game
4) BEML is doing a great job (albeit that a monopoly got created, that seemingly, for all the feverish speculation about great indigenisation of a bloody truck, could not convert a Left Hand Drive (LHD) vehicle into Right Hand Drive (RHD) one -when even if a single "Completely Knocked Down (CKD) imported and assembled" car gets launched in India the company is forced to turn it into a RHD vehicle; even if a 100 get sold.)
5) Trying to prove that CAG is the ultimate arbiter of what is right or wrong in our country
6) Play the Devil's Advocate.

All the above can be debated.

Even CAG can be taken apart in quite a few cases. With all due respect, but they are just post-facto accountants. It is like saying that a car can be driven by just looking through the rear view mirror.

But what cannot be debated is the following quote from Jaswant Singh's article in Indian Express: (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gover ... e/929622/0)

'With the Hon’ble PM and the Hon’ble RM, both very good men, I share Lord Halifax’s sneeringly patrician remark: “State craft is a cruel business, good nature is a bungler at it”.

Believe me, my good sirs, the nation is weary of your “good nature,” we crave for “good governance.” Can you now, please, for a change do just that?'

Best regards.

2) did I? I said nothing has come out of the questions since 2005 (karnataka HC), 2009 vigilance.
3) is wrong. Clubbed with 1)
4) before 2008 or so, what was the alternative suggested? BEML says that it has indigenised approx 60%. The CAG report says that it was 50% in 1999. (its in above post). Pointing it out is not equal to my personal view.
5) CAG is good with raw numbers. It is its conclusions that come in for criticism. I have used the tabled raw numbers.
1) is correct, even VKS statement has been put in bold stating that. I have maintained that VKS and AKA are honest and would like to stand by them in case of their ups and downs. it is very much recorded. My first statement on VKS was (please go back and see), that he is doing the right thing by hitting the underbelly of corruption as he goes out. Other points have been repeated by me several time and would not like to do it again.
6) is correct

shiv wrote:Not at all surprising. If he mentions the amount he will have to prove it and if he can't prove it he will be called liar. It's the difference between saying "I was hit" and saying "I was hit with a 11 mm diameter stick across my bottom at exactly 2-14 PM"

Yes. That's correct. At the same time, the paper quotes him saying that he will give more details soon.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Mar 2012 19:39

shiv wrote: Not at all surprising. If he mentions the amount he will have to prove it and if he can't prove it he will be called liar. It's the difference between saying "I was hit" and saying "I was hit with a 11 mm diameter stick across my bottom at exactly 2-14 PM"

In a criminal case, it is the state that is supposed to do the investigating and proving. The complainant just gives whatever information he has. That assumes the state really has a genuine interest in finding and punishing the criminal, is not always a valid assumption.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2012 20:19

Defence Minister promised to remove anomalies in pension: Army Chief

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 31 Mar 2012 21:26

nelson wrote:For all those supporting Mr Ravi Rishi and taking his words for Gospel...

"I will sell my trucks to not so friendly neighbors…” threatens Tatra’s Ravi Rishi

http://aerospacediary.blogspot.in/2012/ ... o-not.html

Nice. Time to send this guy on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 31 Mar 2012 22:46

nelson wrote:This article gives a notion of how pro-active the MoD is, in making things better for the Armed Forces.

Babudom holds back pay scale upgrade for armed forces.

One of India's biggest security problems is low salaries in the military. Both Gen VKS and Defense Minister should probably team up and try to revamp the salaries of both civilians and army men - by a factor 10 for starters!

Practically speaking, a soldier who does not have to worry about money, and will know that this family will be adequately taken care of in case he is killed, will be motivated to give his best in the battlefield and fight fearlessly. This plus generous training will be more impotant in my view than all the expensive high technology assets - Sukhois etc.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 31 Mar 2012 22:52

What happens when immovable rock (AKA) meets with unstoppable force (VKS)??

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 31 Mar 2012 22:58

immovable rock moves out of the way or else the fall out in public image covers the rock in slime

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 31 Mar 2012 23:27

unstoppable force causes self-injury due to mistake in judgment

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Mar 2012 23:31

rajrang wrote:unstoppable force causes self-injury due to mistake in judgment

Such immovable forces are trained to do precisely do that if necessary, and also believe in self sacrifice for greater good of the country.

A concept alien to dhimmi's, dalals and court jokers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Mar 2012 23:31

chackojoseph wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^What are you trying to prove by the CAG numbers?
I have put it up there so that there could be a benchmark when we look at 2008 - 2009 prices and profit percentage, since the bribe offer was supposed to be for the year 2009.

Well, you seem to have suspended the reasoning part here.

What connection has the profit of BEML got to do with bribe offered to VKS? Only thing those numbers prove is that ex-BEML price of TATRA was INR 85L and it was making 3% profit on each vehicle. The other report about Kolar field talks about 4x4 TATRA vehicle..not exactly the type ordered in large number by IA.

Now, what needs to be seen is the price of TATRA ex-factory in Europe.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Apr 2012 00:19

Continuing from my previous post -

here is a link which has details of commercial TATRA trucks on sale in the market. Please see the listing here:http://autoline.info/stock.php?cat=001&tm=2786&ym0=2006

Price of 2006-07 TATRA trucks is in the range of Euro 40K-50K. And this is the asking price for a single vehicle. At Euro/INR exchange rate of ~70, this translates into a price of INR 28L-INR 35L.

If this is the price of a single truck, what kind price would a bulk order, and a year-on-year repeat bulk order, would fetch?

CJ, can you answer this?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Apr 2012 00:22

Ramana Saar, a request in forum feedback thread.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Apr 2012 00:47

rajrang wrote:
nelson wrote:This article gives a notion of how pro-active the MoD is, in making things better for the Armed Forces.

Babudom holds back pay scale upgrade for armed forces.

One of India's biggest security problems is low salaries in the military. Both Gen VKS and Defense Minister should probably team up and try to revamp the salaries of both civilians and army men - by a factor 10 for starters!

Practically speaking, a soldier who does not have to worry about money, and will know that this family will be adequately taken care of in case he is killed, will be motivated to give his best in the battlefield and fight fearlessly. This plus generous training will be more impotant in my view than all the expensive high technology assets - Sukhois etc.

Huh

Kaha se milta hai aisa namoone views on this forum. No guns needs and just motivation will defeat the enemy. If motivation is enough then the west was already defeated.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 01 Apr 2012 02:21

Every military force in the world is paid, less than what the local private economy can provide for similarly qualified individuals. After the 6th pay commission, things are really not that bad by Indian standards, even if there are still a few rank related gripes.

A SSC is very attractive to many young brave souls, who can easily go to have a second career after 14 glorious years in the forces.

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 01 Apr 2012 05:10

Heard news in undi TV that UN has asked india to remove ASPA. Guess what Chindu got the point to amend it, now it's new war. Hope commando VKS wins

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Apr 2012 05:38

rohitvats wrote:Continuing from my previous post -

here is a link which has details of commercial TATRA trucks on sale in the market. Please see the listing here:http://autoline.info/stock.php?cat=001&tm=2786&ym0=2006

Price of 2006-07 TATRA trucks is in the range of Euro 40K-50K. And this is the asking price for a single vehicle. At Euro/INR exchange rate of ~70, this translates into a price of INR 28L-INR 35L.

If this is the price of a single truck, what kind price would a bulk order, and a year-on-year repeat bulk order, would fetch?

CJ, can you answer this?

And also why 7000(approx) trucks later it still has a left hand drive and critical components are still not indegenised??

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 01 Apr 2012 05:50

Sandeep Unnithan's hitjob on VKS to be India Today's cover story.

Link disabled to prevent Unnithan chappie getting more hits.

Excerpts:

General Vijay Kumar Singh began to plan his revenge on February 10, the day the Supreme Court struck down his effort to prolong his tenure as Army chief through a change in the date of his birth. His rage was silent and invisible. He planned his offensive with military precision. He seemed indifferent to the fact that, in the process, sensitive national interests might get hurt.

His three-pronged offensive was well timed: the week beginning March 26. Parliament would be in session, but the spotlight would have shifted from the Budget and be available to his controversies. Delhi would also host the BRICS Summit that week; and a military-civilian confrontation would get sensational play before the heads of China and Russia, to the acute embarrassment of the Indian Government. This last was designed for maximum outrage.

Oh, read it all only. Speaks of the rock bottom cred of the UPA sarkar that people are willing to believe the worst about them beforehand itself. And are usually proven right eventually.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2012 06:12

Ramanna,Badar,Shyam D,guys,Your points are well made.I maintain that unless the political parties/parliament gets its act together,the tsunami waves of this scam will cripple major defence acquisition for another decade or two.Bofors paralysed bold initiatives being taken in the interests of the nation's security and the HDW scandal,case dropped aeons for lack of evidence,saw the indigenous manufacture of subs killed,allowing Pak to take the lead in sub building in the IOR and has left the IA in the perilous situ it is in today.

The Q is what is being done about the contents of the good general's letter? No one seems to be bothered about it,perhaps Jaswant Singh one of the few exceptions. The khadi capped political tribe seems to have united together to demand sacking of the "whistleblower general",fearing that their own sins and misdemeanours might also surface if the general has his way! Their ghoulies must be "cooching" in their dhoties .

In retrospect,as said before by many,this affair exposes the fact that never before has the relationship between the forces and govt. of the day been so distant and poor.There is virtually little element of trust between the chiefs and their bosses in the MOD and PMO.The Def.Min. has proven to be an unmitigated disaster.From his own mouth and statements we now know that he did b*gger all about corruption,perhaps understandable as the tentacles of the arms lobby monster were too many for him to cut off,but his dereliction of duty in seeing that the forces were well equipped is unforgivable.A couple of years ago a knowledgeable pal in Delhi told me of the frustration in the forces as (St.) Anthony just sat on decisions doing very little concrete work.The Def. Min. of India needs to be a man of action not an immobile statue.

The PM must also take his share of the blame for being so unconcerned about the nation's security,ready to barter it all away with Pak (the S-al-S fiasco),blind to the threat from China,unable to strongly defend Indian sovereignty either diplomatically (stapled visas and Ar.Pr. and PLA troops in POK) or militarily (stopping PLA incursions ) and bringing to justice Paki terrorists /punishing Pak for 26/11.Dr.Singh has now had almost two terms of office in which to have restored the health of the Indian armed forces.The situ today is so critical that if we are faced with any aggro from the Sino-Pak combine,another '62 might be on the cards.A few years ago I said that thanks to MMS's reluctance to strengthen India's defence and total reliance upon the US of A to bail us out,a window of opportunity would exist for the PRC ,in cahoots with the Pakis,to "teach" us another lesson as in '62.

The Fin Min must also come in for severe criticism,for failing to acknowledge the health of the armed forces and need to modernise it.Refusing to provide the funds for military modernisation is truly tragic,as infusion of investment into local manufacture of def. eqpt. will be a major boost to the economy,so dependent upon imports.As said earlier,unless the PM and cabinet,in concert with the Opposition take up the matter of the armed forces' health, most seriously ,and get the CBI,CAG,CVC into action to keep out arms dealers and middlemen,the consequences of this dereliction of duty could be catastrophic for the nation.

PS:Already the consequences of the UNHC resolution on Sri Lanka has come like a bombshell upon us,as Ramanna rightly pointed out,that it was "all about India",with the UN demand for the AFSPA act to be withdrawn,even before the ink has had time to dry upon the Geneva resolution,indicating that it was all planned in advance.!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Apr 2012 06:36

Hari

would not suggest giving Unnithan anymore hits

peter · Post by **peter** » 01 Apr 2012 06:39

chackojoseph wrote:CBI not convinced with details given by Gen VK Singh

No case has been registered yet on the Army Chief's allegations.

No. Case is registered. Please do check your sources. Don't pedal stale stories as you have been doing thus far.

Infact Tatra truck deal: Antony faces jail for neglect of duty?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Apr 2012 06:46

Tatra truck deal case: CBI impounds passport of British businessman Ravi Rishi