China Military Watch - August 9, 2014

[Liu]

W/ Al-31 clone engine, when is WS-10 entering production?

1.Hundreds of WS10 have entered into service.

The upgrade version of ws10 is to be finished.

2. R&d of engines needs lots of infrastructures such as labs,wind tunnels,and air testing~beds.
When china started to develop ws10 in1990s, china had most of The r&d infrastrures ready.so,ws10 can be tested in china,instead of russia.

However, It seems that india would spend billions of dollars buying foreign weapons rather than building its own labs,wind tunnel,testing~beds and supercomputers.

So,india has no ready r&d infrastructures yet,and has to send its kavery engine to russia for test.

[Liu]

Ws10 and its variety is enough to run chinese most birds except j20 and j31.
BUT ws10 is still one generation behind yankees.
only ws15 can help china catch up and keep neck by neck with USA.
Before ws15 is finished, chinese engine tech is about 30-40 years (one generation) behind usa.

[shiv]

2. R&d of engines needs lots of infrastructures such as labs,wind tunnels,and air testing~beds.
When china started to develop ws10 in1990s, china had most of The r&d infrastrures ready.so,ws10 can be tested in china,instead of russia.

However, It seems that india would spend billions of dollars buying foreign weapons rather than building its own labs,wind tunnel,testing~beds and supercomputers.

So,india has no ready r&d infrastructures yet,and has to send its kavery engine to russia for test.

There. exactly as I predicted earlier - the fallacy of assuming that this thread is peopled by blind Indian jingos, no Chinese, and must therefore be used for howling and crying about India to re-educate the Indian jingos who run riot on here

So on the Chinese military discussion thread on BRF , we have a person with an ostensibly Chinese name taking a bitchy swipe at India. That is OK. We expect the Chinese to do that. But this is precisely why I object to Indians coming on here to do exactly the same thing, praise China, buttkick Indian efforts and howl indignantly that they are doing it because there are no Chinese here and all Indians are blind jingos who know nothing and need to be taught by scathing criticism from visiting Chinese and resident Indians

Bah. I think that is totally pathetic.

"One generation behind the USA in engines" is the most laughable bullshit I have heard in recent years. The WS 10 needs servicing every 30 hours, while US engines are running tens of thousands or hours.

[Paul]

India has to manage one manageable flea bitten street dog and one 800 lb gorilla on it's borders.

China has to manage one 1500 lb gorilla, a whole wolf pack in SCS, & two tigers. Now let's figure out who has bigger problems

[shiv]

Those of us who can remember what was happening in the world in the 1950s and 60s will recall that China was hand in glove with the Soviets, acquiring nuclear technology, Tu-16s, MiG 15, MiG 17. MiG 19 and MiG 21, An-2, An 12, Il-28 etc. Soon after Russia and China fell out and Chine went into the doldrums. The Chinese could then no longer import from anyone, and started cloning aircraft. The made the MiG 19 and MiG 21, later creating the A-5 from the MiG 19 and the J-7 from the MiG 21. Similarly they cloned the An-12 and Tu 16 - which are still flying today in large numbers in crucial areas.

But the US, desperate to defeat the Soviets wooed Pakistan and China in the 1970s and gradually China started acquiring western technology. It is our Indian tendency to self flagellate that makes us howl about being the biggest arms importers. Go back to reports posted right here on BRF a decade ago and you find that China was the biggest arms importer. The Chinese got a whole lot of stuff. the origins of the JF-17 lie with the Northrop F-5 and the J-10 with the Lavi. Russia's financial situation and a booming Chinese economy has allowed the Chinese to import Su-27s and much other stuff including S-400s .

Whatever the details might be - China has faced its own problems and charted its own path. India should not figure here at all. India has its problems and shall chart its own path. This thread is about what is good or bad about the Chinese military. It is NOT about the Indian military. There is a serious rhetorical problem that arises from discussing India in this thread, because the minute we allow a change of focus of thread, the focus will be changed when it becomes inconvenient to stay on focus.

To rehash a old example I have used on BRF - its the "Torn shirt versus open fly" argument

Person 1: You have a torn shirt
Person 2: So what? Your fly is open

The China critic says "China's WS 10 has severe reliability issues"
The China supporter cannot deny this so he responds by saying "India leads in lack of toilets and the Tejas is still not in service. Give your people toilets first"

Fact is that both are true, The WS 10 is unreliable. India does lead in lack of toilets and the Tejas is barely in service. But the topic has been deftly changed from the subject of Chinese engines to something that can be used to bash India. The Chinese and Pakis use this tactic all the time. Why on earth are Indians so blind that they fall for this trick time and again and insist that they are being truthful and righteous. This is the damn China military thread. Not the Indian toilet or Indian engines or Tejas thread

[Liu]

2. R&d of engines needs lots of infrastructures such as labs,wind tunnels,and air testing~beds.
When china started to develop ws10 in1990s, china had most of The r&d infrastrures ready.so,ws10 can be tested in china,instead of russia.

However, It seems that india would spend billions of dollars buying foreign weapons rather than building its own labs,wind tunnel,testing~beds and supercomputers.

So,india has no ready r&d infrastructures yet,and has to send its kavery engine to russia for test.

There. exactly as I predicted earlier - the fallacy of assuming that this thread is peopled by blind Indian jingos, no Chinese, and must therefore be used for howling and crying about India to re-educate the Indian jingos who run riot on here

So on the Chinese military discussion thread on BRF , we have a person with an ostensibly Chinese name taking a bitchy swipe at India. That is OK. We expect the Chinese to do that. But this is precisely why I object to Indians coming on here to do exactly the same thing, praise China, buttkick Indian efforts and howl indignantly that they are doing it because there are no Chinese here and all Indians are blind jingos who know nothing and need to be taught by scathing criticism from visiting Chinese and resident Indians

Bah. I think that is totally pathetic.

"One generation behind the USA in engines" is the most laughable bullshit I have heard in recent years. The WS 10 needs servicing every 30 hours, while US engines are running tens of thousands or hours.

1. There were many Chinese like you in china not long ago,who rejected any 'bitchy swipe' at their homeland.
Those Chinese usually called 'Fengqin'.
To my joy, with china develop rapidly, Chinese become more confident on china, and the number of chinese Fengqin decrease much.

2.why not build a great firewall against chinese here,if you mind Chinese reading BR So much?


3. I am glad that you hesitate to admit ws10 can work ,though 'need serving 30 hours'.
That is a developement.
I still remember that not long ago, you doubt The existence of ws10.


4. Your impression on ws10 is quite outdated and not correct,IMHO.

[Liu]

Here is how ws10 were developed,according to my collection.

1.in 2005, The design of ws10 was finalized.

2.during 2005-2010, ws10 was rejected once by PLAAF, because of poor quality control and frequent failures.
So,china had to import many al31 engines during The time.

3. 2011-2014, ws10 bacame 'acceptable' to PLAAF, because quality controll was improved.
However,it performanced stilll poorer than al31,So It was still just 'acceptable',not 'preferable'.
So, PLAAF still went on importing al31 engines from russia.


4. In 2015 or so, Ws10 seemed to be 'preferable' to Plaaf .
The follow news proved it.

One plaaf pilot with ws10 powered j11 won The 'gold helmet' (The top honour of plaaf pilots) for The first time in 2015. Usually ,The honour belonged to pilots with al31 powered birds.

J11h powered by ws10 'topgun bowled' Usa spy plane in south china sea,which showing good performace of ws10.

J10C powered by ws10 appeared,which showed PLAAF was confident on The reliabilty of ws10 already,because j10C is a sole~engine bird.

Besides, The upgraded version of ws10 was design~finalized in 2015 too,and The news of The celebration was publiced. It showed that upgraded ws10 might be The alternative of j20 for time being ,as well as ws15 and russia engine.

[Liu]

So, IMHO,now china has its own workable mainstream engines( al31/m88-level).

BUT It is still a long long way for china to catch up with Usa,until ws15 proves to be a qualfied engine for j20.

As for russia, russia would be left behind gradually and out during The race,simplly because its crapply economy can not afford The race.


The race of engine~r&d is just a game of money.
The total investment on The lastest engine like ws15 might be more than The yearly defense expenditure of india.

So,from The beginning, most countries are out of The game,simplly because they can not afford them.

[shiv]

3. I am glad that you hesitate to admit ws10 can work ,though 'need serving 30 hours'.
That is a developement.
I still remember that not long ago, you doubt The existence of ws10.


4. Your impression on ws10 is quite outdated and not correct,IMHO.

Boss - the day China starts openly exhibiting their stuff on foreign soil all your words become more believable.

I love your firewall idea. A typical instance of cognitive bias where you believe that everyone in the world thinks and behaves like your countrymen.

Nothing wrong in having an engine that needs overhaul every 30 hours if that is what Chinese want. But if some others do not want an engine like that but would rather take development to a higher level, they will do that and not necessarily copy China with its firewalls, photoshop and caginess.

Please provide a comprehensive list of ALL Chinese fighter aircraft crashes from 2010 to 2014. These figures are provided by every country in the world, but not China. You are welcome to apply my own argument against me and tell me that China need not behave like India or the US. If you do that I will agree with you 100%. That is what I am saying too. China is not behaving like other more open nations. The Chinese use bluster, subterfuge and opacity whenever it is convenient.

So please have a charminar and a lime-juice. No one is saying China is useless, but I will be looking critically at China because Chinese like to boast, but have nothing to show at airshows or defence equipment shows, and plenty of complaints that copies are being made. No one knows exactly how well those copies work. But the order for hundreds Al 31 engines from Russia tell a story of their own. In Hindi there is a saying that I would like to repeat here "Seedha jaake left turn karo". And keep moving.

[Yagnasri]

Is killing a "spy plane" an achievement for any fighter?

[Liu]

http://m.cjdby.net/forum.php?mod=viewth ... 6&mobile=1
One peak forum on Chinese aero~space engines is on now.
Cd,the Chinese famous website is interviewing chinese top relative scientist about ws10.

The life~span of Ws10 is 2000 hours.

Its last heat~endure components can endure 500~hour~long continuous spray.
However, The scientist admit that usa's One can endure 3000 hours continuous spray.

Thus,Usa is stilll far far ahead.
王副所长在回答超大提问时表示：太行发动机的寿命已经达到2000小时，ws10b与ws15采用陶瓷基复合材料的热端件寿命已通过500小时连续试验，采用陶瓷基的热端件虽然目前状态还可以，但也存在氧化现象，尤其是一些碳化硅材料，氧化明显。

顺便刷白一下裤衩，与美帝的3000小时热端件寿命还相差

[shiv]

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/j-20-stea ... 12782.html

Does India need to worry about Chinese stealth fighter J-20?

AVM Manmohan Bahadur

News reports have appeared in the Indian media about the presence of the Chinese J-20 stealth fighter at Daocheng Yading in Tibet, the highest civilian airport in the world.

One article carries a photograph of a J-20 on a rain-swept tarmac, with the aircraft draped in a camouflage net - desert camouflage pattern!

Surprisingly, there are no chocks on wheels (to stop the aircraft from rolling) and the photograph shows a small hill in the background - no identifiable features of the airport are visible.

The photographs, as per the article, appeared in China on the social micro blogging site Weibo and on two websites just "days before PM Narendra Modi travels to China for G-20" and "days after China warned India against deploying BrahMos missile along the Himalayas".

A news brief was also carried as a lead item by its national television arm and the two conveyed an alarmist view of an event that otherwise is a normal milestone in the development cycle of a new aeroplane.

Unfortunately, this view has been generated by many other media articles too, one of which stated that China has moved stealth fighter into Tibet! It is time a professional assessment of the "sighting" of the J-20 in Tibet is undertaken.

That the J-20 programme has entered the low rate of initial production has been widely reported in the press, both Chinese and Western.

After the first prototype flew on January 11, 2011, seven more prototypes have been built for various phases of testing.

The test flying has proceeded at a very fast pace such that the first squadron would reportedly get established in 2017 with aircraft having initial operational clearance.

Many photographs of the aircraft have also appeared, but surprisingly there have been no images of two J-20s flying together or any armament being fired (only images of open weapons bay are available).

The deductions with this type of background information are:

1. The prototype testing of the J-20 is still work in progress.

2. Even though the first squadron may get raised by 2017, the operational capability would not be that of a fully operational squadron as some clearances would come only after all aspects of the flight envelope are explored.

3. The squadron would, in parallel, work up the standard operating procedures and train pilots in basic handling and procedures of the J-20.

4. The aircraft is powered by Russian engines which do not give it super cruise capability (speed more than the speed of sound with no afterburner).

Thus, the J-20 is not a true fifth generation fighter at present. The super cruise capability may come once the indigenous WS-15 engine gets cleared - this is still some distance away as the Chinese are facing problems of reliability in indigenous power plants.

5. It is a well-known fact that the paint work and skin finish play an important role in making an aircraft stealthy; hence, the very casual way in which the camouflage net has been draped on the aircraft in the photo, with loose flapping strings, shows that stealth is not being given its due, despite the hype that surrounds it.

So, is the aircraft really stealthy, for if it was then the net would not have been draped the way it is.

6. That the aircraft landed and took off from an airfield at 14,000ft is indeed creditable (considering that the photo is genuine).

But, this is just half the story. What would be operationally relevant is the information about the payload it carried and the ambient temperatures it operated in.

So, what was the J-20 doing in the high altitude airfield?

The answer is, just what the Indian Tejas was doing at the high altitude airfield at Leh some months back - these aircrafts have operated from high altitude airfields as part of their hot and high prototype testing, which are mandatory as part of clearance of their flight envelope.

What the photo does confirm is that the capability to operate from Tibet may be part of the task for the J-20.

Many more visits to Tibet would be required to test out the aircraft in cold weather conditions, especially an engine start after an overnight "cold soak" in the open.

This test is indeed critical, besides many more to check out its systems, especially the avionics and radar, in the extreme cold conditions that prevail in Tibet.

The appearance, thus, of the J-20 in Tibet being linked to either the visit of PM Modi to China or the decision to place BrahMos missiles on India's borders is incorrect.

It is not "signalling" being done for geopolitical reasons but just part of flight testing that any aviation system goes through.

However, the message that does come through to India is that in some years to come, the Indian Air Force must prepare for the presence of a fifth generation fighter that can operate from high altitude air fields in Tibet.

It can only get interesting from here - the last word on stealth in Tibet has not been said yet.

(Courtesy of Mail Today.)

[Singha]

^^ it almost looks like shiv or indranil wrote it on brf.

[Liu]

Does India need to worry about Chinese stealth fighter J-20?
~l~
Well,the article is somewhat professional,i think.

It is reported that some prototpye of j20 powered by upgrade ws10 appears.


It is consistent with The news that upgrade ws10 was finished in 2015.

[shiv]

^^ it almost looks like shiv or indranil wrote it on brf.

The only difference is I try not to put topic titles that ask rhetorical questions which can get answers that I don't want to hear.

I might have said "Why the J-20 is not all that it is made out to be"

[shiv]

Does India need to worry about Chinese stealth fighter J-20?
~l~
Well,the article is somewhat professional,i think.

It is reported that some prototpye of j20 powered by upgrade ws10 appears.


It is consistent with The news that upgrade ws10 was finished in 2015.

There is an article by a Russian who points out that China bought the Al 31 servicing rights with drawings - and those are very similar to production. But he says the WS 10 is only 70% similar to the Al-31and praises Chinese engineering skills here. So if what the man says is right - the WS 10 has 30% difference from Al 31. Don't know what that means but it is still 70% copy and lower reliability than Al-31

[Singha]

the WS10 was initially copied from the CFM56 engine dismantling iirc.

its the family of engines that powers the 737 and A32x family

but obviously just copying and scaling the shape is not enough and a lot goes into materials and a lot behaves differently ... hence the struggle over MTBF and servicing

[darshhan]

The main problem with chinese is that everyone these days has read Sun Tzu. Plus the current crop of chinese leadership has very less originality. Hence they are becoming increasingly frustrated.

[darshhan]

This version of Sun Tzu(art of war) is available on amazon. The kindle edition for the same is available for $0.00 (You read that right).

https://www.amazon.com/Art-War-Sun-Tzu/ ... nav-subnav

[Liu]

the WS10 was initially copied from the CFM56 engine dismantling iirc.

its the family of engines that powers the 737 and A32x family

but obviously just copying and scaling the shape is not enough and a lot goes into materials and a lot behaves differently ... hence the struggle over MTBF and servicing

Finally,One professional guy appeared,otherwise,i thought br has been ocuupied by shiv.
You are right,ws10 is The cousin of cfm56.

Both share The same core .chinese get cfm56 for study when usa was in honeymoon with china in 1980s.
As a whole, ws10=cfm56's core + chinese own uncore
It is the orgin of early mode ws10.
Of course, The ws10 was design~fanalized 10 years ago. In The past 10 years,more and more native tech&material have been applied to The later modes of ws10.

Thus ,It is too harsh to simply label ws10 today 'The copy of xx'.

Those blahing ws10 is copy of al31 are ignorant.

[rsingh]

The main problem with chinese is that everyone these days has read Sun Tzu. Plus the current crop of chinese leadership has very less originality. Hence they are becoming increasingly frustrated.

[shiv]

Thus ,It is too harsh to simply label ws10 today 'The copy of xx'.

Those blahing ws10 is copy of al31 are ignorant.

OK so it's based on a copy of the CFM 56. Nothing wrong. The Chinese geopolitical situation has called for copying and everyone knows that copying has been raised to a fine art in China.

While good copies are praiseworthy if they are useful to the manufacturer, I have been trying to figure out the logic behind accepting very poor quality as a great achievement. Poor quality must always be flagged as poor quality and a production line must not be set up allowing pilots to be killed by that.

Here is the best source I have found yet about the WS 10
http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/ws-10

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[8] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[9] Despite AVIC's issues with quality control, mass production of the WS-10 series engines would contribute significantly in improving Chinese industrial capabilities.[10]

If the engines last only 30 hours, exactly what sort of logic says that mass production of such faulty engines is a good thing.

As I see it mas production of faulty stuff would be rejected outright in most self respecting countries. How would mass manufacture of faulty engines contribute to technological progress? I can only see a propaganda effort in saying "Chinese pilots like the WS 10 more and it is being mass produced"

[Liu]

Thus ,It is too harsh to simply label ws10 today 'The copy of xx'.

Those blahing ws10 is copy of al31 are ignorant.

OK so it's based on a copy of the CFM 56. Nothing wrong. The Chinese geopolitical situation has called for copying and everyone knows that copying has been raised to a fine art in China.

While good copies are praiseworthy if they are useful to the manufacturer, I have been trying to figure out the logic behind accepting very poor quality as a great achievement. Poor quality must always be flagged as poor quality and a production line must not be set up allowing pilots to be killed by that.

Here is the best source I have found yet about the WS 10
http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/ws-10

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[8] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[9] Despite AVIC's issues with quality control, mass production of the WS-10 series engines would contribute significantly in improving Chinese industrial capabilities.[10]

If the engines last only 30 hours, exactly what sort of logic says that mass production of such faulty engines is a good thing.

As I see it mas production of faulty stuff would be rejected outright in most self respecting countries. How would mass manufacture of faulty engines contribute to technological progress? I can only see a propaganda effort in saying "Chinese pilots like the WS 10 more and it is being mass produced"

Guy,it was in 2009..
FromThe beginning, i stated that during 2005-2010 ws10a was once rejected by PLAAF for poor quality control and frequent failures.

Almost 7 years has passed.case has changed
Much.

Ws10a became 'acceptable' to plaaf after 2011.
Many birds accept ws10a gradually ,such as j11d,j11h and j15.

Now,ws10b was finished and became The alternative of j20.

[Liu]

Thus ,It is too harsh to simply label ws10 today 'The copy of xx'.

Those blahing ws10 is copy of al31 are ignorant.

OK so it's based on a copy of the CFM 56. Nothing wrong. The Chinese geopolitical situation has called for copying and everyone knows that copying has been raised to a fine art in China.

While good copies are praiseworthy if they are useful to the manufacturer, I have been trying to figure out the logic behind accepting very poor quality as a great achievement. Poor quality must always be flagged as poor quality and a production line must not be set up allowing pilots to be killed by that.

Here is the best source I have found yet about the WS 10
http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/ws-10

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左鸣), stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[8] In addition to poor build quality, the engines suffered from poor reliability, the Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[9] Despite AVIC's issues with quality control, mass production of the WS-10 series engines would contribute significantly in improving Chinese industrial capabilities.[10]

If the engines last only 30 hours, exactly what sort of logic says that mass production of such faulty engines is a good thing.

As I see it mas production of faulty stuff would be rejected outright in most self respecting countries. How would mass manufacture of faulty engines contribute to technological progress? I can only see a propaganda effort in saying "Chinese pilots like the WS 10 more and it is being mass produced"

Guy,it was in 2009..
At first, i stated that during 2005-2010 ws10a was once rejected by PLAAF for poor quality control and frequent.

Almost 7 years has passed.case has changed
Much.

Ws10a became 'acceptable' to plaaf after 2011.
Many birds accept ws10a gradually ,such as j11d,j11h and j15.

Now,ws10b was finished and became The alternative of j20.

[shiv]

Almost 7 years has passed.case has changed

What are J-10 crash statistics?
Why is China ordering so many Al 31s?

[Suresh S]

Money and critical technologies.I would go a bit off topic to make a point. Professor liu says they are investing more in developing ws-15 than India,s whole defense budget. good luck to u sir.

First the most important theory in human history according to me the "general theory of relativity" required no money but Einstein,s brain. No amount of chinese or anyone else,s money could come up with that theory.

second the most important discovery in human history in biology "structure of DNA" was only possible in 1953 because of Francis crick,s intelligence. Once again no amount of money on earth could make that happen that year without crick,s brain. It is also true that yes u needed a proper lab, someone like watson asking appropriate biology questions and even some theft on part of a young watson of xray diffraction data but most important was crick,s intelligence and that has nothing to do with money.

India,s own success in space exploration once again has more to do with human element than money.

Sir I state humbly money is important but not enough to do great things, even aero-engines without the human element which is not related to money.

On a lighter note saudy Arabia has(or had) plenty of money.

[shiv]

Professor liu says they are investing more in developing ws-15 than India,s whole defense budget. good luck to u sir.

Hmm did he say that? I missed it. but this is precisely why I ask that we do not flagellate on here when we have people to come and flay and criticize us. Long ago I had mentioned how the Brits would crinkle their noses in disgust at the best foreign products but swell and glow with pride at British crap. The Chinese have that pride, but pride has been beaten out of Indians and Indians are taught to consider everyone else better, and objecting to that is bashed down as an example of false pride.

No one knows exactly how much fails and how much succeeds in China, but we only hear of the successes.

Now 2009 was so soo long ago that all 6 year old children were born after that (about 100 million Pakis), but take a look at this
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1877321 ... eficiency/

With its Western-inspired and locally-designed single-engine configuration, however, the J-10 suffers from severe compatibility issues in using the AL-31. At the same time, the Chinese-designed WS-10 aircraft engines have proven even less reliable than the Russian equipment.

Despite claims made in 2014 by a spokesman for the Chinese research institute tasked with the WS-10’s development that the engine was “fully operational and matured” for use in an upgraded J-10, a Sina report this August revealed that the Chinese aviation industry had yet to reduce the Taihang’s failure rate to within acceptable boundaries. The Chinese air force and in particular the J-10 jets will continue to run Russian engines.

I have repeatedly stated that China's efforts at engine making are commendable, but its China's bluffing, lies and boasting that devalue any real advances they may have made. It may be a Sun Tzu tactic to keep the enemy guessing but it also causes ROFL when the Chinese are unable to proudly cock a snook at others and display their products in the open market - at military shows. China cannot hide behind photoshop and propagandu forever. That has been going on too long

[Liu]

Money and critical technologies.I would go a bit off topic to make a point. Professor liu says they are investing more in developing ws-15 than India,s whole defense budget. good luck to u sir.

First the most important theory in human history according to me the "general theory of relativity" required no money but Einstein,s brain. No amount of chinese or anyone else,s money could come up with that theory.

second the most important discovery in human history in biology "structure of DNA" was only possible in 1953 because of Francis crick,s intelligence. Once again no amount of money on earth could make that happen that year without crick,s brain. It is also true that yes u needed a proper lab, someone like watson asking appropriate biology questions and even some theft on part of a young watson of xray diffraction data but most important was crick,s intelligence and that has nothing to do with money.

India,s own success in space exploration once again has more to do with human element than money.

Sir I state humbly money is important but not enough to do great things, even aero-engines without the human element which is not related to money.

On a lighter note saudy Arabia has(or had) plenty of money.

Enough Money does not naturally bringThe success of programms like ws15.

Only clever longsighted investment can bring fruits.

For example
S.arabia,spends more defence expenditure than france/uk/russia.
However,s.arabia would spend billions of dollars buying luxery weapons rather than bulid its onw labs and industry bases.

So,s.arabia would never develope any decent weapons even like cannons,however much Money It has.

[Liu]

Almost 7 years has passed.case has changed

What are J-10 crash statistics?
Why is China ordering so many Al 31s?

The eaiest anwser is that china is producing new birds more than people thought and its engine industry can provide for time being.


Besides,you should notice most al31 were ordered When ws10 was 'rejected'(2005-2010) and 'just accetable'（2011-2014）.

After 2015（ws10a became mature and ws10b started powering j10c）,china seems to be Only interested on russia lastest engines for j20 .


The deal of su35 perfectly reflects how china is Only interested on The lastest engine.

[shiv]

What are the fighter crash statistics in China? What reports can you show me about prototype accidents? This is open information in most countries because there is nothing to hide. If the plane keeps crashing you can force your pilots to fly it, but if you export it, others will soon find out the real quality. Other than whoristan no one is buying Chinese fighters yet. The whole world will fear China more if you can demonstrate the truth by exporting complete aircraft with engines which even Yugoslavia and Romania did

China is producing more birds than engines is simply a boast. It means that the engines are imported and the indigenous engines are not there to power it and all reports indicate poor quality as the reason. What is the shame in admitting this? Why do Chinese feel ashamed to tell the truth?

[shiv]

After 2015（ws10a became mature and ws10b started powering j10c）,china seems to be Only interested on russia lastest engines for j20 .


The deal of su35 perfectly reflects how china is Only interested on The lastest engine.

If the WS 15 is such a great success because of all the trillions poured in then why is China interested in Russian engines? Russia is 10-15 years behind the west in engine tech. Why do the Chinese boast that they are only 10 years behind the west and yet want the latest Russian engines? Are the Chinese trying to go backwards by 5 years? How can anyone believe what you say when you are not spending much on telling the truth and pretend that everyone else is blind?

Outside China, right or wrong, there is a strong impression that the Chinese government demands that all Chinese follow the propaganda line that they dictate, and so the media are full of sometimes conflicting information where some Chinese blurts out an uncomfortable truth and he is rapidly arrested or shut up. Under the circumstances it makes great sense to disbelieve what the Chinese claim until there is clear evidence that something is working well. If the Chinese reduce conflicting boasts it would be easier to believe Chinese achievements. For a while the world will believe China. Later these boasts only become a source for ROTFL for others

[Liu]

What are the fighter crash statistics in China? What reports can you show me about prototype accidents? This is open information in most countries because there is nothing to hide. If the plane keeps crashing you can force your pilots to fly it, but if you export it, others will soon find out the real quality. Other than whoristan no one is buying Chinese fighters yet. The whole world will fear China more if you can demonstrate the truth by exporting complete aircraft with engines which even Yugoslavia and Romania did

China is producing more birds than engines is simply a boast. It means that the engines are imported and the indigenous engines are not there to power it and all reports indicate poor quality as the reason. What is the shame in admitting this? Why do Chinese feel ashamed to tell the truth?

[Liu]

What are the fighter crash statistics in China? What reports can you show me about prototype accidents? This is open information in most countries because there is nothing to hide. If the plane keeps crashing you can force your pilots to fly it, but if you export it, others will soon find out the real quality. Other than whoristan no one is buying Chinese fighters yet. The whole world will fear China more if you can demonstrate the truth by exporting complete aircraft with engines which even Yugoslavia and Romania did

China is producing more birds than engines is simply a boast. It means that the engines are imported and the indigenous engines are not there to power it and all reports indicate poor quality as the reason. What is the shame in admitting this? Why do Chinese feel ashamed to tell the truth?

1. Did i deny The failure?
No. From The beginning, i stated that ws10 was rejected once during 2005-2010.

2. Ws10 's failure during 2005-2010 mainly was caused by quality controll of mass~production,instead of The design.
In 2005，Ws10a worked well during labs and Thus passed The design~finalizing tests（ws10a continuously worked successfully for xx days in labs）.

However,once mass~production started ,many accidents/failures happened（once,some components were spraied out of The engine）,mainly due to The quality controll.
After 2011 or So, ws10a quality controll was improved, and became 'acceptable'.


3. It is not occasional that engines working well in labs were rejected After mass~production.
During 1975-1979,F100（f15's engine）was also once rejected by Usaaf due to frequent failures,although f100 had passed all kinds of tests in labs.
F15's engine became 'acceptable' Until 1980s.

[Yagnasri]

Funny no mention of crash details.

[Liu]

After 2015（ws10a became mature and ws10b started powering j10c）,china seems to be Only interested on russia lastest engines for j20 .


The deal of su35 perfectly reflects how china is Only interested on The lastest engine.

If the WS 15 is such a great success because of all the trillions poured in then why is China interested in Russian engines? Russia is 10-15 years behind the west in engine tech. Why do the Chinese boast that they are only 10 years behind the west and yet want the latest Russian engines? Are the Chinese trying to go backwards by 5 years? How can anyone believe what you say when you are not spending much on telling the truth and pretend that everyone else is blind?

Outside China, right or wrong, there is a strong impression that the Chinese government demands that all Chinese follow the propaganda line that they dictate, and so the media are full of sometimes conflicting information where some Chinese blurts out an uncomfortable truth and he is rapidly arrested or shut up. Under the circumstances it makes great sense to disbelieve what the Chinese claim until there is clear evidence that something is working well. If the Chinese reduce conflicting boasts it would be easier to believe Chinese achievements. For a while the world will believe China. Later these boasts only become a source for ROTFL for others

1. For time being, russian engine might be 10-15 year behind usa（i think The gap is wider）,BUT is still ahead of china,because china is 30 years （1 generation gap）behind Usa.

Ws10a and f100（f15's engine）are in The same league,technically and by thrust.
F100 became 'acceptable' in1980s while ws10a bacame 'acceptable' in 2011 or so. It is a benchmark.

2. Ws15 is in The same league of f119（f22'engine）,technically and by size/thrust.It is still being developed in labs.

Technically,Ej200（ef2000's engine） is quite close to f119,BUT is inferior by size/thrust. As an whole ej200 is still The second most advanced finished engine Only behind f119.

Russia's engine in The same league of f119 is stilll being developed in labs,as well as ws15.

The engine powering t50 is just a new mode of al31，and lt can be a backup/interrim engine for t50 for time being,BUT It has No potential of further upgrade,as well as ws10b（ws10b is aslo interim alternative of j20）

3. In2005,The core of ws15, cj2000,was finished .
In 2006,ws15 was launched .
In 2011, its first prototpye was finished .
In 2020，ws20 is planned to be disign~finalized.

4. The total investment of ws15 might be over 18 billion usd（100 billion rmb）.
China also have many other parallel engine programms,such as ws10b（for upgrade j11/16/15/10 and insurance of ws15） ,ws20（for y20）,ws13（for jf17）,ws18（copy of russia d30,The issurance of0ws20）and So on.
Thus,It is quite safe that chinese total investment on engine is more than india's yearly defence expenditure（30-40billion usd）

5.
For time being,Uk,russia,france and usa are all ahead of china ,as for engine tech.but case is changing rapidly.


UK and france has given up developing The engine in The same league of f119（f22's engine）.their best engine ej200 is mid~thrust one, inferior much to f119 by thrust.s

So,uk and france have quit The race.

Russia crappy economy can not sustain longterm heavy investment alone ,either.so russia might be left out of The race too.

I do think in 10 years ,There would be Only 2 real racers （Usa and china） on The race of engine ,because only The two coutries can afford The lastest engine~r&d,The most luxery game of money.

[svinayak]

Today talked to a GE VP
He said GE had a JV in China in 2009. This was during the financial crisis and GE wanted the money.

Along with the JV plant nearby the Chinese govt setup a similar plant next door

the JV could not progress much but the Chinese govt plant could expand.

So the Chinese could manage to get their hands to few critical tech on engine Tech

[chola]

The Chinese have that pride, but pride has been beaten out of Indians and Indians are taught to consider everyone else better, and objecting to that is bashed down as an example of false pride.

Bull manure. Liu is one of the two or three same 50-centers we had for years and years. Why not just ban him and his propaganda? They don't even grace us with new blood!

I come from Wall Street and the approach that Americans take to both allies and rivals is that it studies and prospers from both. The same with Japan and Korea. This is why American cars and aircraft can make China their largest overseas market while building a cordon of containment bases around them from Japan to Australia.

Your worrying about "boasts" and "propaganda" (and "bluffs" and "psy-ops") doesn't do anything in the real world. It neither allows you to actually understand nor affect real world actions when all you care about is "psychology."

Shivji and Mr. Rao saar, the world still operates on money and kinetic power, not your worries about "claims" and "boasts." In fact, it is you who "claim" they have "boasted." How do you prove they have boasted? I know that you cannot even find a link that the PRC had stated in 2005 that they have world class in engine. I know because I've been using their lack of engines to bash them for more than a decade and they couldn't even produce a People's Daily propaganda article to contradict me! That is until the tide turned a couple years back when they began flooding the forums with hundreds of pictures of the ws-10s on J-11Bs and other flanker knockoffs.

Just ban the last few chinks on BR and have a real honest discussion because it is obvious you can't because you feel it is your job to continuously guard against the last pathetic handful who can even get through their chini firewall to reach us here.

[TKiran]

The Chinese have that pride, but pride has been beaten out of Indians and Indians are taught to consider everyone else better, and objecting to that is bashed down as an example of false pride.

I come from Wall Street and the approach that Americans take to both allies and rivals is that it studies and prospers from both. The same with Japan and Korea. This is why American cars and aircraft can make China their largest overseas market while building a cordon of containment bases around them from Japan to Australia.

Chola sir, sorry for being 'kebab me haddy', but lekin, when Jeep launched 'Jeep Cherokee' last year and was selling like hot cakes, GAC wanted to take over Chrysler and made hostile bid. Wallstreeters it seems don't understand anything beyond numbers. Jeep in fact stalled the launch of 'Jeep Grand Cherokee' just to avoid stake increase of GAC in the joint venture.

[chola]

Chola sir, sorry for being 'kebab me haddy', but lekin, when Jeep launched 'Jeep Cherokee' last year and was selling like hot cakes, GAC wanted to take over Chrysler and made hostile bid. Wallstreeters it seems don't understand anything beyond numbers. Jeep in fact stalled the launch of 'Jeep Grand Cherokee' just to avoid stake increase of GAC in the joint venture.

Numbers are just a measure of what Wall Street understands! If you understand nothing you will not get good numbers. It is as simple as that.

Rumours and psychology can move a market in the short term but real worth and real appliable knowledge always win the long term. The Street is littered with the bones of flash-in-the-pans and rumor-firms. Bad firms based on talk and no substance are literally shorted to death. So your numbers better be good and they better be real. With no real understanding of your industry and your market your real numbers will not be good.

I have no idea what point you are trying to say with the Jeep example. Chiniland is Jeep's largest market outside the US which is why GAC wanted more.

BTW, there are many, many desis here on the Street. Far more than the chinis and chini-americans. But the most powerful growth story here (and has been for a decade now) is China. We WANT it to be Bharat. Modi had given us a boost but the sales numbers are still so lopsided in China's favor that the lizard remains the main source of growth.

But what I want is a practical and dispassionate (as Shivji said) discussion on china that takes place on Wall Street, Tokyo and Seoul where we can measure the chinis correctly and use that knowledge to our advantage.

[shiv]

I come from Wall Street and the approach that Americans take to both allies and rivals is that it studies and prospers from both. The same with Japan and Korea. This is why American cars and aircraft can make China their largest overseas market while building a cordon of containment bases around them from Japan to Australia.

Your worrying about "boasts" and "propaganda" (and "bluffs" and "psy-ops") doesn't do anything in the real world. It neither allows you to actually understand nor affect real world actions when all you care about is "psychology."

Shivji and Mr. Rao saar, the world still operates on money and kinetic power, not your worries about "claims" and "boasts." In fact, it is you who "claim" they have "boasted." How do you prove they have boasted? I know that you cannot even find a link that the PRC had stated in 2005 that they have world class in engine. I know because I've been using their lack of engines to bash them for more than a decade and they couldn't even produce a People's Daily propaganda article to contradict me! That is until the tide turned a couple years back when they began flooding the forums with hundreds of pictures of the ws-10s on J-11Bs and other flanker knockoffs.

Just ban the last few chinks on BR and have a real honest discussion because it is obvious you can't because you feel it is your job to continuously guard against the last pathetic handful who can even get through their chini firewall to reach us here.

Wall street? Is that a construction company? It's not an jet engine company to my knowledge.

Your opinions are perfectly OK, especially when they come without the pathetic wails about India.. Of course I continue to disagree with you and I am not going to argue with you. You have your views and I have mine. You are entitled to think that only your views are important - I don't object to that as long as you don't whine on here and ask "Where else can I whine?" I don't actually have to prove anything to anyone here. i simply ask questions and state my views.