Bharat Rakshak

shiv wrote: Why should we tear down Hindu epics and itihaas and smritis as "Hindu religious dogma that must be rationally analysed". Are we not simply doing a blind aping of what Europeans did to Christianity and the bible? Are we mad?or are we simply mental slaves? I say we are mentally enslaved and are unable to differentiate our own past from the European Christian past. We treat our Hindu past as if it was an imposed lie the way Christianity was imposed in Europe.

nachiket wrote:

matrimc wrote:Nachiket: gNEshA's elephant head is but an exaggeration of sceintific knowledge avaialble and possible at the time the story was added to the shiva purANa.

But brahmastra is same as nuclear weapon is not even plausible due to two objections - firstly the time frames that are being talked about are such that, if one believes in evolution, they are completely fabricated. Of course, one has to believe in evolution (which I personally do - so just that objction is good enough) and the other objection is that mathematics, physics (theory and practice) are so intricate that lot more understanding about a very wide array of sciences needs to be mastered before anything like that is even possible.

Those two afre not in the same league.

With respect, it is far more than a mere exaggeration. Even if surgical techniques back then were many times more advanced than what we have today, replacing a human's head with that of an animal would be firmly in the realm of fantasy.

As for the Brahmastra==Nuclear weapon part, I'm not disagreeing with you.

As an aside, for a Christian to believe in evolution, would mean he has to necessarily disbelieve everything Christianity stands for because the concept of "original sin" is rendered meaningless by evolution. So a true Christian has to oppose evolution (which is a scientific fact) at all costs. People who say they believe in both are deluding themselves.

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Re: Trying to retrofit modern science into religious texts is a losing endevour, for any religion & The Christians and Muslims do it all the time to explain the unbelievable stuff in their texts.

---- The Christians and Muslims have nothing if their texts are false. As far as I know, there is no mandate for a Hindu to believe in the literal truth of the "texts". The ananth/sesha-naag that Vishnu sleeps on can be taken figuratively as infinity (ananth) or more than the phenomenal world (sesha) or can be taken literally or with yet other meanings -- as a person progresses in understanding, the meaning to the person changes, the text is not invalidated. There are layers upon layers of meaning and symbolism. In Himal magazine or some such that I read a decade ago, and which to my regret I did not save, a devotee wrote of his meditations on Ganapati, and how the form ultimately made sense in a moment of deep meditative insight. All this is trashed by the insistence on making these literal, historical texts judged by historical truth with ahistorical accretions that don't make scientific sense.

Live by the book, die by the book. Christianity and Islam will eventually wither away under the glare of science and with their ideas of an irascible and petulant God in Heaven. Or else, like with the blasphemy law in Pakistan (or even just the unchallengable Christian myth that I encountered with Sonia Faleiro) they will have to keep something unchallenged and unchallengeable. The Hindu is under no such constraint, unless the misguided movement to historicize and translate into science proceeds further.

A_Gupta wrote:Enough of nonsense.

As Adi Sankara said, a thousand pronouncements of the Shruti cannot render fire cold. To that I would add even ten thousand pronouncements of the Itihaas cannot render Brahmastra into a nuclear weapon.

Elements that can undergo fission in a chain reaction are the same today as they were in the indefinite past. How these occur in nature and what needs to be done to what is found in nature to make nuclear weapons is a constant. "Nuclear weapon" sets a bar of evidence so high that I will confidently say that it will never be crossed. Some metal artifacts should have survived in the archaeological record. Where are they?

And so on.

The one "sure" knowledge the West has produced is (science & mathematics). It is because this is based on nature & reason that anyone can verify for themselves. It is the description of human things (religion, psychology, culture, etc.) that is suspect.

What I won't say is that Brahmastra, etc., are fiction. Fiction means something like "Harry Potter". The Brahmastra, etc., are part of a philosophy of about what the world is constituted of; and whether a philosophy turns out to be valid or not, it is not called fiction. Nor is it called mythology.

Similarly, this "lakhs of years ago" - genetics tells us that Indian populations are derived from peoples that arrived 50-60,000 years ago; so whatever it is, we are not descendants of those people who lakhs of years ago supposedly had nuclear weapons.

Agnimitra wrote: I am Sanskrit

If I am dead, do I want a rebirth? If I am a ghostly shadow, do I want to become visible again? I am not sure. I would feel so out of place in this India. William Jones said I am a language of precision. What will I do in a culture that has lost the art of fine distinctions? I am the language of logic and form. What will I do in a culture where public argument is nothing but the flouting of logic? I am a language where the purpose of language is language itself. What will I do in a culture where everything is instrumental? I am the language of refined eroticism. What will I do in a culture where my supporters would unleash the tides of repression? I am the classic language of double meanings. What will I do in a culture where people cannot even hold one meaning in their head? I am the language of the classic pun. What will I do in a culture that is humourless? I am the language of itihasa. What will I do in a culture where all history is merely politics by other means? I am the language of refined aestheticism. What will I do in a culture where aesthetics is confined to museums or kitsch? The meaning of my name, they say, is perfection. What will I do in a culture where excellence is seen as an instrument of domination? I am the language of the gods. What will I do in a world where gods have been banished by godmen? I am the language of liberation, the gateway to being itself. What will I do in a culture that seeks bondage and refuses self-knowledge? Jaroslav Pelikan once wrote, “Tradition is the living thought of the dead, traditionalism is the dead thought of the living.” Now that I am caught between -isms, I doubt myself. I have become more a reflection of the dead thought of the living than the living thought of the dead.

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ Re: Trying to retrofit modern science into religious texts is a losing endevour, for any religion & The Christians and Muslims do it all the time to explain the unbelievable stuff in their texts.

---- The Christians and Muslims have nothing if their texts are false. As far as I know, there is no mandate for a Hindu to believe in the literal truth of the "texts". The ananth/sesha-naag that Vishnu sleeps on can be taken figuratively as infinity (ananth) or more than the phenomenal world (sesha) or can be taken literally or with yet other meanings -- as a person progresses in understanding, the meaning to the person changes, the text is not invalidated. There are layers upon layers of meaning and symbolism. In Himal magazine or some such that I read a decade ago, and which to my regret I did not save, a devotee wrote of his meditations on Ganapati, and how the form ultimately made sense in a moment of deep meditative insight. All this is trashed by the insistence on making these literal, historical texts judged by historical truth with ahistorical accretions that don't make scientific sense.

Live by the book, die by the book. Christianity and Islam will eventually wither away under the glare of science and with their ideas of an irascible and petulant God in Heaven. Or else, like with the blasphemy law in Pakistan (or even just the unchallengable Christian myth that I encountered with Sonia Faleiro) they will have to keep something unchallenged and unchallengeable. The Hindu is under no such constraint, unless the misguided movement to historicize and translate into science proceeds further.

johneeG wrote: when there is no direct observation or experience, then the proofs are needed.

johneeG wrote: Coming to Hindhuism, one of the main sticking points between Hindhu claims about history and modern science is theory of evolution.

shiv wrote:Let us simply assume that Hindu texts are all unbelievable and false stuff. Not history. True history comes from Europe, from the west.

matrimc wrote:

shiv wrote:Let us simply assume that Hindu texts are all unbelievable and false stuff. Not history. True history comes from Europe, from the west.

shiv ji: This touches on what Nachiket ji is saying as well.

The presumtption/assumption (axiom?) that in "hinduism" there is a requirement to accept everything passed down orally (or written - take your pick) as true is incorrect. If that axiom is questioned and not accepted as one of the ground axioms, then the possibility opens up to rationalize what is plausible and what is not pluasible by applying retroactively what we know now and what we think we know about our ancients.

JE Menon wrote:JohneeG,

That long post about creationism, the idea that "evolution is just a theory" (no doubt slightly unlike the "theory" of gravity) should not be in this thread. If you want to talk about your belief in intelligent design, kindly find the appropriate forum, or some thread on this forum. This is not the one. If you insist on leaving it here, just post a link to it, since the entire bit of nonsense is repeated several times on the web (have seen it in multiple forms in the past). Do it asap. I don't have the time or patience to edit, find the link and so on (I could not even find it in your post to be honest). I will just delete if it is still here the next time I visit this useful thread.

Please do not clutter this thread with stuff like this. You either underestimate the intelligence and knowledge of people on this forum, or need to do some serious reading on the subject. That stuff you posted up there is not science, it is politics - specifically an unsavoury slice of the American discourse on science, creationism, intelligent design, etc. It is not for this thread. This thread, as the initiator titled it, is about why "Hindu nationalism" is spoken of in a pejorative sense.

Added later: I see that others have weighed in by the time I wrote the above. So, once again, kindly delete and provide link alone (if you insist).

johneeG wrote:

devesh wrote: Sri Rama is supposed to have been born in the 26th Mahayuga of the Vaivaswata Manvantara.

we are** in the 28th Mahayuga. Krishna and the Krishna-Dwaipayana Vyasa both belong to the current - 28th - Mahayuga.

**as per Bhagavatham.

Yep, Sri Rama was born in this Manvantara but different Mahayuga.

1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita(17,28,000) + 1 Treta(12,96,000) + 1 Dwapara(8,64,000) + 1 Kali(4,32,000) = 43,20,000 years.

Dwapara = 2*Kali; Treta = 3*Kali; Krita = 4*Kali;

1 Mahayuga = 1 Krita + 1 Treta + 1 Dwapara + 1 Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 1*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10*Kali;
=> 1 Mahayuga = 10 * (4,32,000) = 43,20,000 yrs;

1 Manvantara = 71 Mahayugas.(There are also Sandhi periods).

1 Kalpa = 14 Manvantaras.

Every Manvantara has a Manu, Indra and a set of Saptarishis. Or in other words the positions of Manu, Indra and Saptarishis have a term(allocated time period) of 1 Manvantara. So, a single Kalpa has 14 Manus(& 14 sets of Saptarishis).

The list of 14 Manus are:
01)Svayambhuva Manu(The Dhruva/polestar episode happened in this Manvantara. Dhruva was a descendent of this Manu).
02)Svarocisha Manu
03)Uttama Manu
04)Tamasa Manu
05)Raivata Manu
06)Cakshusha Manu
07)Vaivasvata Manu (current Manu and Manvantara)
08)Savarni Manu
09)Daksha-savarni Manu
10)Brahma-savarni Manu
11)Dharma-savarni Manu
12)Rudra-savarni Manu
13)Deva-savarni Manu
14)Indra-savarni Manu
Wiki Link

1 Kalpa forms a daytime of Lord Brahma. There is an equivalent night time for Lord Brahma when there is no creation. He rests at this time. So 24 hr period of Lord Brahma is equal to 2 Kalpas.

1 Single Day of Lord Brahma = 2 Kalpas.
360 such days = 1 year for Lord Brahma.
Total lifetime of Lord Brahma is 100 such years.

A Vishnu day is equivalent to the whole life span of Brahma. The whole life span of Vishnu is equivalent to a day of 'Rudra'. The whole life span of Rudra is equivalent to a day of lord Shiva. In the whole life of lord Shiva five lakh and four thousand numbers of Rudras come and go.
A Shiva's day commences with the creation and before the end of the night the whole creation gets annihilated. Sadashiva is eternal.(According to Shiva Mahapuranam.Link ).

Presently, we live in 1st Kalpa(1st day) of 51st year of Lord Brahma(50 yrs of Lord Brahma are completed and 51st is running). The name of this Kalpa is Shwetavaraha(White Boar) Kalpa. The name comes from Varaha avatara(of Lord Vishnu) which appeared at the starting of this Kalpa. Lord Varaha slew Hiranya-aksha(uncle of Prahladdha) and saved Bhumata(Earth). Then, He settled down at Tirupati. Later(in the present Kali Yuga), Lord Venkateshwara leased Tirupati from Lord Varaha for a period of 1 Kali Yuga(present Kali Yuga).

Presently, we live in 7th Manvantara(6 Manvantaras are completed and 7th is running). The present Manu is Vaivasvata Manu(son of Vivasvan/sun->Kasyapa->Marichi->Brahma). Ikshvaku is the son of Vaivasvata Manu. The descendents of Ikshvaku established Surya Vamsha(into which Lord Rama was born) with Ayodhya as the seat. The famous Maandhata, Raghu, and Ambarisha were born in Surya Vamsha. Vaivasvata Manu had another progeny named Ila who married Buddha/Mercury(son of Chandra/Moon). They had a son named Purarava. His descendents established Chandra Vamsha(into which Pandavas and Lord Sri Krishna were born). The famous Bharata, Nahusha, Yayati, Kuru, Puru, Yadu were all born in Chandra Vamsha.

Presently, we live in 28th Mahayuga(27 are completed and 28th is running). We live in Kali Yuga which started in 3102 BCE. Krita, Treta, Dwapara of the present Mahayuga are completed.

Lord Sri Krishna appeared in the Dwapara Yuga of present 28th Mahayuga(i.e approx 5000yrs ago). Lord Sri Rama appeared in Treta Yuga of 24th Mahayuga.

So, the time lapse between Lord Sri Rama's appearance to now would be:
Dwapara Yuga(24th Mahayuga) + Kali Yuga(24th Mahayuga) + entire 25th Mahayuga + entire 26th Mahayuga + entire 27th Mahayuga + Krita Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Treta Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Dwapara Yuga(28th Mahayuga) + Present Kali Yuga(so far i.e. 3102BCE+2012CE=5112yrs);
=> 2*Kali + Kali + 10*Kali + 10*Kali + 10*Kali + 4*Kali + 3*Kali + 2*Kali + 5112;
=> 42*Kali + 5112;
=> 42*(4,32,000) + 5112;
=> 1,81,44,000 + 5112;
=> 1,81,49,112 yrs;

A minor Pralaya (annihilation/destruction) happens at the end of every yuga. The pralaya which happened around 3102 was Mahabharata War and dessication of river Saraswati. At the end of a Chaturyuga/Mahayuga (4 yuga cycle), there is a bigger pralaya. At the end of Kalpa, the creation ceases.

Each Mahayuga has its own Vyasa figure. Vyasa means editor/compiler. The job of Vyasa is to compile or edit the Vedas and Puranas so that they are intelligible and accessible to people of later Yugas(particularly Kali Yuga). Krishna Dwaipayana(son of Satyavati) is the Vyasa figure of the present Mahayuga. Other people have occupied that position before. For example, Krishna Dwaipayana's father Parashara was Vyasa figure for a certain Mahayuga. And Valmiki(who authored Srimadh Ramayana) was also a Vyasa figure for a certain Mahayuga.

- According to Vishnu Puranam(by Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma) and other sources.

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Pentiah garu, Edited it.

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EDIT: Earlier I wrote Sri Rama was born in 26th Mahayuga(from memory). But, it seems, I was wrong. It is not 26th Mahayuga, but 24th Mahayuga. Accordingly, I am changing the calculations. Link

johneeG wrote:

RajeshA wrote: Or Kali Yuga may already be over, depending on how one interprets the Yuga Cycle Calendar!

The Daivik Kali Yuga is long (432,000 years) but the Manavik Kali Yuga may be much shorter (1200 years, 3,000 years depending on the model).

Saar ji,
after Kali Yuga, Krita Yuga will come(not Dwapara). Conditions in Krita Yuga have been given in MB. I have posted them in one of the previous posts in this thread. You can check whether those conditions are satisfied or not.

In fact, all the conditions given for Kali are well satisfied.

Also, you are wrong saar. Daivik is shorter(12000), while the human one is longer (432000). In fact, the concept here is of relativity of time (and time dilation). The rate of time for Devas is slower than that of human beings. Similarly, rate of time in heavenly planes is slower than that of lower planes. So, the same time period is equal to 12000yrs for Devas, while it is equal to 432000 yrs for humans. The rate of time is based on velocity according to modern science. While, in Hinduism, rate of time is an inherent quality of a plane(and different planes having different rates of time). So, a single day for Brahma is equal to 4.32 billion yrs(432 crore yrs). To Brahma, it seems like a normal time(within a single day). But, to human beings, it is an exceptionally long time. What happens if a human being were to travel to Brahma Loka and spend some time there? Then, such a human being's aging process will also slow down(due to the affect of Brahma Loka). They would not know the difference, it would feel normal to them.

There is a incident on this:
Quote:
Revati was the only daughter of King Kakudmi (sometimes called Kakudmin, or Raivata), a powerful monarch who ruled Kusasthali, a prosperous and advanced kingdom under the sea, and who also controlled large tracts of land, including Anarta kingdom. Feeling that no human could prove to be good enough to marry his lovely and talented daughter, King Kakudmi took Revati with him to Brahma-loka (the plane of existence where Lord Brahma, the Creator, resides) to ask Lord Brahma's advice about finding a suitable husband for Revati.

When they arrived, Lord Brahma was listening to a musical performance by the Gandharvas, so they waited patiently until the performance was finished. Then, Kakudmi bowed humbly, made his request and presented his shortlist of candidates. Lord Brahma laughed loudly, and explained that time runs differently on different planes of existence, and that during the short time they had waited in Brahma-loka to see him, 27 chatur-yugas (a chatur-yuga is a cycle of four yugas, or Ages of Man, hence 27 chatur-yugas total 108 yugas) had passed on Earth (see time dilation theory). Also see the astronomical explanation. Lord Brahma said to Kakudmi, "O King, all those whom you may have decided within the core of your heart to accept as your son-in-law have passed away in the course of time. Twenty-seven chatur-yugas have already passed. Those upon whom you may have already decided are now gone, and so are their sons, grandsons and other descendants. You cannot even hear about their names."abhiyātaḥ — have passed; tri — three; nava — nine; chatur-yuga — four yugas; vikalpitaḥ — thus measured. [1] 'for many successions of ages have died whilst you were listening to our songsters: now upon earth the twenty-eighth great age of the present Manu is nearly finished, and the Kali period is at hand.' You must therefore bestow this virgin gem (i.e. Revati) upon some other husband, for you are now alone, and your friends, your ministers, servants, wives, kinsmen, armies, and treasures, have long since been swept away by the hand of time."[2]

King Kakudmi was overcome with astonishment and alarm at this news.[2] However, Lord Brahma comforted him, and added that Lord Vishnu, the Preserver, was currently incarnate on Earth in the forms of Krishna and Balarama, and he recommended Balarama as a worthy husband for Revati.

Kakudmi and Revati then returned to earth, which they regarded as having left only just a short while ago. They were shocked by the changes that had taken place. Not only had the landscape and environment changed, but over the intervening 27 chatur-yugas, in the cycles of human spiritual and cultural evolution, mankind was at a lower level of development than in their own time (see Ages of Man). The Bhagavata Purana describes that they found the race of men had become "dwindled in stature, reduced in vigour, and enfeebled in intellect."

Marriage to Balarama

Daughter and father found Balarama and proposed the marriage. Because she was from an earlier yuga, Revati was far taller and larger than her husband-to-be, but Balarama, "beholding the damsel of excessively lofty height," tapped his plough (his characteristic weapon) on her head and she shrunk to the normal height of people in that yugas. The marriage was then duly celebrated.

Revati bore her husband two sons, Nisatha and Ulmuka. Both her sons Nisatha and Ulmuka were killed in the Yadu fratricidal war, after which Balarama also ended his earthly incarnation in meditation by the sea.[3] At his funeral ceremony, Revati ascended onto his funeral pyre and was immolated with him.



You are uncomfortable with the long timelines given by traditional Yugas(because they are incompatible with modern science). So, you want to take up the Yukteshwar model. Fine. In fact, it seems even Yukteshwar was trying to fit Yugas into science of his time.

But, frankly, Indian time periods are incompatible with modern science. Simple. Lets say we accept Yukteshwar model that means 12000 years is equal to one Mahayuga(Krita+Treta+Dwapara+Kali). 12000 years seems like a reasonable time period which would be acceptable to the modern science. But, there is a glitch. Indian history does not start with this Mahayuga. No. The Indian history(particularly Hindu history) starts from this Manvantara.

Please see the following post:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1339211#p1339211

Sri Rama was born in 24th Mahayuga's Treta Yuga. We currently live in 28th Mahayuga's Kali Yuga. So how much time elapsed between Rama and us, if we take one Mahayuga to be 12000 yrs? 51, 312 yrs. How much time elapsed from Ikshvaku(start of manvantara)? 3,39,012 yrs. Are these figures acceptable to modern science? No. So, even if the Yuga periods are shortened, the modern science is incompatible with the Indian one.

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A good source of time and its divisions: Harivamsam Ch 8

Hari Vamsam is considered a sequel of MB.

Genesis 1 wrote:The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

SECTION 188
(VANA PARVA)
"Markandeya continued, 'The Deity then said, 'O Brahmana, the Gods even don’t know me truly! As however, I have been gratified with you, I will tell you how I created the universe! O regenerate Rushi, you are devoted to your ancestors and has also sought my protection! You have also saw me with your eyes, and your ascetic merit also is great! In ancient times I called the waters by the name of Nara; and since the waters have ever been my ayana or home, therefore I have been called Narayana (the water-homed). O best of regenerate ones, I am Narayana, the Source of all things, the Eternal, the Unchangeable. I am the Creator of all things, and the Destroyer also of all. I am Vishnu, I am Brahma and I am Shakra (Indhra), the chief of the Gods. I am King Vaishravana (Kubera), and I am Yama, the lord of the deceased spirits. I am Shiva, I am Soma, and I am Kashyapa the lord of the created things. And, O best of regenerate ones, I am he called Dhatri, and he also that is called Vidhatri, and I am Yagna (Sacrifice) embodied. Fire is my mouth, the earth my feet, and the Sun and the Moon are my eyes; the Heaven is the crown of my head, the firmament and the cardinal points are my ears; the waters are born of my sweat. Space with the cardinal points are my body, and the Air is my mind. I have performed many hundreds of Yagnas (Sacrifices) with gifts in profusion. I am always present in the Yagnas (Sacrifices) of the Gods; and those who are cognisant of the Vedhas and officiate therein, make their offerings to me. On earth the Kshatriya chiefs that rule over men, in performing their Yagnas (Sacrifices) from desire of obtaining heaven, and the Vaisyas also in performing theirs from desire of winning those happy regions, all worship me at such times and by those ceremonials. It is I who, assuming the form of Sesha support (on my head) this earth bounded by the four seas and decked by Meru and Mandhara. And O regenerate one, it is I who, assuming the form of a boar, had raised in days of yore this earth sunk in water. And, O best of Brahmanas, it is I who, becoming the fire that issues out of the Equine mouth, drink up the waters (of the ocean) and create them again. Due to my energy from my mouth, my arms, my thighs, and my feet gradually sprang Brahmanas and Kshatriyas and Vaisyas and Shudhras. It is from me that the Rik, the Sama, the Yajus, and the Atharvan Vedhas spring, and it is in me that they all enter when the time comes. Brahmanas devoted to asceticism, those who value Peace as the highest attribute, those who have their souls under complete control, those who are desirous of knowledge, those who are freed from lust and wrath and envy, those who are unwedded to things of the earth, those who have their sins completely washed away, those who are possessed of gentleness and dharma(virtue), and are divested of pride, those who have a full knowledge of the Soul (Self), all worship me with profound meditation. I am the flame known as Samvartaka, I am the Wind called by that name, I am the Sun wearing that appellation, and I am the fire that has that designation. And, O best of Brahmanas, those things that are seen in the firmament as stars, know them to be the pores of my skin. The ocean--those mines of gems and the four cardinal points, know, O Brahmana, are my robes, my bed, and my home. have they been distributed by me for serving the purposes of the Gods. And, O best of men, know also that lust, wrath, joy, fear, and the over-clouding of the intellect, are all different forms of myself. And, O Brahmana, whatever is obtained by men by the practice of truth, charity, ascetic austerities, and peace and harmlessness towards all creatures, and such other handsome deeds, is obtained because of my arrangements. Governed by my ordinance, men wander within my body, their senses overwhelmed by me. They move not according to their will but as they are moved by me. Regenerate Brahmanas that have thoroughly studied the Vedhas, that have tranquillity in their souls, those who have subdued their wrath, obtain a high reward by means of their numerous Yagnas (Sacrifices). That reward, however, is unattainable by men that are wicked in their deeds, overwhelmed by covetousness, mean and disreputable with souls unblessed and impure. Therefore, must you know, O Brahmana that this reward which is obtained by persons having their souls under control and which is unobtainable by the ignorant and the foolish, this which is attainable by asceticism alone, is productive of high merit. And, O best of men, at those times when dharma(virtue) and morality decrease and sin and immorality increase, I create myself in new forms. And, O Muni, when fierce and malicious Daityas and Raakshasas that are incapable of being slain by even the foremost of the Gods, are born on earth, I then take my birth in the families of virtuous men, and assuming human body restore tranquillity by exterminating all evils. Moved by my own maya, I create Gods and men, and Gandharvas and Raakshasas, and all immobile things and then destroy them all myself (when the time comes). For the preservation of rectitude and morality I assume a human form, and when the season for action comes, I again assume forms that are inconceivable. In the Krutha age I become white, in the Thretha age I become yellow, in the Dhwapara I have become red and in the Khali age I become dark in hue, I the Khali age, the proportion of immorality becomes three-fourths, (a fourth only being that of morality). And when the end of the Yuga comes, assuming the fierce form of Death, alone I destroy all the three worlds with their mobile and immobile existences. With three steps, I cover the whole Universe; I am the Soul (Self) of the universe; I am the source of all happiness; I am the humbler of all pride; I am omnipresent; I am infinite; I am the Lord of the senses; and my prowess is great. O Brahmana, alone do I set a-going the wheel of Time; I am formless; I am the Destroyer of all creatures; and I am the cause of all efforts of all my creatures. O best of Munis, my Soul (Self) completely pervades all my creatures, but, O foremost of all regenerate ones, no one knows me. It is me that the pious and the devoted worship in all the worlds. O regenerate one, whatever of pain you have felt within my stomach, know, O sinless one, that all that is for your happiness and good fortune. And whatever of mobile and immobile objects you have seen in the world, everything has been ordained by my Soul (Self) which is the Spring of all existence. The grandsire of all creatures is half my body; I am called Narayana, and I am bearer of the conch-shell, the discus and the mace. O regenerate Rushi, for a period measured by a thousand times the length of the Yugas, I who am the Universal Soul (Self) sleep overwhelming all creatures in insensibility. And, O best of regenerate Rushis, I stay here thus for all time, in the form of a boy though I am old, until Brahma wakes up. O foremost of Brahmanas, gratified with you, I who am Brahma have repeatedly granted you boons, O you who are worshipped by regenerate Rushis! Beholding one vast expanse of water and seeing that all mobile and immobile creatures have been destroyed, you were afflicted with melancholy. I know this, and it is for this reason that I showed you the universe (within my stomach). And while you were within my body, beholding the entire universe, you were filled with wonder and deprived of your senses. O regenerate Rushi, it is for this reason that you were quickly brought out by me through my mouth. I have (now) told you of that Soul (Self) which is incapable of being comprehended by the Gods and the Asuras. And as long as that great ascetic, the holy Brahma, doesn’t awake, you, O regenerate Rushi, can happily and trustfully dwell here. And when that Grandsire of all creatures awakes up, O best of Brahmanas, then I will alone create all bodily creatures, the firmament, the earth, light, the atmosphere, water, and indeed all else of mobile and immobile creatures (that you may have seen) on the earth!’
'

Genesis 6 wrote: Genesis 6 New International Version (NIV)
Wickedness in the World

6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
Noah and the Flood

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

SECTION 186
(VANA PARVA)
Then Yudhishthira, the son of Paandu, said to the Markandeya, 'now narrate the history of Vaivaswata Manu.’
"Markandeya replied, 'O King, O foremost of men, there was a powerful and great Rushi of the name of Manu. He was the son of Vivaswan and was equal to Brahma in glory. And he far excelled his father and grandfather in strength, in power, in fortune, and also in religious austerities. And that lord of men did severe penance standing on one leg with uplifted hands in the jujube forest called Vishaala. And there he practised the rigid and severe penance with head downwards and with steadfast eyes for ten thousand years. And one day, while he was practising austerities there with wet clothes on and matted hair on head, a fish approaching the banks of the Chirini, addressed him thus, 'Worshipful sir, I am a helpless little fish, I am afraid of the large ones; therefore, O great devotee, please think it worth your while to protect me from them; especially as this fixed custom is well established amongst us that the strong fish always preys upon the weak ones. Therefore, think it fit to save me from being drowned in this sea of terrors! I shall repay you for your assistances.’
On hearing these words from the fish, Vaivaswata Manu was overpowered with pity and he took out the fish from the water with his own hands. And the fish which had a body glistening like the rays of the moon when taken out of the water was put back in an earthen water-vessel. And O King, thus reared, that fish grew up in size and Manu tended it carefully like a child. And after a long while, it became so large in size that there was no room for it in that vessel. And then seeing Manu (one day), it again addressed these words to him, 'Worshipful sir, appoint some better habitation for me.’
And then the adorable Manu, the conqueror of hostile cities, took it out of that vessel and carried it to a large tank and placed it there. And there again the fish grew for many a long year. And O lotus-eyed son of Kunthi and ruler of men, there was no room for the fish to play about even though the tank was two yojanas in length and one yojana in width! And beholding Manu it said again, 'O pious and adorable father, take me to the Ganga, the favourite spouse of the Ocean so that I may live there; or do according to your wish. O sinless one, as I have grown to this great bulk by your favour I shall do your bidding cheerfully.’
Thus asked the upright, continent, and worshipful Manu took the fish to the river Ganga and he put it into the river with his own hands. And O conqueror of your enemies, the fish again grew there for some little time and then beholding Manu, it said again, 'O lord, I am unable to move about in the Ganga on account of my great body, therefore, worshipful sir, please take me quickly to the sea!’
O son of Prutha, Manu then taking it out of the Ganga, carried it to the sea and consigned it there. And despite its great bulk, Manu transported it easily and its touch and smell were also pleasant to him. And when it was thrown into the sea by Manu, it said these words to him with a smile, 'O adorable being, you have protected me with special care, now listen to me as to what you should do in the fulness of time! O fortunate and worshipful sir, the dissolution of all this mobile and immobile world is nigh at hand. The time for the purging of this world is now ripe. Therefore do I now explain what is good for you! The mobile and immobile divisions of the creation, those who have the power of locomotion, and those who have it not, of all these the terrible doom has now approached. You shall build a strong massive ark and have it furnished with a long rope. O great Muni, you must ascend on that with the seven Rushis and take with you all the different seeds which were enumerated by regenerate Brahmanas in days of yore and separately and carefully you must preserve them therein. And O beloved of the Munis, you shall wait for me while there. And I shall appear to you like a horned animal, O ascetic, and thus you shall recognise me! And I shall now depart and you shall act according to my instructions because you can not save yourself from that fearful flood without my assistance.’
Then Manu said to the fish, 'I don’t doubt all that you have said, O great one! In the same way, I shall act!’
And giving instructions to each other, they both went away. And Manu then, O great and powerful King and conqueror of your enemies, procured all the different seeds as directed by the fish, and set sail in an excellent vessel on the surging sea. And then, O earth’s lord (King), he bethought himself of that fish. And the fish too, O conqueror of your enemies and foremost scion of Bharatha's family (lineage), knowing his mind, appeared there with horns on his head. And then, O tigerly-man, beholding in the ocean that horned fish emerging like a rock in the form of which he had been before appraised, he lowered the ropy noose on its head. And fastened by the noose, the fish, O King and conqueror of hostile cities, towed the ark with great force through the salt waters. And it conveyed them in that vessel on the roaring and billow beaten sea. And, O conqueror of your enemies and hostile cities, tossed by the tempest on the great ocean, the vessel reeled about like a drunken harlot. And neither land nor the four cardinal points of the compass, could be distinguished.
And there was water everywhere and the waters covered the heaven and the firmament also. And, O bull of Bharatha's family (lineage), when the world was thus flooded, none but Manu, the seven Rushis and the fish could be seen. And, O King, the fish diligently dragged the boat through the flood for many a long year and then, O descendant of Kuru and ornament of Bharatha's family (lineage), it towed the vessel towards the highest peak of the Himavat. And, O Bharatha, the fish then told those on the vessel to tie it to the peak of the Himavat. And hearing the words of the fish they immediately tied the boat on that peak of the mountain and, O Kunthi’s son and ornament of Bharatha's family (lineage), know that that high peak of the Himavat is still called by the name of Naubandhana (the harbour). Then the fish addressing the associated Rushis told them these words, 'I am Brahma, the Lord of all creatures; there is none greater than myself. Assuming the shape of a fish, I have saved you from this cataclysm. Manu will create (again) all beings--Gods, Asuras and men, all those divisions of creation which have the power of locomotion and which have it not. he will acquire this power by practicing severe austerities and illusion will have no power over him with my blessing.’
"So saying the fish vanished instantly. And Vaivaswata Manu himself became desirous of creating the world. In this work of creation illusion overtook him and therefore, he practised great asceticism. And endowed with ascetic merit, Manu, O ornament of Bharatha's family (lineage), again set about his work of creating all beings in proper and exact order. This story which I have narrated to you and the hearing of which destroys all sin, is celebrated as the Legend of the Fish. And the man who listens every day to this primeval history of Manu, attains happiness and all other objects of desire and goes to heaven.”

SECTION 187
(VANA PARVA)
"Then the virtuous King Yudhishthira in all humility again enquired the illustrious Markandeya, saying, ‘@O great Muni, you have seen many thousands of ages pass away. In this world there is none so longlived as you! O best of those who have attained the knowledge of Supreme Spirit, there is none equal to you in years except the great-minded Brahma living in the most exalted place. O Brahmana, you worship Brahma at the time of the great dissolution of the universe, when this world is without sky and without the Gods or Dhaanavas. And when that cataclysm ceases and the Grandsire awakes, you alone, O regenerate Rushi, see Brahma duly re-create the four orders of beings after having filled the cardinal points with air and consigned the waters to their proper place. You, O great Brahmana, has worshipped in his presence the great Lord and Grandsire of all creatures with Soul (Self) rapt in meditation and entirely swallowed up in Him! And, O Brahmana, you have many a time witnessed with your eyes, the primeval actions of creation, and, plunged in severe ascetic austerities, you have also surpassed the Prajapathis themselves! you are esteemed as one who is nearest to Narayana, in the next world. Many a time in days of yore you saw the Supreme Creator of the universe with eyes of spiritual abstraction and renunciation, having first opened your pure and lotus-like heart--the only place where the multiform Vishnu of universal knowledge may be seen! O learned Rushi, it is for this reason that neither all-destroying Death nor oldage that causes the decay of the body, has any power over you by the grace of God! When neither the sun, nor the moon, nor fire, nor earth, nor air, nor sky remains, when all the world being destroyed looks like one vast ocean, when the Gods, Asuras, and the great Uragas (Large Snakes) are annihilated, and when the great-minded Brahma, the Lord of all creatures, taking his seat on a lotus flower and sleeps there, then you alone remain to worship him! And, O best of Brahman as you have seen all this that occurred before with your own eyes. And you alone has witnessed many things by the senses and never in all the worlds has there been any thing unknown to you! Therefore do I long to hear any discourse explaining the causes of things!”
"Markandeya replied, 'Indeed, I shall explain all after bowing down to that Self-existent, Primordial Being, who is eternal, undeteriorating, inconceivable, and who is at once vested with and divested of attributes. O tigerly-man, this Janardana attired in yellow robes is the grand Mover and Creator of all, the Soul (Self) and Framer of all things, and the lord of all! He is also called the Great, the Incomprehensible, the Wonderful and the Immaculate. He is without beginning and without goal, pervades all the world, is Unchangeable and Undeteriorating. He is the Creator of all, but is himself uncreate and is the Cause of all power. His knowledge is greater than that of all the Gods together. O best of kings and pre-eminent of men, after the dissolution of the universe, all this wonderful creation again comes into life. Four thousand years have been said to constitute the Krutha Yuga. Its dawn also, as well as its eve, has been said to comprise four hundred years. The Thretha-Yuga is said to comprise three thousand years, and its dawn, as well as its eve, is said to comprise three hundred years. The Yuga that comes next is called Dhwapara, and it has been computed to consist of two thousand years. Its dawn, as well as its eve, is said to comprise two hundred years. The next Yuga, called Khali, is said to comprise one thousand years and its dawn, as well as eve, is said to comprise one hundred years. Know, O King, that the duration of the dawn is the same as that of the eve of a Yuga. And after the Khali Yuga is over, the Krutha Yuga comes again. A cycle of the Yugas thus comprised a period of twelve thousand years. A full thousand of such cycles would constitute a day of Brahma. O tigerly-man, when all this universe is withdrawn and ensconced within its home--the Creator himself--that disappearance of all things is called by the learned to be Universal Destruction. O bull of the Bhaaratha family (lineage), towards the end of the last mentioned period of one thousand years, i.e., when the period wanted to complete a cycle is short, men generally become addicted to falsehood in speech.

shiv wrote: How do you prove history?

O'Brien smiled faintly. 'You are no metaphysician, Winston,' he said.
'Until this moment you had never considered what is meant by existence. I
will put it more precisely. Does the past exist concretely, in space? Is
there somewhere or other a place, a world of solid objects, where the past
is still happening?'

'No.'

'Then where does the past exist, if at all?'

'In records. It is written down.'

'In records. And----?'

'In the mind. In human memories.'

'In memory. Very well, then. We, the Party, control all records, and we
control all memories. Then we control the past, do we not?'

johneeG wrote: If present day human beings are superior to the ancient ones, then why would the present day human beings worship the ancient figures? If present day human beings are superior to the ancient ones, then why would the present humans accept any theory forwarded by the ancient ones? Why should the present day human beings respect ancient texts?

... and I have started rethinking my views, particularly since my research has involved infectious diseases for nearly 28 years....

harbans wrote:The problem with RW Hindutva nationalists and Secular types is the former give the impression of being absolutists themselves. This rankles somewhere. Yet while the Seculars have a false sense of security and blind spot at neglecting the grip absolutist Abrahmic excluvism is taking all round, the RW (some) give an impression they will hold the same vicious grip that 'extremists' of the Abrahmic ideology do. This creates a resistance to Dharma exerting or even pervading.

The more i see this contrast, the clearer it becomes the "direction" is important. A Rakshasa (one from a Tamsic background) fighting in Dharmas cause: That is only because for some reason he/she is in the grip of Tamas yet desperately believes in evolving. And the second a very educated and Sattvic habit, very respected person fighting on the side of Adharma (self Sattvic but fighting for an order because of whatever reason beit loyalty, kinship etc) that prevents evolution in general.

The Indians know what they have to learn from Europe and they have been learning it for centuries on end. Europe, by contrast, rests content with descriptions of India as superstitious, corrupt, and underdeveloped. Or with woolly notions about meditation, yoga, karma, vedic astrology

What were the European intellectuals busy with, during the last two thousand years? It is almost impossible to answer this question without describing the history of Europe. Still, we can say they produced theologies, philosophies, fine arts, natural and social sciences … The list is so varied, so diverse and so huge that one does not know where to begin or how to end. Despite this, the fact remains: all interesting theories about human beings, their cultures and societies, which we use today, are products of the European intellectuals. So too are the institutions and practices that most of us find desirable: democratic institutions and courts of law, for instance. The sheer size, variety and the quality of the European contributions to humanity is overwhelming.

What were the Indian thinkers doing during the same period? The standard textbook story, which has schooled multiple generations including mine, goes as follows: caste system dominates India, women are discriminated against, the practice of widow-burning exists, corruption is rampant, most people believe in astrology, karma and reincarnation … If these properties characterize India of today and yesterday, the puzzle about what the earlier generations of Indian thinkers were doing turns into a very painful realization: when the intellectuals of one culture, the European culture, were busy challenging and changing the world, most thinkers from another culture, the Indian in our case, were apparently busy sustaining and defending undesirable and immoral practices. Of course there is our Buddha and our Gandhi but that is apparently all we have: exactly one Buddha and exactly one Gandhi. If this portrayal is true, the Indians have but one task - to modernize India - and the Indian culture but one goal - to become like the West as quickly as possible.

However, what if this portrayal is false? What if these basically European descriptions of India are wrong? In that case, the questions about what India has to offer the world and what the Indian thinkers were doing become important to the Europeans. For the first time, their knowledge of India will be subject to a kind of test that has never occurred before. Why 'for the first time'? The answer is obvious: the knowledge of India was generated primarily when India was colonized. Subsequent to the Indian independence, India suffered from poverty and backwardness. In tomorrow's world, the Indian intellectuals will be able to speak back with a newly found confidence and they will challenge the European descriptions of India. That is, for the first time, they will test the European knowledge of India and not just accept it as God's own truth. Moreover, the results of this test are not of mere scientific interest; they will also have serious social, political and economic repercussions on the European societies. If true, the question becomes: what kind of 'knowledge' about India will be tested?

To the British Christians (and to the Islamic rulers before them), the ‘religion’ of the Hindus could only be false religion. Our devas and devis were false gods and merely different representations of the Devil and his lieutenants. To the Protestants (and to most of the Catholic missionaries), such a false religion could only be understood in terms of the seductive power of the Devil and the machinations of Devil’s ‘priests’, viz., the Brahmins. Such a false religion not only delivered the credulous into the clutches of the Devil and sent them on a one-way ticket to hell, but it also had to be intrinsically immoral. Consequently, any phenomenon they thought they saw in India, whether it was sati or child marriage, had to do with the immorality of ‘Hinduism’

the foundation and the framework of these ‘discoveries’ were not empirical investigations but their theological beliefs. Everything they ‘discovered’ was fitted into this framework. The discovery of the Upanishads and the Buddhist (and the Jain) traditions merely strengthened the framework. Thus, they came up with the three stages of the decay and degeneration of ‘Indian religion': Vedic religion, Brahmanism and Hinduism. The Vedic religion retained the intimations of (the Biblical) God and His original message; Brahmanism was the corruption and decay of this religion in the hands of the Brahmin priests; ‘Hinduism’ is a further degeneration and corruption of the already corrupt religion of Brahmanism. The Buddha fought the ‘Brahmin priests’ and, because of this, in the eyes of the Protestants, ‘Buddhism’ was less ‘corrupt’ than Brahmanism. But ‘Hinduism’ was the most degenerate and corrupt ‘false religion’, which, unfortunately, was embraced by the majority of the gullible in India.

Therefore, all the ills of Indian society and culture were traced back to ‘Hinduism’. They are intrinsic to this religion, the British claimed,

shiv wrote:
On the other hand Hindutva vadis often resort to a tit for tat absolutism as a reaction to the onslaught on what they see as Hindu culture - but in some cases what the Hindutva vadis call "Hindu culture" is also a product of a colonized mind that has previously absorbed Islamic or Christian/Victorian era values. Hindutvadi groups that oppose the socialization of boys and girls, and demand that all women should "cover up for modesty" fall in this group leading to the strange situation where sharia supporting groups and Hindu groups are protesting on the same side. To me it appears that these loud and aggressive Hindutva vadis are totally colonized mentally - at least in this regard.

ShauryaT wrote:
So, instead of a holy or national book, I would rather have in parliament, the troika of Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Durga to represent the three governing deities as symbols under whom knowledge, wealth and power are to be governed by - for they represent and compel those endowed with these three forces to be used to serve Dharma.

shiv wrote:The utter stupidity of branding "Hindu-ism" as just another religion stands out when you consider that totally secular, non religious statements of wisdom take on a religion/communal flavour eg

asato ma sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrirityor ma amritam gamaya

Hindu enlightenment simply blew away all "religious dogma" for those who looked at it.

ShauryaT wrote:So, instead of a holy or national book, I would rather have in parliament, the troika of Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Durga to represent the three governing deities as symbols under whom knowledge, wealth and power are to be governed by - for they represent and compel those endowed with these three forces to be used to serve Dharma.

matrimc wrote: capitals are the long vowels. Just a nit. But let us keep in mind thatg for samskruta pronounciation is everything due to the way it has been transmitted for milleniums.

If one can demonstrate that secularism gave rise to the Hindu right in India, then our understanding of the relation between secularism and fundamentalism may be due for revision. Some evidence is available for such a link. For instance, it has been argued that Hindu nationalism appropriated the colonial liberal state’s views of the Hindu traditions as one unified religion and Indian history as a struggle between Hinduism and Islam. Our question is: what has been the historical relation between the secular state and religious fundamentalism in India?

Arjun wrote: Btw - I noticed in some posts above the use of the term Pitrubhumi. Since when did the more familiar Matrubhumi get replaced by Pitrubhumi ? Am I missing something?

In fact, Ekatmata Stotra (Hymn of Unity) sung in all RSS shakhas as a daily prayer, offers salutations to this entire sacred knowledge tradition extolling it as jnana nidhi, treasures of knowledge.

Four Vedas, Puranas, all the Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Gita, True Philosophies (Darshanas), Jain Agamas, Tripitakas (of Buddhism) and the verses of Guru Granth—we must always revere these treasures of knowledge with devotion, from the core of our heart .

(Verses 8-9, Ekatmata Stotra)

That death of Hinduism in India will be celebrated by all votaries of Hindutva. For they have always been embarrassed and felt humiliated by Hinduism as it is. Hinduism, I repeat, is a faith and a way of life. Hindutva is an ideology for those whose Hinduism has worn off. Hindutva is built on the tenets of re-formed Hinduism of the nineteenth century. Reformed according to the reading of those who saw Hinduism as inferior to the Semitic creeds, in turn seen as well-bounded, monolithic, well-organized, masculine, and capable of sustaining the ideology of an imperial state.

Last Kick

Hindutva at this plane is Western imperialism's last frenzied kick at Hinduism. It is an ideology meant for the super-market of global mass culture where all religions are available in their consumable forms, neatly packaged for the buyers.

Speaking optimistically Hindutva has its geographical limits. It cannot spread easily beyond the boundaries of urban, semi-westernized India. It cannot penetrate southern India where Hinduism is more resilient, where it is more difficult to project on to the Muslim the feared and unacceptable parts of one's own self. Hindutva cannot survive for long even in rural north India where Hinduism is more self-confident and the citizens have not been fully brainwashed by the media to speak only the language of the state. Nor can it survive where the Hindus are willing to be themselves--proudly "backward" superstitious sanatanis rooted firmly in their svadharma and svabhava.

That is why the RSS considers its first task to be moral and physical "improvement" of the Hindus. It does not much like the so-called fallen, compromised Hindus presently available in the back-waters of Mother India. It loves only the Hindus who have been dead for at least one thousand years. If the RSS has its way, it will make every peasant in India wear khaki shorts. For its ideal Indian is the brown- skinned version of the colonial police sergeant, reading the Gita instead of the Bible.

That is why the late Nathuram Godse did not kill the modernist and "pseudo- secular" Jawaharlal Nehru but the 'arch-reactionary', 'anti-national' sanatani -- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. After the murder, Nehru could only say that the killer was insane. The modernist Prime Minister found it too painful to confront the truth that Godse was sane, that he knew who was the real enemy of Hindutva.

To those who live in Hinduism Hindutva is one of those pathologies which periodically afflict a faith or a way of life, Hinduism has, over the centuries, handled many such pathologies; it still retains the capacity to handle one more. After all, has not the Hinduism coped for more than a century with the modern civilization, which Gandhi, used to call satanic? Hinduism, the argument goes, will eat up Hindutva once a sizable section of the semimodernized Hindus gives up as a lost cause the pathetic search for a psychological defense against the encroaching forces of the market the national security state, and the urban-industrial vision and, instead, confront the reality of these forces directly.

ShauryaT wrote:Dated but as relevant. Two Indian thinkers, who IMO, have largely got it right. Ashis Nandy and T.N. Madan. The author is as critical of our westernized elites.
Hinduism Versus Hindutva: The Inevitability Of A Confrontation