Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

[hanumadu]

Is this arihant? From here.

https://twitter.com/BharatKarnad/status ... 7743507456



Looks different from here https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/08/25/10- ... aridhaman/

[nachiket]

The first one is a USN Ohio class submarine - USS Pennsylvania. Karnad should really know better.

[Karan M]

Karnad:

The Aridhaman, moreover, has 8 tubes to launch the K-4 2,500 km SLBMs — twice the number of tubes as the Arihant, and can carry some 24 land-attack K-15 missiles as well. The twin SSBN set will by end-2018 be able to drop a whopping nuclear load on Shanghai and the coast line to the east and west of that metropolis — the main wealth-generating region of China. Not a bad thing for the 2nd Artillery Strategic Forces to keep in mind. Meanwhile, with the second Akula-II SSN — the agreement for its lease from Russia is at the stage of crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s — entering IN service, the Laoning will be well advised to stay well east of the Malacca Strait.

That's a typo or does he mean the Aridhaman has 32 silos?

[nachiket]

Karnad:

The Aridhaman, moreover, has 8 tubes to launch the K-4 2,500 km SLBMs — twice the number of tubes as the Arihant, and can carry some 24 land-attack K-15 missiles as well. The twin SSBN set will by end-2018 be able to drop a whopping nuclear load on Shanghai and the coast line to the east and west of that metropolis — the main wealth-generating region of China. Not a bad thing for the 2nd Artillery Strategic Forces to keep in mind. Meanwhile, with the second Akula-II SSN — the agreement for its lease from Russia is at the stage of crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s — entering IN service, the Laoning will be well advised to stay well east of the Malacca Strait.

That's a typo or does he mean the Aridhaman has 32 silos?

No. He means there are 8 tubes capable of carrying either 8 K-4s or 24 K-15s (3 per tube)

[Karan M]

Ah well..

[Cosmo_R]

The first one is a USN Ohio class submarine - USS Pennsylvania. Karnad should really know better.

Karnad does not know better. Just like Sputnik News, best to ignore.

[Gagan]

Do we know the torpedoes or any LACMs carried by the Arihant or Aridaman. Numbers?

[krishna_krishna]

Chaiwala Alert :

The boat Aridhaman was launched long time back, ready for patrolling duty.

This boat has 8 silos vs. 4 on the arahant with improved 125 mW reactor, with another more improved version almost ready to power SSNs and future bigger goats (G instead of B typed on purpose) with 16 Silos.

The current maal included multiple waar heads, one k5 test done. Watch out for more tests in near future.

All Maya onlee

Added later, Gaganullah noLACM maal onlee K series for Arihant and its brothers.

[Gagan]

No tube launched Klub or other LACMs, are you sure?

[Gagan]

I know that members of a certain forum were trying very very hard to make the Arihant Pics to look like the Aridaman pics, but I remain unconvinced.

[Aditya_V]

Do we know the torpedoes or any LACMs carried by the Arihant or Aridaman. Numbers?

How about Varunastra?

[Gagan]

We don't know anything about the kind of weapons deployed on the Arihant class, other than the K4s and the K15s.

One would have thought klubs, russian torpedos, gradual transition to Indian torpedos. Maybe it can fire the german torpedos used on the U-219s

[Singha]

the Arihant is about the size 6000t of los angeles class submarine.
LA class has room for upto 37 weapon in TT room a mix of ASM, HWT, SLCM and mines.

so one would expect the Arihant too has ability to fire Klub, HWT and release sea mines at the least. 30 weapons for sure.

[Singha]

Do we know the torpedoes or any LACMs carried by the Arihant or Aridaman. Numbers?

How about Varunastra?

varunastra in present form is for surface ships only. they are launched dry from bank of 3 or 4 tubes using compressed air, vs flooding the submarine tube and swimout under own power....i dont know what mods are needed to make it good for submarine use.

[Prasad]

Given we're likely to have Arihant/Aridhaman class, Scorpenes, SSNs and P75I it does make sense to give L&T a chance to become a HAL for the ssn project and become lead designer+integrator with whatever help they need from SBC. Having multiple yards building in parallel gives us a great advantage.

[Singha]

in that case they will have to take over SBC to 'seed' themselves with the right people. just change the signboard outside the hall.

[Karthik S]

Will the next one be same size as Aridhaman or will that be the 10,000T, 16 Silos wala?

[Aditya_V]

In Arihant/ Arindham type SSBN, we probably will have HWT Torpedos and Decoys for Self Defence. These subs are not going to be used for conventional roles like mine laying or attacking land or surface fleet with LACM's. So I expect Arihant to fire only HWT's, Decoys and SLBM's as secondary strike capability. I dont think any cruise missiles or mines are going to bee launched from them.

One wonders what is the max speed of these boats, should be lower than normal SSN's- wiki speculates it to be around 24 knots.

[SSridhar]

10 days to fueling the Aridhaman

Not a bad thing for the 2nd Artillery Strategic Forces to keep hereafter in mind.

In early last year, it became the independent fourth arm of the Services, PLA Rocket Force (PLARF)

[Gagan]

Will the next one be same size as Aridhaman or will that be the 10,000T, 16 Silos wala?

Is there a tearing need for such a big boat?
Is Armageddon part of the plan?

More important to have more medium sized SSGNs and attack boats, and then a few SSBNs.
If you have to keep a chinese flotilla all the way from the Sunda straits to Djibouti, then one needs boats with a certain speed and stamina, not to mention the ability to unleash a huge salvo in one go

[Philip]

There was a report on the torpedo imbroglio,mentioning that the ban on Black Shark impacted upon the ATV prog. becos the same fish were to be used by the Scorpenes and ATVs. Sounds a reasonable assumption.However,given the heavy Ru input,and the Chakra lease,one would assume that the full range of Ru torpedoes/Klubs would also be carried.One hopes that the Shkval is part of the package.no idea as to how many torpedoes are also carried.Whether 18 as on a std. diesel boat or more.If more,then one could expect LRCMs like Nirbhay when perfected,which could be N-tipped.

[Karthik S]

Will the next one be same size as Aridhaman or will that be the 10,000T, 16 Silos wala?

Is there a tearing need for such a big boat?
Is Armageddon part of the plan?

More important to have more medium sized SSGNs and attack boats, and then a few SSBNs.
If you have to keep a chinese flotilla all the way from the Sunda straits to Djibouti, then one needs boats with a certain speed and stamina, not to mention the ability to unleash a huge salvo in one go

We have plans for 6 SSNs for that. What's the point of baby boomers whose only job is to carry SLBMs?
BTW looks like hull fabrication of Aridhaman follow up is going on.

[kit]

Is there a tearing need for such a big boat?
Is Armageddon part of the plan?

More important to have more medium sized SSGNs and attack boats, and then a few SSBNs.
If you have to keep a chinese flotilla all the way from the Sunda straits to Djibouti, then one needs boats with a certain speed and stamina, not to mention the ability to unleash a huge salvo in one go

We have plans for 6 SSNs for that. What's the point of baby boomers whose only job is to carry SLBMs?
BTW looks like hull fabrication of Aridhaman follow up is going on.

why cant some baby boomers be purely cruise missile carriers , the load out will be significant for a massed land attack !

[Singha]

for the sub-nuclear space value addition the subs these days all carry a load of SLCM armed with conventional warheads.

at the low end the LA688I boats which started this trend carry 8.
the virginia class 12 vl tubes and the thawk is tube launched as well (the british SSNs do it from tubes only - even their latest astute class does not feature uvls , neither the french barracuda class)
the yasen carries a load of around 32-40 uvls tubes and packs more in TT room - truly a moving arsenal.
the ohio conversion carts some 150+ missiles !!

think of precision strikes from 1000+ km away on high value economic and military infra from areas which surface fleets and aircraft cannot safely reach. much more doable than flankers flying ER over myanmar and cambodia to plant a kick on cheen's backside.

so if someone has 8 tubes, could be quite a useful hybrid profile to pack in 4 x K4 and 12 x K15 / nirbhay and then cart more klubs and nirbhay in torpedo room also.

obviously a bit symbolic like the doolittle strike v2++ but lets people know we are there.

things will get more interesting when we have nirbhay as a proven SLCM and subs with 16 tubes => 48 such missiles.

[Gagan]

The point is that the two superpowers for nearly 50 years, have lugged around N tipped missiles all over the world on their subs, but not once have needed to use them.
It will be an unfortunate day if N tipped missiles with active warheads are fired from a N sub.

I will say, keep a few boomers around, say 5-6 boats and that's it.
Build and deploy some 10 odd SSNs/SSGNs which will be more value addition, add more to the defence of the nation.

[Karthik S]

No country has SSGN without having dedicated SSBN. Russians have Borey and US has 14 Ohio SSBN, last 4 they converted into SSGN. So let's first complete our Nuke triad with dedicated SSBN and then think about SSGN.

[Singha]

these days every SSN/SSBN is partially a SSGN. UVLS and frequent hybrid war has changed the game. the days of specialized Oscar class are long gone.

the Yasen is every bit a hunter killer as is a SSGN. they are not planning anything small like a barracuda class.

[krishna_krishna]

No tube launched Klub or other LACMs, are you sure?

Gaganullah, what we have done with ariha't is truly amazing a very out of the box and futuristic thinking.It gives us option to load multiple stuff from TT as well as vls tubes that can accommodate one big mizzile or multiple small ones using the plug.

However the strategy envisioned is these special boats under sfc will target current and future enemies from oceans far away from enemy shores. The current priority is to have these in "plural" nos. Commissioned that way we already have mated maal ready to fire when balloons hits up. There is a very big chance of that happening with Munna and it's Abba needking us.this insurance policy has to be always active , enough to take care of all our present enemies with total wipe out.

Now in this there is no place of lacm unless it is n capable,the ones you mentioned even though can be fired are either not n -capable or limited in range. That is why nirbhay is crucial and has big oversight to realize this very fast. Unless that happens currently none of ariha't s or it's brother will have them.

When we have sufficient no. Of submarines all that would happen. Chaiwala says new SSN are tasked to do just that in addition to other roles. But things are moving slowly but steadily in right direction by 2025 we will catch up. Another akula is coming soon as well .

[Gagan]

Krishna Krishna
The name is Gagan
Thx

[Prasad]

SSN for SSN tasks. Expanded Aridhaman class for ssbn role. Arihant-stretch class for ssgn role?

[abhik]

The second indigenous Arihant-class SSBN, INS Aridhaman, is completely outfitted, all inside of 7 years from the time when its keel was laid at the Vizag special projects facility. It took less time to produce than the Ohio-class SSBN rolling out of the General Dynamics Electric Boat facility at Quonset Point, Rhode Island, and Groton, MA, which complex has by now manufactured over a hundred SSBNs and SSNs for the US Navy.

Are/was the Arihant-Aridhaman being built one at a time? Arihant was launched in 2009, over 7 years ago.

[Manish_Sharma]

The point is that the two superpowers for nearly 50 years, have lugged around N tipped missiles all over the world on their subs, but not once have needed to use them.

They were ideological enemies. Ours are fanatical+reptilian.

This is biggest harm Deterrence Thread does to Strategic Thought.

It doesn't allow to work out the "post nuke War Scenario".

Where one country is sent to Pashan Yug (stone age), while other to Kansya Yug (Bronze Age).

From that perspective Arun_S was right we need more ThermoNuclear Tests.

Bigger arsenal.

[Karthik S]

The point is that the two superpowers for nearly 50 years, have lugged around N tipped missiles all over the world on their subs, but not once have needed to use them.

The fact that both superpowers had N tipped missiles all over the world on their subs ensured that they weren't needed once. That's the point of deterrence isn't it.

[sas]

Chaiwala Alert :

The current maal included multiple waar heads, one k5 test done. Watch out for more tests in near future.

Probably K4 based on A3 diameter. Is it MRV or MIRV ? Have we openly tested MIRV during any of the K4 tests ?

On the table we have all the essential maal for MIRV's, but real time testing and validation of the entire MIRV sub system is required.

This publication from DRDO gives a brief description into the development of mid-course guidance for reentry vehicles.

Real time Mid-course Maneuver and Guidance of a Generic reentry Vehicle

Abstract

The aim of any mission is to accomplish the final objective with desired accuracy and the same is valid for a generic launch vehicle. In many missions it is necessary to execute mid-course maneuvers with an intentional diversion trajectory to create a counter measure or to avoid certain specific known geographical locations. The current work elaborates a novel and practically implementable mid-course maneuver and an ascent phase guidance of a reentry vehicle executing an in-flight determined mid-course maneuver (trajectory reshaping) without compromising the accuracy of the final achieved target position. The robustness of the algorithm is validated with 6DoF simulation results by considering the dispersion of the burnout state vector conditions which arises due to variations in thrust profile, aerodynamics characteristics of the vehicle, atmosphere, etc.

http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... /4207/2817

[krishna_krishna]

No tube launched Klub or other LACMs, are you sure?

Gagan, what we have done with ariha't is truly amazing a very out of the box and futuristic thinking.It gives us option to load multiple stuff from TT as well as vls tubes that can accommodate one big mizzile or multiple small ones using the plug.

However the strategy envisioned is these special boats under sfc will target current and future enemies from oceans far away from enemy shores. The current priority is to have these in "plural" nos. Commissioned that way we already have mated maal ready to fire when balloons hits up. There is a very big chance of that happening with Munna and it's Abba needking us.this insurance policy has to be always active , enough to take care of all our present enemies with total wipe out.

Now in this there is no place of lacm unless it is n capable,the ones you mentioned even though can be fired are either not n -capable or limited in range. That is why nirbhay is crucial and has big oversight to realize this very fast. Unless that happens currently none of ariha't s or it's brother will have them.

When we have sufficient no. Of submarines all that would happen. Chaiwala says new SSN are tasked to do just that in addition to other roles. But things are moving slowly but steadily in right direction by 2025 we will catch up. Another akula is coming soon as well .

Krishna Krishna
The name is Gagan
Thx

Appologies for using benis language, post corrected

[Philip]

The Arihant could be considered as an experimental boat (ATV) ,of which the first was reqd. for "proof of concept" purposes. Once we saw that it had succeeded,the elements for the enlarged first batch some components like hulls,etc.,already being built,has seen the programme accelerate as much as poss. Until we possess at least 5-6 SSBNs ,with a collective missile count of around 40+ "pocket ICBMs-China specific).each with MIRVs,we would still be vulnerable to a catastrophic first strike from either of the two mortal enemies. We need to factor in that at least 1/3rd of the land-based/mobile BMs would survive along with at least 75% of the sub-based deterrent. There should be a min. of a couple of hundred missiles and MIRV warheads remaining after any N-attacks against India.This no. should be sufficient to cause unacceptable damage to both China and Pak,which would send both nations into the stone age. It is only possession of a large inventory of N-weapons that will provide us with security and protect us from any misguided N first-strike from the two. Consequently,we should double our N-capabilty to have at least 400-500 missiles by the end of the next decade.

Given the timeframe reqd. and limited scientific and N sub-building resources that we have,where we need asap a min. of 6 SSNs,leasing 2 more Akulas to make the no. increased to 4,would give us the reqd. SSGN capability. These N-subs could also be equipped with N-tipped LRCMs and N-tipped anti-=sub torpedoes/missiles. We would thus have 3 parallel N-sub programmes running.Leasing of Akula SSGNs from Russia-all built there,building of the follow on Arihants at Vizag and the 6+ SSNs perhaps at Katupalli.MDL can continue building subs ,perhaps the follow on P-75I .and/or extra Scorpenes, while at least one pvt. yard is set to build conventional AIP subs too. There are the 6+(?) mini-subs reqd. as well.There was some news in Vayu reg. the sub-rescue vessel that may be ordered from Russia,which can accommodate the two UK rescue submersibles that we've ordered. There's plenty of scope for UUVs,etc. where the pvt. yards can make a contribution.

[prasannasimha]

Hmm Akulas for India were not nuclear tipped howvever much you want to play it out.

[Pratyush]

When is the lease for akula set to expire and what would be the terms of renewal for it. Any one any idea.

[Philip]

The lease is for 10 yrs. with a buyout option after that.The Russians wouldn't want to take them back since they're going to build two separate designs in the future fro SSGN and SSN duties. We would be doing the same thing using the Akula SSGNs for multi-purpose duties including land attack with LRCMs,while the SSNs would hunt for PLAN SSBNs.

[sum]

From SJha:

Anyway, a good piece of news is that @DRDO_India's SSPL lab has managed to develop a blue laser based submarine communication system.