Bharat Rakshak

Losing Rawat & Parikkar is huge loss to strategic security. Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh is too busy doing puja of the Rafale in France. I’m waiting for him to show up in Fort Worth, TX & do puja of the F-35I (India). Maybe send the pujari from the Greater Fort Worth Hindu Temple to help him so the F-35I can be delivered faster.

Mort Walker wrote: ↑28 Feb 2025 02:05 Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh is too busy doing puja of the Rafale in France. I’m waiting for him to show up in Fort Worth, TX & do puja of the F-35I (India).

why so much negative on RM RS?
We are doing pretty decent under his leadership.
Shipbuilding, Missiles, Radars, Ammunition, body gear (armor, rifles, etc)- we are in good shape.
Indigenization has made good progress.
Exports are making decent progress.
UAV/drones - we are behind, but have opened the doors to private startups....we will leapfrog soon.

Few weak spots remain.
Planes - if US had not sabotaged the engine delivery, we had a good order pipeline. We are now starting multiple production (HAL+pvt) lines which is a good corrective step.
F-35I will take a lot of chai biskoot sessions, there will be no rush on our side.
even if actually take - it will be like paying jaziya to a big boss.
we have to pay it, till we become stronger and on par.
lets not despair on these remaining weaknesses.

A Deshmukh wrote: ↑28 Feb 2025 11:44

Mort Walker wrote: ↑28 Feb 2025 02:05 Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh is too busy doing puja of the Rafale in France. I’m waiting for him to show up in Fort Worth, TX & do puja of the F-35I (India).

why so much negative on RM RS?
We are doing pretty decent under his leadership.
Shipbuilding, Missiles, Radars, Ammunition, body gear (armor, rifles, etc)- we are in good shape.
Indigenization has made good progress.
Exports are making decent progress.
UAV/drones - we are behind, but have opened the doors to private startups....we will leapfrog soon.

Few weak spots remain.
Planes - if US had not sabotaged the engine delivery, we had a good order pipeline. We are now starting multiple production (HAL+pvt) lines which is a good corrective step.
F-35I will take a lot of chai biskoot sessions, there will be no rush on our side.
even if actually take - it will be like paying jaziya to a big boss.
we have to pay it, till we become stronger and on par.
lets not despair on these remaining weaknesses.

A Deshmukh ji

It would be very foolish of India to go down that (F-35) path

their intention is to establish and maintain a stranglehold on India's defence capabilities.

the engines were just a small taste of the cordon bleu culinary tasting menu that has been prepared for India by their deep state while making sure that their geopolitical aims reign supreme and their MIC expectations are not in jeopardy.

the stryker was an example of what they can force feed India, even if India does not benefit from the deal or even want that platform because Indians may be making better stuff at home

Few weak spots remain.
Planes - if US had not sabotaged the engine delivery, we had a good order pipeline. We are now starting multiple production (HAL+pvt) lines which is a good corrective step.
F-35I will take a lot of chai biskoot sessions, there will be no rush on our side.
even if actually take - it will be like paying jaziya to a big boss.
we have to pay it, till we become stronger and on par.
lets not despair on these remaining weaknesses.

[/quote]

We will NOT be big and strong if we keep paying through the nose for the white elephants

You guys are reading too much into F35 Vs Su-57 media Circus. Nothing is going to happen. Not even MMRCA is concluded. All these are turning into history while the real story is MK1A, MK2 and AMCA. Rest all is Maya only. Once AMCA flies, F35 becomes F22. Maja aayega.

After rankling Mexico, Canada, Denmark, EU, UK, China... Trump is now impatient to show some success of his trade tariffs policy and what better target than India which is trying to walk on the thin wire.

Our ministers and babus are in the US trying to negotiate an FTA. God knows how that will turn out.

We seem to be throwing some bones to Musk by allowing Tesla and Starlink to set up shop though under what model is not yet known. The risk is that concessions to Musk may set precedent and open the flood gates.

While I'm sure Modi Ji won't be taken for a ride so easily the situation is not easy to navigate. Trump has to only threaten tariffs on IT & BPO services and the already tanking indian stock markets due to FIIs sell offs will get devastated in the short term at least.

Cyrano wrote: ↑12 Mar 2025 13:45 The risk is that concessions to Musk may set precedent and open the flood gates.

May I please politely ask which particular products you feel will flood India. Other than agricultural, I am struggling to understand the risk other than tariffs for the sake of tariffs from the Indian side.

I meant precedent for other countries and EU.
But like you said, agri products from US, high tech medical devices, petroleum products etc.

Some data on indian imports from the US:
https://tradingeconomics.com/india/impo ... ted-states

US Vice President JD Vance (along with Usha Vance) is set to visit India later this month.
After France, this is VP's second foreign trip.

Starlink, is coming to India! (per India's Minister for Railways, Information & Broadcasting, Electronics & Information Technology)

Potential use: remote area railway projects.

Newpaper story:

Airtel and Jio bring Elon Musk’s Starlink for high-speed satellite internet in India: What this means for users

---
Some comments/observations (I may give my take in separate posts)


In India, Starlink (per it's supporters) can be a "game-changer" for items like"

- Providing internet access to remote villages, empowering communities, and promoting economic growth.
-Enabling reliable internet access in mountainous regions, forests, and other hard-to-reach areas.
-Disaster Relief: Offering critical communication infrastructure during emergencies, aiding disaster relief efforts and affected populations.

- Starlink's entry into the Indian market faced regulatory hurdles and opposition from local telecom players, including Reliance Jio and Bharti Airtel .

Starlink has partnered with Airtel to expand satellite internet across rural and underserved regions in India.

- Worth noting that ISRO has been developing its own satellite-based internet solutions. OneWeb, a rival satellite internet provider, has also partnered with ISRO to launch satellites and provide internet services in India .

Starlink is a huge national security risk. The Govt blocked internet after removing Art 370 and prevented "rivers of blood" threatened by anti India forces. If such measures are needed in future GoI will have to justify and beg in front of Musk. Sooner or later Starlink terminals will get into the hands of unwanted elements in our corrupt babudom. There is absolutely no need for this in India.

Amit Shah spoke against this in Parliament last year IIRC. Not sure what pressure has been applied on GoI to allow this.

I am curious: why is Starlink any more of a security risk than any satellite phone that you can buy currently? There is no shortage of money for Abduls with guns - so they can use sat phones no? They are even more compact than Starlink terminals…

AFAIK Sat phones and certain types of GPS locators are banned in India. I remember reading in the press that some foreign trekkers got into trouble at airport for carrying such devices recently.

Yes they are banned of course. My point is Abduls don’t care - they can use a sat phone bought and activated in Kannada. What capability does starlink offer that makes it more of a threat? More data speed is one that I can think of.

Tanaji wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 01:58 Yes they are banned of course. My point is Abduls don’t care - they can use a sat phone bought and activated in Kannada. What capability does starlink offer that makes it more of a threat? More data speed is one that I can think of.

Tanaji saar,


starlink also has a portable version that was smuggled into India and used in manipur for untraceable communications. likewise by drugs, weapons smuggling, and human trafficking not to mention terrorists


what happened once can and will happen again.


There is a huge security risk

If Musk switches off Starlink, Ukraine army will be toast. Because Russia has hacked, jammed, disabled or destroyed all other means of military communications.

It's better to make BSNL install towers or lay fiber in those remote and inaccessible regions irrespective of cost or effort or time than depend on Starlink. And someday build our own equivalent space based comms network. Can't believe we are falling for this trojan horse.

Tanaji wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 01:34 I am curious: why is Starlink any more of a security risk than any satellite phone that you can buy currently? There is no shortage of money for Abduls with guns - so they can use sat phones no? They are even more compact than Starlink terminals…

<zero interest in 'debating/responding to usual trolling / FWIW>

Arguments are: the introduction of Starlink in India and concerns about national security:

- The fear is that the government may lose control over internet shutdowns in sensitive situations, like the one following the removal of Article 370 .

- With Starlink's global reach and potential for foreign surveillance, there are worries that India's sovereignty could be compromised.

- Starlink's close ties with the US military, which could pose a threat to India's national security .

- The company's ability to provide high-speed internet services could also be exploited by anti-Indian forces, undermining the government's authority.

-There are also concerns about the potential for Starlink terminals to fall into the wrong hands.

- India's reliance on a foreign-operated systemk could increase dependence on foreign infrastructure

What India must do (IMO India is seriously taking this into account) - establish robust regulatory policies and ensure that Starlink complies with data privacy and national security norms . This includes implementing encryption algorithms, authentication protocols, and intrusion detection systems to safeguard satellite networks against unauthorized access and data breaches.

---

Few tidbits/ known (or not that publicized) from both US and Indian sources

Modi & Co is taking a cautious approach to Starlink's entry into the market. GoI has cleared the way for Starlink to operate in the country, but with certain conditions .

Experts in the Modi government, like IT Minister Ashwini Vaishnaw, and DST Krandikar (Both very familiar with technical know how) are likely monitoring the situation closely. While there hasn't been an official statement from the minister, the government's decision to allocate satellite broadband spectrum administratively rather than through an auction suggests a willingness to accommodate Starlink's preferences .

For example, Elon Musk clarified that Starlink's satellite beams are turned off over India and were never turned on in the first place . (This statement came after the Indian Army posted photos of recovered items, including a Starlink device).

We will see but IMO. India's approach to Starlink is characterized by caution and a careful balancing of competing interests. I know (confident) that experts in the Modi government will continue to play a crucial role in shaping India's policy towards Starlink.

chetak wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 02:18

Tanaji wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 01:58 Yes they are banned of course. My point is Abduls don’t care - they can use a sat phone bought and activated in Kannada. What capability does starlink offer that makes it more of a threat? More data speed is one that I can think of.

Tanaji saar,


starlink also has a portable version that was smuggled into India and used in manipur for untraceable communications. likewise by drugs, weapons smuggling, and human trafficking not to mention terrorists


what happened once can and will happen again.


There is a huge security risk

As said - the portable version of Starlink poses significant security concerns, as highlighted by the incident in Manipur. (The potential for untraceable communications can be exploited by terrorists/smugglers etc)

Given that , it is essential for the Indian government to reassess the security implications of allowing Starlink to operate in the country. Implementing robust regulations and oversight mechanisms IMO is doable and must happen.

Amber G,
I have but one question.

What is the need for Starlink in India ? Except for pacifying Trump's favourite of the moment?

I'm a fan of Musk on some topics, I have some Tesla stock since years, but I draw the line when it comes to Bharat's interests.

Sat phones and certain types of GPS locators are banned in India.

Satellite phones and certain GPS locators are indeed banned in India, except with specific permission or a no-objection certificate (NOC) from the Department of Telecommunications.

(The ban is rooted in security concerns, particularly after the 2008 Mumbai attacks, where terrorists used satellite phones to coordinate their activities India)

To avoid issues, travelers to India should ensure they comply with local regulations and obtain necessary permissions before carrying satellite phones or GPS devices (with satellite communication capabilities).

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:00 What is the need for Starlink in India ?

A more autonomous alternative to a government run program for one.
Centre to rope in ISRO to provide Internet in 80 remote tribal villages

vera_k wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:17

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:00 What is the need for Starlink in India ?

A more autonomous alternative to a government run program for one.
Centre to rope in ISRO to provide Internet in 80 remote tribal villages

You are surely kidding right?!

Seeing the EU commissars troupe visit to India, EAM's visit to UK, Chatham house, then Ireland, meanwhile Goyal's team discussing FTA with the US and trying to connect the dots, I can't shake the feeling all did not go well during NaMo's trip to US and his meetings with Trump and co.

Trump saying during the presser with Modi Ji "He is a very tough negotiator" seemed insincere and looked like he was throwing a face saver. After years of apathy now within days we have moved our position on Tesla and Starlink.

May be I'm wrong but the chain of events feels like something is out of tune.

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:00 Amber G,
I have but one question.

What is the need for Starlink in India ? Except for pacifying Trump's favourite of the moment?

I'm a fan of Musk on some topics, I have some Tesla stock since years, but I draw the line when it comes to Bharat's interests.

"What is the need for Starlink in India" - I don't know (It is up to GoI etc to make the decisions etc) the reasons..
Meanwhile - there was a tweet by GoI Minister about Starlink , but that tweet has been deleted - (the deleted tweet did not give any background)
(Here is Airtel announcement agreement: <link>


OT but I am not a fan of Elon Musk (have known/talked with him and 'not being a fan' feelings are mutual)

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:23 You are surely kidding right?!

Not kidding. On the verge of going off topic, but I'm thinking any tools that allow people to take the initiative to help themselves or surroundings without waiting for the government is for the good.

Yes it will be OT. Perhaps you are transposing a model of governance not very relevant for India(ns).

vera_k wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:17

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:00 What is the need for Starlink in India ?

A more autonomous alternative to a government run program for one.
Centre to rope in ISRO to provide Internet in 80 remote tribal villages

Both Jio and Airtel are also continuing with their other satellite partnerships which are SES and Oneweb.

vera_k wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 04:10

Cyrano wrote: ↑13 Mar 2025 03:23 You are surely kidding right?!

Not kidding. On the verge of going off topic, but I'm thinking any tools that allow people to take the initiative to help themselves or surroundings without waiting for the government is for the good.

That's a very theoretical position grounded in an environment surrounded by two oceans, which brings in a measure of security to that environment, so many more sensitive technologies can be permitted. Very different implications for us.

The biggest difference is that Starlink is bound by the US Patriot Act, so the US gov will get access to sensitive comms when needed, not the case for us. Sort of the Blackberry issue from a decade ago.

What happened to Atmanirbhar Bharat?!

I think I have the answer to my own question. Cell phones are allowed because GoI can enforce a legal intercept on any device or user that it wishes and get all information about that user : the cell phone service provider is an Indian company bound by Indian laws and most importantly has equipment on Indian soil where GoI can enforce its writ.

With Starlink, none of this is possible. While GoI can request and pass laws forcing Starlink to do intercepts, GoI has no means of enforcing it short of preventing it from operating or fines.

I still maintain that the security risk of a Starlink terminal is the same as having an unregistered satellite phone for an individual… At a service level, Starlinks obvious links with US security agencies and their ability to intercept and track any device is more serious.

But then we live in India where people run entire private exchanges with dedicated lines under the radar, so there is that.

Tanaji wrote: ↑14 Mar 2025 01:31 I think I have the answer to my own question. Cell phones are allowed because GoI can enforce a legal intercept on any device or user that it wishes and get all information about that user : the cell phone service provider is an Indian company bound by Indian laws and most importantly has equipment on Indian soil where GoI can enforce its writ.

With Starlink, none of this is possible. While GoI can request and pass laws forcing Starlink to do intercepts, GoI has no means of enforcing it short of preventing it from operating or fines.

I still maintain that the security risk of a Starlink terminal is the same as having an unregistered satellite phone for an individual… At a service level, Starlinks obvious links with US security agencies and their ability to intercept and track any device is more serious.

But then we live in India where people run entire private exchanges with dedicated lines under the radar, so there is that.

FEWIW: My take:

While the argument presented above have many/some valid technical points, it oversimplifies the complexities of modern telecommunications networks and security architectures..

- Valid Points (I agree):

- It correctly highlights the difference in enforceability of legal intercepts between Indian cell phone service providers and Starlink. Indian companies are indeed bound by Indian laws and have equipment on Indian soil, making it easier for the GoI to enforce legal intercepts.

- The argument is also correct that Starlink's infrastructure is not physically located in India, making it more challenging for the GoI to enforce legal intercepts.

- The comparison between Starlink terminals and unregistered satellite phones is technically valid, as both can potentially bypass traditional wiretapping methods.

Oversimplifications (Things I do not 100% agree):

- It oversimplifies the role of physical infrastructure in enforcing legal intercepts. Modern telecommunications networks often rely on virtual infrastructure and cloud services, which can be accessed and monitored remotely.

- It assumes that Starlink's architecture is inherently more secure and less susceptible to interception. However, the actual security of Starlink's network depends on various factors, including its encryption methods, network architecture, and security protocols.

- It focuses primarily on traditional wiretapping methods and overlooks alternative intercept techniques, such as signals intelligence or cyber exploitation, which could potentially be used to intercept Starlink communications.
(Disclaimer - Not a fan of Elon or Starlink)

We can't intercept (may be we can jam) but they can potentially listen in on everything passing through their tech and weaponize by switching off service if we don't dance to their tune. That's the heart of the problem IMO.

Amber G. wrote: ↑14 Mar 2025 05:53

Oversimplifications (Things I do not 100% agree):

- It oversimplifies the role of physical infrastructure in enforcing legal intercepts. Modern telecommunications networks often rely on virtual infrastructure and cloud services, which can be accessed and monitored remotely.

- It assumes that Starlink's architecture is inherently more secure and less susceptible to interception. However, the actual security of Starlink's network depends on various factors, including its encryption methods, network architecture, and security protocols.

- It focuses primarily on traditional wiretapping methods and overlooks alternative intercept techniques, such as signals intelligence or cyber exploitation, which could potentially be used to intercept Starlink communications.
(Disclaimer - Not a fan of Elon or Starlink)

AmberG,

I think you misunderstood me slightly regarding physical vs virtual. Telecoms architecture has largely moved to virtual ones these days. My point was about enforcement. Governments will mandate the use of legal interception capability on all telecoms infrastructure. Exactly procedures vary, but there is usually a physical / virtual device installed in telecom operators premises that acts as Legal intercept gateway. The design of this is usually restricted and even not many in the operator know it either - this allows the government a great deal of flexibility. While procedures vary, it is often the case that the operator doesnt know who is being intercepted assuming they are not sticklers for warrants or use broad based warrants as is the case in India.

Now with Starlink, there is no physical office in India to enforce the intercept by putting in that gateway. You are at mercy of Starlink to give what you want entirely. Here is a scenario where it gets worse:

A US citizen with Khalistani proclivities is up to no good in India. He has a starlink terminal and GoI wants to intercept. The US thinks its court jurisdiction exists everywhere but other courts dont have any in US. I am willing to bet that GoI wont get any intercept citing US laws in this case and GoI is powerless to enforce. This is not the case where physical infra is in India.

Would that concern be mitigated by requiring a ground station?
That would be similar to the requirement that telecoms operator provide legal intercept infrastructure.

Starlink Ground Station

vera_k wrote: ↑14 Mar 2025 21:46 Would that concern be mitigated by requiring a ground station?
That would be similar to the requirement that telecoms operator provide legal intercept infrastructure.

Starlink Ground Station

I am not familiar with Starlink architecture but at first glance it appears it is an edge gateway - an entry and exit point for aggregated traffic, though I could be mistaken.

What one needs is the ability to first identify and isolate an individual users traffic stream and correlate it with other details such as location, billing details etc. Plus of course the ability to decrypt the stream at least at the starlink level. Edge gateways typically dont offer this functionality at least fully.

Tanaji - Thanks.

On that note, every iPhone has the ability to be used as a satellite phone. Though they say it is not supported outside the US & Canada, the technical ability to do so exists.

Messages via satellite

Meanwhile: Ranjani Srinivasan, an Indian student studying in US & was involved in activities supporting Hamas uses U.S. Customs and Border Protection Home App to Self Deport: US home land security statement

Meanwhile for Columbia:

Placing the Middle East, South Asian, and African Studies department under academic receivership”

>>> The government has delivered its demands to Columbia, including:

-Placing discipline under the president

-Adopting IHRA or similar

-“Placing the Middle East, South Asian, and African Studies department under academic receivership”

-Admissions reform etc..!!!

What does the term “academic receivership” mean?