Understanding the US - Again

[Rudradev]

How the immigration situation in the US is represented in media and political messaging has practically zero bearing on reality.

I've lived in the US 30 years. In that entire time, the vast bulk of menial jobs in the service, agricultural, industrial, construction and other sectors have been done by non-Americans who were mostly 'out-of-status' (either because they arrived in the US illegally or overstayed whatever permits they had).

I'm not talking about the relatively-menial jobs in the more knowledge-economy sectors like healthcare (nursing assistant), IT (low-level coders) etc. Those also have a high proportion of foreign-born workers, because they involve long arduous hours and pay less than what native-born Americans would like to earn for such work. But the foreign-born workers in these fields mostly have legal immigration status, if only temporary, at any given time.

But the illegals have always been there, and it has been (quite obviously) with the full knowledge of every American with half a brain. Everyone knew the servant class was needed. Everyone knew the servant class had to be imported, because no native-born American would take on those types of work for the wages that kept prices where they were. This was the consensus across the entire width of the American political spectrum from left to right.

What differs between the MAGA approach to this servant class and the erstwhile approach (both by Democrats and mainstream Republicans) to this class is as follows. Everyone always knew, and recognized, that the illegals were in a precarious position. In a sense this was good-- people who fear deportation, or on the contrary, who aspire that their children will gain the rights and privileges of US citizenship, are more likely to be undemanding and trouble-free workers. They are the ideal servants-- pay them less, work them harder, and they'll never protest because of the hopes and fears they bring to the table.

The Pre-Trump approach to the servant class was: let them believe, to one extent or another, that their hopes may be fulfilled one day (even in the next generation) and their fears will never be materialized as long as they behave themselves. Of course neither the Democrats nor the Republicans had any intention of ACTUALLY bringing the servant class into American society as "equals"... that would defeat the entire purpose of having such a class. But a carrot-and-stick policy could be used to manipulate their naturally precarious position for maximum gains to the consumer class of American society, who rely on access to these cheap and uncomplaining servants.

The MAGA approach to the servant class is that they should never, ever be able to hope for advancement, not even for the next generation of its members who are born in America (removal of birthright citizenship for example).

In effect, it becomes a lot more like how Western/Judeo-Christian scholars misrepresent India's so-called "caste system". While our jaati-varna system always allowed enough flexibility for the fortunes and status of different jaatis to rise and fall over time... at least until the British colonial period... Western scholars always portray it as something that was fixed from birth and passed on from generation to generation in perpetuity, cementing both privilege and disadvantage as a hereditary trait.

MAGA wants the illegal-immigrant servant class to accept a new social contract in which most of them will continue to stay in the US (yes, MAGA also knows how much their presence is vital to the US economy)-- but in which the terms of their being in the US are permanently altered to exclude any chance of their advancement and integration, even over generations, as a 'jaati'. The "ICE deportations" etc are just flamboyant displays of authority to intimidate any aspirations by the servant class to move beyond their status... killing the chicken to scare the monkey, as they say.

Biden and the Dems, for their part, went overboard trying to hyper-populate the servant class by letting in unprecedented millions of illegal immigrants. This does NOT mean they wanted the illegal immigrants to become empowered as full-status US citizens (that would defeat the entire purpose of a servant class, as described above-- the precarious status of this class is an integral part of the capacity to exploit their labour, for both Dems and Republicans).

This situation is NOT parallel to (say) Bangladeshi illegals in India, who are deliberately brought in by jihad-affiliated political networks and given fake Aadhaar/voter cards on an industrial scale to impose demographic change in various districts. What the Dems wanted to achieve was to increase the dependency of the American consumer class on the servant class to such an extent that there would be a fear of losing them if a very pro-deportation Trump regime came to power. It is a much more insidious form of social engineering than what the Mamatas or Siddaramaiahs of India are doing (i.e. pure population jihad). It aims to "addict" Americans to having an illegal-immigrant servant class so severely that they reject MAGA as a ludicrous and impractical approach.

[Vayutuvan]

This could be a scene straight out of a police state in a “third world” country.

It’s LA in Trump’s America.
...

We might soon see IFVs with 30mm machine cannon... Come on Trump ji. Show them who is da boss.

National Guard contingent of 2000 deployed in LA. Gavin "Newscum" Newsom, Karen Bass, and AOC called ICE all kinds of names including Gestapo (or something related to Nazis).

[vera_k]

The MAGA approach to the servant class is that they should never, ever be able to hope for advancement, not even for the next generation of its members who are born in America (removal of birthright citizenship for example).

Important point IMO. Birthright citizenship is why there isn't a groundswell for a referendum to have California rejoin Mexico.

[A_Gupta]

You should inquire into who exactly kept E-Verify from being mandatory and in the various states before coming up with theories like the ""addict" Americans to having an illegal-immigrant servant class".

This is from 2018:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ckout=true

Nobody wants to inconvenience the businesses that profit from the "servant class".

[ricky_v]

man, is there anything comfier than watching live streams of riotings in the us? you have so much footage public and citizen, great commentary, chat participation, understandable language; the floyd times were great, hoping this one goes further than that
here's to a thousand more

[Vayutuvan]

IT (low-level coders) etc. Those also have a high proportion of foreign-born workers, because they involve long arduous hours and pay less than what native-born Americans would like to earn for such work. But the foreign-born workers in these fields mostly have legal immigration status, if only temporary, at any given time.

One more point. They are willing to relocate on short notice as most of them share apartments with other colleagues in the same consulting company. they have network of apartments and are also ready to stay in low cost hotels weekly/monthly rental hotel rooms. They don't complain about travel, even driving. They don't mind in semi-rural areas. One example is Bloomington, IL where State Farm is HQed and has a very large software development center. Similarly Peoria, IL near where Caterpillar has mfg facilities and in-house software development.

Obama sent back lot of asylum seekers who came in across the southern border as they were competing with AAs in lower level jobs. Their upward movement is blocked due to Indian immigrants who were taking up the lower-level coding and sys admin jobs. AAs are in a free fall even now. They don't get work due to racism which leads to their not having any referrals (for jobs like handyman, landscaping, construction, small appliance repair, etc which need some skills) which makes them not get new gigs.

[Manish_P]

man, is there anything comfier than watching live streams of riotings in the us?....

Pretty disappointing that with all the gun ownership there is no streams of live ammo so far... I mean where has all the wild West spirit of gore of yore gone eh.

I think trump should put on a cowboy hat and jump on a horse to revive that era.

[Vayutuvan]

... at least until the British colonial period... Western scholars always portray it as something that was fixed from birth and passed on from generation to generation in perpetuity, cementing both privilege and disadvantage as a hereditary trait.

This is very perceptive. One of my friends, a yoga performing vegan single woman whois in her late 50s, who is also very liberal, highly anti-Trump, used to pester me with what she thought was gotcha question on caste. "Can I become a brahmin?". After explaining what the caste system is for the nth time, I was exasperated and said "yes, of course. All you need a brahmin gotra. Take kashypasa, which is my gotra and claim that you are my sister (adopted). In anycase, kashypasa is the default gotra. But good luck if you want to be a dalit". She says "Why would one want to live like a dalit?" (meaning that they are poor and live in slums and access to education, potable water, women get raped blah blah blah), Then I asked her whether I can be white. Her response "You are already a white. You are living a nice house in a very nice part of the town". Once she asked me whether she would be safe in India when I told her that Patanjali Iyengar was in Pune, India. I can employ her for a month two do sysadmin training to a couple of new sysadmins we hired in out Pune office. Then I sent a video compilation of all the attacks that have happened on women in NYC.

[Tanaji]

Rudradevji,

Another interpretation is that Trump is simply doing performative politics for his user base standing up to the hated liberals in their own backyard. There is no grand plan of MAGA trying to rewrite the social contract. After a couple of weeks things will die down, Trump will jump to the next performative sh*show.

Once you frame Trump as a better suited version of Laloo Yadav, then it falls into place

[Vayutuvan]

@rudradev gaaru is way off in his analysis though he makes some good points. I would say NY/NJ folks should look carefully at what is going on under their own nose.

Zohran Mamdani is on the way to securing the primary of NYC mayoral race. NJ is NJ. If they are close to Mexico or on the pacific coast, they would have joined Mexico or China.

[Vayutuvan]

This thread was elitism and is becoming more so by the day.

[Rudradev]

Rudradevji,

Another interpretation is that Trump is simply doing performative politics for his user base standing up to the hated liberals in their own backyard. There is no grand plan of MAGA trying to rewrite the social contract. After a couple of weeks things will die down, Trump will jump to the next performative sh*show.

Once you frame Trump as a better suited version of Laloo Yadav, then it falls into place

Both things are true.

Trump is indeed Laloo in a tacky suit. His family has functioned a certain way in the real estate business and then brought the same techniques (honed by mentors like Roy Cohn and Roger Stone) to the political arena. His game is to create controversy, bluff, bluster, and distract so that he can pocket whatever ill-gotten shekels are available-- then move on to the next distraction before anyone notices what happened. It's no surprise at all that he is in Pakistan and China's crypto pocket.

But there is an ideological side to MAGA represented by Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Michael Anton and others. These are committed figures who want to take advantage of Trump's attention-deficit posturing to enact an actual policy agenda of ensuring a permanent caste divide between the white (or at least, native-born) Americans and the immigrant servant class.

They are the ones responsible for the mass deportation campaigns of the past several months, which have been conducted with such exuberant overreach that they're being stymied by the courts (as just one example, the US was recently forced to repatriate one Abrego-Garcia chap who had initially been deported to an El Salvadoran prison on the grounds of belonging to the MS-13 gang).

Yes indeed, the MAGA ideologues 'sell' their way of doing things to Trump as a way of "owning the libs" as you mention-- that is the political utility of their approach for Trump, who stands to gain by appearing strong and uncompromising while the liberals whine and virtue-signal. But their agenda is absolutely to rewrite the social contract-- they've said so many times in public pronouncements.

If possible I'm sure they would have preferred some other figurehead than Trump-- who cannot commit his attention to seeing anything through and has no serious ideological motivation of his own. JD Vance must have seemed a likely candidate to them until they found out his wife and children aren't white enough. One of the strongest articulators of their point of view was, ironically, Vivek Ramaswamy-- until they all ganged up to exclude him under the vanguard of Laura Loomer. I bet Vivek is thanking his lucky stars to be far removed from the ongoing circus of Musk/DOGE vs Trump.

[Vayutuvan]

One of the strongest articulators of their point of view was, ironically, Vivek Ramaswamy-- until they all ganged up to exclude him under the vanguard of Laura Loomer. I bet Vivek is thanking his lucky stars to be far removed from the ongoing circus of Musk/DOGE vs Trump.

@rudradev ji, so you agree with V. Ramaswamy's observation that white Americans (or atleast native-born) are not hardworking and don't study beyond HS, if that, hain ji?

Look around at your own institution and tell me what percentage are WASPs in STEM fields, both faculty and students. His friend JD Vance is a counter example, the white trash he is.

Our Indian grad students are not putting their back into their studies. As soon as they get a little bit of VC funding, they stop their studies and do a westward ho. There is gold in thaar hills.

[Vayutuvan]

https://www.businesstoday.in/entreprene ... 2022-07-27

55% of American unicorns founded by immigrants; Indians top the chart
As the country of origin for immigrant founders in the US, Indians top the charts with 66 companies.

Let us dig into it further.

Over half of America’s start-ups (319 out of 582 or 55 per cent) valued at $1 billion or more have been founded by immigrants. As the country of origin for immigrant founders in the US, Indians top the charts with 66 companies. Israelis followed suit with the second highest number of billion-dollar companies at 54.

66 companies by immigrants from 1.4 billion country vs 54 companies from a 0.01 billion country.

The UK, Canada, China, France, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Iran, Australia, Romania, Nigeria, South Korea, New Zealand, Pakistan, Argentina and several other countries also contributed to US’ start-up ecosystem, according to a recent National Foundation for American Policy (NFAP) report.

If we exclude Shittistan and Mainland China (but include ROC and HK) and add up the populations of the rest of the countries in the list, we are gonna cut a sorry figure when we start bragging about our success in the US high tech world. My guess is that once we factor in the valuations (not just the benchmark of # of unicorn, all the hype our people are capable of vis a vis others is not warranted, at all.

If we exclude second generation immigrants from the mix, the numbers would tell a completely different story - my WAG.
I am sure all the Math/Science folks here are capable writing a Python or bash script (or R the flavor of the day for data analytics and visualization now days?) or an Excel spreadsheet to prove me wrong "on the numbers".

[vera_k]

California governor is courting arrest. Which brings to mind the question.

What is the USA's equivalent of Tihar jail? Where high profile political prisoners may be kept.

[Vayutuvan]

[Vayutuvan]

[Vayutuvan]

Nutanix is doing poorly and is valued at $750 M. Cohesity is same old same old stuff. Moderna is $10B, Musk's companies are are $1 T total (?). Databricks is valued at $68 B.

[ricky_v]

Pretty disappointing that with all the gun ownership there is no streams of live ammo so far... I mean where has all the wild West spirit of gore of yore gone eh.

I think trump should put on a cowboy hat and jump on a horse to revive that era.

True it was not as bombastic before, but I think that's a normal phase of building up, it's heating up now, lets see what occurs and is not hopefully resolved by courts but by strength of arms

Hispanic Americans are more headstrong than the docile Caucasian ones anyways and we can expect to see some loose ak phyrring if things go sideways, giving eager viewers early visuals of the 4th of July celebrations

[Vayutuvan]

From the article

Interestingly, immigrant-founded American companies like SpaceX ($125 billion), Stripe ($95 billion), Instacart ($39 billion), Databricks ($38 billion), Epic Games ($31.5 billion), Miro ($17.5 billion) and Discord ($15 billion) have the highest valuations.

2022 data. Nevertheless not a single one of them is started by an Immigrant from Bharat.

PIOs better put our nose to the grind than to go to town prematurely and start crowing about our achievements.

[Tanaji]

Vayutuvanji, I am not familiar with the VC scene: how much of it is “good old boys network “ especially related to matters of finance? And if so - does being of a lighter shade help? Wouldn’t being Jewish be even more helpful? Also, what is the overall point you are trying to make - not that I am disputing your facts…

[Vayutuvan]

Also, what is the overall point you are trying to make - not that I am disputing your facts…

Very simply that PIOs in the US (I have a feeling that is not the case in the UK) tend to overestimate themselves vis a vis other recent immigrant groups. Granted that Jewish immigrated into the US in large numbers just at the start of WW II, i.e. around time of Hitler's Kristallnacht and Indian immigration started in 1960s and accelerated in 1980s and peaking in 2010s.

Almost all successful entrepreneurs from India have Indian urban upbringing and private school education and from well-to-do families. Even Sunder Pichai's family is upper middle class Indian by any metric.

PIO bicoastals compare those urban Indian immigrants with mid-west rural folks and misread what makes them support/vote for Trump and reject KD, Ramaswamy, Ro Khanna (if ever wants to and given a chance to throw his hat into the ring for cabinet position). Some of these folks are not trusted not because they are PoC but because of their elitist mentality.

Their supporting Baptist KD, Catholic Pelosi, Islamist Omar, racist Biden, Kellogg school Jayapal, Wellesley-Yale HiC, Harvard Obama is inconsistent with their support of Modi ji. They view Modi as Mani Shankar Aiyer, Sam Pitroda, Rahul Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi view him - an unsophisticated brute gawar who cannot understand the finer things in life.

[Vayutuvan]

This page is relevant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority

The term model minority refers to a minority group, defined by factors such as ethnicity, race, or religion, whose members are perceived to be achieving a higher socioeconomic status in comparison to the overall population average. Consequently, these groups are often regarded as a role model or reference group for comparison to external groups (outgroups). This success is typically assessed through metrics including educational attainment, representation within managerial and professional occupations, household income, and various other socioeconomic indicators such as criminal activity and strong family and marital stability.[1] The prominent association of the model minority concept is with Asian Americans within the United States.[2] Additionally, analogous concepts of classism have been observed in numerous European countries, leading to the stereotyping of specific ethnic groups.

The concept of the model minority has generated controversy due to its historical application to suggest that economic intervention by governments is unnecessary to address socioeconomic disparities among particular racial groups.[5] Primarily evident in the American context, this argument has been employed to draw contrasts between Asian Americans (particularly those of East and some South Asian origins) and Jewish Americans in comparison to African Americans and Indigenous peoples. Consequently, this perpetuates the propagation of a 'model minority myth', asserting that Asian and Jewish Americans are exemplary law-abiding and productive citizens or immigrants, while concurrently .reinforcing the stereotype that Indigenous and African American communities are predisposed to criminal behavior and dependent on welfare

The following two paras summarize how this model minority myth affects second-gen PIOs. Only a small fraction of Indian-American kids are able to get into top universities. It is very similar to Indian situation.

Some educators hold Asian students to a higher standard.[26] This deprives those students with learning disabilities from being given attention that they need. The connotations of being a model minority mean Asian students are often labeled with the unpopular "nerd" or "geek" image.[26]: 223  Asians have been the target of harassment, bullying, and racism from other races due to the racially divisive model minority stereotype.[80]: 165  The higher expectations placed on East Asians as a result of the model minority stereotype carries over from academics to the workplace.[26]

The model minority stereotype is emotionally damaging to many Asian Americans, since there are unjustified expectations to live up to stereotypes of high achievement. The pressures from their families to achieve and live up to the model minority image have taken a tremendous mental and psychological toll on young Asian Americans.[81][82] The model minority stereotype also influences Asian American students' psychological outcomes and academic experience. The model minority image can lead underachieving Asian American students to minimize their own difficulties and experience anxiety or psychological distress about their academic difficulties. Asian American students also have more negative attitudes toward seeking academic or psychological help[83] due to fear of shattering the high expectations of teachers, parents, and classmates.[84]

[Vayutuvan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotyp ... l_minority

Along with East Asian people, South Asians are stereotyped as model minorities with certain expected behavior.[13] These stereotypes are encouraged by media stories such as an article by Forbes magazine entitled "Indian Americans: The New Model Minority". Richwine claims, "The success of Indian Americans is often ascribed to the culture they bring with them, which places strong – some would even say obsessive – emphasis on academic achievement".[13][14] Similarly, while Asian Indians in the United States have among the highest percentage of college degrees as well as highest income among all ethnic and racial groups, for every South Asian who has a degree with high income, there is another South Asian who struggles to gain job skills and become trained to be gainfully employed.[15][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotyp ... similation

Two conflicting but prevailing stereotypes in Europe and North America relate to alienation and assimilation by people of South Asian origins.

Hernandez, for example, in her analysis of Richard Rodriguez – the Anisfield-Wolf Book Award winner – and V.S. Naipaul – the Nobel laureate in literature of Indo-Caribbean origin – quotes Albert Memmi's classic, illustrating the stereotype. Memmi claims they make every effort to look Western, in the hope that no one will recognise them; from this proceeds their efforts to forget their past, to change their collective customs, their enthusiastic adoption of the Western language, culture and values, alleges Memmi.[18][19]

Simultaneously these people are also stereotyped as old fashioned, irrational, weird in their customs, servile to their ethnic habits, lacking all sense of individuality, not eager to learn and grow, not speaking or adopting local language (for example, French or English), not wanting to assimilate and be a part of the melting pot. Some stereotype them as betraying a past, others as betraying the future. These stereotypes reflect innate discomfort, confusion and possibly a struggle with rejection by those who stereotype as well as those who are being stereotyped.[18][19]

Hernandez notes, for Naipaul, after a start in a humble family background, personal and professional success could only be achieved through learning, understanding and assimilation. This conflicting stereotype is not unique to South Asians. As Hernandez outlines, the same stereotypes exist against people from different regions of the world, such as against Rodriguez of Mexico.[19]

[vera_k]

Nutanix is doing poorly and is valued at $750 M. Cohesity is same old same old stuff. Moderna is $10B, Musk's companies are are $1 T total (?). Databricks is valued at $68 B.

For that matter, Udacity sold for $25 million to Accenture IIRC. Any company that makes it to publicly traded status deserves respect.

[Vayutuvan]

@Tanaji ji,

PIOs in the US think they have achieved the whiteman status due to their "hardwork", education, and economic success. Yet they don't have either enough money to relocate to India or risk-averse or both. What is the second best thing to do? Of course, there is a ready made whiteman's burden in the AAs, Hispanics, and (a distant third) the Native Americans but not so called "white trash". The last group deserve their lot because didn't they oppress AAs, Hispanics, exterminated Native Americans, and discriminated against Indians?!!!

That is where Vivek Ramaswamys, KD Harriss, Parmila Jayapals, Ro Khannas of the world are coming from. Our own resistance to SB503 (or somesuch) is small witness to the OC/FC arrogance.

[Vayutuvan]

For that matter, Udacity sold for $25 million to Accenture IIRC. Any company that makes it to publicly traded status deserves respect.

Why? There are very successful privately held companies. For example, SAS Institute.

[Vayutuvan]

@Tanaji ji,

PIOs in the US think they have achieved the whiteman status due to their "hardwork", education, and economic success. Yet they don't have either enough money to relocate to India or risk-averse or both. What is the second best thing to do? Of course, there is a ready made whiteman's burden in the AAs, Hispanics, and (a distant third) the Native Americans but not so called "white trash". The last group deserve their lot because didn't they oppress AAs, Hispanics, exterminated Native Americans, and discriminated against Indians?!!!

That is where Vivek Ramaswamys, KD Harriss, Parmila Jayapals, Ro Khannas of the world are coming from. Our own resistance to SB503 (or somesuch) is a small witness to the OC/FC arrogance.

[vera_k]

Why? There are very successful privately held companies. For example, SAS Institute.

No reason to run down Nutanix. Its valued at $20B on the US markets, which is significant.

[Yagnasri]

The term 'South Asian' is critical. You will find Indians doing well and not Pakis and BDs. Remove the South Asian aspect, and you will find different figures. Additionally, some communities tend to prioritise hard work over education as a means to lead a fulfilling life. That culture also carries its ideas to the US.

[ricky_v]

Here are the streams btw

streams:
Portland Andy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blvRKi9VmNM

IRT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Aw8m1xM5pk

ABC7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3iVFJoxrYc

FOX11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgo0FbpiUD8

CNBC-TV18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W4qTVWKXFA

woke.net https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKmQxRPvdw

SmokeNScan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7YOkczJDH0

Lookner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOy2CLrv0Ro

Austin Zone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MiNRmIsms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okNEM7j8FjU
Multiview
https://holodex.net/multiview/AAHMDOy2C ... BKmQxRPvdw

[Vayutuvan]

No reason to run down Nutanix. Its valued at $20B on the US markets, which is significant.

I am not running down the company. I am somewhat (a lot, if I dare to say so) annoyed and irritated by the hype of "role model". Unfortunately, I had to deal with that for the first 27 years of my life. Personal angst.

[Vayutuvan]

The term 'South Asian' is critical. You will find Indians doing well and not Pakis and BDs. Remove the South Asian aspect, and you will find different figures. Additionally, some communities tend to prioritise hard work over education as a means to lead a fulfilling life. That culture also carries its ideas to the US.

Yagnasri gaaru, you are missing the point. Define "doing well" and see where we go from there.

[Rudradev]

@rudradev ji, so you agree with V. Ramaswamy's observation that white Americans (or atleast native-born) are not hardworking and don't study beyond HS, if that, hain ji?

Not sure how you reached the conclusion that I "agree" with that particular observation by him. What I said was that he has been one of the strongest articulators of the nationalist, pro-natalist MAGA ideology for a really broad spectrum of audiences. He was out there for years, speaking his mind on podcasts, media interviews, public appearances, campaign meetings and such before the tweet you speak of.

As for that particular observation, what's interesting about it https://x.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status/18 ... 07?lang=en is the persistence of a certain Urban Educated Middle Class Indian mindset among a section of 2nd-generation Indian-Americans who share his background-- born to the wave of professionals/academics who immigrated to the US before the mid-1990s "IT" boom. This UEMCI attitude ("spend all your time studying-- do not waste time on dating and all that-- why didn't you score higher marks-- join more extracurriculars that count towards college admission, like so-and-so's son") is practically a trope. Also intriguing that it closely mirrors the "tiger mom" stereotype perpetuated by Amy Chua (who was an ideological mentor of both JD Vance and Vivek Ramaswamy at Yale).

Meanwhile, the sheer fragility of Trump-voting white people having a scream-sobbing meltdown at the implications of his UEMCI statement-- gently worded as it was-- made me laugh

Demonstrated conclusively to me that they are are every bit as Woke, regarding the sanctity of their own halfwit worldview, as the pro-transgender/Palestine/cause-du-jour snowflakes on the Left.

Look around at your own institution and tell me what percentage are WASPs in STEM fields, both faculty and students. His friend JD Vance is a counter example, the white trash he is.

Anecdotal assertions from any individual person's circumstances don't actually tell us much.

From your rhetorical request it seems that you have made certain assumptions here about what the percentage actually is, vs. what people supposedly perceive it to be, at STEM institutions in general. Why not share the data you have regarding the 'actual' vs. 'supposedly perceived' percentages? This would help clarify the point you're trying to make.

Our Indian grad students are not putting their back into their studies. As soon as they get a little bit of VC funding, they stop their studies and do a westward ho. There is gold in thaar hills.

Does this refer to all grad students in India? STEM grad students in India? STEM students from India now pursuing grad studies in the United States? And again, what are the data (not anecdotal, but actual figures) to substantiate this being a general trend?

What proportion of students receive VC funding and drop their studies-- and does this differ significantly between Indians vs others? Also, what does the choice of a student who wins VC funding to drop his/her studies (for the moment) indicate? In their place, I would likely do the same; you can always go back to grad school if things don't work out, but VCs aren't going to wait around.

[Vayutuvan]

@rudradev, we overestimate ourselves. We are too competitive as if we are still living in nehruvian socialist India where resources were scarce. You know who are the others who are more competitive? Russian Amrus, east European amrus. Jewish have mellowed down somewhat. But it is too late for them in that all the antisemitism from neoliberals is coming from their perception of Jewish control everything of importance - money, media, govt, and ofc businesses. New European immis brought their Jewish hate to the US. They have come into money and gave going after Jewish now.

As for data, you give data first for your assertions that Amrus are addicted to cheap labor and want to exploit the illegal immigrants.

[Rudradev]

@rudradev, we overestimate ourselves. We are too competitive as if we are still living in nehruvian socialist India where resources were scarce. You know who are the others who are more competitive? Russian Amrus, east European amrus. Jewish have mellowed down somewhat. But it is too late for them in that all the antisemitism from neoliberals is coming from their perception of Jewish control everything of importance - money, media, govt, and ofc businesses. New European immis brought their Jewish hate to the US. They have come into money and gave going after Jewish now.

I don't get you. We are too competitive BUT we overestimate ourselves? Competitiveness, as you mentioned, often comes from a worldview based on scarcity. If we are driven by such a worldview then by definition we don't overestimate ourselves, or at least our current level of influence or prosperity-- otherwise, what would we be competing to achieve?

Unless you are arguing that Indians overestimate even our capacity to compete and succeed in the US, and therefore should simply not compete, because we just don't have the potential to succeed.

Also, please clarify what you mean by "neoliberal". If you say that antisemitism comes from "neoliberals", you are clearly not using it in the same sense as it is used in US discourse. In US academia and media the term is used to describe a particular brand of belief in the mold of people like Bill Clinton and others who came up after the cold war. In contrast to the pre-Reagan-era liberals, the neoliberals subscribe to the Francis Fukuyama view on globalization and free-trade economics, support an interventionist and hegemonistic foreign policy, and pursue "social liberalism" alongside free-market economics at home (with regards to gay rights, abortion rights, etc.) A very large number of neoliberal thinkers and commentators are Jews, and support for Israel is sacred to them.

If you are talking about the AOC-Bernie type Democratic Socialists, they are not "neoliberals" at all... they are a far-left counterreaction to neoliberals who want more intervention by government in the economy, populist spending, higher taxes, and ultra-woke/DEI social policies.

As for data, you give data first for your assertions that Amrus are addicted to cheap labor and want to exploit the illegal immigrants.

Ok, here are just a few figures that add up to a pretty convincing picture of U.S. addiction to immigrant labor.

1) https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil. ... arehousing.

Undocumented immigrants are more likely to be of working age than the U.S.-born. In 2022, 89.4 percent of undocumented immigrants were between the ages of 16 and 64, compared with 61.3 percent of the U.S.-born population. This helps explain the high labor-force participation rate of undocumented immigrants—three quarters of this population participated in the workforce in 2022. Despite comprising just 3.3 percent of the population, undocumented immigrants represented 4.6 percent of the country’s employed labor force, or 7.5 million people.

With an unemployment rate averaging under 4.0 percent since 2022, U.S.-born workers could not fill all the jobs of undocumented workers even if they tried to. The country is heavily reliant on an undocumented workforce in industries like construction, agriculture, and hospitality.

Nationally, mass deportation would remove 1.5 million workers from the construction workforce and 224,700 workers from the agriculture industry. Meanwhile, about one million undocumented workers in the hospitality industry would be deported due to their lack of immigration status; 870,400 in the manufacturing industry; 500,800 in general services, which includes things like auto repair, barber shops, and dry cleaning services; and 460,500 in transportation and warehousing

2) Analysis of consumer prices if illegal immigrants were mass-deported from the US to various extents. Essentially they would rise 9.1% by 2028.
https://www.piie.com/sites/default/file ... df#page=21

3) Analysis of interdependent employment: for every 500,000 illegals deported from the US-- 44,000 US-born workers would lose their jobs
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the- ... 2044%2C000.

Admittedly these sorts of analyses are often done by institutions who are inimical to Trump's policies on immigration. I haven't done a deep dive into their sources of their data and calculations. However, even if we discount say 50% of their claims, the degree of labor shortages, impact on consumer prices/GDP and job losses in the US domestic market are substantial enough to say that the US is addicted to immigrant labor.

As for "wanting to exploit"-- that's obvious enough. Why not declare full amnesty for all illegal aliens, or even give them a well-defined path to citizenship? Why did even the Democrats never manage to do this, or ratify the DREAM act? On the contrary, why not just deport 100% of them in all these decades-- after all, they broke the law?

Answer: Because at some level Americans want to enjoy the economic benefits of their presence while maintaining a privileged legal status above theirs.

[Vayutuvan]

Answer: Because at some level Americans want to enjoy the economic benefits of their presence while maintaining a privileged legal status above theirs.

"Americans" includes PIOs as well. Those who are living in metropolitan areas (a few examples NY/NJ/CT Tristate, Atlanta, DC area, Bay area, San Antonio, LA-San Diego, Chicago, Huston, Miami (?), Denver, Seattle-Redmond) do really want them on an ongoing basis maintain everything. Since the cost of living is 2x of midwest - St. Louis, Indianapolis, Columbus, DFW (at least for now), Nashville, Charlotte (for now?), RTP, South and central VA, Kansas City, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Louisville, Cincinnati, Cleveland, etc.

It is a myth that mid-westerners have far lower standard of living. Metro people think that cost of living is directly proportional to standard of living.

The only way they can keep their cost of living down is to depress salaries of the labor. It doesn't matter whether you import them from Latin/South America/Mexico or ship the jobs there.

Biden/KD/Newsom/Pelosi/Schumer want them to come here while GOPers want them to stay put in their own countries.

DNC had their 8 years under Obama (who strengthened Iran making Israel less safe), 4 yrs of Trump, and then DNC got a second helping under 4 years unelected NAC like cabal. Americans felt it is time to give Orangeutan a second chance to try his new team out.

That is all that is there to it. Americans were not satisfied with the DNC. There is no guarantee that Trump is going to give them what they want.

Let us keep that in mind going forward.

(I have to go but I will think more about this and will come back)

[vera_k]

That's a more recent economic take.

But Trump with his talks of invasion is harkening back to the Mexican-American war.
Been a long time since the US Army had to defend the homeland.

Is this a move to head off California secession?

PROTECTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AGAINST INVASION
Future Vote on Whether California Should Become Independent Country
Mexican American War

[bala]

The regular army (the marines) has been sent in (refer: youtube.com/watch?v=bvKoYFq9lL0 from left wing ABC media). Maybe the Khans will use a tactical nuke (on Kaliforna/Mexico) before the Russians do in Ukraine!

[Vayutuvan]

Let me try to put it very simply.

Axiom: Humans are exploitative. They exploit others who weaker as per a metric that is most important at given point of time and place.

1. American voters have a binary choice in every election town, county, local, state, or national - DNC or GOP.
2. Given that both are exploitative, I will have to vote for those who are good for my town, county, state, and for the country.
3. On a global scale Americans exploit every country in the world to one extent or the other. Maybe Euros are exploited less but PoC countries are exploited more. It is not intentional. That is how history worked out.
4. The only difference between DNC and GOP when it comes to exploitation is that the former is a little bit more subtle. They want to exploit menial labor who are required on the spot. Also there is a side benefit. These people who get a chance to work here become their baanchanu for life and vote for them en block. For the latter, the exploitation has to be out of their sight. Also, they use loving emissaries to go and do work in those countries where people are exploited the most.
5. Indians who want to immigrate here for those menial labor jobs (which are aplenty by supposition) face a lot of obstacles - far away land, our being non-abrahamic, and skin color. The skin color is not much a problem for Latin and S. Americans as they are mostly of european descent.
6. Only those Indians who have education that is useful in service jobs would be able to migrate. Currently (a little before now) the bar for educational qualifications is much lower for obtaining an IT jobs than coming for studies. English skills, how ever poor, are good enough to beat Latinos, Chinese, Far Easterners who have same or better education as these Indians.
7. Indian-Americans are no different from educated whites, blacks/latinos/recent european immigrants. So what is good for them is also good for us, i.e. exploitation on site or out of sight.

Question: Why should I prefer KD over Trump or vice versa? or for that matter Vivek Ramaswamy over Musk?

Vivek R. is an interesting case. He is a Hindu, Harvard-Yale, and has succeeded in business (for the time being let us forget how ethical he was in his business practices).

The argument put forward by all is that he has been relegated to Ohio by the GOP due to his skin color and religion, i.e. racism and bigotry. For the time being, let us accept that argument. Would he have a better future in DNC then? I bet not. JHe is a nationalist and anti-immigration. His opposition to Haitians flooding Ohio makes him a racist. His unethical business practices makes him unsuitable for the virtue signalling DNC powers that be. He is brahmin Hindu which means he is born a racist. One can say why is KD acceptable then? Simple. She is intersectional, a woman, married to feminist white man (no, no, let us not dig into his past sexism, he is a changed man now) and she is baptist too.

(sotto voce) Her constituency is full of Indian-American billionaires who are not casteist, secular, and oh so well educated at IITs/Ivy leagues/Stanfords of Amreeka. They will donate millions and millions to her campaign. She is not all that bright so she can be controlled.

A subset of those people are spamming BRF and shutting down any criticism of their favored candidate and amplify every misstep Trump is making and every legal defeat he is suffering.

Schadenfreude: (from Wikipedia)

Conversely, for someone with low self-esteem, someone who is more successful poses a threat to their sense of self, and seeing this person fall can be a source of comfort because they perceive a relative improvement in their internal or in-group standing.[6]

• Aggression-based schadenfreude primarily involves group identity. The joy of observing the suffering of others comes from the observer's feeling that the other's failure represents an improvement or validation of their own group's (in-group) status in relation to external (out-groups) groups (see: In-group and out-group). This is, essentially, schadenfreude based on group versus group status.
• Rivalry-based schadenfreude is individualistic and related to interpersonal competition. It arises from a desire to stand out from and out-perform one's peers. This is schadenfreude based on another person's misfortune eliciting pleasure because the observer now feels better about their personal identity and self-worth, instead of their group identity.
• Justice-based schadenfreude comes from seeing that behavior seen as immoral or "bad" is punished. It is the pleasure associated with seeing a "bad" person being harmed or receiving retribution. Schadenfreude is experienced here because it makes people feel that fairness has been restored for a previously un-punished wrong, and is a type of moral emotion.

If you are having a feeling of Schadenfreude, choose your pick from one of the above.