Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 16 Jan 2014 21:51
^^^ That is called killing expelling two birds with one stone. Bravo!
Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/
.The IMR has in a report said that the "top brass of the IAF and IA expressed shock at the decision to award a $1B contract on Dec. 27th for additional Hercules C-130Js"
"Out top priority is to have fighters as soon as possible.,but we are surprised by the MOD move on why the Govt. is not signing the $12B MMRCA (contract with Dassault of France) and instead buying transport aircraft for us,said a "senior IAF official".
IA officials said that it has no combat worthy arty,hoping for the 145 ultra-light howitzer deal to go through,and that more than $40B worth of procurement items were in the pipeline but "no significant purchases are being made".
So Preet Bharara is a hero for this sootiya.
I was extremely pained to see questions asking why does a maid need $9 just because she is working in NYC since her lodging and meals were taken care of. Why does Khobragade or any Indian diplomat need US salaries? After all, they too live in the same consulate. This feigned outrage in India against the treatment meted to Devyani is nothing but the preening middle class asking "how dare a maid take one of our own to court and have her arrested". This is nothing to do with protecting India's honor. Rather it is bourgeoise India reacting with feudal impulses against a maid. There have been other instances when Indians have been arrested, sometimes wrongly too, and not a single squeak was heard from India.
Many seem to ignore that Devyani used every lever of power to crush the maid. As any middle class employer of India would do Devyani too registered a case of theft against the maid, in India, not in NYC where the purported theft took place. An Indian court gagged the maid from pursuing a legal option in US where the grievance, underpayment, was taking place. Above all, the maid's 'official passport', not Indian passport, was cancelled and a non-bailable arrest warrant issued against her. Non-bailable warrant. For what? And a case was registered against the maid's husband too? For what. I am beyond myself for any iota of sympathy for Devyani or the purported outrage to her modesty. Devyani met her match in Preet Bharara. If Bharara did not exist Devyani, in Bollywood film style, would have stamped into the ground the maid and her family. This is not empty conjecture. It is what Devyani set out to do.
Clean Khobrgade Mess
Indrani Bagchi
US is a legalistic society, so put it all down on paper with built-in reciprocal arrangements.
Devyani Khobragade is back and bidding fair to being a launch-pad for a family political career under the tutelage of an ambitious parent. India-US relations lie in tatters with little expectation of a revival any time soon.
{It takes two hands to clap. Where is the hand from US side? Are you an idiot to demand India do the calpping all by itself?}
The Indian outburst against the diplomat's treatment threw the US. There was nothing when former presidents or sitting ambassadors were patted down by US security officials at airports. It is well known, goes the US understanding, that Indians treat their servants like slaves, without human rights or fair wages and for inhumanly long hours. Indians are bleeding hearts when it comes to a rich female diplomat but ignore the plight of the underpaid, overworked servant.
{This is standard MUTU tactic to repeat the otherside's accusation pretending to be fair and balanced. Its SOP for those who bat against Indian interests.}
American commentary has burned through newsprint and cyberspace about how this rising country juxtaposes a bright and growing middle class with grinding poverty. Oh, and let's not forget that old Draupadi vastraharan story, which is apparently why otherwise sane Indians went ballistic. All arguments intended to highlight one thing — Indians really have no business protesting against the treatment of a diplomat.
Yes, there are many Indians who ill-treat their domestic servants, just like there are innumerable instances of Americans or Europeans or others mistreating their servants and workers. None of this has any bearing on the present case because Sangeeta Richard was not treated improperly or paid poorly. It is about an overweening interest in getting the Richard family over to the US by some 'sympathetic' US officials. The ensuing mess flows from this one fact.
{If you got thsi why did you have to recount the littany of woes peddled by US SD and their minions?}
Whatever MEA's private opinion about Devyani, the Indian system had to stand up for her particularly when there was no wrongdoing. For the same reason that the US stood up for Raymond Davies in Pakistan, India had to protect its officials for its own credibility.
{Are you nuts to compare Raymond Davies who shot dead two paksitanis and Devayani Khobragade who is alleged to have underpaid her maid when all evidence is to the contrary? Learn to make you poitn without resorting to wrong analogy.}
But having emerged on the other side of the looking glass, the Indian system needs to do some serious housekeeping.
{Agreed.}
First, junior diplomats do not need to take domestic helps to the US or European countries. The government can pick up the tab for cleaning services, child care, entertainment etc, but diplomats must learn to live without servants abroad. Pay a maid in the US at the prevailing rate — it's cheaper than taking a servant along. For this, the external affairs ministry (MEA) should change its service rules. The other option is to bring domestic servants under government employment, putting them in a different visa category. The finance ministry opposes that for good reason.
Second, it is very important to work out a set of rules for diplomats, their immunity status or mission security, with the US. The informal 'wink-nod' arrangements with the State Department just do not work. The US is a legalistic society, so put it all down on paper with built-in reciprocal arrangements. The US has been reluctant to have this conversation all these years — the Khobragade affair is a good place to start.
{Again Khobragade affair is not the right term to use.}i/]
The US has already used the issue to unveil a strategic plan to register domestic workers of foreign diplomats in the US for trafficking and other abuses. India should use this to put its own house in order.
The State Department and the US embassy in New Delhi dropped the ball on Khobragade — but so did the MEA. This issue should have been nipped in the bud months ago, particularly when the US Trafficking Act of 2000 makes it easier for Indians of all stripes to be eligible for this status, whether warranted or otherwise. The Indian embassy in Washington and South Block have some answering to do here. New Delhi needs to set up systems that can manage the relationship better, anticipate and solve problems in advance.
{Unnecessary equal-equal here. Did India strip search and cavity search diplomats who exfitrated pending court case people?}
A closer look should be given to how many supposedly rare 'trafficking' visas are issued to Indians. The numbers are shocking: more Indian families get trafficking visas to join their 'trafficked' spouses and parents than any other country. Nobody denies there are huge trafficking issues in India. The home ministry just needs to understand this better by interviewing those going to the US on trafficking visas.
{Have you considered that the US was issuing those trafficking visas to Indians to make India a poster figure in their campaign to reclaim lost moral standing after the Iraq-Afghan war debacle?}
India and the US conducted a bilateral conversation on trafficking that, like many other bilateral initiatives, has fallen silent. Neither Barack Obama nor Manmohan Singh is parti-cularly interested in the bilateral relationship. Nor is Susan Rice or Shivshankar Menon. But we cannot let a vital relationship like this fall prey to competing negligence.
As envoy to China, S Jaishankar led the Indian team to put India-China ties on an even keel, and in a previous avatar was India's lead negotiator for the nuclear deal, acknowledged as the only high point in the UPA decade. A top-notch negotiator, Jaishankar has a more challenging job as he steps over the broken china in Washington. His primary task will be to put back on course a strategic partnership gone awry. The first ice-breaker happened on Tuesday with a lunch meeting with William Burns.
During the Khobragade crisis, Jaishankar and foreign secretary Sujatha Singh teamed up effectively, which bodes well for the future because it will be Sujatha's job to rally South Block to ensure MEA goes beyond hurt egos and 'diploutrage'. There is a time for anger. But now is the time to move on India's interests. Of those there are many.
{Here the true purpose of her article comes out. She imagines that there could be bad blood between Sujatha Singh and S. Jaishankar who were contenders for the MEA secy job and is happy that they are working together. Note her praising SJ's skills but not acknowledging SS!}
Were they really fired?Alicia Muller May and Wayne May were let go after making comments on social media about Indian culture.
The word 'Dalit' was popularized by a noted Marathi "SC/ST" poet Namdeo Dhasal - who founded the Dalit Panthers and tragically died a few days ago - and became widely accepted by people of that community. It is similar to 'people of a particular ethnicity' in the USA who themselves made clear that they preferred the term 'African-American' to 'Black' or any other term.Jarita wrote: Can we not use the word Dalits? That itself was created by US churches. Can we mention - disadvantaged jaatis or harijans
Asterix (anmol) drank the magic potion brewed by Cacofonix (Social Media) to vanquish the garrison and made them retreat.Singha wrote:years and years of living like a wealthy roman camp among poor gaulish villages have rendered the patricians soft and left quite a few loose ends that poor gauls can now creep forward and pull the fat senators toga down.
Letters to Editor
Murky episode
Sir — The Khobragade affair began with a bang but ended with a whimper (“Devyani leaves US”, Jan 10). But we may not have yet seen the last episode of this riveting drama. The aggrieved IFS officer leaves not vindicated but under a cloud of criminal indictment; she could be arrested if she were to enter the United States of America without diplomatic immunity to meet her husband, who is a US citizen.
As a non-resident Indian from Calcutta who has lived in New York for long, I was both amused and ashamed by the embarrassing antics of the government of India as it negotiated with the US justice system to extricate Khobragade from the imbroglio. Her claims of innocence were loud and insistent, but she found no support or sympathy from the members of the Indian-American community in the US. This was a pointed rebuke of the arrogance of senior government officials who believe they are entitled to preferential treatment in other countries simply because of their privileged ranks in India’s bureaucratic hierarchy. That is not how the American justice system works — it justly upholds the principle of equality of all before the law.
But the outrage orchestrated by India’s elite played well with the masses. The Lok Sabha elections are slated for this year, and the electoral success of the Aam Aadmi Party has made established political parties nervous. The last resort of these politicians was to project themselves as the guardians of national pride so as better exploit the vote bank.
This may make some Indians feel righteous even though the rights and dignity of the maid have been allegedly trampled upon. But in the US it shows Indians to be hypocrites. They appear to be comfortable with double standards. All Indians are apparently equal, but some Indians are more privileged than others especially when a maid has the temerity to question her powerful employer. As Khobragade settles behind her desk in South Block, she would need to introspect upon not only her visa fraud and allegations of exploitation but also the bad name earned by India in the US on account of her dubious actions.
Yours faithfully,
Debbir B. Dasgupta,
New York, US
Sir — In his article, “The Khobragade affair” (Jan 9), Mukul Kesavan says there is nothing “normal” about diplomatic immunity. His views are based on conclusions drawn from the Raymond Davis affair. Davis, an American security contractor, after killing two Pakistani citizens in Lahore, could manage to get diplomatic immunity with the help of the American authorities and was released from a Pakistani jail quite easily. Devyani Khobragade, on the other hand, was arrested, strip-searched and harassed on the charge of underpaying her housemaid. The US authorities have not shown any decency in dealing with a respectable diplomat from a friendly country.
As was reported, Davis shot dead two Pakistanis on a crowded street in Lahore and then made his way in a car that ran over and killed another man. The US invoked the Vienna Convention to claim diplomatic immunity for Davis. Surprisingly, Davis was not even listed as a diplomat at the time of the killings. Yet, the US authorities intervened through President Barack Obama to rescue him from the Pakistani jail.
Davis’s crime was far more grave. In his case, the law should have been allowed to take its own course. Khobragade’s crime was that her nanny, Sangeeta Richard, had been issued a visa on a false declaration made by the diplomat. The nanny was allegedly paid less than what was promised. The charges against her, if proved to be true, are not to be taken lightly. But they are neither as grievous as those against Davis.
According to the Indian media, Khobragade had full diplomatic immunity at the time of her arrest, and the US authorities knew this. The Indian media also claim that Khobragade’s housekeeper is actually, in effect, an Indian government employee under the Indian diplomat’s charge. The payment made to her by the diplomat cannot be the concern of the US legal system. Even if these arguments have loopholes, Khobragade’s respectable position as an Indian diplomat of high rank in the US cannot be ignored. The Indian authorities should have dealt with the matter in a far more sensitive manner.
The casual approach with which the US authorities have treated Khobragade mirrors the attitude of politicians on foreign trips. India has let itself be taken for granted by the US.
India must immediately start its own inquiry into the matter in order to get to the truth. Relying solely on the wisdom of the American legal system was a huge mistake. It may make us further vulnerable to the whims of other countries. The Vienna Convention allows a nation to waive diplomatic immunity if the crime committed by its representative is so egregious that justice would be served by a waiver. In the case of Davis, instead of allowing justice to prevail, the US invoked diplomatic immunity to protect a killer. This shows how biased the US’s standpoint is. One feels that the United Nations human rights commission must intervene in such matters. India, too, needs to learn a lesson from this episode. Foreign diplomats must be told about the laws of the country where they are posted. If such an episode is repeated, it will deeply tarnish India’s image in the eyes of the world.
Yours faithfully,
Benu Kumar Bose,
Calcutta
X-posted from understanding the US thread -ramana wrote:Letters in Telegraph, Kolkata
Letters to editor
Letters to Editor
Murky episode
Sir — The Khobragade affair began with a bang but ended with a whimper (“Devyani leaves US”, Jan 10). But we may not have yet seen the last episode of this riveting drama. The aggrieved IFS officer leaves not vindicated but under a cloud of criminal indictment; she could be arrested if she were to enter the United States of America without diplomatic immunity to meet her husband, who is a US citizen.
As a non-resident Indian from Calcutta who has lived in New York for long, I was both amused and ashamed by the embarrassing antics of the government of India as it negotiated with the US justice system to extricate Khobragade from the imbroglio. Her claims of innocence were loud and insistent, but she found no support or sympathy from the members of the Indian-American community in the US. This was a pointed rebuke of the arrogance of senior government officials who believe they are entitled to preferential treatment in other countries simply because of their privileged ranks in India’s bureaucratic hierarchy. That is not how the American justice system works — it justly upholds the principle of equality of all before the law.
But the outrage orchestrated by India’s elite played well with the masses. The Lok Sabha elections are slated for this year, and the electoral success of the Aam Aadmi Party has made established political parties nervous. The last resort of these politicians was to project themselves as the guardians of national pride so as better exploit the vote bank.
This may make some Indians feel righteous even though the rights and dignity of the maid have been allegedly trampled upon. But in the US it shows Indians to be hypocrites. They appear to be comfortable with double standards. All Indians are apparently equal, but some Indians are more privileged than others especially when a maid has the temerity to question her powerful employer. As Khobragade settles behind her desk in South Block, she would need to introspect upon not only her visa fraud and allegations of exploitation but also the bad name earned by India in the US on account of her dubious actions.
Yours faithfully,
Debbir B. Dasgupta,
Mahadevbhu, thanks for your reply, and honestly, there's no apology necessary.mahadevbhu wrote:I apologize for getting personal, but in your case , my CTRadar goes off when you construct a fanciful scenario or theory , connecting multiple seemingly unrelated threads together. Reading too much into a situation is called CTbaazi.Rudradev wrote:I'm curious. The words "conspiracy theory" seem to be thrown around in reckless abundance of late, especially by posters who tend to take a certain US centric view of the Khobragade matter. What exactly, in the view of these esteemed posters, qualifies an idea, a statement, or a collection of statements to fit the description of a "conspiracy theory"? Is there any benchmark, any given set of conditions that we on BRF have generally accepted as defining this category?
Or indeed, is the term "conspiracy theory"- like the terms "fascist" or "Communal"- being used to bulldoze and hegemonize discourse so that it excludes points of view, lines of argument, or even whole realms of thought that are somehow inconvenient to the people throwing it around? Specifically- is any attempt to connect dots between Khobragade's arrest and other recent events, any effort to explore how this affair fits into the broader construction of narratives (and the motive behind those narratives), any speculation that progresses an inch beyond the tunnel-vision of endlessly repeated minutiae that are ultra-specific to this case alone, being referred to as a "conspiracy theory" here?
If that is the case, maybe the more sincere participants of this "Strategic Issues" forum need to take a closer look at what the posters who incessantly cry "conspiracy theory" are doing to the quality of discourse here. And whether, in fact, the term is being employed simply as a more gentrified form of trolling.
Let us say Person B disagrees with this theory. In a discussion forum like BRF, Person B has two ways to approach the situation."The US government is planning to use Twitter to encourage and coordinate activism among Kashmiri separatists."
This is a good response, because it begins a healthy debate on the specific merits of Person A's theory. Theories should be debated, and survive or die based on their merits. Regardless of the outcome, everyone is a net gainer: Person A, Person B, and BRF itself for fostering a culture of thought where such a discussion can take place."If Raheel Khursheed is an undercover plant by the US government, why is he drawing attention to himself by making inflammatory remarks on Twitter? Should he not maintain a low profile until the opportune time comes to strike?"
This is the intellectually lazy option for Person B, because he doesn't have to apply any thought process of his own. All he is doing is labeling Person A's thought process as "CTbaazi" to discredit Person A's conclusions. He does not need to offer his own argument about the specific merits of the theory, or tax his own brain at all.You are overthinking it! You are reading too much into disconnected events and raising fanciful theories! This is CTbaazi!
On this positive note, can we stop referring ourselves using meaningless reference terms (third world) developed by the west?krisna wrote:FWIW---
India is the largest third world country with stable democracy. Has a good influence on a number of countries across the world of its kind-- I mean 3rd world types.
The stand taken by India however small it may look at towards the superpower has given some hope to these countries that one can still fight to some extent against first world.
India at least has mutus and Indics. Other third world countries have none of these issues as all are mutu equivalents.
Many folks of third world countries are all hooked onto uncle bandwagon.
Only Indians to a great extent have some degree of fight left (irrespective of sell out by the current govt)
enthusiastically seconded.RCase wrote:I propose the following to the BRF lexicon in honor of Anmol:
ANMAULED- A blindsiding, career threatening, mauling maneuver that leverages the use of technolgy to throw light on the nefarious social media/ on-line activities (especially of the TFTA). Changes front foot gains into sudden back foot reversals, resulting in a series of position switches and whitewashing attempts to control the damage of each individual post.
Source of inspiration:
AMOLED (active-matrix organic light-emitting diode) is a display technology for use in mobile devices and televisions.
An AMOLED display consists of an active matrix of OLED pixels that generate light (luminescence) upon electrical activation that have been deposited or integrated onto a thin-film-transistor (TFT) array, which functions as a series of switches to control the current flowing to each individual pixel.
Americans are entitled to wonder what the hell is going on. There is a one-word answer: elections.
Ms Khobragade is a Dalit, from a formerly “untouchable” sub-caste. Her ancestors swept the streets, but Ms Khobragade has made it all the way up to the top of Indian society.
Because of their long history of struggle against oppression, Dalits are hyper-sensitive to perceived humiliation, which inevitably reminds them of their lowly roots. And they have become a political force to reckon with, their “vote bank” amounting to 15 per cent of the population.
It is improbable that American officials will be dumb enough to admit it, but it would not be surprising if some malfeasance turned up: given the byzantine and sometimes predatory nature of Indian bureaucracy, Americans in New Delhi are no more likely to tell the local authorities the whole truth and nothing but the truth than their Indian counterparts in the US. American sanctimoniousness has really come round and bitten them on the ass.
There are no saints in the saga of Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat who was forced last week to leave America (and her American husband and kids) to escape a humiliating trial for allegedly underpaying her housekeeper, also an Indian.
But if there is a sinner here, it is not the diplomat or the housekeeper. It is the U.S. attorney for Manhattan, Preet Bharara, an Obama appointee, whose crusade will hurt those in whose name he launched it: foreign domestic help.
In a human life, at one point or another, we all shall come face to face with some fact or truth so absurd that it shall shake us to our very foundations and threaten our belief-system and sanctity of the structure we consider inviolable. How we deal with our resulting cognitive dissonance shall decide whether we follow the path of dharma or are content to hitch our ride to adharma (IOW status-quo). In non-dharmic status quo, no change in belief system is required because the architects of that belief system have structured it in such a way that only malfeasance, negativity, discord & ill will can win ultimately in such a system.ramana wrote:Another take would be when cognitive dissonance kicks in then disconcerting theories are termed CTbazi.
As humans we all have inherent beliefs and biases and are on one staedy course. Suddenly new facts come to light which challeng our baises and beliefs. We tend to discount the new facts or theories due to cognitive dissonance.
Rolf Dobelli has written a book on the ~100 different biases and fallacies that deter us from thinking clearly(or cognitive error).
I would urge all our folks to read up if possible.
For example since we know how the incident played out if we apply linear thinking (Newtonian-Descartes methodology) backwards we would be guilty of hindsight bias.
We would cherry pick (another bias) those items or facts that fit our story bias!
In the end a lion will end up looking like a kitty cat or vice versa.
Prasad wrote:Not to keep going on the same point but law enforcement isn't the perfectly legalistic and unbiased as many nris seem to think it is and constantly espouse. Case in point:http://gawker.com/man-who-endured-3-ene ... 1502645746
Indian government's chalta hai attitude towards law enforcement creates all sorts of confusion. The tax money Indian government failed to collect could have been used to help poor people increase protein in their diet or implement programs to feed the cows on the streets better.arun wrote:American Embassy School in eye of multi-crore tax scam : First Post
just recently the cops who beat a homeless man to death, were acquitted.Prasad wrote:Not to keep going on the same point but law enforcement isn't the perfectly legalistic and unbiased thing as many nris seem to think it is and constantly espouse. Case in point: http://gawker.com/man-who-endured-3-ene ... 1502645746
By doing this, they have abused the gratuitous tax exemption privilege given to them and violated local tax law. It is time to remove the tax exemption status. If it was to be given to some people, tax exemption should be only up to a limit (say $20K) set by Indian babus. They have to pay tax in India for any income and other benefits from school above that limit.pankajs wrote:The 16 American teachers in question are the spouses of American diplomats who enjoy tax exemption while the spouses are not entitled to tax exemption. The American diplomats (who enjoy tax exemption) have given their own salary account number for transmitting salaries of their spouses. Thus, two salaries and one account.