India-US Strategic News and Discussion

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 17 Jan 2014 09:23

Karan M wrote:
KrishnaK wrote:Some analysis of how NRIs also kept the desh afloat by remitting forex over the years must be analyzed. There was a time when gulf NRIs were one of our biggest source of foreign exchange. Unfortunately, no conspiracy that.
Where did I say conspiracy? And where did I say all NRIs? I made a pretty focused point on the benefits that mostly accrue to the US via this route. Looks like you have made it your raisin dieter as our neighbors put it, to be more American than the Americans themselves and defend them against all perceived slights, real or imagined.

The conspiracy part wasn't for you specifically. Your post says "students to the US most of whom don't come back". If that ain't NRIs who is eh ? This has nothing to do with the US and everything to do with Indians. Let's leave my raisin diet out of this for now. Surely there'll be plenty of opportunities for that later.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 17 Jan 2014 09:56

The School VISA fraud worked on 2 levels -
a) India had permitted 16 visa's for school teachers in Delhi and accorded tax exemption for them. The school was recruiting 'teacher couples' and recommending that the wife put her status as 'housewife' on visa application. The wife then worked illegally in the school and her salary was transferred to her husbands account, thus claiming tax exemption.
b) spouses of other diplomatic personal based in Delhi, Chennai etc (who are on a family/dependent/companion visa and not permitted to take up gainful employment within India, as per visa conditions, were moonlighting by working in the school, canteen and other non-diplomatic commercial activities etc. Once again their salaries were being transferred to their spouses bank account - again tax free. This is seen more in their consular offices out of Delhi

So the visa/tax fraud is not limited to the 16 wives of the school teachers but also numerous spouses of embassy staff.

Now that diplomatic privileges of the family members have been withdrawn (effective 24th Dec) all are liable for arrest

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 17 Jan 2014 09:57

just recently the cops who beat a homeless man to death, were acquitted.

He was schizophrenic, his last words were 'Dad they are killing me'.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 17 Jan 2014 10:11

Before Khobragade: notes from the 1981 US-India PNG’ing

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jan 2014 10:38

Nesoj wrote:American School in Delhi not run by Embassy: US
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/am ... 04736.html

That should make it easier to given the employees working there the full treatment instead of the cursory pat downs.

If the premises on which the school is run is claimed as embassy land that is again "for profit" on diplomatic compound and should be closed.
If the compound is not embassy land why then subject them to the full majesty of the Indian law. Cut water and electricity to start with and see how they like it. Throw the DDA/whatever corporation rule book at them and have it sealed ASAP.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Jan 2014 10:47

It's exactly the opposite... they are luring us into an escalation. Since it is not SD or US Gov, if we make a move, then their gameplan probably is, to widen their own counter-response scope. We should strictly limit to responding against SD and diplomats...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jan 2014 10:58

Apart from the fear expressed by JEM, I feel that retaliation for State Deptt.'s atrocious high-handed behaviour is still to come from MEA. Something similar to DK must happen to a US consul. If reciprocity is not established, we will be misconstrued by the Americans (reinforcing their poor impressions about us) and rightly so. Besides, Indians at large must know that GoI does not take such humiliations lightly. We should not lose track of that.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 17 Jan 2014 11:01

^^^^Wise words. However lets see how the DK indictment dismissal plays out. If Amirkhans wanna do a upyours-upyours kinda festival then they'll have that too.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Jan 2014 11:03

AES Mumbai paid huge taxes and penalty in fine after they lost case in HC. Same could be done and require them to register all employees with Govt and also to abide by fee rules and admission rules of Delhi Govt by taking a certain % of poor students.

US Spouses and Consulars are fair game now limiting only to those cases (un)covered under VCCR. And file visa fraud cases against all of them if found gulty but wait for arrest. Make them surrender passport and bail bonds. Aslo put hem on ECL. Don't announce muh in media.

Don't know if UPA has the will to do it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jan 2014 11:06

We try not to post blind links without a descriptor or why its posted. So keep that in mind.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 17 Jan 2014 11:10

JE Menon wrote:It's exactly the opposite... they are luring us into an escalation. Since it is not SD or US Gov, if we make a move, then their gameplan probably is, to widen their own counter-response scope. We should strictly limit to responding against SD and diplomats...

Their counter escalation will never reach the severity and volume of what we can throw at them. The reasons being:

a) they have a lot more activities here because of non-reciprocal goodies.
b) the number of their staff far exceeds ours in the US.
c) The fb revelations pointing to possible smuggling
d) The T Visa issues
e) Can go back to their attitude in 1971 vis-à-vis East Pakistan.

But hopefully it should not reach such an ugly stage. But if they push, we should shove back

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 17 Jan 2014 11:18

Looks like you didn't get JEM's point. The escalation will spread to non-consular things, as they have disassociated Embassy from American Embassy School. Then US will start showing rule book to TCS, INFY etc. It will take a different path altogether.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 17 Jan 2014 11:26

How true is the claim that it is not run by embassy?

American Embassy School Profile

The school is governed by a seven member Board of Governors, elected by the parents and the faculty for a two year term. In addition to the seven elected members, the American Ambassador appoints two non-voting members to the Board. Teacher, student and parent representatives also attend Board of Governors meetings.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 17 Jan 2014 11:28

where are our commie brethren (and their rabble rousers) when you need them most ??????

In case they are just another 'private school' (unconnected with the embassy), the the RTE Act is applicable to them.

Modern School, DPS etc should file a case against the Govt, querying why special privileges are given to that one school

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Jan 2014 11:31

Well they have already taken that route. Infy paid huge money to USG. Visa cap is there and charges are hiked. Besides many other action to reduce outsourcing to Bangalore crowd. But in return their own businesses are hurting unless they find another cheap labour market, Possibly China with whom they already run a huge bill.

India has already faced and is till facing sanctions. It is target of concerted efforts by developed countries led by US to stymie its tech development efforts and access to high tech equipments.

However if US chooses to go in non linear escalatory route they might end up loosing access to huge market besides whatever little goodwill they are left with in India and I am sure NRI/PIO/OCI would also understand how it hurts them. MUTUs may become PNG in their adopted land for being reckless.

AES school should be closed down pronto. Legal action should be initiated for violating laws. penalty should be charged and they should be allowed to go to the same Dehli High Court for remedy.

As for SOP that should be reserved for Consular officials and their spouses for visa and tax fraud besides other charges as a reciprocal action .

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Jan 2014 11:33

Correct. My point is that, such an escalation outside of diplomatic sphere must first come from their side... Our ladder is much higher on the diplomatic side. Theirs is not. Hence the tactic to get us into the sphere outside of diplomatic response; plus that way, their lobby capability increases exponentially - or so they think. They don't understand us, which is weird in many ways - because on several levels we are very much like them in our approach to things...but our intuitive understanding of human nature is miles ahead.

This is not played out yet, but much of the rest of the game is likely to be behind the scenes.

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Jan 2014 11:43

JE Menon wrote:Correct. My point is that, such an escalation outside of diplomatic sphere must first come from their side... Our ladder is much higher on the diplomatic side. Theirs is not. Hence the tactic to get us into the sphere outside of diplomatic response; plus that way, their lobby capability increases exponentially - or so they think. They don't understand us, which is weird in many ways - because on several levels we are very much like them in our approach to things...but our intuitive understanding of human nature is miles ahead.

This is not played out yet, but much of the rest of the game is likely to be behind the scenes.

+100.

The name of the game is perception - to be perceived on being in the "right" (which gives rights to preach) while screwing the other.

We should argue that AES is part of the embassy operations and keep the focus on the US embassy and not get it shifted out to commercial space.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Jan 2014 11:47

Regarding the school, they appear to be tying themselves in knots - for no apparent reason.

All they had to do, from the start, was simply to say (in nicer language probably, but maybe in similar language too, who knows): "Hey guys, sorry about what happened to Devyani. That idiot prosecutor of ours got caught up in what he thought was a politically smart move and overdid it; meanwhile, two morons at our own embassy got gamed by one of your usual sly insinuators back in Delhi... yeah, yeah, you know the type; what to do, they were taken in by the "oppressed by the high born" line. Take DK back quietly, and we'll get those morons out even before her if you want". On our side, the response may have come thusly: "For fuc(ks sake... OK you take care of your side, we'll take care of our side... and shut that grandstanding attorney's mouth on this one... you can keep SK and her family. Maybe she can work for the Mays now, and pose with Paco; let's nip this in the bud and get back to bloody business shall we..."

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 17 Jan 2014 11:47

There has already been retaliation at low levels. India will learn about it soon enough.
But yes the USA & India don't understand each other very well as can be seen from the pages of bewilderment/media posted here. I doubt they ever will.
The only thing America understands in money. The thought of of one human underpaying another animates Americans. The thought of a respectable lady being man handled by a pandu animates Indians.
There is no common ground here. Probably never will be.
In the mean time business will become a bit more complicated.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 17 Jan 2014 11:50

If someone opens a madrassa named American Embassy Madrassa or a brothel as American Embassy Prostitutes, will US SD allow it to run that too next to an big, active, American Embassy?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jan 2014 12:01

I would not be surprised if the principal and certain key people in that school develop health issues and quietly emplane for home, leaving acting in-charge into the hands of diplomatic personnel with some immunity.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 17 Jan 2014 12:01

shyam wrote:Looks like you didn't get JEM's point. The escalation will spread to non-consular things, as they have disassociated Embassy from American Embassy School. Then US will start showing rule book to TCS, INFY etc. It will take a different path altogether.

Well Shyam.

We should not believe what they say. When, in this episode have they proved true? A Grand Jury's indictment? Which, according to me is a civilised version of a lynching party.

And why the dhoti shiver? (if it is that.)

And hitting us in other areas will hurt them as much. And if it means hitting our ITES sector, and as an IT guy, I can tell you that there is so much to be done in India itself; that a lot of their work is done offshore including high end stuff like Operating Systems which are proprietary on fundu Mainframes. Not to forget a debt ridden economy which shuts down their government. Can they afford that?

All a result of their unfortunate overconfidence leading to trillions flushed down in their sad hallucination that they can afford to be the world's policemen and pushing us around as second class citizens of the world.

If they do this to us, the Chinese grip on their short hairs would automatically become that much more tighter, economically.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 17 Jan 2014 12:08

Theo_Fidel wrote:The thought of of one human underpaying another animates Americans.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 17 Jan 2014 12:13

Theo_Fidel wrote:There has already been retaliation at low levels. India will learn about it soon enough.

Aiyaa,
Will you be gracious enough to share with us what these are or will we learn it soon enough?

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 17 Jan 2014 12:13

pearls of wisdom sirjee....pearls of wisdom.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 17 Jan 2014 12:17

rajanb-saar, I was just decoding JEM's point, as I thought you missed it. Other than that I don't have much to disagree with you. BTW, escalation can go in many unexpected directions. For example, they can arrest some VPs of TCS/INFY etc. accusing them of visa/tax norm violation. It won't be difficult to find issues if you throw strict rule book at anyone. In return India can show similar places to some MUTU Indians representing MNCs in India. In reality GOTUS won't care if few of Indian origin folks spend couple of weeks in Indian jail, except that it will be used for maximum publicity.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Jan 2014 12:19

>>The thought of of one human underpaying another animates Americans.

With Mexicans and other Latin Americans too, or only with Indians? "Americans" is very broad brush in this context. Which Americans do you mean?

"Retaliation" from the US side is primarily only about "denial" - Denial of technology, trade terms, student access, etc. We get no charity. Everything is paid for. Denial cuts both ways. For what? They need to think about it. We didn't start this.

habal · Post by **habal** » 17 Jan 2014 12:28

Theo_Fidel wrote:There has already been retaliation at low levels. India will learn about it soon enough.
But yes the USA & India don't understand each other very well as can be seen from the pages of bewilderment/media posted here. I doubt they ever will.
The only thing America understands in money. The thought of of one human underpaying another animates Americans. The thought of a respectable lady being man handled by a pandu animates Indians.
There is no common ground here. Probably never will be.
In the mean time business will become a bit more complicated.

retaliation can only be at low levels, because at high levels all businesses are controlled by Yehudis including control of federal reserve. What is it that anglo-saxon americans control except for their loud mouths. It is not for nothing, India has strong links with Israel.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 17 Jan 2014 12:34

retaliation for what?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 17 Jan 2014 12:39

shyam wrote:rajanb-saar, I was just decoding JEM's point, as I thought you missed it. Other than that I don't have much to disagree with you. BTW, escalation can go in many unexpected directions. For example, they can arrest some VPs of TCS/INFY etc. accusing them of visa/tax norm violation. It won't be difficult to find issues if you throw strict rule book at anyone. In return India can show similar places to some MUTU Indians representing MNCs in India. In reality GOTUS won't care if few of Indian origin folks spend couple of weeks in Indian jail, except that it will be used for maximum publicity.

Shyam, please don't call me saar/sir or ji

Oh yes it will. But piskologically, we have been known to be crafty etc. etc. Whereas they have potrayed themselves as saviours of the world. Bullied others. Killed innocents. Attacked the wrong country (Iraq), etc. etc.

As some posters have alluded, what is happening is giving hope to smaller countries that they can stand up too.

The double standards, the Anmauling that they have got, all will lead to loss of face in various quarters.

We should not be in a hurry to go headlong into this. But, weigh our options while keeping the pressure on. And I am sure we can reach a position that is a) honourable to Bharat b) Open a new diplomatic "excesses" front after thorough affirmation that they are wrong c) Keep the commercial part of it out of this situation; and d)That they better not tangle with us again on frivolous grounds.

And be gracious too, within limits. Not as Mutus or Macaulayites. The rotten egg on their face, smellier than our cow populated streets, is already there.

Left its mark, so to speak.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 17 Jan 2014 13:02

So what happens if the Prosecutor's Office/another wing of the USG slaps a charge on another consular staff AND processes him/her just like they did with DK?

The audacity and the "standing your ground" will win lots of support in America and for the USG and that's all that matters. Don't care if some SD murga has to get ruffled up in a smelly Turd World police station. He might even get a career boost after the terrible ordeal! What would our response be?

How exactly do we play chicken?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Jan 2014 13:04

nothing will come of these 'investigations' - once the DK case is dismissed, the tax investigations in india will die down and everything will come back to normal

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 17 Jan 2014 13:12

Anand K wrote:So what happens if the Prosecutor's Office/another wing of the USG slaps a charge on another consular staff AND processes him/her just like they did with DK?

The audacity and the "standing your ground" will win lots of support in America and for the USG and that's all that matters. Don't care if some SD murga has to get ruffled up in a smelly Turd World police station. He might even get a career boost after the terrible ordeal! What would our response be?

How exactly do we play chicken?

Anand, what you are asking is for the endgame.

Right now, we have lost one piece on the chessboard. They have lost two Mays.

The diplomatic way would be to that the game seems to end in a draw. Meaning SDREs are ==

All about equality, isn't it?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jan 2014 13:34

Nesoj wrote:where are our commie brethren (and their rabble rousers) when you need them most ??????

Most Commie brothers and sisters do not have the same vigour they had two decades back for obvious reasons.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jan 2014 13:40

rajanb wrote:We should not be in a hurry to go headlong into this. But, weigh our options while keeping the pressure on. And I am sure we can reach a position that is a) honourable to Bharat b) Open a new diplomatic "excesses" front after thorough affirmation that they are wrong c) Keep the commercial part of it out of this situation; and d)That they better not tangle with us again on frivolous grounds.

I think that the GoI is simply playing the same game. It is collecting all details relentlessly and by keeping a constant pressure. Having been bitten a few times, it has woken up now, I guess. Whether it will use the data so collected or not depends upon how things evolve. Let us play the guessing game. It is a fine opportunity to play this sort of game even as we aspire to assume our rightful position in the high table.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 17 Jan 2014 14:24

rajanb wrote:The diplomatic way would be to that the game seems to end in a draw. Meaning SDREs are ==

All about equality, isn't it?

Right saar. That is all Indians wanted from the start.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 17 Jan 2014 14:38

>>So what happens if the Prosecutor's Office/another wing of the USG slaps a charge on another consular staff AND processes him/her just like they did with DK?

Unlikely

...

But let's say they do. There is plenty of room for us to manoeuvre within the ambit of the US diplomatic community in India, I'm sure.

If they want to expand it outside the bounds of diplomatic tit for tat, it's their call. Just as it was their call to cuff and strip Devyani and make a deliberate public spectacle of it.

What we do know is that they have now formally said the Embassy School is not part of the Embassy. This we will keep for later reference. We probably won't move further on that issue now.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Jan 2014 14:39

I am not sure from where retaliation part is creeping in the discourse. It is always about following rule and laws and diplomatic conventions as agreed upon. US seems to have argued that Rule following is important and in US everyone follows rules , laws and SOP or at least sworn to follow that, uphold that. VCCR or VCDR are secondary and US laws are primary on US soil. Right.

SO we are only insisting that they follow rule and we make sure that they follow it to the dot. As for reciprocal benefits , that is as decided by VCCR/VCDR and as observed by both countries. If we think US did not follow it in some respect to that extent their personnel having VCCR/VCDR would be exposed on Indian soil. They are sure to agree that SOP and rule of law would be followed and that is Indian made laws on Indian soil.

The talk of infy/tcs and sanctions are red herring. They have done all that and much more. We couldn't care less.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 17 Jan 2014 14:42

+100 ^^^^^

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 17 Jan 2014 14:50

They have expelled DK after she was accepted on UN posting in US. US G required her departure and in turn GOI required departure of foul mouth May and his wifey tailed along with him. So India acted strictly as per convention. As regards Dk treatment and charge-sheet arrest etc India has not done reciprocation. That action is still open. Game has moved beyond DK issue the company is involved in it. US is playing a much deeper game. Probably it is gaming for NaMo as future PM of India.

School will have to follow laws and face notices in slow motion, irrespective of their connection with USE. Spouses and consular staff and diplomatic personnel who are found in tax fraud and visa fraud will be for keep at opportune time

The only caveat is UPA2 led by ineffectual head.