Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion
Posted: 17 Jan 2014 22:40
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An idea which I typed as a draft few days back after reading above artecal(penned in Nov 2013 in Foreign Policy magazine) plainly acknowleding the role of Human Rights issues in encroaching the Soverginity of non western countries (like India). Maybe DK incident was precipitated with similar "deep thinking" by folks in SD on India's Human rights issues.The End of India's Sovereignty Hawks? - it’s time for the world’s largest democracy to start promoting human rights.
BY Sumit Ganguly , Eswaran Sridharan
NOVEMBER 7, 2013
With the exception of China, Russia, and perhaps Brazil, few regional powers of any consequence are as protective of their sovereignty as India. Its policymakers have expressed reservations about the emergent norm of the "responsibility to protect"; it abstained from voting on the 1998 Rome Statute, which led to the creation of the International Criminal Court, arguing that such a body would infringe on national sovereignty; it has mostly shied away from attempts to promote democracy abroad. That needs to change -- at least at the regional level, to start -- if trust, peace, and meaningful cooperation are to be established in South Asia, all of which are in the interests of both India and its neighbors.
All of India's neighbors are struggling with the challenges of liberalism and the tasks of forging representative and inclusive governance in diverse societies. Sri Lanka, for example, is rapidly turning into an illiberal democracy in which the Tamil minority is systematically marginalized, and it still refuses to acknowledge the anti-Tamil pogrom that swept through Colombo in 1983. Pakistan has, at best, made a tenuous transition to democracy, and its military still bears the taint of the East Pakistan genocide of 1971. In Bangladesh, Hindus and Buddhists face routine discrimination. And Nepal has only the trappings of an electoral democracy after the overthrow of its anachronistic monarchy and confrontation with a Maoist insurgency.
Admittedly, as a sprawling, post-colonial society riven with ethnic and class cleavages, India has seen more than its fair share of human rights violations, and despite the existence of an independent judiciary, its ability to mete out justice has been wanting. It failed to prosecute those who directed the pogrom in New Delhi against the Sikh population that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi in 1984. And only last year did it succeed in incarcerating one of the key perpetrators of the Gujarat pogrom of February 2002 -- Mayaben Kodnani, a Bharatiya Janata Party politician -- for her role in instigating anti-Muslim mobs.
India's uneven performance on human rights, however, should not prevent it from advocating for their protection and for inclusive democracy in its neighborhood and beyond. Few countries that promote human rights abroad enjoy an unblemished record at home, whether historical or contemporary. And India's limitations, while real, are not so outlandish as to prevent it from embracing a vigorous human rights and democracy agenda.
India has addressed its shortcomings through institutional measures, albeit fitfully. When faced with much international as well as domestic criticism while dealing with an ethno-religious insurgency in the disputed state of Jammu and Kashmir, it created the National Human Rights Commission in 1993. Some critics were quick to dismiss this new entity as a toothless body at best and a sop to Cerberus at worst. However, to their surprise and to the delight of others, the commission quickly acquired a degree of organizational autonomy and sought to extend its writ.
Not content with simply addressing complaints of human rights violations on the part of security forces, the commission soon started to probe prison conditions, child labor abuses, and the like. It has no enforcement powers, so its capacity to effect change is limited. However, it does possess the ability to "name and shame," thereby deterring would-be abusers of human rights. Although a culture of rights and their consistent enforcement has yet to take hold across every sector of Indian society, an effort to create such a climate is clearly under way. The process will be long, arduous, and fraught with setbacks, but that tortured course seems to be a well-worn pathway for states as they seek to enshrine such "irreducible minimums" -- to borrow an evocative phrase from Canadian human rights activist and political theorist Michael Ignatieff.
Strong Indian support for human rights and democracy in South Asia would reduce regional tensions and build cooperation. Comparatively speaking, India has followed a nation-building strategy at home that is inclusive and accommodative in religious, linguistic, ethnic, and cultural terms. In contrast to others in its neighborhood -- in which there are four formally Islamic states (Pakistan, Bangladesh, the Maldives, and Afghanistan), until recently a Hindu state (Nepal), a Buddhist state (Bhutan), and an ethno-linguistic-religious majoritarian and unitary state (Sinhalese-Buddhist Sri Lanka) -- India is a secular, federal, multilingual, and multicultural state that institutionalizes power sharing among its various groups. Its constitutional and political experience, warts and all, can offer invaluable lessons in managing a diverse society.
Given South Asia's history of partition and secession (the 1947 Partition into India and Pakistan, the 1971 secession of Bangladesh, the 30-year civil war in Sri Lanka), all rooted in real or feared majoritarianism, inclusive and accommodative democracy and commitments to human rights are vital to cultivate the trust necessary to resolve regional conflicts and integrate minorities. This is because, in South Asia, perceptions of the intentions of neighboring states toward one's own country are shaped by the way that minorities that might be viewed as one's kinfolk are treated in that country. Such "kin" minorities -- religious, linguistic, and ethnic -- abound in a region of ethnic overlaps. Hence, it is in the region's interest, and in India's interest as the region's hub, to promote inclusive democracy and human rights as a way of calming suspicions, turning around hostile attitudes, and moving toward regional integration.
There are a few signs that India's traditional antipathy toward democracy promotion is shifting. For example, in 2012 and 2013, India voted against Sri Lanka at the U.N. Human Rights Council, censuring Colombo for its failure to address charges of rampant human rights violations in the sanguinary end to its civil war in 2009. Furthermore, at a global level, it voted at the U.N. Security Council to impose the initial sanctions on Libya. But a broader push is needed.
Perhaps it is time to rethink the exclusion of domestic issues from the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation, the only regional forum designed to promote integration in South Asia, and move toward a normative regime that entrenches inclusive democracy, human and minority rights, and regional autonomy or federalism for minority regions. Even if these are not made membership criteria, as democracy is for the European Union, and even if there is no surrender of sovereignty over human rights to a supranational regional court, as in the Council of Europe, it is time to start thinking of a regional normative regime on democracy that builds trust about the intentions of each state toward kin minorities and hence toward neighboring states.
Given its institutional choices and social movements, India's political leadership should no longer seek to take refuge in tired shibboleths about sovereignty and instead willingly embrace the emerging consensus that states indeed have duties beyond borders. As a state that rarely tires of stressing its democratic credentials at home, it should now demonstrate that it can act on the courage of its convictions. To that end, it needs to take forceful stands when it witnesses the flagrant violation of human rights both in its own neighborhood and beyond, and promote a normative regime of inclusive democracy for the region.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... man_rights
chaanakya wrote:I am not sure from where retaliation part is creeping in the discourse. It is always about following rule and laws and diplomatic conventions as agreed upon. US seems to have argued that Rule following is important and in US everyone follows rules , laws and SOP or at least sworn to follow that, uphold that. VCCR or VCDR are secondary and US laws are primary on US soil. Right.
SO we are only insisting that they follow rule and we make sure that they follow it to the dot. As for reciprocal benefits , that is as decided by VCCR/VCDR and as observed by both countries. If we think US did not follow it in some respect to that extent their personnel having VCCR/VCDR would be exposed on Indian soil. They are sure to agree that SOP and rule of law would be followed and that is Indian made laws on Indian soil.
The talk of infy/tcs and sanctions are red herring. They have done all that and much more. We couldn't care less.
Nice find, especially the bit about the "Darjeeling Tea Party".pankajs wrote:The ugly American-Indian
Bose dada, tum kitne bhole ho yaar. Itne time se america main reh kar, you must know thisRaja Bose wrote:After this DK live in maid affair, I fully expect all stay at home moms in the great United States to sue their husbands in court for bonded labor and not getting paid at least minimum wages in cash.
Agreed, but we probably won't do this, unless there is an egregious event that is visible to the aam desi public. Till then, most desi folks would question why are issuing these reports. This will change only when the discourse on the MSM changes regarding usage of NGOs to subvert our systems. Currently, people like Udayakumar are glorified for their obduracy, and not many question his motives. I personally think that we should do this, but without the drama associated with the Chinese human rights reports. By quietly planting policy papers in various journals, we can start low key and avoid public blowback, yet firing a first shot on this road. People in the know will get the message.Lilo wrote:And these together are ganging up on a turd world (especially India) as China (One point five world) and Russia (Second world) are countering the perception game well through their Independent and well received media ( especially in Russians case). They even give out their own Human rights reports annually on Western world .
This is a must, no matter the issue at hand. Democracies don't have to be obliging friends and hand over accused citizens (even one way). I am reminded of the scene in the Dark Knight movie, where Morgan Freeman says "the Chinese will never extradite one of their own". What a powerful statement - I wish we commanded the same sentiment!Lilo wrote:(in this regard no Indian should ever be extradited due to the animalization of their prisoners through a deliberate policy)
Take a moment to think about what these people have been doingd) Top unbiased journalism - to combat WaPo etc.
It is required that these show the story in a different light. Every narrative is controlled by CNN and WaPo, and we all know they survive on selective leaks by WH staffers. Put them on the defensive and watch the fun. Will take around 10 years to gain credibility but will help.
These days when anything really nasty comes up where I don't trust the See Enn Enn propaganda - e.g., the attempt to get into a war in Syria - I go to this site to get a balanced view. Impressive.Fact-based in-depth news
Al Jazeera is old stuff (minions like Qatar cant sustain such a big mouth for long) their limitations got exposed and got whooped by Russia Today(RT) etc in the months leading to Syrian escalation .UlanBatori wrote:Take a moment to think about what these people have been doingd) Top unbiased journalism - to combat WaPo etc.
It is required that these show the story in a different light. Every narrative is controlled by CNN and WaPo, and we all know they survive on selective leaks by WH staffers. Put them on the defensive and watch the fun. Will take around 10 years to gain credibility but will help.
They claim a simple slogan:No endorsement implied, just pointing out that they are successful and probably have intent just like yours, to be able to present their pov. The more impressive thing is that they control their anger very very well, you have to look deep to see any trace of their biases. And they don't compromise on technical quality.Fact-based in-depth news
Compare to the relatively pathetic state of desi Major Portals such as Rediff (looks like a railway station magazine stand now) and NewsPapers (ToiLet, Hundi) despite the long head start and "free press" and all the "even our chote-chote bacche bhi angreji mein baat kar sakte hai, pukka Brish*t accent se"
Hmm! U mean Empty - ANMOLIZED cavities!Purged
I meant, without going the divorce route. Keep the hubby bleeding by a 1000 cuts instead of chopping his mijjile off in one lop.mahadevbhu wrote:Bose dada, tum kitne bhole ho yaar. Itne time se america main reh kar, you must know thisRaja Bose wrote:After this DK live in maid affair, I fully expect all stay at home moms in the great United States to sue their husbands in court for bonded labor and not getting paid at least minimum wages in cash.
This facility is already present in america, and wimmen take full advantage of it.
It's called "I'm taking him to the cleaners a.k.a Divorce court"
I still can't believe BJP is not making this into a media circus. DK episode and years of tax fraud....I just don't get it. Hope NaMo is not thinking that the election is in the bag. BJP has a golden opportunity finish Gandis once and for all. What the heck are they waiting for?UlanBatori wrote:?...
No wonder the MMS govt is quiet - now that this scam is exposed, are they going to let these turds off without paying back taxes, interest and penalties and serving time for deliberate tax fraud? If so it becomes an election issue.
Only people seeking the truth and uncovering corruption can do the real damage. It will be authenticchanakyaa wrote: I still can't believe BJP is not making this into a media circus. DK episode and years of tax fraud....I just don't get it. Hope NaMo is not thinking that the election is in the bag. BJP has a golden opportunity finish Gandis once and for all. What the heck are they waiting for?
Does it not highlight how precious Indian market to them? Mays are irrelevant when it comes mercantile benefit to them. 20 years ago this would have been cause of joy but today it is not. But, that is just my opinion...ramana wrote:The return of the Mays to US shows the power shift of the global information age. US is the acknowledged "Master of all that is seen" with military, economic and media power on their side and yet had to recall the diplomats.
What started as a diplomatic Goliath punishing an errant David has turned reverse.
Have some mercy on mere mortals,conspirator guru.Acharya wrote:Only people seeking the truth and uncovering corruption can do the real damage. It will be authentic
Most likely it would have been empty!UlanBatori wrote:The Mays were withdrawn, imo, because the scope of their misadventures began to sink in. Had they been allowed to be arrested and their mental cavities searched, they may have revealed where the predjudice and orders came from. So they had to be taken away. The revelations about their FB pages just meant that they are probably fired.
Excellent post !UlanBatori wrote:Having read this thread with deep interest, I am respectfully submitting the following summary that came through the email for your kind consideration. Please provide factual corrections (and the facts to correct them). It is intended for use in educating, well.. ppl who may be able to make a "positive difference".
What the US media says, or what you think they say is irrelevant. Let's discuss weird. Desi emigrants, whether students or otherwise, do so mostly for lack of better opportunities. India isn't doing anybody a favour, least of all herself, by letting all those people emigrate. For a country like India to have emigrant repatriation as a major source of foreign exchange (at one point in time) to then go and sayKaran M wrote:I made a specific point about how the US benefits from Indian emigration as versus the rubbish being put out by US media from time to time that the US somehow does India a favour by taking poorly paid Indian laborers etc & secondly, it is a key business benefit for the US education system, as versus the oft quoted business benefits India gets from the US by selling them stuff.KrishnaK wrote:The conspiracy part wasn't for you specifically. Your post says "students to the US most of whom don't come back". If that ain't NRIs who is eh ?
In response, you come back with this weird statement about NRIs and the Gulf. Whats the relevance apart from a reflexive desire to protect the US & twist the argument in process?
is not weird at all. Let's say you do go ahead and analyze and the contribution ends up being epic. What then ? There quite a bit of news out there that acknowledges that already. If I were the US I'd belet's analyze how we're doing you a favour by letting all those smart people emigrate to your country
Do enlighten me, tere analysis ko lekar kya ukhadega tu ?Ah sure, everything to do with "Indians", nothing to do with the US at all, eh? Nothing to do with its impact on US-India ties either..
Let me phrase this differently. My fondness for the US is pretty open. It isn't something I've tried to hide. You'll get lots of other chances to take that swipe. This one is self defeating.In the above post (and many others btw - your posting record speaks for itself), you demonstrate your single track belief system re: US uber alles. Go ahead, that's your prerogative, but it will get pointed out, especially when that sort of reflexive response muddles up the points being made by others.Let's leave my raisin diet out of this for now. Surely there'll be plenty of opportunities for that later.
In so far as DK issue is concerned , its not a question of enforcing our laws but ensuring that other countries abide by Vienna conventions and that we follow reciprocal relations /benefits in international diplomatic transactions.V_Raman wrote:We have come to the old conclusion again: If only we enforced our laws, our enemies will not have a chance. Our problem is internal onlee...
New York: A US judge here has granted Manhattan's top prosecutor Preet Bharara time till January 31 to file his opposition to the motion submitted by Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade seeking dismissal of the indictment against her on visa fraud charges.
Khobragade's lawyer Daniel Arshack had on January 14 filed a 13-page motion in US District Court on 39-year-old diplomat's behalf seeking dismissal of the indictment, termination of conditions of her bail and of any "open" arrest warrants or requests for her extradition over the charges.
India-born Bharara wrote to US District Judge Shira Scheindlin on Friday seeking January 31 as the deadline to file the government's opposition brief and permission that the response be of up to 25 pages in length.
..
Bharara said that the additional time and increased length are "necessary to thoroughly address the complex legal issues and extensive relevant facts raised by the defendant's motion."
I think BJP is doing right by not inserting themselves into the issue as it involves foreign relations. It will give handle to US or other detractors to say actions are all political. As far as GOI is concerned , outcome is finely balanced and action is quite finetuned till now.chanakyaa wrote:I still can't believe BJP is not making this into a media circus. DK episode and years of tax fraud....I just don't get it. Hope NaMo is not thinking that the election is in the bag. BJP has a golden opportunity finish Gandis once and for all. What the heck are they waiting for?UlanBatori wrote:?...
No wonder the MMS govt is quiet - now that this scam is exposed, are they going to let these turds off without paying back taxes, interest and penalties and serving time for deliberate tax fraud? If so it becomes an election issue.