Indian Response to Terrorism

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 03 Dec 2008 07:24

Steps

Long Term
1. Joint Ops to eliminate Pakistani Nukes.
2. Reintegration of POK.
3. End of Pakistan as a nation state.

Mid Term
4. A national commitment to eliminate terror in the neighborhood enshrined in law.
5. A counter terror organization with the means and mandate to strike anywhere, by law.
6. A list of targets.
7. Disproportionate response to every terror attack we know originates in Pakistan.
8. Build national memory and awareness of Pakistani terror.

Short-term
9. Hand all wanted by India terrorists over (the excuse to pick a fight).
10. Block all traffic into Karachi port till Pakistan hands the 20 over (the fight).
11. Eliminate LeT and JeM headquarters and acquire the means to do it (the fight).
12. Notify the end of the Indus Water Treaty (India is in a state of war with the nation state of pakistan).
13. End of Article 370.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 07:32

on an optimistic note (Rajesh A ji) I hear from my sources in Nai Delli, India is negotiating with TSP government when and where to respond to the recent attacks on Mumbai, Our brilliant NSA Narayanan is leading a delegation to sort out logistics for that attack. It appears in principal TSP has agreed to attacks by India but India is begging for a safe conduct for the raiding party, this is where the seasoned diplomat that Naryanan is, has to put all his acumen to use and come back again with flying colors like the way he did to J13 123 and many more recent assignments. Not to mention his brilliant role in Malegoan attacks to bolster Rajmata chances for victory in elections.

One good thing observers note is that Rajmata SG has full faith in the conversion of Narayanan to her cause, It is confirmed that Naryanan has direct access to SG and is said to discuss things in intimate detail said an anonymous source on condition of anonymity.

So some sparks will fly if not from GOI atleast from yet another terror attack on India, noted KS the pre eminent Indian startegic guru and semi senile think tanks consultant.

More to follow soon. watch this space

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 03 Dec 2008 07:37

So..Zaradri on Larry King basically laughed at India.

So what is Sonia Gandhi going to do for us Indians after all Indians gave India to her?

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 03 Dec 2008 07:43

First it was freedom fighters, now it's stateless actors.
Why are we f**king wasting time here trying to figure out how stuck together the Army is with Zara-de-ri? Who has the button?
Push it already, goddamn it.

S

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 07:49

Hope the right rev Amber G is upset with Zaradari laughing at India and SG.

But I reluctantly concede Zaradari has a valid point, Pakistan did not import its leaders, we did and better be at the laughing stock.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 03 Dec 2008 08:14

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews

Speaking in London, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday that American and British citizens had been "singled out" for attack by the assailants. Officials in Washington, meanwhile, said they had independently corroborated Indian intelligence that links the attacks to Lashkar-i-Taiba, a Pakistan-based extremist group with roots in the disputed Kashmir region.

"There are real indications that point toward [Lashkar], and they are based on more than what the Indians have made public," said a U.S. counterterrorism official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The official said, however, that there was no evidence that the Pakistani government had played a role in the attacks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2008 08:27

As long as Indian elite worry about Paki nukes we will never respond. Pakis understand this and read the undercurrent of fear.

We have to hit Pakistan and be ready for nuclear war and make sure that Pakistanis ready themselves for nuclear retaliation.

Forget "denuking" Pakistan. Waste of time. The best denuking is to make them use it and finish off all Pakis cities.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 03 Dec 2008 08:45

Shiv ji, how much of that jingoistic attitude exists in our aam junta? We have decades of narration on the horrors of war and nuclear weapons, I think that will work against full scale war.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 03 Dec 2008 08:49

It's all up to the Cabinet and the Chiefs of the Armed Services. If the Cabinet gives the order, and the Chiefs are able to do it, that's it. What the JNU grad and prof think are of no consequence.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 03 Dec 2008 08:55

shiv wrote:We have to hit Pakistan and be ready for nuclear war and make sure that Pakistanis ready themselves for nuclear retaliation.

Forget "denuking" Pakistan. Waste of time. The best denuking is to make them use it and finish off all Pakis cities.

Well, if its nuclear war, then we better strike first. And no point in stopping at the cities, we don't want to deal with all of the rural population do we? This may be a weak link as we likely have a small number of weapons.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 08:57

There was a report that the US had warned India prior to the attack, so corroboration is psyops.

However, such open moves, should start exposing those within PA/ISI.

Hmmm. PA vs. PA?

Z and MMS to get next N Peace Prize for resolving a problem without using nukes.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 03 Dec 2008 09:01

shiv wrote:As long as Indian elite worry about Paki nukes we will never respond. Pakis understand this and read the undercurrent of fear.

We have to hit Pakistan and be ready for nuclear war and make sure that Pakistanis ready themselves for nuclear retaliation.

Forget "denuking" Pakistan. Waste of time. The best denuking is to make them use it and finish off all Pakis cities.

Dr Shiv,
I think we need not wait for them to use it. A devastating first strike , is the need of the hour. Why suffer any loss at all?They will retaliate if they can, if at all. World does not grieve their loss. They are responsible for this mess.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 03 Dec 2008 09:03

UPA soft on terror for political reasons

For now, all politicians are making the right cooperative noises. But this is expected to change soon as the BJP, Left and Congress have very divergent views on how to deal with terror. Professor Madhav Nalapat says that over the past four years, the UPA government has forced the security apparatus to follow a "politically correct approach" that is backfiring. "Some sensitive localities have not been entered, searched, etc., for years. And now I fear things are running out of control," he says. Some intelligence reports have maintained there are 100,000 fidayeen waiting in India for attack orders. And Nalapat says, "It could take 10-20 years to end the problem unless we get serious."

From Businessworld. Not giving link because the rest of the article gives cock-and-bull reasons for Pakistani terrorism: Iraq War, Ayodhya, Afghanistan, etc.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2008 09:11

prashanth wrote:
shiv wrote:As long as Indian elite worry about Paki nukes we will never respond. Pakis understand this and read the undercurrent of fear.

We have to hit Pakistan and be ready for nuclear war and make sure that Pakistanis ready themselves for nuclear retaliation.

Forget "denuking" Pakistan. Waste of time. The best denuking is to make them use it and finish off all Pakis cities.
Dr Shiv,
I think we need not wait for them to use it. A devastating first strike , is the need of the hour. Why suffer any loss at all?They will retaliate if they can, if at all. World does not grieve their loss. They are responsible for this mess.

Fair enough. This is a very attractive option.

Piskologically speaking, Pakistanis have been indocrtinated to hate Indians from about 1973 onwards. The oldest indoctrinated Pakis are in their 30s - not yet old enough to be generals.

But what we see today are the earliest effects of that indoctrination. Having said that, the hate that Pakistanis are showing is creating a counter hatred among Indians. We are teaching our children about Pakistan - but our children will not be in power for at least 30 to 50 years.

I suspect that Pakistani hatred will spill over into nuclear war before that.

If denuking has to be attempted - it has to be done now. In the next 5 years at the most. Better than that is to bring Pakistan down - rather than search for a needle in a haystack. I don't see the political will to nuke Pakistan. Hey there is no political will to even blame Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2008 09:17

Airavat wrote:UPA soft on terror for political reasons

For now, all politicians are making the right cooperative noises. But this is expected to change soon as the BJP, Left and Congress have very divergent views on how to deal with terror. Professor Madhav Nalapat says that over the past four years, the UPA government has forced the security apparatus to follow a "politically correct approach" that is backfiring. "Some sensitive localities have not been entered, searched, etc., for years. And now I fear things are running out of control," he says. Some intelligence reports have maintained there are 100,000 fidayeen waiting in India for attack orders. And Nalapat says, "It could take 10-20 years to end the problem unless we get serious."

From Businessworld. Not giving link because the rest of the article gives cock-and-bull reasons for Pakistani terrorism: Iraq War, Ayodhya, Afghanistan, etc.

Just as I said.

After the shedding of tears is done the Congress party will find that it will have to somehow blame the BJP.

When the Congress blames the BJP - it will have to speak of Hindu terror and Muslim grievances

And guess what Pakistan blames India for? You guessed it - Hindu terror and Muslim grievances.

So you find the current ruling party in India having to sing the same song as the Pakistanis who are prime culprits in terrorism in India.

India is the only country in which politicians join enemy nations in rhetoric and aims to bring down an opposition party.

Pakistan's statements about Hindu terror and Muslim grievances are an asset for some political parties in India. They react with anger when this is pointed out. Naturally.

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 03 Dec 2008 09:18

Very true samuel.

Some also suggest that we should think about how much TSP can deliver. We have done that for so long. They do no understand rational reasoning. They just mistake it for weakness and inaction and continue to the next phase. Lets change direction here. Lets demand a lot more here with an unreasonable deadline and if they dont deliver, we escalate with limited strikes on POK camps. Then remind them we are reloading for the next strike, if our demands are not met within another unreasonable deadline. TSP will not start a war right now. They cannot sustain a war for a week if they have to beg with saudi even for fuel. We need to stop thinking about our limitations and think about TSP's limitations...and how we can exploit it... thats the only way to deal with TSP. Every other rational way of dealing with them has failed in my opinion.

samuel wrote:The US is in a bind. This happened to it, and it went around uprooting a whole neighborhood
(on far more flimsy nonevidence).

What can America ask India to NOT do, now?
Since this is the transition period, unless McCain wants to rake some internal issues up, the modus operandi
must be largely silence, which is what I am seeing.

But if India does what the US did, then we know what that could do in Afghanistan.
So, another reason for silence or conflicting responses.

There is I believe a third way that starts with the coming together of US and India in the management
of Pakistan. Until the US can jump that gap and India does not display impatience and does not create
conditions for the US to jump that gap, there will be dead silence, hoping it will all go away.

But it won't, I hope. It has to burst out in the open now.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 03 Dec 2008 09:32

The numbers are daunting. Yes, we are looking at a few million trained terrorists, and the madarssas are cranking them out as fast they can lobotomise them, 20000 per year. How to neutralize them all? There aren't enough missiles to take them all out. Going in with Air Force jets, or Special Forces invites large casualties and death by torture for several people on our side. Armored invasion risks major battles, thousands dead and maimed. Plus the odd risk of nuclear conflagration in all our cities.

But this is defeatist thinking. The right approach is to use just enough force to crack Pakistan's structure wide open. Once the central Army power is broken, Pakistan is 6 or more warring tribal entities. The millions of terrorists now become tribal enemies, and are kept busy decimating each other.

It is quite wrong to believe that if the Pak Army has to pull out of Waziristan, the Taliban will win in Afghanistan. The Pak Army has never been much help in those parts, anyway.

What does it take to crack Pakistan open? I say, strikes on the Pak Military's command and control in 'Pindi and Islamabad.

This should be undertaken by India first.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2008 09:37

narayanan wrote:The numbers are daunting. Yes, we are looking at a few million trained terrorists, and the madarssas are cranking them out as fast they can lobotomise them, 20000 per year. How to neutralize them all? There aren't enough missiles to take them all out. Going in with Air Force jets, or Special Forces invites large casualties and death by torture for several people on our side. Armored invasion risks major battles, thousands dead and maimed. Plus the odd risk of nuclear conflagration in all our cities.

But this is defeatist thinking. The right approach is to use just enough force to crack Pakistan's structure wide open. Once the central Army power is broken, Pakistan is 6 or more warring tribal entities. The millions of terrorists now become tribal enemies, and are kept busy decimating each other.

What does it take to crack Pakistan open? I say, strikes on the Pak Military's command and control in 'Pindi and Islamabad.

This should be undertaken by India first.

N3 the good news is that it is easier to lobotomize than infiltrate. The lobotomized are building up in Pakistan.

The bad news is that our leaders have not opened their eyes to what is happening in Pakistan. When I was much younger I used o think that people of my generation would be better. The people of my generation are approaching the top and I see very little signs of change and understanding among India's top leadership. And I watch younger people say 'Our generation wil do better" and think that they too might grow older and realise too late that not enopugh has been done to recognise the cancer growing in Pakistan.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 03 Dec 2008 09:47

LOOONg time ago is said the way to destory Bakiland is to destroy few Pakjabi districts which are the main source of recruitment for PA. Eliminate them and the PA loose its future terrorists. Kill the Napaki womb i.e Pakjab and no ugly babby get produced .
For the time being we should engage them in air over Kahsmir and Punjab and shoot down few Flying Sitaras.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 03 Dec 2008 09:49

As a matter of fact Pakistan's military headquarter was hit in February this year by Paki tribal militants. It should not be too difficult a target for us either.

We can send in some special op people dressed as radical muslims. We can use the boats just like Pakis. They can do their hit and run and be ready for pickup at the right time and right place. There are plenty of shoulder fire weapons that will do the trick.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 03 Dec 2008 09:51

shiv wrote: Fair enough. This is a very attractive option.

Piskologically speaking, Pakistanis have been indocrtinated to hate Indians from about 1973 onwards. The oldest indoctrinated Pakis are in their 30s - not yet old enough to be generals.

But what we see today are the earliest effects of that indoctrination. Having said that, the hate that Pakistanis are showing is creating a counter hatred among Indians. We are teaching our children about Pakistan - but our children will not be in power for at least 30 to 50 years.

I suspect that Pakistani hatred will spill over into nuclear war before that.

Dr. Shiv,
I agree. It will take about two three decades for the anti paki generation in India to come to power. To wait for that long is detrimental for India.

If denuking has to be attempted - it has to be done now. In the next 5 years at the most. Better than that is to bring Pakistan down - rather than search for a needle in a haystack.

Very true. They are at their lowest now, militarily and economically. And they have even offered us a pretext to do so.

I don't see the political will to nuke Pakistan. Hey there is no political will to even blame Pakistan.

Till now, yes. But not anymore. No,not after what has happened. Now on, Hon. Fmr PM Indira Gandhi will be the role model. Anti paki sentiment will be an asset for political parties. And their success in elections will depend remarkably on how much anti paki they are, mark my words. The only thing that is stopping( rather delaying )
outright military assault is the worry of its consequences on our economy.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Dec 2008 09:58

What TSP conducted in 2001 and now was a first strike. Each time India blinked. Next time within 5 years or so, TSP will use a radiological bomb in Delhi with medical nuclear waste, like Co60, and or reactor grade U238 wrapped around with lots of RDX. They will strike the capitol complex, train/metro stations, key flyovers and points of exits in the NCR. A half-dozen bums will probably kill between 200-300 people in the initial blast, but will create panic, fear and pandemonium that will result in several hundred more deaths. In the meantime, Delhi will have a massive ecological mess, the dispersion of alpha and beta particles in the air, to those thousands who breathe them, will cause much higher incidences of leukemia and malignant cancers in the long term.

There is no other choice at this time than a full-out war on TSP. It will start with conventional forces and then quickly become nuclear. The only way peace can be obtained is that there must be the annihilation of 10-13% of TSP's population. All of us know that is not going to happen, soon enough business and industry will realize it too and knowing the next attack is inevitable, there is no reason to do business in India.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Dec 2008 10:06

John Snow wrote:One good thing observers note is that Rajmata SG has full faith in the conversion of Narayanan to her cause, It is confirmed that Naryanan has direct access to SG and is said to discuss things in intimate detail said an anonymous source on condition of anonymity.

John Snow garu, what do you mean by 'conversion' ? He was a political appointee to the most sensitive post of the land and that wouldn't have happened if there was no faith in his loyalty to the family.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 03 Dec 2008 10:07

Gentlemen,

Because our government will not do anything in its infinite wisdom, I am here to tell you why using cosmic numerological reasoning.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... 1&p=580636
Posted in full because other thread will die.
I wish you good night in advance...
S

-----------------------
I am gaming this:

I built a matrix:

Code: Select all

a =
   C   I   P   U
C  3   0   3   2
I  1   1   0   2
P  4   0   0   2
U  3   2   2   4

C = China, I = India, P = Pakistan, U = USA
score 0 -4.
0 in location row,col means row maintains poor relationship with col,
4 means excellent relationship.

For the diagonal C,C and I,I and P,P and U,U, relationship with self is internal stability.

These are qualitative numbers based on "perception," please cook matrices up like this if you like, of your own (to get genuine responses from the matrix oracle).

We'll first make it symmetric (don't have to, but ok). Then, we'll convert matrix to probabilities by generating a doubly stochastic matrix (rows sum to 1, cols sum to 1). The result is:

Code: Select all

z =

   0.22248   0.14014   0.47141   0.16597
   0.14014   0.39559   0.18010   0.28417
   0.47141   0.18010   0.13518   0.21330
   0.16597   0.28417   0.21330   0.33656

In the matrix z, higher numbers are better, more probable.

What does this say?
If countries keep doing to each other in the way of the relationship in matrix a,
then:

India and US will emerge or stay as strong, stable nation-states.
China and Pak will go unstable, Pak's the basket case.

Notice that India started with a poor stability and china had great stability.
So there some genuine cosmic flux here

The closest relationship will be between China and Pakistan.
Trumps everything else, they sustain each other.

The relationship between USA to India is slightly better than USA to Pakistan, but much better than USA to China (though the relationship with China starts out better).

India and China have the worst relationship, and not much worse than India and Pakistan.

Bottom line: US doesn't have to do squat differently wrt India and Pak to keep up its interests (stability), but you needed Samuel's numerology to tell you that

S

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 03 Dec 2008 10:08

Until we solve Pakistan problem, there is no future for us. All out war with Pakistan is a must. There is no other way. Once the Pakistan problem is solved, we can focus on building economy. I support any option but "do nothing".

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Dec 2008 10:09

What are we talking about hitting pakistan when we have allowed the jehadis to wipe out local Hindus from a part of India? We need to fight pakis in India first, by forcibly resettling the Kashmir Valley with Indians and changing the demographics. That will plant a stake in the heart of pakistan and tell them everything they need to know about what is coming. Create another state in the middle of the Valley if need be and arm it to the teeth like a kibbutz. Make serious noises about pakis getting out of PoK too or else.

Forget about hitting pakistan before we wipe out pakistan from Indian territory. Our leaders have been neutralized by stupidity, fear and greed. General Basmati will be in Dilli tomorrow and we will throw up at the snivelling, grovelling netas making asses of themselves and embarassing the nation instead of reading out the riot act in one voice.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 03 Dec 2008 10:12

From MJA. With the usual Hindu terrorism bit but hard hitting.

'Pakistan will have to pay a heavy price'

December 02, 2008 16:13 IST
Last Updated: December 02, 2008 19:24 IST
M J Akbar is one of India's best-known journalists and commentators, someone with a deep insight into the Indian people and their mindset. In this first-person, as-told-to piece, Akbar discusses the Mumbai attacks and their relevance for India.
Many people forget that India is a tough nation. Toothless leaders have turned India into a soft nation. People forget that India has fought back Muslim terrorism in Kashmir; Sikh terrorism in Punjab, Christian terrorism in Nagaland and Hindu terrorism in Assam, and amongst the Naxalites [Images].

We have had everything thrown at the Indian nation State. Still, we have stood up. The people of India have shown the courage and ability to believe in their nation and to fight back. But the completely impotent leadership of five years have turned a tough country into a soft State.
I am very sad. I keep feeling that if they protect India as they protect their leaders -- whether it is Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] or Congress President Sonia Gandhi [Images] -- I think I would be safe. Today, India's leaders are safe and India is in panic.

On what India's response should be:

India's proper reaction would be possible if we understand the extent of the disease.

If the disease is cancer, you can't apply band aid. After making a complete mess of security issues for five years by asking Shivraj Patil [Images] to go finally we may have a home minister who doesn't comb his hair and change his clothes. But we want something more than that. If it is cancer, we need chemotherapy, a much more serious exercise. It needs a legislative and executive framework. It needs political mobilisation. People are numbed.

The Indian people have no leadership. You have a prime minister. Did you see him when he addressed the nation? Nobody knew if he was addressing the nation or having a cup of tea?

He looked serious, but he didn't talk to us about our anger and about our anguish. I think this administration is tone deaf to the anguish of the people. They just cannot understand what the people are going through. They just don't understand our pain or our anger. The most important thing is that, perhaps, we have politicised not only the instruments of the State like the police but we have also politicised the understanding of the nature of the problem.
I think the very first thing to do is to ensure security so that it prevents the next attack. If any attack takes place under someones job should go. Don't come to me with alibis.

On the terrorists getting local support:

I am an Indian Muslim and I am very proud of both, being an Indian and a Muslim. I do not see any contradictions. This is my land and I have nowhere else to go.

But can I say because I am an Indian Muslim that no Indian Muslim is involved? Can you, because you are a Hindu, say that no Hindu is involved? We have to behave like Indians first. Not as a Muslim or as a Hindu first. Because we need Hindu votes and Muslim votes and because this government thinks that it needs Muslim votes so it has been in complete denial.

Do you think that these people came across from Pakistan and had no support in Mumbai?

It is not possible. It was a huge operation. Ten people hit nine places and you killed nine of them. You want to say that they went from place to place? Who knows some of them must have slipped away to create new sleeper cells to hit us six months later.

They are hiding things. I would like to believe that there was an underworld connection. Because, Karachi and Mumbai are also linked by drug smuggling. The culture of criminals is aggression. It comes naturally to them. It is not easy for you and I to become aggressive, however angry we are. It does not come naturally to us. These are people who are trained psychologically in aggression. They have no respect for the State. They have no love for the country. And they have no respect for authority.

Why? Because the only face of authority is the corrupt policeman. The criminal gives money in the morning and money in the evening. Why should he have respect for somebody he gives bribes to? For the guy from the underworld his understanding of the Indian State and authority is corruption. He has no patriotism to stop him. Why would he not join hands with the terrorists? In any case, he belongs to another world. We have not even begun to address and discuss this.

On the Pakistan factor

I am tired of giving Pakistan a long rope on some excuse or the other. Everybody is saying this will happen if we do this, that will happen if we do this. Our relations with Pakistan will go, then, let them go. What has our relations with Pakistan brought us except violence and terror? Why should we be in charge of saving Pakistan? For what? Every time they turn around and they say they want evidence. Now, finally we have evidence.

I have been an editor for 35 years from the age of 23. From that time on, since the days of General Zia-ul Haq, I have been hearing 'Pakistan is asking for evidence'. We asked for withdrawal of their support to the movement for Khalistan, they said, 'Oh, we don't know anything about it.' On Kashmir, they kept repeating where is the evidence. Benazir Bhutto [Images] came, she asked for evidence. Nawaz Sharif came, he asked for evidence. I think Pervez Musharraf [Images] asked for less evidence. Now again, they are asking for evidence.

There is a terrorist in Mumbai, captured and arrested. How much more evidence do you want? If what he is saying is not evidence, then how can you get more evidence?

{it has always been this simple and infact its the GoI which wants pakistan to parrot that "show me the evidence" part. It provides a nice fig leaf for inaction and to go back to their chai samosas and money minting. And also do not forget the American complicity in eliminating carefully collected evidence}

This government is in its 11th hour. Now they will bluff the people to protect their votes. There is no time left for them. The agony of departure will be hard from this government.

On the reaction in the West

The US and Britain have a vested interest in telling India to look within. Why? When Americans die then they can send their air force 7,000 miles and bomb every country to smithereens. But when Indians die, they tell us no, no, you must be patient. You must act like a swami and a yogi. Why? Is an American life more precious than an Indian life? Why should we keep listening to them? But we have a government that keeps listening to them all the time. We don't get tough.

{American life being more important to them is afterall their right...but wanting us to bleed and tut tuting us about our response is down right ugly, cause it betrays their intent to see a weaked India. Not too strong, and (not too weak either but thats a different thing). The US and UK are guilty of murder! If they want to make any attempt to make amends, please start by stopping your mollycoddling of Pakistan and any attempt to preach restraint, please!. }

The last time we got tough was after the attack on Parliament. We took some tough actions under Operation Parakram and then there was a certain lull. Three years ago, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was able to tell President George W Bush [Images] that there are no terrorists amongst Indian Muslims. That means that lull continued.

Pakistan must be made to realise that it will have to pay a heavy price. Not necessarily through war, but a heavy price will have to be paid in loss in trade, in cancellation of orders and other engagements. They should pay a heavy price in terms of people to people relations. I am not saying you can freeze a relationship to death, but the message must go out that if there is a crime there will be a penalty. You just can't get away with it.

Let the Pakistan government cooperate with us. But look at how the Pakistan government has buckled down and we are sitting here whimpering.

They want to send some lowly officers to India. For what? Even Pakistan is treating the Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi government with total contempt. They know how weak it is.

Delink Hindu-Muslim relations and Pakistan

Look, you must not confuse the Pakistan issue with the Indian Muslims issue. Their so-called alienation or their economic deprivation is not linked to the issue of Pakistan.

Indian Muslims have nothing to do with Pakistan. They have absolutely no sympathy for Pakistan. They know that Pakistan was the biggest mistake committed in the history of Indian Muslims. They know it. You can ask anyone in Baroda, Bihar or Mumbai. They know how they are suffering the backlash of all the consequences of cross-border terrorism.

Today, they fear retribution from the government, they fear retribution from popular disenchantment and anger. They feel helpless. They feel afraid.

We must understand finally that it is not so much the 'local people', it is the local underworld that is involved in anti-India activities. In 1993, who were involved in terrorism? The underworld. Why have you not done anything about it? The State turns a blind eye to the police and corruption. I don't know how many readers smoke hashish and other stuff, but I am accusing them of cross-border terrorism. Drugs come to India from Afghanistan via Karachi.

What we can do as individuals

If whoever is responsible for protecting the nation fails, then he or she should not be allowed to continue in power. That is the toughest and sharpest message we can give. You can tell that you may be a soft State, but we are a hard people and we are hard voters.

We are not going to forgive you for your lies and deception and for your waffling. How many blasts do we need to understand that? When Jaipur [Images], Ahmedabad [Images], Mumbai and Delhi [Images] happened no one who was genuinely guilty was caught.

We have to understand now that corruption has eaten away vitals of this nation. It is the biggest danger to the security of India. It is not just the case of some spectrum being sold to someone by some minister in. Everyone who is corrupt get out!

It Is a failure all around. We have to be extremely practical and pragmatic. There is great deal to be depressed about as an Indian. Frankly speaking, I feel very angry and upset. I am never upset by the behaviour of our enemies. I am only upset by the betrayal of those I trust.

M J Akbar, editor-in-chief, Covert magazine, spoke to Sheela Bhatt

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 03 Dec 2008 10:13

As I said Victor, I am up for any option but "do nothing".

But it is necessary to hit Paki military brass. Trust me on that one.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 03 Dec 2008 10:47

Since the Pakistani terror strike took several months to plan and prepare, the response too must be given enough time for planning and preparation. Even a naval blockade will require time, money, and resources to keep the choke-hold on Pakistan for the 6-8 months needed to starve them into submission.

In the meantime internal security requires a tough approach on terror modules; The NDA government between 1998-2004 busted nearly 300 of such terror modules, operated by Pakistan and Bangladesh with local support.

The UPA needs to find another way of winning elections; dividing Indians into communities will leave us open for outside intervention. Remove the first-past-the-post system and let winning candidates get 50% of the votes cast. Or right-thinking members in this alliance, which is probably going to lose the next general elections, should opt for the NDA for their own political future.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 03 Dec 2008 10:55

Airavat ji, thats the problem. Planning and gaming a counter to a major terror act by TSP should have been done so many times by now and in so many ways, that we should have been ready at t+1 hours after proving to ourselves the paki hand behind the event.

Why do need to plan for it now. Current geo-pol imperatives may require fine tuning of the response, but in all there should have been a tome dictating our response. Sad.

For starters, I am with Kiran, top paki generals have to be taken out, start with those on deputation to the ISI. If the pigs squeal, tut tut....we are both victims of terror onlee.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Dec 2008 11:00

India may have had its 9/11, but only Pakistan has had a 12/16 (1971). There is still enough time to give them a great repeat anniversary on 12/16/2008. I pray and hope that it happens.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 03 Dec 2008 11:19

pradeepe wrote:Planning and gaming a counter to a major terror act by TSP should have been done so many times by now...

For starters, I am with Kiran, top paki generals have to be taken out, start with those on deputation to the ISI. If the pigs squeal, tut tut....we are both victims of terror onlee.

It depends on how you want them to be taken out, thorugh overt strikes or covert ops?

The armed forces are ready to carry out the first, with the attendant consequences which we should be prepared to absorb. The latter method will take time to execute but with little consequence.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 03 Dec 2008 11:48

NRao wrote:There you have it. Some things in Islam are OK.

Mumbai attacks: Terrorists took cocaine to stay awake during assault

Terrorists who battled Indian commandos for 60-hours last week relied on cocaine and other stimulants to stay awake for the duration of the fight

By Damien McElroy in Mumbai
Last Updated: 12:54PM GMT 02 Dec 2008
...
"We found injections containing traces of cocaine and LSD left behind by the terrorists and later found drugs in their blood," said one official.

This Damien McElroy sounds like a DDM. No one in his right mind would take cocaine and LSD for something like this. For one thing, they cause hallucinations and blurry vision. Amphetamines (speed) would be the drug of choice for situations like this, as it increases alertness and speeds up one's reaction time.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 03 Dec 2008 12:45

Not a single politician who stood for nation. Not single soul whom worlds biggest democracy elected. Cheap intellectuals commies are behaving like petty thieves. PM showed his face reluctantly on so called address to the nation which was inaudible and pathetic to watch. Sonia Gandhi........no body knows where is she. Our ex home minister feels light and free of any guilt. We have no ambassador at UN, in US,UK, Brussels. Defense minister is unheard off and FM is talking for Defense Ministry..........." military action is out of question".....thus shutting up any options. Never seen such coward politicians.
Please give me name of a single politician who stood out.............for the first time in my life I hate democracy.

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 03 Dec 2008 14:13

rsingh wrote:Not a single politician who stood for nation. Not single soul whom worlds biggest democracy elected. Cheap intellectuals commies are behaving like petty thieves. PM showed his face reluctantly on so called address to the nation which was inaudible and pathetic to watch. Sonia Gandhi........no body knows where is she. Our ex home minister feels light and free of any guilt. We have no ambassador at UN, in US,UK, Brussels. Defense minister is unheard off and FM is talking for Defense Ministry..........." military action is out of question".....thus shutting up any options. Never seen such coward politicians.
Please give me name of a single politician who stood out.............for the first time in my life I hate democracy.

Boss, the current generation of politicians will not change. They are all conditioned by decades, sometimes generations, of pandering to vote banks, party politics, everything except the national interest.

If something is to change, people who can put the national interest first - like some on this forum - need to be prepared to get into politics.

This is not unprecedented. In the early years after independence, a lot of our politicians (including both Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru) were highly-educated lawyers, and gave up flourishing practices to become politicians. In those days, the law was one of the most respectable careers possible, a bit like being an IT professional these days. In those days, some highly-educated professionals gave up the comforts of their professions and got into the rough-and-tumble of politics. Not many do that today - too many of our current politicians came up via the organizing-goonda route.

If we really want to make a difference, some of us have to be prepared to give up our salaried existences, and join electoral politics.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 14:20

There is a need to decrease USA's dependence on Pakistan for supply route for US forces in Afghanistan and for Pakistani Forces on the Durand Line for support, if India hopes to get US help to destroy Pakistan.

After 7 years of NATO/US deployment in Afghanistan, the war has reached a stalemate. Maybe it is time for USA to rethink its strategy in Afghanistan.

o Make the enemy visible: As long as NATO tries to hold on to land in the Pushtun Areas, the Taliban will fight a guerrilla war, and NATO will be at a disadvantage. It is far better to let Taliban take over Pushtun Areas and form the administration in the towns and villages. Then USA can go into guerrilla mode and attack the Taliban, who will become more visible as they will have to take care of administration. In towns, where one can have more effective humint resources, it is much easier to track down the enemy. Also the drones and fighter jets can be used more effectively.

o Contain the enemy: This is one area in which the interests of all regional players (even Pakistan's) coincide. We all, i.e. India, Russia, Iran, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, NATO and USA need to bolster the defenses of the non-Pushtun ethnic groups in Afghanistan, in which the Northern Alliance (now as Afghanistan Army) forms the nucleus. They need training, organization, weaponry (both heavy and light). These should really form the defenses of the region.

o Penetrate the enemy: Both US and India need a voice within the Taliban, some tribes that fight with the Taliban but have strong Pushtun nationalist roots, who abhor the Durand Line, and would want to cooperate with the tribes on the Eastern side of the Durand Line, to form an independent nation of Pushtunistan. Pakistan should not be able to exert influence of this very strong faction. We need such on both sides of the Durand Line. In return, we can see to it, that these tribes remain the strongest within the Taliban, and Pushtunistan.

o Redefine pressure on the enemy: Of course one goal of the Taliban should be to capture all Pushtun lands and unite them. Another goal should be that we should challenge the consolidation of those gains, and not the conquering of those lands. Landowners are far more susceptible to blackmail, who have something to lose, than fighting the landless, who have everything to gain. Only when the Taliban are landowners in Afghanistan, can one pressurize them to cough up OBL and AAZ.

o Give self more space: Afghanistan has a long held policy, that the Durand Line is illegitimate. The UN should also come to this view. That would mean, that Pakistani sovereignty in FATA will become disputed. One the one it will allow, US to carry out its drone attacks in FATA as and when they like (this time proven legally), on the other hand it will put pressure on Pakistan to show, that it really controls the lands through cooperation with NATO.

o Ensure alternative supply lines: USA and NATO should give the thought some real consideration, whether it will not be a better idea, to be supplied through Northern Areas, under Indian control, or some independent Baluchistan. It will be a far more durable arrangement, especially if the area is secured by Indian forces and Indian control.

It should begin in the UNSC or ICJ, where the legitimacy of Durand Line is contested, and India should provide Afghanistan with all help India can. UK's help here can be useful.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 14:56

harbans ji,

Re: Top 20 Terrorists List to Pakistan.

As we are finding out now, Zardari has stated that those on the list will be tried in Pakistan and only after India provides a full-proof evidence dossier.

I think your theory, that Zardari will try to get 3-4 Terrorists for India from ISI's paws was based on the assumption, that Zardari has a set of political constraints, which make him responsive to Americans' and Indians' wishes, and that in general he will be willing to do India's bidding.

Zardari has no such compunctions. He will do what helps him consolidate his position in Pakistan. At the moment it seems, that that would be the danger of Indian retaliation, which is bringing all Pakistanis together, and the second is the fact that he has been co-opted by the ISI and PA now, and is willing to protect them and their assets. The wedge, policy makers in India may have dreamed of driving within the Pakistani Establishment, seems to be a no-winner, and will not work. One cannot expect lipstick to fight against the fists.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Dec 2008 15:12

We should not go to war; on our borders; we should prepare for war; but instead of crossing over start hitting them where it hurts -- repeatedly.

We could win a war without fighting during Parakaram; this time the only "problem" is FATA -- we should pour in troops in Afghanistan to stabilize it.

Let a Russia, US and India joint exp force in Afganistan... time to cut the crap about the great game.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 03 Dec 2008 15:23

India should give RAW atleast Rs. 10,000 crore rupees to encourage freedom fighters in Pakistan. Also India should mobilize forces on its border with Pakistan and force them to draw away from their north-west borders. Benefits:-

1. Costs as to proportion of GDP will be 5 times higher for Pakistan
2. Pakistan will stop getting US re-imbursement of Billions of Dollars for doing nothing
3. RAW will find it easier to encourage freedom movements in Pakistan when forces are withdrawn from internal security duties.
4. India can launch a punishing strike say in Jan-Feb to send the message home, weaken Pakistan ruling establishment and give additional space to RAW in Paki North West

Note Sayeed Naqvi is the only journo who has said that India should have retaliated on 27th November itself rather than crying & begging before the world. I think comments of MJ Akbar & Naqvi shows that Indian Muslims hate and detest Pakis more than even RSS. Perhaps a Muslim PM would have had more courage. We have failed with a Sikh PM, imagine

(cross post)

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 03 Dec 2008 15:34

Note also:- There is desperate feeling in general congress cadre, that political leadership must attack Pakistan or they will be wiped out in General elections. They know that posturing like Parakaram will have no benefits. I have personally talked with some senior people and they (feel-want-hope-know) that something will be done. Personally I think that nothing is going to happen.