Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

brihaspati wrote:Akalam bhai,
not wanting to lay on a mine for you! But as you state and reveal perhaps subconsciously and very clearly, and for most of current BD Muslims, the question of religion is even more thorny isn't it? The fundamental dilemma is even more powerful for BD than for Muslims in Pak.

How to reconcile the fact that BD could not have existed if the two-nation theory was invalid - to create Pak in the first place, and the fact that BD could not have existed if the two nation theory was valid because then Bengali nationalism would be invalid?
brihaspati ji,

Yes, its a logical falacy. I pointed this out earlier at another forum, that:

Bangladesh = two nation theory partition * (logical and) Bengali nationalism independence/separation

So Bengali nationalism in Bangladesh is a children of two nation theory partition, because there would be no Bengali nationalism unless there was East Pakistan. So this Bengali nationalism thing is actually an oxymoron, the reality is that Eastern wing of Pakistan was tired of rule by the Western wing, specially Pakistani Punjabi's, so they needed some excuse for this separation, Bengali Nationalism was just a readily available convenient excuse.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Acharya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:How to reconcile the fact that BD could not have existed if the two-nation theory was invalid - to create Pak in the first place, and the fact that BD could not have existed if the two nation theory was valid because then Bengali nationalism would be invalid?

First thing is to accept that they are not a nation. They are part of the sub continent with shared history going back to thousands of years ago.

They cannot be a nation based on Bengali language nor based on the religion.
Now you are getting to the heart of the matter, the Muslim elite of the time that wanted Partition were certainly committing blunder and the British Crown went along with this, there is no other place in the world where countries were made up from thin air like this and probably never will be again, at least not in such large scale (Sykes Picot agreement that broke up Ottoman empire after WW I among the British and French was another example).

As soon as I started looking into this history, it dawned on me quite early that Partition and creation of Pakistan was a monumental mistake for all concerned. But once it was done, things took its own dynamics and created new realities (Bengali language based nationalism being one of them) from that point based on the result of Partition. So in my mind, I already accepted that, I am from a part of the sub-continent, which is now called Bangladesh because of the idiocy of those generations. Legally I have to accept those borders, but logically I don't have to and I do not. But most people in Bangladesh are not like me I suppose, they are now quite enamored with things like "Mukti-juddho" (freedom fight) "Shwadhinata" (independence) which has become part of Bangladeshi consciousness and culture and love for the "Amar Sonar Bangla, Ami Tomay Valobashi" (My Golden Bengal, I love thee) songs. I guess all nation states are like corporations, they need their origin myth and a constant flaunting of that myth to justify its existence. Pakistanyat in Pakistan is probably just such a meaningless concept. India's border and shape was obviously not of their own choosing, it was imposed and forced fed on its leader and population.

When I see the situation in Kashmir, it reminds me of all this tragedy and the idiocy of it all. Going a little off topic here, repealing of Article 370 may seem like a touchy double edge sword, while it is necessary to bring a demographic balance and secure the land from future separatist adventure, just as Han Chinese are doing it in Tibet and Xinjiang and Bangladeshi's have done in Chakma area, but it could also mean that claims will be raised that Muslim fears of possible Hindu misrule was justified during partition. In the end, it might be necessary to repeal Art. 370, because of economic growth and creation of jobs in that area, and it will probably create a better situation as the current heavy security presence there can be reduced over time, since a more mixed population will negate the need for any unusual security presence and thus removing the reason for the current protest. I also have this belief that population living in a mixed demographic area from an early age are naturally exposed to many variations of faith and life style and thus become more tolerant and cosmopolitan in their views, which used to be the case in pre-partition India, but unfortunately took the wrong turn in post partition sub-continent creating more negative dynamics. As a small microcosm, Kashmir valley fell to a similar fate with recent expulsion of Pandits, Sikhs etc. I guess someone from Kashmiri leadership will have to convince their populace to accept this apparent bitter pill for a better future and a way out of the current situation, as the status quo is not working. If it ensures a better economic, education and job situation for all Kashmiri's (unlike what is happening in Xinjiang and Tibet), I don't see why they should object. Being an outsider, I am wading into internal matters of India without permission, sorry if it offends or upset anyone.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RajeshA »

AKalam ji,

thank you for taking the time to respond to the post.

I found the post quite enlightening about your thinking. There are many threads, that one could pick up about your PoV. I'll come to that some other time.

When I think of Bangladesh, I see one has a unique country with a unique opportunity. The only other country that had a similar opportunity was Iran, and they bungled it. What is so unique?

Well for one thing, Bangladesh, as a Muslim majority country, has both an almost homogeneous ethnic make-up and a strong rooting in an old civilization. Most other Muslims of Central Asia and West Asia have had to either take the Arab identity completely (the original Muslim ethnic identity), or had to borrow the customs and culture of another nobler ethnic group (e.g. Central Asian Turks taking the Persian customs) or had to subdue their ethnic identity under their Islamic identity (e.g. Iran after 1979, or Pakistan since 1947). Indonesia and Malaysia too, are losing their original culture and leaning towards the Arab customs, perhaps because the original culture too had outside influences and was not rooted in one's own lands.

Bangladesh however has its original civilization sitting right next to it, and the danger that it succumbs to an outright alienation from its roots is less.

This unique opportunity for Bangladesh to carve out a version of Islam, which exists in harmony with Bangladesh's original culture, should not be dismissed out of hand. Unlike Pakistan which had to subsume the various ethnic identities to some Islam, Bangladesh is under no such pressure. Also unlike Pakistan, which is intent on proving that it is a different nation than India and as such denies itself the history of the region, which is not Islamic in origin, Bangladesh is under no such pressure.

So Bangladesh can embrace its ethnicity and the history of its ethnicity as part of an age old civilization, like no other country. It has the freedom to mold Islam to its needs, to the needs of being a modern nation, with the will to develop and prosper. It has the freedom to suppress those aspects of Islam which hinder other Muslim countries to either develop (especially without Oil) or to engage with the rest of world on an equal footing as an intrinsic part of the rest of humanity.

For this evolution of a Bangladesh-specific Islam, the Bangladeshis would have to be much bolder, much more confident, and much more thorough in its analysis of what it means to be a modern nation. Bangladesh would have to stand up and tell all those outsiders (Arabs, Pakistanis, Indian Muslims) who want to determine the flavor of Bangladeshi Islam, to go take a hike. Bangladeshis should discuss this amongst themselves, and not allow any Arab or an Arab's chamcha a seat on the table, just like the Arab in UAE or Saudi Arabia does not allow the Bangladeshi to determine their course and policy.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Carl_T »

RajeshA wrote: For this evolution of a Bangladesh-specific Islam, the Bangladeshis would have to be much bolder, much more confident, and much more thorough in its analysis of what it means to be a modern nation. Bangladesh would have to stand up and tell all those outsiders (Arabs, Pakistanis, Indian Muslims) who want to determine the flavor of Bangladeshi Islam, to go take a hike. Bangladeshis should discuss this amongst themselves, and not allow any Arab or an Arab's chamcha a seat on the table, just like the Arab in UAE or Saudi Arabia does not allow the Bangladeshi to determine their course and policy.
Bingo. The conflict between indigenous versions of Islam and the Saudi backed version that has rapidly increased in the second half of this century is a major factor in these problems. It is the reason why Pakistan is Arabizing and why Malaysia is becoming Paki, and even Indonesia has seen growth here at the expense of its various local Islamic sects. The reason why Muslims all over the world cry for Palestinians. It is part of the fight for ownership of the "core" of Islam which otherwise could be challenged by nations like Turkey, Iran, or Indonesia.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Very very difficult. The pan-Islamist position on denial of pre-Islamic roots of modern Bengali society is deeply entrenched, and I would say slightly stronger in control or power over BD society than the general position Akalam bhai represents.

The academic historian community of BD, generally try to insist :

(1) Bengali language and culture is only about 1000 years old [thereby denying Barendri, Pala, Pragjyotish which in probability actually spread around the ancient confluence of Karatoa-Mahanadi-Ganges etc]
(2) That all elements of technology, agriculture, knowledge base like the calendar were adopted from Arabic and Persian sources [like the Bengali calendar was "invented" by Akbar based on lunar calendar of Islam]
(3) Islam was only spread by preacher saints like Shah Jalal [who actually was an Yemeni adventurer accompanying a Muslim expeditionary army sent from Gaur to subjugate Buddhist Srihatta or modern Sylhet] and that most modern Bengali Muslims have desirable Arabic, Afghan or Persian Islamic ancestry -except those that proudly claim descent from Hindu aristocracy [ like family in a famous case in early Brit Bengal of an aristocratic wife posisoning her hsuband ]. Some modern BD names keep Bannerjee as part of their Islamic name.

Any attempt at inventing a Bengali Islam will lead to

(a) hardening of attempts to sharpen the divide from non-Muslim identity
(b) increase in power of the Mullahs who will converge towards a more Arabic position
(c) intensification of Islamization with the added aim of claiming centre of attention for Ummah [ they already try to use the Vishwa-estema -"world meet" of Islam beside the Turag river - which was famous as a site for many battles of the Liberation war - as a sort or rival claimant to Islamic version of pilgrimage and openly mentioned as the second largest compared to the largest at Mecca]
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

RajeshA ji,

Thanks for the kind comments and confidence expressed about Bangladesh.

You have correctly identified some of the unique strengths of Bangladesh among Muslim majority nations and among other Muslim communities in the world, these are:

- it is at the periphery of the Islamic expansion, and the last eastern frontier of the Turko-Mongol Eurasian continent wide push
- it retains Bangla alphabet unlike many Islamic societies and communities, although Persian was lingua franca earlier, but Urdu or Arabic alphabet never became mainstream in Bengal
- in Bengal Islam started with a syncretic form and later gradually became more mainstream and the process continues in Bangladesh with recent globalization
- Bengali Muslim culture, though it has loan words and influence of earlier Islamic Tukic and Mughal rule, it never quite alienated or became separate from Bengali Hindu culture, as both were living side by side and still do at varying degrees in Bangladesh and India
- Bengali Reneaissance of Kolkata under British rule, had a great influence on Bengali society, Muslim and Hindu, which enriched Bengali language, literature and culture
- Bengali Muslims, in number, are probably the largest homogenous ethnic group among all Muslim ethnic groups - Arabic speaking people would be higher in number, but they are mostly a collection of Arabized people and are not as homogeneous as Bengali Muslims are

So Bengali Muslim is the largest and most Indic of all Islamic communities in the sub-continent, as well as the world, and of course the majority of this group live in Bangladesh. So there is a potential in the future, if Bangladesh can become a prosperous and technologically advanced developed country, following India's lead and help, then Bengal Muslims can have a considerable influence on the rest of the Islamic community.

During Mughal times, when Bengal was a bread basket and there was wealth as a result, I believe, Bengal Muslims were influential, not just in India but within the wider Islamic community. I have heard of older generations building Sarai-khana in Mecca for Indian and Bengali pilgrims.

Like the rest of India, Bengal suffered during colonial rule and Bangladesh suffered even more after Partition as it became isolated from the rest of India and rest of Bengal. It also lost the most enlightened and skilled part of its population. The period of Pakistani rule, Bangladeshi jute revenues were siphoned off for investment in Pakistan, it never got a fair share of development budget, participation in Army and other govt. jobs etc. After 1971, Mujib family rule was another catastrophe. Zia was not corrupt personally, but he did not last. Ershad was thoroughly corrupt. After Ershad, we have democracy see-saw game between the two Begums, both are thoroughly incompetent and helped by equally incompetent and corrupt yesmen. But the best thing is that we seem to have democracy which is becoming more and more entrenched.

Several things provided the country a life line:

- natural gas, which is rapidly declining now
- export oriented garment industry moved to and flourished in Bangladesh, when war broke out in Sri Lanka
- large number of migrant labors found jobs in the Middle East and some in ASEAN and East Asia, there is also a large immigrant community in the West - so a big remmittance from all these expat labor

Situation in Bangladesh country side has improved considerably recently, but it remains a poor country, mainly because of mismanagement and poor leadership, a carry over from the loss of intellectual class during the partition and later during Pakistan rule IMHO. Over population is also a huge problem.

About Bangladesh-specific Islam, its a touchy issue since people do not like to be manipulated or told about their belief system, as brihaspati ji points out in his post. As it is Bengali's are intelligent enough to not get too swayed by Arabs, but they are interested in getting the money, which is a problem. Bengali Muslims have a distinct dislike and distrust of Pakistani Muslims (specially Punjabi Muslims) and Urdu speaking Indian Muslims (because of their experience with Bihari Muslims), 1971 atrocities have not and will not be forgotten easily. So Pakistani or Indian Muslims have limited influence, unless they become the agents to bring in Arab oil money.

The biggest problem is the fact that a large number of migrant labor work in the Gulf oil rich countries. This coupled with the fact that oil money finds its way in Madrasah, Mosques and charities. Hasina govt. is doing a good job currently I believe and this trend will not go away, even if Khaleda comes to power. Extremists will not easily find a safe haven in a densely populated country like Bangladesh. There is no place to hide.

Bangladesh has little risk of turning into another Pakistan any time soon, for one thing we fortunately did not have an Afghanistan beside us, so CIA-KSA funded jihadist factory was not needed, also as described above, Bengal Muslims are a completely different animal than average Pakistan or Afghan Muslim. We have a vibrant middle class that has a healthy dislike of racist Arabs (who call us and other sub-continentals including Pakistanis as Miskeens/beggars), due to direct contact in Middle East and elsewhere. I have not met a single Bangladeshi person yet who likes Arabs, the general impression is that they are an idiotic, irrational and disrespectful people. Many of us know that this latest Islamic fundamentalist phenomenon is just about a century old started by post Ottoman Arabs, I have my own theories about this which we will get into later.

In summary, Bangladesh, if it can develop and surpass Malaysia or Turkey and become one of the most developed countries among Muslim majority countries, with higher GDP than others, then automatically it will be able to wield some influence in the Islamic community. But this also has to do with how much the sub-continental Indic race/ethnic group does well economically as a whole and how the world and rest of humanity looks upon them. More on this later.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Mauli »

if Bangladesh can become a prosperous and technologically advanced developed country, following India's lead and help, then Bengal Muslims can have a considerable influence on the rest of the Islamic community.
Given the state of Malaysia i don't think it is going to happen. In fact it is other way around. It is Malaysia which is getting Arabized.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Carl_T wrote:
RajeshA wrote: For this evolution of a Bangladesh-specific Islam, the Bangladeshis would have to be much bolder, much more confident, and much more thorough in its analysis of what it means to be a modern nation. Bangladesh would have to stand up and tell all those outsiders (Arabs, Pakistanis, Indian Muslims) who want to determine the flavor of Bangladeshi Islam, to go take a hike. Bangladeshis should discuss this amongst themselves, and not allow any Arab or an Arab's chamcha a seat on the table, just like the Arab in UAE or Saudi Arabia does not allow the Bangladeshi to determine their course and policy.
Bingo. The conflict between indigenous versions of Islam and the Saudi backed version that has rapidly increased in the second half of this century is a major factor in these problems. It is the reason why Pakistan is Arabizing and why Malaysia is becoming Paki, and even Indonesia has seen growth here at the expense of its various local Islamic sects. The reason why Muslims all over the world cry for Palestinians. It is part of the fight for ownership of the "core" of Islam which otherwise could be challenged by nations like Turkey, Iran, or Indonesia.
The promotion of Saudi version of Islam, Wahhabi aka Salafi aka Ahle Hadith, got world wide promotion using oil money, and from the facts that Mecca is there in KSA and the prophet was a native of Mecca. "Core" of Sunni Islam was under the control of Turko-Mongol rulers both in Ottoman and Mughal, while "core" of Shia Islam was controlled by rulers in Iran. After the fall of Mughal and break up of Ottoman empire, the "core" broke free of centralized state control, which gave rise to alternative claimants to revive Islam and Islamic societies, such as Hassan Al Bannah and Syed Qutb in Egypt (Brotherhood). Discovery of oil gave a boost to Saudi Wahhabi version. Globalization reduces the differences of regional versions with time, but regional versions do and will continue to remain, as regional cultures are different, because Islam is always enmeshed with local cultures and cannot be easily separated from it.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Mauli »

The promotion of Saudi version of Islam
are you saying that Saudi Islam has nothing to do with true Islam or Islam of prophet/Koran?.

I have a simple question for you. If you have to choose between Bangladesh and Islam, what will be your option?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

brihaspati wrote:Very very difficult. The pan-Islamist position on denial of pre-Islamic roots of modern Bengali society is deeply entrenched, and I would say slightly stronger in control or power over BD society than the general position Akalam bhai represents.

The academic historian community of BD, generally try to insist :

(1) Bengali language and culture is only about 1000 years old [thereby denying Barendri, Pala, Pragjyotish which in probability actually spread around the ancient confluence of Karatoa-Mahanadi-Ganges etc]
(2) That all elements of technology, agriculture, knowledge base like the calendar were adopted from Arabic and Persian sources [like the Bengali calendar was "invented" by Akbar based on lunar calendar of Islam]
(3) Islam was only spread by preacher saints like Shah Jalal [who actually was an Yemeni adventurer accompanying a Muslim expeditionary army sent from Gaur to subjugate Buddhist Srihatta or modern Sylhet] and that most modern Bengali Muslims have desirable Arabic, Afghan or Persian Islamic ancestry -except those that proudly claim descent from Hindu aristocracy [ like family in a famous case in early Brit Bengal of an aristocratic wife posisoning her hsuband ]. Some modern BD names keep Bannerjee as part of their Islamic name.

Any attempt at inventing a Bengali Islam will lead to

(a) hardening of attempts to sharpen the divide from non-Muslim identity
(b) increase in power of the Mullahs who will converge towards a more Arabic position
(c) intensification of Islamization with the added aim of claiming centre of attention for Ummah [ they already try to use the Vishwa-estema -"world meet" of Islam beside the Turag river - which was famous as a site for many battles of the Liberation war - as a sort or rival claimant to Islamic version of pilgrimage and openly mentioned as the second largest compared to the largest at Mecca]
My personal views are different than average Bangladeshi Muslim, but not so uncommon among intelligentsia and middle class.

There is a tendency to put more weight on immigrant Muslim contribution than what it probably was, but I don't think pre-Islamic root of modern Bengali society is denied. If I remember correctly, what was taught was that Hindu Brahminic Varna system was not so strong in the forested lands of Eastern Bengal Bhati areas, there were a lot Adivasi type tribal people that inhabited these areas, also maybe Buddhism or remnants of it was influential, so Islam found an opening there to expand, as the majority did not care for Varna system and wanted to improve their standing in society. I also remember reading that Sangskrit was the preferred language for Brahmins who did not like to use the language used by common people. The colloquial Bengali language found much more patronage under Turkic rulers, which was probably a populist move by them, that also worked to undermine the authority of Brahmins on society. These are the vague information I remember from what I was taught in school. I do remember that during last years of schooling (11th and 12th grade), we were studying history of Bengal and India from bengali textbooks written by R.C. Majumdar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Majumdar

About Bengali Calendar or Fosholi Shon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_calendar

it was originally started by Shashanka, but reintroduced by Akbar in its current form.

I am sure there are some historical inaccuracy in lower level text books, but one of the major influential historians was Ramesh Chandra Majumdar, at least, from our experience at school. I don't have enough information about current historians, but their up-to-date views are available here:

http://www.banglapedia.org/

I agree with brihaspati ji, that attempts to create Bengali Islam or trying to influence the belief system in a covert or overt way will be counter productive.
Last edited by AKalam on 15 Aug 2010 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Mauli wrote:
The promotion of Saudi version of Islam
are you saying that Saudi Islam has nothing to do with true Islam or Islam of prophet/Koran?.

I have a simple question for you. If you have to choose between Bangladesh and Islam, what will be your option?
I am not sure if this question is addressed to me, I guess it is as I am the only Bangladeshi here. About Saudi Islam, please find information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

About choosing between Bangladesh and Islam, I am a Muslim born in erstwhile East Pakistan, that later became Bangladesh, I did not have much of a choice in that matter. Perhaps if you state your question more clearly I can try to answer it.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Mauli »

"I am not sure if this question is addressed to me, I guess it is as I am the only Bangladeshi here. About Saudi Islam, please find information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi"
I know wahabi Islam. My question was how much of true Islam i.e. Islam of Prophet Mohammad is present in Wahabi Islam?. Or is it that Wahabi Islam is complete fabrication devoid of True Islam?.
"About choosing between Bangladesh and Islam, I am a Muslim born in erstwhile East Pakistan, that later became Bangladesh, I did not have much of a choice in that matter. Perhaps if you state your question more clearly I can try to answer it."
Again, what i meant was that if circumstances become such that you can't have both Bangaladesh and Islam at the same time which one you will go with e.g. Bakis have shown that they will go by Islam even if whole of the Bakistan turns into a waste land.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Mauli wrote:
"I am not sure if this question is addressed to me, I guess it is as I am the only Bangladeshi here. About Saudi Islam, please find information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi"
I know wahabi Islam. My question was how much of true Islam i.e. Islam of Prophet Mohammad is present in Wahabi Islam?. Or is it that Wahabi Islam is complete fabrication devoid of True Islam?.
"About choosing between Bangladesh and Islam, I am a Muslim born in erstwhile East Pakistan, that later became Bangladesh, I did not have much of a choice in that matter. Perhaps if you state your question more clearly I can try to answer it."
Again, what i meant was that if circumstances become such that you can't have both Bangaladesh and Islam at the same time which one you will go with e.g. Bakis have shown that they will go by Islam even if whole of the Bakistan turns into a waste land.
All versions of Islam is from the prophet (by definition) and all versions claim to be the truest and most authentic version (including the Wahabi variant) AFAIK. The details of this variant is again in that link and if that information is not enough, I am sure you can google to find tons of information on the web. My knowledge about Wahabi is limited.

About choosing between Islam and Bangladesh, are you asking if Bangladeshi's are given a choice to leave Islam or loose their country, which one will they choose? Your question is still not clear, sorry. When you are choosing between something, usually the choices are from something similar, such as Islam or Christianity or Buddhism or Sanatan Dharma which are all different religious belief systems, or it could be between Bangladesh, India or USA, which are countries. I am a bit perplexed how you can choose between a country and a religion. Bangladesh has 162 million people, there are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christians and people of other religions among them, if that helps any with this question.

Pakistan is a majority Muslim country. They are in a bad situation. It is debatable if it is because of Islam or bad leadership and management of that country, or because of the founding principle of two nation theory, an idea promoted by Iqbal and implemented by Jinnah, which has nothing to do with Islam, as a religion.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Venkarl »

Mauli wrote:...I have a simple question for you. If you have to choose between Bangladesh and Islam, what will be your option?
Kalam ji, please excuse me for butting in. AFAIK, Mauli is talking about your personal choice between your religion and your motherland (be it British India or E.Pakistan or Bangladesh now....it is your motherland). I think its a direct question to you.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Carl_T »

Mauli wrote: are you saying that Saudi Islam has nothing to do with true Islam or Islam of prophet/Koran?.
What is true Islam? :wink:
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

IMHO It is the one that revolves around 'Holy Koran' written by the last prophet(PBUH) and the one and only one god 'Allah' who is the owner of all as opposed to the Indic God who is in all while also out of all.Other versions of this true version are the 'Shias', 'Sufis' etc. who arose mainly because the people following true version wanted to convert Kaffirs and found it simpler to give it a little twist to the original version to make it more palatable to the kaffirs.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Carl_T »

All versions of Islam revolve around the koran and the prophet and Allah who is the owner of all. Shias and Sufis arose to convert Kaffirs!?!?!?!?!?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

Carl_T wrote:All versions of Islam revolve around the koran and the prophet and Allah who is the owner of all.
Yes and I did say that a little 'twist' was added so I guess you and me agree.
Carl_T wrote:Shias and Sufis arose to convert Kaffirs!?!?!?!?!?
IMHO to make it more palatable to the kaffirs, would love to be corrected.

Are we not OT here sir?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Friends, there is a thread more appropriate in GDF for this line of debate. "Politico-..."

I would request Akalam bhai to respond there if he wishes to.

The discussions started here in teh context of BD, and the possible future trends in that theology that can affect political or strategic scenario on the subcontinent. If we cannot maintain walking on that razor edge, I guess we have to avoid this line of debate here.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

Thanks Brihaspati Ji.
@Akalam Ji I was particularly interested in your ideas regarding Uighur wrt PRC and its fallout on C.A and the sub continent.Mind sharing some of those ideas.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Carl_T »

That thread appears to have met its 72.
Manishw wrote: Yes and I did say that a little 'twist' was added so I guess you and me agree.

IMHO to make it more palatable to the kaffirs, would love to be corrected.
I disagree, afaik both Sufi and Shia are internal developments in Islam, and I think Shia was used in Iran in part to strengthen a distinct Iranian identity against the foreign Arabs and Turks.

Maybe they came about due to influx of ideas from newly annexed non Muslim lands but I don't think it had anything to do with making Islam more acceptable to NMs.

[/OT]
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

No the thread is still on. Please post there. People : please read up on the "actual" claimed differences between those two sects. Almost nothing that matters to NM are different - only claims are about "legacy" and "inheritance" of the theological succession.

BD may require deeper analysis for potential short term and medium term implications of the ongoing struggle between Islamists and "secularists". It may crucially depend on the army and other paramilitary forces. The AL gov appears to have taken on too many enemies at the same time. Any rear door support from China or ME to the islamist faction can change the scene drastically.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

I will address the current discussion on Islam briefly. But since this discussion probably does not belong in this thread, I would request the forum moderators to remove this entire discussion to a more appropriate thread or a new thread and please provide a link to this new thread. Or we could just leave these posts and not respond to them once everyone has their last words on this topic.
Venkarl wrote:
Mauli wrote:...I have a simple question for you. If you have to choose between Bangladesh and Islam, what will be your option?
Kalam ji, please excuse me for butting in. AFAIK, Mauli is talking about your personal choice between your religion and your motherland (be it British India or E.Pakistan or Bangladesh now....it is your motherland). I think its a direct question to you.
If it is about my personal choice, then I will choose to keep my religion as with majority of Bengali Muslims (I will give a long explanation later as I complete presentation of my pet theories) and not convert to any new or old religion or become religion less like the atheists (which itself is akin to a religion) nor become agnostic. As for my motherland's political and state form, I would choose undivided pre-partition (British) India (again further explanation to be given after I present my theories), rather than E.Pakistan (Bangladesh was just a formal divorce from the West wing, but the borders of separation from India were drawn in 1947 by Radcliffe), as I consider two nation theory to be false that fed on subcontinental Muslims irrational fears of a majority domination and marginalization. In fact, I consider two nation theory and Partition to be the cause of much intractable problems, which diverted resources that could be used to uplift the socio-economic situation of the sub-continent and focus efforts towards outside sub-continent, instead of the current excessive mutual obsession and nuclear stand-off which is draining valuable resources and time, IMHO of course and I could very well be wrong.

But please note that this last bit about partition is strictly my personal POV and opinions and is not shared by majority of Bangladeshi Muslims, specially the elite, upper and lower middle class, although I would argue that the landless poor and destitute, who are voting with their feet to move to India for jobs risking their lives against BSF target practice, agree with my POV more.
Manishw wrote:Thanks Brihaspati Ji.
@Akalam Ji I was particularly interested in your ideas regarding Uighur wrt PRC and its fallout on C.A and the sub continent.Mind sharing some of those ideas.
Manishw ji, thanks for mentioning PBUH after the prophet, that is a nice touch, small marks of respect goes a long way towards mutual understanding, specially on charged issues like religion. Personally I understand much of the language on this web site, but most Muslims are not like me and take offense much too easily as is obvious from various incidents in the international scene.

As for Uyghur and PRC and its effect on CA and the subcontinent, I have studied their history a little and traveled in this region namely Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Xinjiang and interacted with friends from the indigenous community there, if it is appropriate in this thread, I will address all your questions here, if not please pose the questions in a more appropriate thread.
Carl_T wrote:That thread appears to have met its 72.
Manishw wrote: Yes and I did say that a little 'twist' was added so I guess you and me agree.

IMHO to make it more palatable to the kaffirs, would love to be corrected.
I disagree, afaik both Sufi and Shia are internal developments in Islam, and I think Shia was used in Iran in part to strengthen a distinct Iranian identity against the foreign Arabs and Turks.

Maybe they came about due to influx of ideas from newly annexed non Muslim lands but I don't think it had anything to do with making Islam more acceptable to NMs.

[/OT]
From my limited knowledge, Shia and Sunni were major split in Islam since the death of the prophet(SAWS), which started with determining the proper role of Ali(RA) and his progeny, which also happened to be the progeny of the prophet(SAWS) as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

Ali faction was marginalized and kept alive near Shia heartland of Southern Iraq. During Safavid rule, Iranian population converted from majority Sunni to majority Shia, rather recently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty
Shia Islam as the state religion

Even though Safavids were not the first Shia rulers in Iran, they played a crucial role in making Shia Islam the official religion in the whole of Iran. There were large Shia communities in some cities like Qom and Sabzevar as early as the 8th century. In the 10th and 11th centuries the Buwayhids, who were of the Zaidiyyah branch of Shia, ruled in Fars, Isfahan and Baghdad. As a result of the Mongol conquest and the relative religious tolerance of the Ilkhanids, Shia dynasties were re-established in Iran, Sarbedaran in Khorasan being the most important. The Ilkhanid ruler Öljaitü converted to Twelver Shiism in the 13th century.

Following his conquest of Iran, Ismail I made conversion mandatory for the largely Sunni population. The Sunni Ulema or clergy were either killed or exiled. Ismail I, despite his heterodox Shia beliefs (Momen, 1985), brought in Shi'a religious leaders and granted them land and money in return for loyalty. Later, during the Safavid and especially Qajar period, the Shia Ulema's power increased and they were able to exercise a role, independent of or compatible with the government. Despite the Safavid's Sufi origins, most Sufi groups were prohibited, except the Nimatullahi order.

Iran became a feudal theocracy: the Shah was held to be the divinely ordained head of state and religion. In the following centuries, this religious stance cemented both Iran's internal cohesion and national feelings and provoked attacks by its Sunni neighbors.
These Sunni neighbors were none other than Ottoman in the West and Mughal in the East.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

brihaspati wrote:No the thread is still on. Please post there. People : please read up on the "actual" claimed differences between those two sects. Almost nothing that matters to NM are different - only claims are about "legacy" and "inheritance" of the theological succession.

BD may require deeper analysis for potential short term and medium term implications of the ongoing struggle between Islamists and "secularists". It may crucially depend on the army and other paramilitary forces. The AL gov appears to have taken on too many enemies at the same time. Any rear door support from China or ME to the islamist faction can change the scene drastically.
About BD in the short and medium term, I will start off with my impressions:

- Mujib is perceived to be a demagogue and person of low caliber, who however sincerely loved his constituent people and knew how to move them emotionally
- his rule failed with his family being massacred, mainly because of the excesses that he and his family engaged in, he had the opportunity to take Bangladesh ahead, neither he had the aptitude, nor the skills, which he proved during his rule
- Zia who came after him was a better ruler, IMHO, but he also failed because he ruthlessly suppressed his juniors and colleagues that tried to overthrow him (he had too much blood on his hands and made too many enemies), also he moved the country towards a more Islamic path, became closer to Pakistan and could not properly manage the vital relationship with India. He was personally honest, but his party men in BNP were as corrupt as AL
- Ershad, the perennial lover man, is a funny and interesting figure, he was openly corrupt, but he knew how to manage his opponents, within the army and outside (in the political world). He was a skilled operator/driver, but he did not know whither the nation must go. He just wanted to stay in power, make money and have some personal fun on the side, IMHO
- now the two Begums, are typical middle class emotional know nothing ladies, they inherited the AL and BNP parties and are following the legacy of their husband/father, both have learned over the years how to be politically savvy, but in the end, they are incompetent to the core, nothing much should be expected from them

During the latest Army rule (disguised as civilian interim govt. rule), there was talk of removing these two ladies from the political scene, but it came to nothing, because, there are no other widely recognized figure heads who had so much brand appeal like these two among our illiterate masses, so they are still there. Lately I have seen news that they are in speaking terms and inviting each other to Iftaar parties, so that is a welcome development.

Frankly, since that Mutiny massacre, I got so disgusted with things in Bangladesh, that I stopped following anything there with interest, it will take some time for me to become up to date and engage in meaningful discussions about recent development, specially regarding the ongoing struggle between Islamists and secularists.

Bangladesh being a democracy since 1991, and the voting public getting more conscious by the day, due to development of TV media, performance of politicians should improve, unless they risk being voted out of office. Khaleda and BNP lost last election and fell victim to the coup before that mainly due to perception of wide spread corruption scandals by her son Tareq. Fortunately, Hasina's son Joy did not return to BD, but AL performance so far has been mixed, I think. The JeI in Bangladesh has limited voter appeal, as can be seen with the number of seats they got in past elections, but they were king makers a few times in alliance with BNP during their previous rules. The biggest thing going for people like JeI is their clean record of not involving in corruption and good management. So for secularists to succeed, the secularist block (which is AL) needs to clean house and bring in people who are competent and free of corruption. Just like India and Pakistan, people in BD wants to ensure their basic necessities above everything else, which are: Food, Clothing, Shelter, electricity, jobs etc. If secularists block have a better team that can manage the country better and show tangible results then no Islamist block can ever dislodge them, IMHO.
Last edited by AKalam on 16 Aug 2010 06:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Shia -Sunni : The primary official dispute was generated around factionalism in Kufa, and really a non-Iranian internal fight among the early Caliphs in the North-west far from Kufa. This took formal mutual accusations of responsibility for the assassination of Ali. The later representations about the incident could be politically motivated, as Sunni criticisms point out the incongruities of the second point of the dispute over Ali's "marriage" to a Persian princess [who technically speaking would have been a child at the time of her capture when a deceptive attack had been made on a Persian city].

It is as I pointed out, mainly about claiming the legacy of sole leadership of the Ummah - a struggle that went on right from the beginning of the theology. The inherent imperialism that could be used to claim the loyalty and support of all of Ummah appeared attractive to regional elite who wanted to use the "call" to consolidate their own power and appropriation of resources. Thus Fatimid Egypt tried this, Al Andalus tried it, there was even an episode in the reign of the early Caliphs when the Kaba was burnt deliberately under attack by a faction to enhance the more Levantine pilgrimage site - the Persians tried it, Ottomans tried it, and now Pak is trying too.

But where the nitty gritty of applicational aspects are concerned, very little of the theology differs - examples of difference say on the automatic annulment of the existing marriage of women captured in war or raids or say Muta marriage.

On the subcontinent, this may be a matter for existing Islamic states of AFG and Pak, where as I have said before, actual Iranian behaviour may not walk along expected hostile lines due to atrocities on Shias in Pak. Here Iran will help Talebs over and above Shioa sentiment because of geo-politics of safeguarding Gulf interests and causing pain to USA. But for India, and perhaps even for BD it does not really matter.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

brihaspati wrote:Shia -Sunni : The primary official dispute was generated around factionalism in Kufa, and really a non-Iranian internal fight among the early Caliphs in the North-west far from Kufa. This took formal mutual accusations of responsibility for the assassination of Ali. The later representations about the incident could be politically motivated, as Sunni criticisms point out the incongruities of the second point of the dispute over Ali's "marriage" to a Persian princess [who technically speaking would have been a child at the time of her capture when a deceptive attack had been made on a Persian city].

It is as I pointed out, mainly about claiming the legacy of sole leadership of the Ummah - a struggle that went on right from the beginning of the theology. The inherent imperialism that could be used to claim the loyalty and support of all of Ummah appeared attractive to regional elite who wanted to use the "call" to consolidate their own power and appropriation of resources. Thus Fatimid Egypt tried this, Al Andalus tried it, there was even an episode in the reign of the early Caliphs when the Kaba was burnt deliberately under attack by a faction to enhance the more Levantine pilgrimage site - the Persians tried it, Ottomans tried it, and now Pak is trying too.

But where the nitty gritty of applicational aspects are concerned, very little of the theology differs - examples of difference say on the automatic annulment of the existing marriage of women captured in war or raids or say Muta marriage.

On the subcontinent, this may be a matter for existing Islamic states of AFG and Pak, where as I have said before, actual Iranian behaviour may not walk along expected hostile lines due to atrocities on Shias in Pak. Here Iran will help Talebs over and above Shioa sentiment because of geo-politics of safeguarding Gulf interests and causing pain to USA. But for India, and perhaps even for BD it does not really matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muslims_schools.png

Please note that areas ruled by Turko-Mongols still remain Hanafi followers. Shia today would be insignificant if it was not taken up by the Safavid dynasty as an alternative doctrine to oppose, separate and unite Iranians against hostile Sunni Ottoman and Mughal encroachment from both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

If you note the table with Nations with over 100,000 shia, Bangladesh is not even in the list, which tell us that the Shia in Bangladesh is less than 100,000. But India, Pakistan and Afghanistan are up there, each having 10-15% Shia among their Muslim population. From these numbers the combined Shia in the sub-continent are close to Iran's population of Shia and the maximum estimates are much higher than Iran's entire population. My guess is that these Shia population in the sub-continent represent descendants of migrants from Safavid and post Safavid Iran during Mughal times and their local converts. On the other hand, there is significant persian speaking Tajik population in Central Asia, all of whom continue to be Sunni Hanafi, as they did not fall under Safavi rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_people

For Afghanistan, Shia Hazara are an interesting group. Because of their ethnic and genetic similarity with Mongols, I found that Mongols from Mongolia in some forum expressed solidarity with them and some even offered to take them back in Mongolia against persistent persecution and harassment from Pashtuns, which I found quite interesting, at least its one example when ethnic solidarity trumps religion, at least in expressed sentiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazara_people
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Akalam Bhai,
I think if you read carefully - you will see that I am not disputing you about the Shia-Sunni origins. My post was about briefly trying to say that (1) initially it was not about Iranian internalities but factional infighting on the western fringe of the Caliphate and southern Iraq in Kufa (2) the representation about the initial dispute centred around Ali could very well be a later political construct (3) the legacy aspect (through Ali's marriage with a Persian princess) was a matter of struggle for dominance over the Ummah by regional power -in this case Iranians.

The reason for my statement that the Shia Sunni divide may not be that much of a matter for the subcontinent, is because Iran appears to be considering its geo-strategic "national" interests over and above any "Shia" unification. In this the great enemy of Khomeini Iran is USA. Thus even though finishing off Sunni separatists, Khomeinist Iran still knows that there are n-number of disgruntled militias keen to taste Khomeinists' blood - ranging from Kurds to Sunni rebels to Maoists - and that all of them could be fed by the USA. So pushing out supply bases of USA from around its neighbourhood, especially its border with AFPAK is a priority. This is why it may well be helping factions of the Talebs.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

AKalam wrote: As for Uyghur and PRC and its effect on CA and the subcontinent, I have studied their history a little and traveled in this region namely Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Xinjiang and interacted with friends from the indigenous community there, if it is appropriate in this thread, I will address all your questions here, if not please pose the questions in a more appropriate thread.
Akalam Ji IMHO I feel this to be an appropriate thread to discuss your experiences and Ideas as mentioned above and its fallout/effect on the subcontinent.Kindly oblige.Will take the future part from there if necessary after your post.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Brihaspati ji,

1. True
2. Possible
3. Possible

Yes for the sub-continent and Afghanistan, this Shia thing matters little. Iranians seem to be using the Shia solidarity card with the neighbors to their West and South, among Arab nations who has Shia populations, such as Iraq, Lebanon (Hezbollah), KSA, Bahrain and other GCC nations, as a lever against the US.

Again, I agree that the main motivation is to have some leverage against US, so that is why helping Taleb factions to try to push out the US makes sense for Iranians.

Now, this brings up a very important issue, may be it belongs in the Geopolitics thread, but I will mention it here briefly.

US may have bungled their way into Iraq and Afghanistan due to 9/11 and neo-con agenda, but lately countering a rising PRC is becoming a big issue. So for US to create trouble for PRC, it needs to have bases all around it and close by. Saddam was removed as he was becoming a threat to KSA and other smaller GCC nations under US protection. Continued presence in Iraq is important, to ensure stability in oil-rich ME and to put pressure on Iran. Similarly a base in Afghanistan is important to counter PRC influence in this region and perhaps to try to create trouble within PRC later, but that is still far-off. To have a base in Afghanistan, US needs a supply route via a friendly state with sea access, which Pakistan provides, hence Pakistan more and more may become US's poodle, and possibly move away from PRC. But all of this is based on the assumption that the US will stay in Afghanistan to counter PRC. I guess we will have to wait and see to find out.

Here is a post I made in US and PRC relationship & India:
While I was going through above article, I came across the link to the original Mearsheimer article:

http://sydney.edu.au/business/__data/as ... 100804.pdf

This opinion seems to me to be more sensible, measured and closer to reality than the fantasy 100 year prediction of Friedman of Stratfor fame.

China will lock horns with the US at some point. The question is who among these two G2 countries will come up with the winning team. IMHO, geography plays an important role. China being a neighbor, today or tomorrow, economies of South Asia will become integrated with PRC. Even though Han Chinese behavior and antics will be unbearable for the short and medium term, in the long term, one needs to come to terms with its neighbor. So I would predict that even though the West will try to create divisions within Asia, it may be wiser for Asian countries as well as Russia to stay united or at least neutral, during a power struggle between China and the West. I am not a big fan of China, but looking at the whole scenario, this seems to me the right approach, considering all of us have been victims of the West in the last few centuries. This also means that China needs to stop undermining Indian interest and take a more cooperative attitude, as a price for this approach. Sorry if I sound way too simplistic.
When a full fledged cold war with China materialize, then the bases in Korea and Japan will become important and PRC will also keep its support intact to maintain the Kim regime in N. Korea. So Korea will remain divided as a result of a new cold war, this time between USA and PRC.

As for India, I think managing the sub-continent and reducing hostile entities within this near neighborhood is important, because they are practically family nations living in the same house. Having a good relation with PRC as a neighboring power is also important. So it will be a delicate balance to keep a relationship with the West for wealth and tech. transfer, but keeping option open for future long term relation with PRC, when in my prediction West eventually looses the long war with PRC.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Manishw wrote:
AKalam wrote: As for Uyghur and PRC and its effect on CA and the subcontinent, I have studied their history a little and traveled in this region namely Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and Xinjiang and interacted with friends from the indigenous community there, if it is appropriate in this thread, I will address all your questions here, if not please pose the questions in a more appropriate thread.
Akalam Ji IMHO I feel this to be an appropriate thread to discuss your experiences and Ideas as mentioned above and its fallout/effect on the subcontinent.Kindly oblige.Will take the future part from there if necessary after your post.
First a brief historical backgrounder and my general impression on PRC autonomous regions/provinces (I will go into more details about Xinjiang in next post):

PRC, has by force occupied the native land of three peoples and calls them by the euphemism Autonomous regions, these are Inner Mongolia, Tibet (parts of which were incorporated in other neighboring provinces) and Xinjiang. Together these regions have close to 50% of PRC's land area. The history and occupation of Inner Mongolia is a bit complicated as Mongols have a long history with Han Chinese, from ancient times when nomadic Huns (a kindred people of Mongol's ancestors) and other eastern nomadic people periodically attacked from the North and specially since Chingis Khan from around early 1200's. Han Chinese have suffered quite a bit under racist Mongol Yuan and Manchu Qing dynasties. Manchu's willingly became the rulers, thinned out in the vast Han Chinese population, eventually their home land Manchuria was inundated and the Manchu's as a people, since the fall of Qing in 1912, have merged with the Han Chinese. Mongols on the other hand, at least the ones in the far north part of then Mongol homeland, remained staunchly opposed to loosing their identity in the midst of a sea of Han Chinese. With Russian help between 1911 and 1921, after the fall of Qing dynasty, they were able to curve out a rather large area as their homeland, which is today's Mongolia, but they lost Inner Mongolia, most of which was their traditional homeland. Since 1850's it was flooded with Han Chinese farmers and now only around 10% of the population in Inner Mongolia are ethnic Mongols. Because of what the Mongols did in recent history in China and how they treated the Han's as 4th class citizens, akin more to slaves during Yuan rule and then again with their help of Manchu's during Qing dynasty in a similarly oppressive foreign regime, I am not much concerned about Inner Mongolia, as it is kind of poetic justice or Karma if you will for the Mongols, any one familiar with today's Mongolians (in Ulan Bator) would note that they remain one of the most virulently racist people. Mongol version of Neo Nazi sympathizers with their angers directed against a rising Chinese people and state, increasingly influential in Mongolia, is a common theme in the popular psyche there.

The matter of Tibet and Xinjiang is quite another matter. Xinjiang was a part of the Chinese state nominally under Tang, way back in history. After the battle of Talas in 751 AD Uyghurs and Tibetans took over this area in the North and South respectively and Han Chinese were essentially expelled from Turkic Central Asia. Under Mongol Yuan dynasty, both Tibet and Xinjiang region came under Chinese state. Under Ming, the control was very nominal with Tibet but Xinjiang was completely lost to Muslim Mongols called Chagatai Moghuls. Under Manchu Qing both regions were reoccupied and incorporated with the Chinese state, as part of the Great Game where Great Britain was afraid of growing Russian influence at the door steps of British India and helped finance Qing invasion of these areas. With fall of Qing in 1912 both areas became virtually independent. In 1950's the PLA invaded both areas and annexed them into the Chinese state.

Tibet and Xinjiang are home to distinct ethnic groups with their own distinct culture and religion, that is quite different from Han Chinese mainstream. To reduce the risk of separation and secession, similar to what happened after the fall of Soviet Union, the Han Chinese dominated CPC has a policy of demographic invasion to inundate both areas with Han Chinese population, so that eventually both areas have Han Chinese majority and thus reduce the risk of secession at any point in the future.

In principle, I do not agree with this policy, as it is a great disruption for the affected groups, namely Tibetans and Turkic Muslims of Xinjiang (Uyghur, Kyrgyz and Kazakh/Qazaq), but when we weigh the interest of 1.2 billion Han Chinese against the natural rights of some 15 million Turkics and some several million Tibetans, we can get some perspective that Han Chinese really do need their lebensraum and their claim has some validity just from looking at the numbers concerned. But they could go about it in a much more humane way. Once they have removed the risk of secession, they could provide much more autonomy, cultural and religious freedom and share the fruits of economic growth. Specially since, historically, both Uyghurs and Tibetans never subjugated Han Chinese and humiliated them, like the Mongols and Manchus did in the past, if anything they have come to the help and aid of the Han Chinese states in times of need, during attacks from the nomadic North. It will serve the Han Chinese well to remember these historical facts with gratitude and treat both of these people with a little more humanity and respect.

Once the Han Chinese dominated CPC (Communist Party of China) leadership learns to properly handle these two regions, there would be no reason for Dalai Lama to beg for attention around the world to look at the plight of Tibetans, the onus on this issue is on the CPC polit buro. The hawks among them such as Hu Jin Tao and others who are rising from governorship in these two regions, by tough handling of security matters, is an entirely wrong strategy for the CPC polit buro, it needs a complete rethink to turn around the current untenable situation prevailing in Tibet and Xinjiang and bring some balance for their (Han Chinese) own long term interest. When the PRC leadership or more correctly Han Chinese leadership learn how to handle these annexed regions properly, it is only then there will be no leverage for third parties such as the US or any other large systems to create problem for the Han Chinese state (PRC or any other future incarnation).
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

Great post Akalam Ji , will wait for your next post.Please take your time doing that and post only at your convenience.Will add my thoughts after that.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RajeshA »

AKalam wrote:when we weigh the interest of 1.2 billion Han Chinese against the natural rights of some 15 million Turkics and some several million Tibetans, we can get some perspective that Han Chinese really do need their lebensraum and their claim has some validity just from looking at the numbers concerned. But they could go about it in a much more humane way.
That is a very dangerous argument. Indians are also 1.1 billion. Indians have in spite of pressure on land, decided to keep Article 370, even though India has a far stronger claim on Jammu & Kashmir.

The Chinese are pursuing the principle of 'might is right'! Acquiescence to PRC's right to expansion is suicidal for Asians. When PRC is finished with the dams on the Brahmaputra, then Bangladesh, even though not a neighbor of PRC, would also feel the after-effects of Chinese avarice in Asia.

Accepting Chinese preeminence in Asia is not an option for Asians.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

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ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang

Above a somewhat detailed look at Xinjiang, with its history and many relevant facts and info.

Now my personal impression during my visits there around 2007-2008. My first encounter with Uyghur was during my stay in Kyrgyzstan. They have a large presence in Bishkek, the capital of Kyrgyzstan. They are successful restaurant owners, serving delicious Uyghur cuisine, such as Laghman (noodles) and Manti (dumpling similar to Korean Mandu). In Xinjiang, Urumqi is a large city and parts of the city seemed very much Chinese, just like Hong Kong or Taipei. But there are Uyghur parts of the city that has a very different feel to it. The Uyghur seemed poorer than the Chinese. I was staying in a relatively cheap Chinese owned 5 star hotel near the main town square (all big PRC cities have a big town square with Mao's statue in it for town gatherings, similar to former Soviet town squares with Lenin statues) at first. There were no Uyghur employees there, except for one welcoming host lady at the ethnic themed Uyghur restaurant, where all waiter and waitresses were Chinese. For my next several trips, I stayed in a Uyghur owned smaller hotel in Uyghur part of the town. There are a lot of nice restaurants where they serve freshly squeezed Pomegranate juice. In the more fancy ones, there is live Uyghur music and dancing, which the Chinese patrons seem to enjoy a lot.

Most taxi drivers were Chinese, some Hui Muslim Chinese, but very few Uyghurs. Some Uyghurs drove illegal taxis (not govt. approved), servicing only Uyghur customers.

Kashgar is several hour flight from Urumqi, when we landed, there was a dust storm and a strange smell from an indigenous plant. I got used to it after a while. Eid gah mosque is near the center of the Town and main road. Again a lot of nice restaurants, very reasonable price, great interior decoration and some central stage for live Uyghur music. Kashgar was majority Uyghur and the town had no Chinese feel to it, except for the few Chinese hotels and govt. office buildings. A lot of Western tourists drinking beer, making noise and having a good time. Uyghurs are hard drinkers, just like the Kazakh and Kyrgyz, probably a trait that comes down from Siberian ancestors they share.

In Kashgar we saw Pakistani traders in the hotel and on the streets, they are generally disliked by the Uyghurs, because of bad reputation as drug smugglers.

From Kashgar we went to some interior mountainous areas, where the majority is Kyrgyz in the country side and in their small towns.

From Urumqi we drove to Altai city in the north by Taxi. On the way we saw Kazakhs living in tents, in the middle of nowhere, children playing outside and some horses and sheeps grazing nearby. Altai city was a majority Kazakh town, with a large number of chinese, who owned most shops in the shopping mall and other businesses. Kazakh ladies were selling nice fresh Yogurt/curd type drinks in front of the market place, very nice natural taste. We also went to a Mongol owned restaurant, apparently there were a lot of ethnic Mongols in this town. The Kazakhs here looked different from Kazakhs in Almaty, Kazakhstan. They were bigger in size and with more Asian Mongol features, apparently these are Mongol Kazakhs (there are three types of Kazakhs - Mongol, Kyrgyz and Turkmen), according to a friend. Altai city is near Altai mountain range and had a lot of fast flowing mountain springs. Many Chinese visit as tourists to enjoy the fresh air, water and mountain scene.

Uyghurs main complaints:

- they need to learn Chinese to get jobs in govt. or at chinese businesses, and sometimes Chinese owner only hires Chinese employees
- they feel like under a hostile occupation, anyone talking to foreigners can be taken in for questioning
- some want independence, but more wise and intelligent ones mentioned that things are getting better over time

In Urumqi, we went to a huge a truck depot, trucks leave with Chinese goods for Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and even for Russia, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. Russian and Central Asian businessmen come to town by chartered bus, buy goods and take with them by bus. Some Uyghurs that know Chinese work as interpreters, as Turkic languages are understandable, some Uyghurs who studied in Russia and Central Asia, also know Russian. Some of these Uyghurs became rich in trading and logistics business with Russia and Central Asia. Some Uyghur money changers waiting for customers in front of banks, I heard from my friend, also became fabulously rich, from this business.

Chinese extract oil, gas and minerals from Xinjiang and treat it as their precious strategic gateway to Central Asia. They have huge army presence. They have probably more Han Chinese than Turkic Muslims here, many of whom are former Army personnel. Hui Chinese Muslims are loyal to PRC and they have a significant presence, just like in Tibet. I believe there is no way that they will loose Xinjiang. Even in case of revolt or insurgency, it will bring only pain for Uyghurs. Besides, Uyghurs are universally sufi type moderate Hanafi Muslims, similar to other Turkic Muslims in Central Asia. Arab Wahhabi or any version of extremist Islam has little appeal to them.

So I see zero chance that US or any outside powers can create trouble and be successful. Overseas Uyghur leaders like Rebiya Kadeer, should continue to high light Uyghur grievances:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebiya_Kadeer

Han Chinese leadership need to address Uyghur grievances and open dialogue with people like Rebiya Kadeer (and Dalai Lama of Tibet), let them prosper with more economic opportunities and let them practice their culture. Uyghur resentment will go down if Chinese adopt a more pragmatic policy. As PRC develops and become a more developed nation, Uyghurs will be glad that they did not create any great disturbance for the sake of separation or independence ("splittist" in Chinese vocabulary) and stayed more or less peacefully within PRC.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

RajeshA wrote:
AKalam wrote:when we weigh the interest of 1.2 billion Han Chinese against the natural rights of some 15 million Turkics and some several million Tibetans, we can get some perspective that Han Chinese really do need their lebensraum and their claim has some validity just from looking at the numbers concerned. But they could go about it in a much more humane way.
That is a very dangerous argument. Indians are also 1.1 billion. Indians have in spite of pressure on land, decided to keep Article 370, even though India has a far stronger claim on Jammu & Kashmir.

The Chinese are pursuing the principle of 'might is right'! Acquiescence to PRC's right to expansion is suicidal for Asians. When PRC is finished with the dams on the Brahmaputra, then Bangladesh, even though not a neighbor of PRC, would also feel the after-effects of Chinese avarice in Asia.

Accepting Chinese preeminence in Asia is not an option for Asians.
If there is a way to do it, Article 370 should be scrapped, with consultation from Kashmir local leadership or by a referendum there, if required. IMHO it is not good for Kashmir or India.

Might is right is an old concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melian_Dialogue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Law_of_the_Jungle

About Brahmaputra, they are planning and will take some water, it will not be easy to stop them. But they cannot cause catastrophe that kills a lot of people down stream, which may be considered as unacceptable by World opinion and may become too great of a PR disaster for them. It will be best to negotiate and work with them to come up with a region wide water management solution, so the damage is minimized.

It has been my observation in life that a person or people usually do what they can get away with, the trick will be to make it prohibitively expensive for the person or state, if someone wants to do something and cause pain to others.

About Chinese preeminence in Asia, I wish it was different, but they already achieved it and are on their way to compete with the US. But India's day might come soon after, there is a very good probability.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

Another great article regarding Xinjiang from you Akalam Ji.
I would just like to put your viewpoint's in a few lines and
would appreciate any correction's that you would like to make.

Basically you feel that Asia(in particular china, India, Tibet,
Xinjiang, BD, Sri lanka etc.) have suffered quite a lot at the
hands of outside power's and feel that PRC is changing that
equation surely and steadily.India might follow Soon.You being
from BD yourself feel that smaller states(ala the above mentioned ones) have no future in the changing global scenario and should be part of wider bloc.If I presume correctly you want Integration in a separate fashion than what the PRC is doing(might is right stuff).

For this you would like to see a subcontinental bloc being formed and do understand that radical RoP has no place in it and a more palatable version has to evolve (ie moving towards spirituality).
In the medium to long term you feel balance of power will shift to a
more equilibrium position(ie east) and the Sub-continental block and PRC have to also learn to co-exist.

Regarding Pakistan and the Taliban stuff I am not clear what your opinions are and have one more doubt can a palatable version evolve? Kindly elucidate further and correct any mistakes.

Heck we seem to be on the same page at least if not the same line
as of now.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RajeshA »

AKalam wrote:
If there is a way to do it, Article 370 should be scrapped, with consultation from Kashmir local leadership or by a referendum there, if required. IMHO it is not good for Kashmir or India.
AKalam ji,

Article 370 is actually symbolic for the value India gives to the concept that the prevalent ethnicity of a region should not be overrun by outsiders. In fact, India is putting this moral value on a higher pedestal than it deserves, since Kashmir has always belonged to the core of Indian Civilization, and Kashmir should have been integrated many a springs ago. In any case, India has already paid our respects to this value for the last 62 years and it is more than enough.
AKalam wrote:About Chinese preeminence in Asia, I wish it was different, but they already achieved it and are on their way to compete with the US. But India's day might come soon after, there is a very good probability.
The preeminent power in Asia is still USA, and it will remain so for quite some time, at least for the next two decades. USA and India have some serious differences
  • Support for Pakistan
  • Enmity with Iran
  • Rivalry with Russia
These dynamics would stay so for the next two decades at least as well. The general thinking on BRF is that Pakistan could survive for two more decades and then it will collapse, taking all the plans of its patrons along with it. Iran could also find a solution in the next two decades. Either USA would subdue Iran (unlikely) or Iran would muscle itself into a position, where USA would learn to live with it. Rivalry with Russia is dissipating as the glaciers of Cold War melt and the Cold War warriors die out.

The point is, in the next 20 years, a declining power like USA and a rising power like India could be forced to enter into an alliance for containing China. Such an alliance would still be formidable enough to not allow China preeminence in Asia, especially as PRC becomes more threatening.

There are several unknowns as far as India's capacity to share in the burden of such an alliance is concerned, but it is not an impossible task.

As yet, nothing is decided.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

Manishw wrote:Another great article regarding Xinjiang from you Akalam Ji.
I would just like to put your viewpoint's in a few lines and
would appreciate any correction's that you would like to make.

Basically you feel that Asia(in particular china, India, Tibet,
Xinjiang, BD, Sri lanka etc.) have suffered quite a lot at the
hands of outside power's and feel that PRC is changing that
equation surely and steadily.India might follow Soon.You being
from BD yourself feel that smaller states(ala the above mentioned ones) have no future in the changing global scenario and should be part of wider bloc.If I presume correctly you want Integration in a separate fashion than what the PRC is doing(might is right stuff).

For this you would like to see a subcontinental bloc being formed and do understand that radical RoP has no place in it and a more palatable version has to evolve (ie moving towards spirituality).
In the medium to long term you feel balance of power will shift to a
more equilibrium position(ie east) and the Sub-continental block and PRC have to also learn to co-exist.

Regarding Pakistan and the Taliban stuff I am not clear what your opinions are and have one more doubt can a palatable version evolve? Kindly elucidate further and correct any mistakes.

Heck we seem to be on the same page at least if not the same line
as of now.
Thanks for your kind words Manishw Ji, and sorry for my delayed reply.

Yes, you have summarized my POV well, but since I am a perfectionist, I will refine it further in my own words.

Tibet and Xinjiang did not suffer that much from Western colonial powers, but are currently suffering under Han Chinese yoke, which seems to be pretty much permanent for the foreseeable future. But China, India, BD, Sri Lanka etc., pretty much all countries in Central, South and South East Asia - did suffer under the West and some Asian countries also suffered under Japan such as Korea and China. Japan was the first Asian power to rise and then with US help, the four tigers rose in ASEAN (Taiwan, S. Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore), then a second list of countries in ASEAN did improve a little such as Thailand, Malaysia and to some extent Indonesia.

Rise of China and Vietnam started more recently in early nineties and India also opened up soon after.

PRC's rise has been the most dramatic in recent years and India's rise is also picking up pace, for reasons I will explain in a theory I will present soon (briefly as you pointed out larger systems/countries/blocs have economies of scale and that translates into competitive edge compared to smaller states). Of course the authoritarian efficient decision making in PRC and Vietnam leadership is another edge they have at this time. I have seen this first hand, when I was engaged in a manufacturing business in Bangladesh in the 1990's, how government made a big difference in entire sectors of industry and moving them from S. Korea and Taiwan to PRC and Vietnam. Some in Bangladesh (including myself) had started athletic-shoe manufacturing a little earlier than this big push by PRC and Vietnam, but we were swept away by their govt. led push where party officials went to S. Korea and Taiwan and offered financially troubled owners (due to rising labor cost) rent-free buildings, tax incentives etc. and requested them to just put their machines in containers and move - we did not stand a chance to compete, because PRC and Vietnam soon became new centers for this manufacturing sector almost overnight. It became difficult for us to get order from buyers and some of these factories went bankrupt. Another difficulty was that Bangladesh has a small market, if we were within India or had access to Indian market, we could easily compete with Indian manufacturers, but that avenue was not open.

I think a sub-continental bloc is good for the very long term, as I think this recent extremist RoP phenomenon is a temporary and passing phase, this was not even prevalent on world stage before the Afghan Jihad. RoP is a shifting dynamic entity, within certain limits and its entirely possible IMHO to move towards more palatable and tolerant versions, when it is done from proper sources, namely from the old and established theological centers of learning and research, and when there is money behind the propagation of sound ideas and reform. Due to globalization, there is increasing contact between Muslims and there is some initial euphoria of some kind of Islamic common brother hood, now IMHO it is not bad to have OIC etc. to push for some common agenda's and pool resources to help each other, but the increasing contact has also resulted in observations that Islam is just a veneer, people do have local cultures and local concerns and Islam or any religion is just a part (with varying degrees of significance) of their total cultural make up, it can never replace the local and regional nature of human beings with their unique local ethno-linguistic identity that goes much further back in time than Islam or any other religion.

The center of gravity of worlds power is coming back to the Asian region slowly but surely, as it always was the status quo since the age of empires and civilization started since around 5,000-6,000 years ago, except for a hiatus of several centuries of Western domination. As immediate neighbor nations with common border, where the high Himalayan range is no longer as formidable a barrier as before (high mountain passes are open at least part of the year), and other road links being established via Myanmar, India (as well as South Asia) and PRC is poised to go into further economic integration which will result in higher levels of people to people contact, understanding and increasing business and interpersonal relationship. It is my belief that both India (and South Asia) and PRC will function kind of like binary stars where the smaller countries will revolve around them. So there is constant tug of war for influence between these two powers in the Asian neighbor-hood around them. Instead of getting into a corrosive and counter productive conflict, it will be better for the region and the world to manage this competition creatively so there is a win-win for the both sides and for other smaller countries around them. Because in the long run, neighbors are neighbors and they will be much more intertwined over time than countries and people who are far away, such as the West and even West Asia.

Regarding Pakistan and Taliban, my view is that it is a product of partition, they should not have broken off from the core, but once they have, with a flawed foundation (two nation theory), which was proven wrong in 1971, they started catching at straws to keep afloat. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and subsequent joint funding of Jihad from KSA-CIA and a conscious decision by a delusional elite to move towards a brotherhood type Islamism and use this Jihadi instrument against India in Kashmir and Taliban in Afghanistan, was short-sighted for Pakistan. They are reaping the fruits now. After 9/11 they are working to control the same monster they have created as a mercenary for the West. Perhaps with US help they will be able to turn around from this direction, if they cannot then there will be instability in Af-pak region, the exact form of which will be difficult to predict.

The Key question is I think if the US will go into a cold war rivalry with PRC, from this current lovers embrace and try to injure it by stabbing PRC in the back without provocation, when this lover is getting too strong and may set to surpass it. If the US is intent on doing this, then it will need bases nearby in Afghanistan and Korea/Japan. My hope is that an economically damaged USA steers to a more pragmatic route and winds down its hegemonic control of the world and relinquish some power to regional rising powers, unless it is required by situation where PRC is causing a lot of physical harm to its colonial subjects (Tibet/Xinjiang) or getting too aggressive with its less powerful neighbor countries. This is when the US and the West can bring a balance of force to resist harmful actions by a rogue power.

IMHO, it was a strategic mistake by the US (EU was forced to tag along later), just because of the greed of a few businessmen, to put all their eggs in one basket. Instead of giving the entire manufacturing market to PRC, in the name of free trade, to take advantage of authoritarian govt. and slave labor, so the trading businesses and companies like Walmart and other retailers could maximize their profit, they should have spread the market access to other low cost manufacturing centers, in ASEAN and South Asia, who could compete easily with PRC, if given the opportunity with the help of some quota and tariff. Its a little too late for that now, but still the US/EU should think about strategic implications when corporations make their business decisions. Free trade and maximizing profit looks great for short term profit making, but it can be destabilizing in the medium or longer term, which may end up costing a lot more to curb a rogue power that became overblown in too short a time, without developing an adequate sense of responsibility.

As PRC has become way too strong already, the West needs to balance it with India by giving some kind of preferential market access to South Asian countries, as a bloc, so on the one hand, India becomes powerful and at the same time countries like Bangladesh solves its demographic problems and Pakistan solves its extremism problem. Similar access should be given to low labor cost countries in ASEAN such as Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. There should be a deliberate push to take manufacturing away from PRC so it cannot utilize the lower cost labors in its interior and thus continue to achieve a high continuous growth rate. An economic attack to curb PRC's rise would be a more prudent route than an expensive hegemonic design with bases and fomenting insurgency at weak spots.

US permanent presence in Afghanistan or Korea/Japan is expensive and destabilizing, it should remove itself so regional powers can bring their own balance, it should reassert only in special cases when there is a necessity. Perhaps one good way to do this would be to maintain permanent bases, but reduce the personnel to absolute minimum, so there is the option of making a swift come back in short notice, when the need suddenly arises.
Last edited by AKalam on 17 Aug 2010 16:57, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manishw »

Ameen Akalam Ji Another great post wish it all comes true though I have
three doubts
1). Whether unkil will play such a benevolent role.
2).Pakis, talibs etc. don't seem to be going that way and
3).Whether a newer version will evolve.

With all the EJ work being stepped up things seem to be going in a wrong
direction IMHO.
I think only time will tell us that and we will have to wait.
JMT
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by AKalam »

RajeshA wrote:
AKalam wrote:
If there is a way to do it, Article 370 should be scrapped, with consultation from Kashmir local leadership or by a referendum there, if required. IMHO it is not good for Kashmir or India.
AKalam ji,

Article 370 is actually symbolic for the value India gives to the concept that the prevalent ethnicity of a region should not be overrun by outsiders. In fact, India is putting this moral value on a higher pedestal than it deserves, since Kashmir has always belonged to the core of Indian Civilization, and Kashmir should have been integrated many a springs ago. In any case, India has already paid our respects to this value for the last 62 years and it is more than enough.
AKalam wrote:About Chinese preeminence in Asia, I wish it was different, but they already achieved it and are on their way to compete with the US. But India's day might come soon after, there is a very good probability.
The preeminent power in Asia is still USA, and it will remain so for quite some time, at least for the next two decades. USA and India have some serious differences
  • Support for Pakistan
  • Enmity with Iran
  • Rivalry with Russia
These dynamics would stay so for the next two decades at least as well. The general thinking on BRF is that Pakistan could survive for two more decades and then it will collapse, taking all the plans of its patrons along with it. Iran could also find a solution in the next two decades. Either USA would subdue Iran (unlikely) or Iran would muscle itself into a position, where USA would learn to live with it. Rivalry with Russia is dissipating as the glaciers of Cold War melt and the Cold War warriors die out.

The point is, in the next 20 years, a declining power like USA and a rising power like India could be forced to enter into an alliance for containing China. Such an alliance would still be formidable enough to not allow China preeminence in Asia, especially as PRC becomes more threatening.

There are several unknowns as far as India's capacity to share in the burden of such an alliance is concerned, but it is not an impossible task.

As yet, nothing is decided.


RajeshA ji,

Sorry for the delay in my reply.

I understand and respect the generous and idealistic concept behind Art. 370. It seems to me that GoI has gotten into some kind of legal bind with this thing, although I am not sure what the exact mechanisms are to repeal this.

There are other ways to go about stabilizing Kashmir valley. The population there is about 7-8 million. It should not be hard for a rising India to buy off this entire population bit by bit, let me explain how:

- the local Pandit and Sikh families who were expelled could be encouraged to move back in a comprehensive plan to develop the Kashmir valley
- more English medium schools should be established and scholarships should be given to the best and brightest students to go to Universities in other parts of India. Once they graduate, they should be placed in govt. or corporate positions in major economic centers such Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore etc., this way the best and brightest (the elite of Kashmir) should be integrated with Indian economic mainstream, so automatically they develop a sense of belonging. Now I am sure that this is already been happening, but it could be enhanced and accelerated with a deliberate GoI strategy and funding
- to solve unemployment problem, industries that has potential in that area should be established with prioritized loan financing to create employment and here the repatriated Pandits and Sikhs could play a key role as entrepreneurs and managerial class, non-Kashmiri skilled people should also be allowed to move there to help with relevant industries
- unskilled labors should not be allowed to settle there from rest of India as it will exacerbate unemployment problem

If people are busy with economic activity and they see a future for themselves, then IMHO no one will be interested to rock the boat and listen to Pakistani loosers. The strategy so far has been ineffective and the target being a small population compared to India's size and available resources, it should not be difficult to implement within a decade. Once they are fully integrated and happy, then they will by themselves gladly vote to repeal that article IMHO, if there is still a need to repeal it

You are correct that USA as the global hegemon is still the preeminent power in Asia, but USA is kind of a "nonresident" or foreign power, who needs significant resources and efforts to project its power to such a distant location from its home.

US support for Pakistan will remain as long as there is extremism in this area and Pakistan's help is needed to fight and root out this extremism (the standard US justification to stay engaged in Af-pak area), although people in this forum are of the view that Pakistan itself is the core, center and root cause of this extremism. To be specific, as long as there is a US base in Afghanistan (for rooting out extremism or for other geo-strategic reasons, such as to be close to former Soviet Central Asia and China's border), supply route will be needed over Pakistan. So this difference will remain.

US and Iran relationship or the lack of it has a long history. India wants to utilize Iran for access to Central Asia and as a source of hydro-carbon energy. So this difference will also remain.

US rivalry with Russia is no longer a rivalry between peer powers. But Russia wants to continue to feel and show that it is still a peer power of the USA, as the Soviet Union more or less was, to a large extent. This difference is already fading and will continue to fade with every passing year as Russia remains important mainly as a supplier of military/space technology, energy, minerals and surplus food stuff from its vast farmlands. To illustrate this point further, Russian GDP is 12th in the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... nominal%29

Future is hard to predict, so we will have to wait and see what happens in Af-pak and Iran situation, whether and how long they remain as they are. Its possible they will remain static, but its more possible that things will change.

Please see above post about my impression about G3, namely the complicated relationship dynamics between US, PRC and India.

It is possible for the US/EU to attack PRC economically and reduce its growth rate and shift its market access to other low cost manufacturing centers in South Asia and ASEAN, but US being in debt and PRC providing much of that debt, it is difficult to see how likely this scenario will be.

Now, military alliance is good, but it is only useful in specific conflict or protecting the economic lifelines unless the alliance is more comprehensive and provides for enhanced economic relationship that results in transfer of wealth and technology. So it is the state of the economy, or to go to further root, the socio-economic level reached by a society with its skilled and educated manpower (human resources) that determines the power of a nation. An alliance is really useful only when it helps in those regards.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RajeshA »

AKalam wrote:IMHO, it was a strategic mistake by the US (EU was forced to tag along later), just because of the greed of a few businessmen, to put all their eggs in one basket. Instead of giving the entire manufacturing market to PRC, in the name of free trade, to take advantage of authoritarian govt. and slave labor, so the trading businesses and companies like Walmart and other retailers could maximize their profit. They should have spread the market access to other low cost manufacturing centers, in ASEAN and South Asia, who could compete easily with PRC, if given the opportunity with the help of some quota and tariff. Its a little too late for that now, but still the US/EU should think about strategic implications when corporations make their business decisions. Free trade and maximizing profit looks great for short term profit making, but it can be destabilizing in the medium or longer term, which may end up costing a lot more to curb a rogue power that became overblown in too short a time, without developing an adequate sense of responsibility.

As PRC has become way too strong already, the West needs to balance it with India by giving some kind of preferential market access to South Asian countries, as a bloc, so on the one hand, India becomes powerful and at the same time countries like Bangladesh solves its demographic problems and Pakistan solves its extremism problem. Similar access should be given to low labor cost countries in ASEAN such as Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. There should be a deliberate push to take manufacturing away from PRC so it cannot utilize the lower cost labors in its interior and thus continue to achieve a high continuous growth rate. An economic attack to curb PRC's rise would be a more prudent route than an expensive hegemonic design with bases and fomenting insurgency at weak spots.
A redistribution of manufacturing capacity is the key to a stable Asia.

India is signing a Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) with Japan by the end of the year. Even as Japan has economic partnership agreements (EPA) with many countries, like with countries of ASEAN, Australia, Chile, Mexico, South Korea and Switzerland, Japan does not have with China. Japan has already agreed to financially and technically support the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor, which would cost around 90 billion USD. A Dedicated Freight Corridor (DFC) supported by Japan is also in the pipeline.

An India-EU FTA is also on the cards, but there are serious reservations in India with respect to patent law and EU's agricultural subsidies. Should India find some way to proceed without giving in too much, that too would boost manufacturing in India.

Since 1st January, 2010 there exists an India-ASEAN FTA. India is considering another FTA with Thailand. With Singapore India has a Comprehensive Economic Cooperation Agreement since 2005.

All these developments are designed to increase India's manufacturing base even further. It will take some time to find out, if India is able to translate all these FTAs into an industrial base which can compete with that of PRC.

In the end it not just about FTAs but rather whether India can provide the industrial infrastructure (land, power, cargo handling, etc) to attract the world's manufacturing capacity to India as well as build its own.
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