Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Jun 2014 03:58

Pakistan negotiating MI-35 helicopter deal‏ with Russia: envoy

By Mateen Haider
Published a day ago

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has placed an order to Russia for purchase of the latest MI-35 Helicopters for multipurpose use including fighting terrorism, Russian Ambassador to Pakistan Alexey Y. Dedov told a news conference at the Russian embassy in Islamabad.

"The deal is still being negotiated between Russian and Pakistani defence officials and hopefully would be finalised soon," Dedov told the media.

The Russian envoy said there has been never any ban on the sale of Russian military equipment to Pakistan.

"There is ongoing cooperation with Pakistan in the field of defence and counter-terrorism and security," Dedov said.

He also informed the media that Adviser on National Security and Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz would be visiting the Russian city of Kazan to participate in the "5th International Meeting of High-Level Officials Responsible for Security Matters from 18-20 June, 2014.

Sartaj Aziz would also meet Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov during the visit, the envoy said.

Dedov also reiterated the desire of the Russian Federation to strengthen its bilateral relations with Pakistan in all spheres.

The Russian envoy while stating concern over rising incidents of terrorism in Pakistan, expressed sympathies with the victims and offered cooperation to Pakistan in countering terrorism.

"Presence of Uzeb, Tajik, ETIM militants in Pakistan's tribal areas are posing a security threat to the entire region and collective efforts are needed to tackle this menace," Dedov remarked.

He also feared that after the withdrawal of Nato troops from Afghanistan, security would be a big challenge for the Afghan National Security Forces.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 12 Jun 2014 04:46

Russians seemingly have forgotten source of their Afghanistan debacle. Wait till another bomb goes up in Moscow and they will see the folly of partying with Pakis.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Jun 2014 07:30

Russian Foreign Minister Calls on Sushma - The Hindu

Mr. Rogozin [ Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin] who arrives next week to chair the inter-governmental commission, may face hard questions given that on his previous trip he had completely ruled out “delivering arms to India’s enemies,” in a reference to Moscow’s support for India against Pakistan. Some have since criticised Russia’s decision to lift its embargo and offer Mi-35 attack helicopters and defence equipment to Pakistan despite his words in 2012.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2014 07:59

this deal unmasks another issue that russia has not been able to develop or put in service in proper numbers(give its vast armed forces and territory) a dedicated gunship whether Alligator or Havoc. all remained at proto or lrip stage and died on the vine for lack of funding. their army still seems to mostly rely on the Hind and Mi17v which itself is a bit long in tooth and could do with some of the latest innovations we see in eurocopter, boeing or sikorsky products.

no wonder the apache had no issue winning the indian deal once it showed up for the fight. and it underscores why we need to retire the bulky Hinds asap and fill out the numbers with the LCH in huge numbers....LCH is to us what the apache and cobra was to the US..portable, agile, survivable and readily available.

if a better russian product like what the havoc could be were on table, the TSPians would love it over the Mi35. they already operate the highly survivable and nimble cobra in numbers.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 12 Jun 2014 09:47

Pakistani Army Aviation Cobras (AH-1F) spends more time on the ground--- at any time half the fleet is under servicing .. they are of Vietnam era..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2014 10:05

they have been refurbished and upgraded with night vision (c-nite suite) to bring them into 1990s std. not bleeding edge but ok. they are used to pound civilians and taliban in the frontier and to escort army convoys.

arun · Post by **arun** » 17 Jun 2014 10:15

X Posted from the STFUP thread. ..............

arun wrote:
Peregrine wrote:A CRONOLOGY OF THE LAST TEN MILITARY OPERATIONS IN PAKISTAN

1. RAH-I-HAQ-I, 2. RAH-I-HAQ- II, 3. SIRAT-I=MUSTAQEEM, 4. SHERDIL, 5. RAH-I-HAQ-III

6. BLACK THUNDERSTORM, 7. RAH-I-RAST, 8. RAH-I-NIJAT, 9. BREKHNA 10. ZARB-E-AZB

Claims that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and India “share the same language” appear grossly exaggerated. I am unable to discern the meaning of those operation names with the exception of 6, and moreover the operation names themselves leave me with the impression that they are in an alien language such as Arabic.

Turns out that “Zarb-e-Azb” is the name of the sword used by the founder of Mohammadden ideology and is thus derived from Arabic.

By using the name “Zarb-e-Azb” the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are certainly taking care of wrapping themselves in Green while taking on the Un-uniformed Jihadi’s of the TTP in N.Waziristan in this bout of Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden bloodletting.

Not just that, naming the N. Waziristan operation after the founder of Mohammaddenism’s sword accords well with the ”jihad fi sabillah” or ”jihad in the path of allah” part of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s motto of “iman, taqwa, jihad fi sabilillah” or “faith,piety and jihad in the path of allah”:

In Islamic history, Zarb-e-Azb is said to be the name of the sword the Holy Prophet (pbuh) used in the Battle of Badr — a battle that took place some 1,390 years ago and which changed the course of history as we know it

Above quoted excerpt from here:

And so it begins

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 17 Jun 2014 11:46

Recently I read a book called Outlaw Platoon - about a platoon of a US Mountain Division on the Af-Pak border. These guys were basically were engaged with the Haqqani network (HN) which received more than ample training, weapons and support from the PA.

The main point highlighted in the book was the degree to which the US Army underestimated the HN and the high degree of sophistication in tactics and weaponry displayed by the HN (there Small arms skills were still shyte though) was really surprising.

The reason i bring this up - THis is the same group the PA/PAF is going after and have been going after periodically over the last few years. Pakistani Infantry, Air Arms (CAS), Artillery are getting a wealth of experience fighting a tough enemy in tough terrain.

This is something we need to factor in a Indo-Pak senario.

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Jun 2014 13:44

Afghanistan’s Defense Minister Bismillah Mohammadi says the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are operating in mufti in parts of eastern Kunar province:

Pakistani soldiers operate in Afghanistan in civilian clothes

Predictable denial from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Pakistan rejects Afghan allegations regarding Kunar attacks: FO

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Jun 2014 13:53

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

RCase wrote:http://www.dawn.com/news/1114565/fatwa- ... zb-a-jihad

Now, its official that the Paki fistula is ACTUALLY fighting in the way of Allah. It is a JIHAD!

Indeed the Uniformed Jihadi's of the Punjabi dominated military of the Islamic Republic can claim to be adhering to the "jihad fi sabilillah" or "Jihad In the Path of Allah" part of their motto of "Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah" or translated "Faith, Piety and Jihad in the Path of allah".

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Jun 2014 13:07

What 'Zarb-e-..." all bakwass:

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 304171.ece

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 30 Jun 2014 21:11

A real incident in Pakistan...

A Taliban suicide bomber stopped and searched

by police, was found with a metal shield around

his penis.

Asked about the purpose of this protection,

his response was:

"I want to keep my penis intact after the explosion,

so as not to have sexual problems once I get my

72 virgins in heaven!"

Just wondering -

Is this the true interpretation of a Di;k head

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jul 2014 03:57

Interesting.

Russian Arms Supplies to Pakistan Not Aimed Against Third Countries - Moscow

Just out to make some money, that is all.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jul 2014 03:58

Russia brushes aside India's concerns, announces decision to supply arms to Pakistan

Indian analysts are watching the development with bated breath. In his article for RT, one analyst Rajeesh Sharma believes that the Russian move may be far shrewder than one can think. It may well be indicative of a China-Russia-Pakistan (CRP) axis, largely because of flawed policies of the Obama administration

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 01 Jul 2014 04:14

I don't see any reason for India to protest Mi-35 sales. This just means pakis have given up on the turkish A-129 copy and don't have money for any new chinese attack helos. Anyway IA and IAF have no interest in Mi-35 or Mi-28 .

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Jul 2014 07:54

NRao wrote:Russia brushes aside India's concerns, announces decision to supply arms to Pakistan

Indian analysts are watching the development with bated breath. In his article for RT, one analyst Rajeesh Sharma believes that the Russian move may be far shrewder than one can think. It may well be indicative of a China-Russia-Pakistan (CRP) axis, largely because of flawed policies of the Obama administration

A vacuum got created and it is filled rapidly by a shrewd power.

The retreating power is losing so fast that it is unable to maintain its old policies and relationship in the region.

Regional vacuum needs to kept alive and at the same time the sense of stability needs to be given

Pretense is to show the a major power has a benevolent policy in the region but keep the vacuum.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2014 09:53

TSP could well be the next market for the Mig-35 as the high-end product if more F-16 are not given.

russian can make more $ selling Mig-35 directly than just engines for J-10.

williams · Post by **williams** » 01 Jul 2014 10:09

Before we add more to this news piece. Look who reported it:

hsaqib is based in Rāwalpindi, Punjab, Pakistan, and is a Reporter on Allvoices.

So it could be just TSP wet dream. Why would Russians abandon a cash cow like India to supply the beggars next door. They are no fools.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jul 2014 20:33

arun wrote:Afghanistan’s Defense Minister Bismillah Mohammadi says the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are operating in mufti in parts of eastern Kunar province:

Pakistani soldiers operate in Afghanistan in civilian clothes

Predictable denial from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Pakistan rejects Afghan allegations regarding Kunar attacks: FO

Close on the heels of events in Kunar Province, Khama News reports that Rangin Dadfar Spanta, National Security Advisor to Afghanistan’s President says that the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are supporting the ununiformed Jihadi’s in Helmand:

Dr. Rangin Dadfar Spanta, national security advisor to President Hamid Karzai, said Monday that Pakistani forces have direct link in deadly clashes in souther Helmand province.

Spanta said he is still doubtful regarding Pakistan’s sincere cooperation in fight against terrorism …………………….

Read it all here: Spanta says Pakistan has direct link in Helmand clashes

Tolonews reports that Afghanistan’s Chief of Army Staff Shir Mohammad Karimi has chipped in and says that the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are supporting the ununiformed Jihadi’s in Helmand:

"The Taliban fighters who are active here are supported by the military of Pakistan and Pakistani Taliban," Karimi said.

Read it all here: Security Officials Visit Helmand After Clashes

Predictably the Islamic Republic of Pakistan denies involvement in the national activity of fomenting Mohammadden Terrorism in other countries:

Pakistan rejects allegations of involvement in Helmand clashes

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2014 09:15

JANES:First Block 2 JF-17s under construction in Pakistan

Production of the first two of 50 Block 2 JF-17s on order by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is now well under way at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, with the first expected to fly by the end of the year.

The Block 2 JF-17 has several capability increases over the Block 1s, but the main boost to the PAF as well as to export potential is the installation of an air-to-air refuelling system. One aircraft has been fitted with a refuelling probe, which protrudes from the right side of the fuselage just behind the cockpit, sitting forward of the pilot's position. It is being used for flight trials.

However, this modification will not appear in Block 2 aircraft until midway through the production at the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF), probably in early 2016, PAF officials said. Coupled with software enhancements, other new features include an upgrade to the avionics system that works around China's Nanjing KLJ-7 radar.

As a result, the Block 2s can add the Chinese-designed C-802 anti-ship missile and SD-10A beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile to the Block 1s' existing armoury, which includes Mk 82/84 dumb bombs and the PL-5-EII short-range air-to-air missile. All the Block 1s will eventually be upgraded with the Block 2 improvements.

With an urgent need to export JF-17s, a two-seater will be built in the Block 2 time frame. The PAF had always said that a two-seater is not urgent, but Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt now admits that a dual seater is a necessity. "We realise that it is required, because the air forces interested in buying JF-17 want one," he said.

PAF pilots currently converting to JF-17 are accumulating around 25 hours on a JF-17 simulator operational at Kamra, where one of the two operational squadrons is based. Nearly all the Block 1s have now been delivered to the PAF, which has a current requirement for 150 to replace the ageing F-7P and Mirage III/Vs.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Jul 2014 13:52

is that IFR probe correct ??? why is it facing backwards ???

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Jul 2014 13:58

That is the IFR probe and it is facing forward. But it gives an impression initially in this photo of facing backward.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 02 Jul 2014 21:23

Looks like the probe it is going to
1. Have an impact from visibility POV from the cockpit
2. Not being retractable, however minimal, will have a drag penalty

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 21:26

primitive but it is what they have access to.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Jul 2014 22:56

Its from South African Denel Aviation. Same can be seen on their Atlas Cheetah fighter. This version will be their FOC version with BVR and other ASM weapon integrated.

At least they didn't waited for MK 2 version until they committed to 200+ bunders.

titash · Post by **titash** » 02 Jul 2014 23:29

Sid wrote:Its from South African Denel Aviation. Same can be seen on their Atlas Cheetah fighter. This version will be their FOC version with BVR and other ASM weapon integrated.

At least they didn't waited for MK 2 version until they committed to 200+ bunders.

True, they have been more farsighted than the IAF in that regard. Once must give credit where it is due.

If the IAF had pushed for a force of 500 LCA Mk-Is even 2-3 years ago, we could have been cranking out 2 squadrons/year of BVR fighters by now. We'd have replaced the Mig-21 interceptor force 1:1 with a more capable fighter today, could have re-manufactured those Mk-Is into AESA/GE-414 equipped Mk-IIs 4-5 years down the line, and laid the foundation for a strong aerospace industry + significant exports

One more interesting point. The pakis claimed IFR was needed for exports...scarcely germane...which fourth world country that imports chinese fighters even has air to air refueling capability? In fact, Pakistan has air to air refueling capability, but how does it plan to use them given their geography and the fact that all their air bases are close to the border?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 23:44

The IAF claims "cost to nation" which argument only comes out w/LCA...never with 10,974 Crore upgrade packages for the Mirage 2000 or the 100,000 Crore procurement of the Rafale!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Jul 2014 19:20

so if only Block II can fire Sd-10A, are the block-I not capable of BVR combat and have a short range radar??? hmm Intresting

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 03 Jul 2014 19:39

Interesting indeed. Didn't they showcase a Thunder with SD-10s at airshows a few years back?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2014 20:05

titash wrote: In fact, Pakistan has air to air refueling capability, but how does it plan to use them given their geography and the fact that all their air bases are close to the border?

Attack from coast, refuelling over sea.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Jul 2014 20:36

shiv wrote:
titash wrote: In fact, Pakistan has air to air refueling capability, but how does it plan to use them given their geography and the fact that all their air bases are close to the border?
Attack from coast, refuelling over sea.

would not the IAF be able to pick up when these planes left their bases in TSP?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2014 20:54

their AARs are mainly to sustain the AWACS in the air. having AAR on the 4 fighters escorting the AWACS also solves that issue.
other use could be special mission strike by F-16 on south indian targets like goa or kochi or karwar by refueling deep over the arabia sea, both on ingress and egress legs.
I dont think they will risk flying a leg over land to hit hyderabad or blr though potentially the CFT equipped F-16 could do it but who knows.

if the AAR has to turn back for any issue or is detected and driven off its station in middle of arabian sea, those F-solah's wont be making it home though...either ditch over the sea with no help, or try the direct route back home over lohegaon and jamnagar and bhuj, crawling hip-deep in IAF fighters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2014 21:12

NRao wrote: would not the IAF be able to pick up when these planes left their bases in TSP?

That would be their job. Better still - all air bases will be taken out soon and kept inoperational.

I don't want to digress too much but it is the thought of comprehensive defeat in a conventional war that makes Pakis plan "unconventional" means like asymmetric war/terrorism, economic war (fake currency) and nuclear weapons.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 03 Jul 2014 21:51

When talking about fizzleya's quick adoption of bundar, one thing needs to be considered before projecting the same to IAF. The fizzleya was facing a crippling lack of airframes, this was evident in lack of average flying hours logged by their pilots. The solahs were facing a crunch due to spares while the mirage III ,Vs and f-7s were falling out of air, of the Q-5s the less said the better. Even the rose mirages were having spare problems. This leaves only T-37 and mushaks as their major flying platforms. The fizzleya had no choice but to accept bundar. The IAF on the other hand has a lot of capable platforms which allows LCA to mature before induction. I think that is the right course even if it is a bit risk averse.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2014 23:27

^^^^ + 1 for that. It seems only logical that since the TSP AF will only fly what can fly, it is desperate to add numbers.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 03 Jul 2014 23:35

K Mehta wrote:When talking about fizzleya's quick adoption of bundar, one thing needs to be considered before projecting the same to IAF. The fizzleya was facing a crippling lack of airframes, this was evident in lack of average flying hours logged by their pilots. The solahs were facing a crunch due to spares while the mirage III ,Vs and f-7s were falling out of air, of the Q-5s the less said the better. Even the rose mirages were having spare problems. This leaves only T-37 and mushaks as their major flying platforms. The fizzleya had no choice but to accept bundar. The IAF on the other hand has a lot of capable platforms which allows LCA to mature before induction. I think that is the right course even if it is a bit risk averse.

Meaning there is no motivation to go desi route for IAF? Its always urgent acquisition after another and dwindling Sqds but no long term plans.

Porkies learned the hard way but they learned anyway.

titash · Post by **titash** » 04 Jul 2014 03:20

Sid wrote:
K Mehta wrote:When talking about fizzleya's quick adoption of bundar, one thing needs to be considered before projecting the same to IAF. The fizzleya was facing a crippling lack of airframes, this was evident in lack of average flying hours logged by their pilots. The solahs were facing a crunch due to spares while the mirage III ,Vs and f-7s were falling out of air, of the Q-5s the less said the better. Even the rose mirages were having spare problems. This leaves only T-37 and mushaks as their major flying platforms. The fizzleya had no choice but to accept bundar. The IAF on the other hand has a lot of capable platforms which allows LCA to mature before induction. I think that is the right course even if it is a bit risk averse.
Meaning there is no motivation to go desi route for IAF? Its always urgent acquisition after another and dwindling Sqds but no long term plans.

Porkies learned the hard way but they learned anyway.

The PAF has sustained itself only because of Chinese largesse (F-6, F-7, and now JF-17). We were previously able to sustain a large MiG-21 & MiG-23BN/27 force precisely because of favorable terms from the Soviets.

The difference is the PAF still has a benefactor (the Chinese & Americans won't let them collapse...that would "alter the strategic balance in the subcontinent") while we have none today; that is the price we pay for being in a rough neighbourhood. Now that we have no benefactor, we have to pay top $$$ for rafale OR develop desi LCA/AMCA maal; IMHO the government will opt for a judicious mix of both options.

The PAF has not gone desi. It has simply imported more Chinese maal and painted them green. The JF-17 is as much a Pakistani product as our indigenously made Su-30MKIs. The LCA however is *purely* desi and shows some desire and foresight on the part of GoI (albeit not as much as we'd like). IMHO this is way more than Pakistan has done.

We are now beginning to see the very first usable desi products (not just sub systems) emerging from the stables...Agni 3/5, Pinaka, Akash, ALH Dhruv, ALH Rudra, LCH, LCA, etc. with many more on the table to follow (Nirbhay, Rustom, LOH, AMCA, AURA, etc.). Way ahead of Pakistan here.

But the IAF must stop pretending that it's only job is to fight air wars with the best machines money can buy. When there is no benefactor and no $$$ in the treasury, they must get their hands dirty just like the navy has. So in effect, necessity is the mother of invention...

member_27164 · Post by **member_27164** » 04 Jul 2014 10:49

Singha wrote:their AARs are mainly to sustain the AWACS in the air. having AAR on the 4 fighters escorting the AWACS also solves that issue.
other use could be special mission strike by F-16 on south indian targets like goa or kochi or karwar by refueling deep over the arabia sea, both on ingress and egress legs.
I dont think they will risk flying a leg over land to hit hyderabad or blr though potentially the CFT equipped F-16 could do it but who knows.

if the AAR has to turn back for any issue or is detected and driven off its station in middle of arabian sea, those F-solah's wont be making it home though...either ditch over the sea with no help, or try the direct route back home over lohegaon and jamnagar and bhuj, crawling hip-deep in IAF fighters.

i highly doubt f-16 coming from sea to strike goa/karwar. i am pretty much sure that IN's mig-29s would be tasked to secure arebian sea operating off goa and vikramaditya/vikrant. they will be supplimented by iaf's su30 operating off thanjavur and pune. this will create additional bubble over arebian sea and a LOT of risk to paki queens. with su-30 threat over sea they will need to refuel really far from see somewhere around east/ southeast of gwadar which will negate the advantage of refueling as they will need to travel more distance.
again as you say returning over land via pune, bhuj etc,, do you really think they will be able to 'return' to their bases? Pune and mumbai being highly strategic targets would have long range SAM cover to detect anything flying in the vicinity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2014 11:44

I didnt not say how many would be able to return, just that it was the last road home.
but in the interior of any country incl khanate, military radar coverage is really thin and usually nonexistent.
so they might pass over the west coast radar , disappear in the interior and then reappear in some SWAC radar a while later on outbound path. ppl are oriented to looking for targets outside the box and not inside . some might cleverly slip through esp if Cheen ELINT birds on wet lease have fed them daily briefings on our radar coverage quality and gaps. it is very hard to chase down supersonic planes in a tail chase situation.imagine a F-16 doing mach1.2 and a mirage2k at mach1.6 ... thats 400km approx differential per hour..65km catchup possible in 10mins. but neither can be at that speed remotely for an hour...10-15 mins probably. so if the F_16 cleverly skirts indian CAP patrol areas, SAM sites and airbases, they could be detected and even chased but not caught up with unless someone can block their path.

during ODS iraqi af though inferior did manage plenty of sorties. AWACS detected them early and vectored fighters, but often due to the distance they escaped back. Iraqi Mig25 esp was immune to anything the USN F-18s did. it used burst mode speed and height to dart around and escape.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 04 Jul 2014 13:46

The Al-Zarela tanks being used in zamzam e herbs have a unique config. Note no ERA or any other type of armor, railings as a defence for rpgs and tambu for gunners

Tambu closeup

Not for all tanks though.

Rohitvats and other Orbat fans, Check out the units used. Strange that they arent using their sooper dooper Al Khali dabbas.

The telibunnies have proliferated and mastered the use of rpgs. It has become their weapon of choice probably due to the high amount of damage caused. Note the high amounts used in Mehran and recent krachi attack. Below photos of recent krachi attack