Indian Space Programme Discussion

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Oct 2014 21:02

IITians don't go to ISRO and DRDO coz they would rather make more money writing useless software scripts for finance companies or hawking soaps for HLL. There are very few who would take up govt job.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Oct 2014 21:15

csaurabh wrote:Apart from the 'secular' nonsense at the end ( temples etc. ) Bidwai is fairly correct for the most part. Bureaucracy and red tape is a serious problem ( like it is in most govt. departments ), and there is a real disconnect between academia and industry esp. where Isro is concerned. They publish little, don't go to conferences much and are generally bad at PR.

The idea that Isro fails to attract talent is largely a myth. IITians don't join Isro because Isro doesn't recruit from IITs, that's pretty much it. Mangalyaan has nothing to do with it. And relations are bad now because of bureaucratic reasons. For example IITK built the rover for Chandrayaan mission three years ago, but then Isro refused to pay for it. It is still collecting dust in some lab now.

On the other hand Mahadevan Nair is full of sh!t as well. Some of his points are valid, but his whining just comes off as sour grapes. Many of Isro's problems today are due to the policies during his tenure.

If Bidwai wasn't a commie he would realize that it isn't a matter of choice between Mangalyaan and weather forecasting. India needs both.

P.S. I am currently pursuing Phd in IIST, and have studied in two IITs before ( IITK and IITB for bachelors and masters ).

It is false that ISRO does not attend campus interviews in IIT's - It does. In fact giving due credit to Madhavan Nair, the reason why IIST was started was when they came back empty handed from one of the IIT's during campus placements.
having said that the situation now has changed .While DRDO is still struggling for recruitment's the last announcement the ratio was 1:10000 applicants. From 2017 batch IIST will allow DRDO to also come for recruitment but till then ISRO has first right of refusal in IIST

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 19 Oct 2014 21:36

prasannasimha wrote: It is false that ISRO does not attend campus interviews in IIT's - It does. In fact giving due credit to Madhavan Nair, the reason why IIST was started was when they came back empty handed from one of the IIT's during campus placements.
having said that the situation now has changed .While DRDO is still struggling for recruitment's the last announcement the ratio was 1:10000 applicants. From 2017 batch IIST will allow DRDO to also come for recruitment but till then ISRO has first right of refusal in IIST

Believe me I know what I'm saying.
Isro came back from campus placements empty handed because they did dumb things like coming 2-3 months late when all the good people are placed already and then select solely on basis of GPA. That is when they even come at all. In 2009 for example, they didn't come at all ( I remember clearly ). And in the last 3 years they have stopped altogether. If they recruited smartly they would have no problem. Especially since the 6th Pay Commission has bumped up the payscale to good levels.

IIST is the brainchild of Manmohan Singh, it wasn't Isro's idea. Certainly I don't think Madhavan Nair had anything to do with it.

Bheeshma wrote:IITians don't go to ISRO and DRDO coz they would rather make more money writing useless software scripts for finance companies or hawking soaps for HLL. There are very few who would take up govt job.

Thank you for your deep insight. I am sure you are an expert in this matter.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Oct 2014 21:58

Actually it was the brain child of Madhavan Nair and Abdul Kalam who took the proposol to Manmohan Singh. There is an article about how it was started and once the idea was mooted it was started within 7 months. I will post it when I can trace it.
Once IIST was started they opened up 50% of vacancies to open recruitment. Even now it still recruits and as I mentioned applicant to vacancy ratio is 10000 to 1

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 19 Oct 2014 22:03

Bheeshma wrote:IITians don't go to ISRO and DRDO coz they would rather make more money writing useless software scripts for finance companies or hawking soaps for HLL. There are very few who would take up govt job.

This is not entirely true

1. It’s a myth IITians are the epitome of talent. They are as good as other engineers, and I can tell this from experience of managing a team of both.

2. And IITians are not making useless software scripts for finance companies or hawking soaps for HLL. You should understand; Indian Software Industry is the only world-class industry we could offer to the world at this moment of time. And in reality Indian software industry stops a large amount of brain drain- by preventing IITians from seeking jobs outside India. And all engineers including IITians make a sizable chunk of money; as they deserve it, as these are pivotal in maintaining foreign–exchange reserves.

3. Linking performance to salary would be something Indian PSU’s can think on, as that they might attract more talent irrespective of IITian or where they come from.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 19 Oct 2014 22:18

bharats wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:IITians don't go to ISRO and DRDO coz they would rather make more money writing useless software scripts for finance companies or hawking soaps for HLL. There are very few who would take up govt job.
This is not entirely true

1. It’s a myth IITians are the epitome of talent. They are as good as other engineers, and I can tell this from experience of managing a team of both.

2. And IITians are not making useless software scripts for finance companies or hawking soaps for HLL. You should understand; Indian Software Industry is the only world-class industry we could offer to the world at this moment of time. And in reality Indian software industry stops a large amount of brain drain- by preventing IITians from seeking jobs outside India. And all engineers including IITians make a sizable chunk of money; as they deserve it, as these are pivotal in maintaining foreign–exchange reserves.

3. Linking performance to salary would be something Indian PSU’s can think on, as that they might attract more talent irrespective of IITian or where they come from.

It has become a fashion to look down upon the IT/BPO Industry --- but it has contributed hugely to our forex reserve and building of domestic economy through higher disposable income of new generation----which in turn has made it possible to invest in technology and defense.... ---

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 19 Oct 2014 22:22

Siding Spring is 40 minutes due Mars encounter. MOMs images of the comet to be realesed by tomm afternoon.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Oct 2014 22:32

Every sector has to develop for a wholesome development of the country.There is no point denigrating one segment over another. The very IT Industry is required for Avionics in the space industry and so on and so forth. So arguing over that is useless.
What is really required is to attract talent. Like it or not Governmental jobs pay less but then Money cannot be the sole factor for satisfaction or else everyone with Money would be happy.Talent attraction is multifaceted and that needs to be addressed. people do forget that things like MOM and Chandrayaan have played their role in attracting talent to ISRO.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 19 Oct 2014 23:17

Watching Sliding Spring live coverage from http://live.slooh.com/stadium/live/come ... ch-to-mars

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 19 Oct 2014 23:28

Images from Slooh

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 19 Oct 2014 23:28

Does any one know about avatar and hstdv and rlv programmes. Through google I was not able get the correct answer as to which agency is dealing with which project. One credible link says isro has got nothing to do with avatar and other link with clear images like drdo written on hsdtv model clearly speaks that it is a DRDO project so what is isro and hypersonic vehicle relation???

Link 1
http://www.idsa.in/~idsa/resources/parl ... OJECT.html

Link 2

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 20 Oct 2014 00:01

prasannasimha wrote:When do you think they will ever be ready ?

There is nothing like 100% ready. But I suggest the capital investment if following area and gradually progress to interplanetary travels ~2020. The below are on top of my mind.

Propulsion
1. Rockets that could propel 4 tones to GEO by 2017
2. Rockets that could propel 6-8 tone to GEO by 2020
3. Unified Launch Vehicles by 2020
4. Ionic and electric thrusters for satellites by 2020
5. Reliable Human launch vehicle capability by 2023.
6. Scram-jet propulsion by 2025

Satellites
1. Lease communication transponders (other providers) ~50 no by 2016
2. Launch INSAT series by external launch service provider to limit deficiency <10% by 2018
3. Design new satellite power bus to enhance high power out satellite series of ~6-8 tones
4. Reach ~50cm resolution cartography satellites by 2020
5. Chandrayaan#3- recover and fly back with moon dust by 2020 (potential)
6. MOM#2- recover and fly back with martial soil by 2023 (potential)
7. Rendezvous an docking in space by 2023
8. Enhance IRNSS to additional satellites for world coverage by 2025 (potential)
9. Any other planets, sun and outer solar system after 2025 (potential)

Space Engineering
1. Solar cells that would produce more power per sq area.
2. Radiation hardening studies through SREs by 2018
3. Micro gravity studies crystal growth, pathogen studies etc. by 2020
4. Animals, particularly canines in space by 2020

Human Space Program
1. Fully autonomous three-ton ISRO Orbital Vehicle Crew Module (CM), Environmental control and Life Support System (ECLSS), Crew Escape System, etc. by 2017
2. First Human Space Program by 2025
3. Extra-vehicular activity by 2027
4. International Space Station docking activities by 2027 (potential)

Others
1. Third launch pad at SDSC by 2020
2. A new space centre for commercial launches by 2025

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 07:05

So why is it a crimne to jump start interplanetary observation. If we did not do it we would have neither appreciated the problems nor attempted to find solutions nor could we have tailored our progress. We would not magically become better then.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Oct 2014 08:17

Crew module dispatched to Sriharikota - T.S.Subramanian, The Hindu

In the run-up to the lift-off of India’s gigantic Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-Mark III) in November 2014, the unmanned crew module it will put into orbit and the vehicle’s equipment bay were flagged off on October 17 from the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC), Thiruvananthapuram, to Sriharikota.

The crew module and the equipment bay had undergone elaborate checks and tests at the VSSC before they were dispatched to the Satish Dhawan Space Centre at Sriharikota, said VSSC director M.C. Dathan. They would reach the spaceport at Sriharikota on Sunday night. The equipment bay houses the vehicle’s electronic packages for issuing various commands to it.

Crucial mission

This maiden GSLV-MkIII flight is an important mission for the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) because it will put the unmanned crew module into orbit. It is a precursor to ISRO’s ambitious plans to send two Indian astronauts into space.

The crew module will return to the earth the same day. It will splash down in the sea, off the Andaman archipelago and will be recovered by the ISRO and the Coast Guard personnel.

“The integration of the GSLV-MkIII is going on in full swing at Sriharikota,” said Mr. Dathan. The vehicle’s two huge strap-on booster motors, each with 200 tonnes of solid propellants, have been assembled and strung around the core stage, which will use 110 tonnes of liquid propellants. Above this liquid core stage will be the indigenous cryogenic stage, which will use 25 tonnes of propellants. In the coming mission, the cryogenic stage will not fire. It will be a passive stage. It will not carry cryogenic propellants. It will carry 25 tonnes of simulated fuel.

“Next weekend, the cryogenic stage will be moved to the vehicle and integrated with it. The 3.65-tonne crew module will undergo checks for 16 to 20 days. By mid-November, the unmanned crew module will be integrated with the vehicle. Then, it takes another two weeks for the launch,” Mr. Dathan added. If the weather does not help, the lift-off will be in the first week of December.

The entire flight will last 1,109 seconds. At an altitude of 126 km, the crew module will get separated and start descending towards the earth. Three huge parachutes, made by the Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment, Agra, will open up in a sequence to decelerate the crew module. The GSLV-MkIII is the biggest and heaviest rocket built by the ISRO, standing 42.4 metres tall and weighing 630 tonnes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2014 08:33

venkat_r wrote: Indian space program has been a one trick pony with PSLV for some time and GSLV's success is necessary to take that to the next level. If we can get reusable launcher, better. Seems like Nair wants ISRO to choose a category and work to lead the pack in that category - not a bad idea and also possible for ISRO.

In other words Madhavan Nair wants ISRO to be a one-trick pony. But it's already a one-trick pony as you have pointed out, so what's the problem? is it the new trick that is causing heartburn?

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 20 Oct 2014 08:42

prasannasimha wrote:So why is it a crimne to jump start interplanetary observation. If we did not do it we would have neither appreciated the problems nor attempted to find solutions nor could we have tailored our progress. We would not magically become better then.

The main concern is the prioritization and thereby diversion of resources not hitting much needed areas. If we focus interplanetary missions now, that would delay other programs, and I have given the reasoning earlier. Also with current technology capability, the value realisation for both engineering and science is thin. The prominent limiting factor of a larger payload capacity to GEO & further is the much needed capacity as of today. And ISRO needs the leadership and attitude akin to Prof. Satish Dhawan who channelized every available resource to build solid propulsion and satellite capability than show offs, and we are reaping the benefits right now.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 09:04

So PSLV when launched in the next year solves those issues so why the angst? So you say India did not benefit from MOM? So then why Cjandrayaan too?
Hasn't launching MOM increased the profile of ISRO. It has already increased the commercial respectability. Added new Technological now how. Its spin offs will be seen in astrophysics etc. If we go along this way why did we need to have all this. We could have hired rockets and transponders and not waste infrastructure on these and concentrated on toilets. Growth needs to be multidimensional.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 09:04

So PSLV when launched in the next year solves those issues so why the angst? So you say India did not benefit from MOM? So then why Cjandrayaan too?
Hasn't launching MOM increased the profile of ISRO. It has already increased the commercial respectability. Added new Technological now how. Its spin offs will be seen in astrophysics etc. If we go along this way why did we need to have all this. We could have hired rockets and transponders and not waste infrastructure on these and concentrated on toilets. Growth needs to be multidimensional.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 09:12

Should read GSLV. Anyway if you think ISRO is keeping quite please count number of launches done pre and post 2009 and for that matter yearly launch rates of the last 3 years and satellites launched and that will itself put things in perspective.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 09:12

Should read GSLV. Anyway if you think ISRO is keeping quite please count number of launches done pre and post 2009 and for that matter yearly launch rates of the last 3 years and satellites launched and that will itself put things in perspective.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2014 09:18

prasannasimha wrote:So PSLV when launched in the next year solves those issues so why the angst? So you say India did not benefit from MOM? So then why Cjandrayaan too?
Hasn't launching MOM increased the profile of ISRO. It has already increased the commercial respectability. Added new Technological now how. Its spin offs will be seen in astrophysics etc. If we go along this way why did we need to have all this. We could have hired rockets and transponders and not waste infrastructure on these and concentrated on toilets. Growth needs to be multidimensional.

There are likely spinoffs in materials sciences and chemistry.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 09:23

Different people will have different perspectives on this. What is a fact is that we have taken a change in the trajectory course and the civilian establishment has concurred. Look at the 25 year vision statement that ISRO has made and all that you have mentioned is there and not neglected. Anyway this is an endless debate so not worth pursuing but with one caveat -we are succesfully achieving our stated goals for the Mars mission and more. That is undeniable.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 20 Oct 2014 11:07

shiv wrote:
venkat_r wrote: Indian space program has been a one trick pony with PSLV for some time and GSLV's success is necessary to take that to the next level. If we can get reusable launcher, better. Seems like Nair wants ISRO to choose a category and work to lead the pack in that category - not a bad idea and also possible for ISRO.
In other words Madhavan Nair wants ISRO to be a one-trick pony. But it's already a one-trick pony as you have pointed out, so what's the problem? is it the new trick that is causing heartburn?

Lets not forget that it was the one-trick pony of the space shuttle program ( which was supposed to solve everything ) that took NASA off the rails for over 30 years, from which it is still to recover.

In fact the one thing NASA still excels at is space and planetary exploration/research. Everything else has been grabbed by Russians and private space companies. In fact the revolution in private space industry happening in the last 10 years came about specifically because of deficiencies in the NASA administration.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 20 Oct 2014 11:42

This is an endless debate. Both sides have valid points. We need both dreamers and realists. Madhavan Nair is a realist who believes GSLV should be the priority. Missions like MOM energise the dreamers in ISRO and inspire other dreamers to join ISRO. So it has its own place.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 20 Oct 2014 11:43

This is an endless debate. Both sides have valid points. We need both dreamers and realists. Madhavan Nair is a realist who believes GSLV should be the priority. Missions like MOM energise the dreamers in ISRO and inspire other dreamers to join ISRO. So it has its own place.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 20 Oct 2014 12:59

Meanwhile:

Oct 20, 2014

The fourth orbit raising operation of IRNSS-1C is successfully completed by firing the Apogee Motor for 178 seconds, in the evening of Oct 19, 2014. The orbital parameters are: Perigee Altitude: 35647 km, Apogee Altitude: 35718 km. Orbit period: 23hr 50min 47.14sec.

http://isro.org/pslv-c26/c26-status.aspx

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 20 Oct 2014 13:01

deleted

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 20 Oct 2014 14:27

In program management, we set our priorities right and set timeline for deliverables. The time is the essence and then we work backwards to strategize how the resource need to optimally bring about to achieve the deadlines. What we DO NOT is, changing priorities in the course (distractions). If we do, we might go ballistic and will overshoot our deadlines. The decree is resource is scarce and optimal usage is insight. And ISRO like any other PSU does not have unlimited sources, whether its manpower or funding, spending wisely for common goals and value realization is the wisdom.

Now let me tell you one fact ISRO is different from DRDO. The reason is DRDO virtually makes (attempts) everything in the world, and realizes none on time. A distraction is anything which deviates from original vision. More distractions are a cause of worries to us. ISRO was blessed with a strong legacy of leaders from the past, who believed on similar lines. As well I am not sympathetic that the civilian authorities have blessed ISRO with the deviation in original vision; the elected officials can always pull plug anytime. Your only hope is delivering on time with right priorities set. ISRO was upbeat and met deadlines because it was very closer to the delivery model of an ITES organization. The golden rule is delivering Right Deliverables on time OR you are History!

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 15:12

While we arm chair warriors are debating MOM sends a message
Phew! Experience of a lifetime. Watched the #MarsComet #SidingSpring whizzing past the planet. I'm in my orbit, safe and sound.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 15:15

ISRO met all deadlines?

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 20 Oct 2014 16:07

prasannasimha wrote:ISRO met all deadlines?

Not true that ISRO has met all deadlines. The GSLV MK2 program was originally meant for 1990s. We are now in the second decade and the program is still not reached planned reliability rating. One thing interesting is the hesitance to divulge the deadlines in ISRO. On HSP Chairman answered "We don't have a deadline yet. We did a detailed study in 2006 and found we have the capability to develop systems to put two astronauts in an orbit 300-400km above Earth for seven days. Our GSLV-MIII (in the making) is a potential candidate to carry our astronauts to space. Our scientists are working on everything from crew module, life support and co-escape system to flight suits and space food." My point is if ISRO need to come with better results, timelines are important and then stick to it. Simply answer like; we will be ready, when everything is ready and working. Let’s ISRO announce its future plan with details and timelines (most future programs declared at website doesn’t have timeline).

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 16:46

Now I am getting confused. In one statement you mention ISRO met all deadlines whereas DRDO doesn't. Then you say ISRO doesn't meet its deadlines and as per your statement doesn't even have dearly best. The argument he's more curious.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 16:47

Now I am getting confused. In one statement you mention ISRO met all deadlines whereas DRDO doesn't. Then you say ISRO doesn't meet its deadlines and as per your statement doesn't even have dearly best. The argument he's more curious.

bharats · Post by **bharats** » 20 Oct 2014 17:26

prasannasimha wrote:Now I am getting confused. In one statement you mention ISRO met all deadlines whereas DRDO doesn't. Then you say ISRO doesn't meet its deadlines and as per your statement doesn't even have dearly best. The argument he's more curious.

It’s more complicated to articulate. When the original GSLV deadline was missed, the program was reprioritized. The original project constraints which were not fully imagined, e.g. Infamous Cryogenic case, and Soviet Union disintegration and later Russia pulling back from original contract, design complexities were under-estimated. The project then slipped to 2000 and met success by early 2010. And I would still give credits to ISRO owning the complexity.The impression ISRO met deadlines is only as comparable what DRDO has achieved/delivered (meaning overall mission objective is delivered), as most DRDO project are forever and ever. But what is alarming are the ‘distractions’ I have mentioned and the urge to fetch the low hanging-fruits. We cannot have the long standing core-development projects hidden behind diversified project objectives, as we do not have the means to support everything. Had been we started doing interplanetary projects 10 years ago, GSLV Mk2 would have been a reality by 2020s. Remember the MOM capability existed very long back.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 17:54

So DRDO did not have any sanctions or Technology denials etc etc? Funny they launch an Agni 5 a Nirbhay and so on and so forth. Have to also make army rations ,guns battle gear etc etc etc but cannot achieve anything. Hmmmm
Your arguments are not convincing.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 17:58

MOM. Capability did not exist till we developed the HP variant, set up the deep space network and had developed ability to make certain payloads etc. Its not that you can just fling a satellite to Mars. No wonder 50 % of the attempts failed. You trivialize it. Achieving the high argument of perigee during launch itself is a daunting job.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 18:45

All India Radio News ‏@airnewsalerts 4m4 minutes ago
ISRO Espionage Case: Kerala HC directs state govt to reconsider its decision against three police officers.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 18:45

Noose around Sreekumar starts.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Oct 2014 19:09

ravip wrote:Does any one know about avatar and hstdv and rlv programmes. Through google I was not able get the correct answer as to which agency is dealing with which project. One credible link says isro has got nothing to do with avatar and other link with clear images like drdo written on hsdtv model clearly speaks that it is a DRDO project so what is isro and hypersonic vehicle relation???

Link 1
http://www.idsa.in/~idsa/resources/parl ... OJECT.html

Link 2

ISRO's scramjet program is different from HSTDV. Istro already demonstrated their scramjet vehicle in 2010:-
http://www.isro.org/newsletters/scripts ... 010mar2010

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 20 Oct 2014 19:54

Dr. Radhakrishnan said today in a short speech that there would be a big meeting on 5th-7th Nov with the PM and all the ministers present.

Methinks a big restructuring is on the cards..