Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Nov 21, 2015

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2015 22:33

just for the record, this govt never said no to talks categorically, that's not what that SAARC invite signified. it wanted talks to happen on its terms and not on paki terms.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 11 Dec 2015 22:53

Without Cricket matches, Paki board is almost going bankrupt. They have no money to sponsor league matches or make sure the bench is staffed. No domestic matches have happened in a long time, in matches where they visit another country, bulk of the money goes to the board of the hosting country (telecast rights, stadium fees, organization fees etc). Not having money is more than just a temporary setback. That means less stadiums, matches, incentives for youngsters to play.

Thats why Pakis want to play "home" matches in UAE, where they keep the bulk of the money. Pakis visiting India for a match is complicated -- SDREs will keep bulk of the money.

They are probably sending IK over to negotiate the cricket thing with Modi. Their board will be in pakistan if they dont make money soon. Thats why all the TFTA chest beating from their board chief (like the Dawn headline "War till victory" "victory on all fronts" the day they were surrendering in '71)

I hope a lesson beyond cricket has been learned from this. Money talks. We should find more ways of putting the economic squeeze on, thats the only thing that has worked so far vis-a-vis Pakistan.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Dec 2015 23:01

sukhish wrote:this guy is selling snake oil at best that's it. he does the same thing as the last GOI in each and every issue but wraps it up in a good speech that's it. arousing people with little difference in substance in the mantra. good for him, I hope opposition gives GOI hell time in rajya sabha.

Rubbish. Tell me what snake oil he tried to sell?

As for ModiJi Vs MMS, opposition can pick all holes they want, but ModiJi's primary focus has been on terror, and given India's limitations, he had to throw a few dog bones to TSP. MMS was never focused this much on terror, he had some grand "South Asia" vision, and fortunately BJP put an end to those nefarious designs.

I don't think anybody here will disagree that there has been a turn around. But the devil is in the details. Please read the joint statement if you haven't. The problem is that, yes, ModiJi and BJP did talk tough, but it was difficult to sustain as dealing with Pakis is intertwined with a lot of other issues. Thats where it gets complicated and why governance induces a dose of reality that electioneering and being in the opposition does not. But by no means ModiJi is selling any snake oil.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 11 Dec 2015 23:09

Karan M wrote:
sukhish wrote:everybody is trying to justify the talks now. I'am really surprised. two years back same folks would be ranting all over this forum if anybody from GOI suggested for talks with pak. amazing how perception changes for the same thing in little as two years. also about india giving beffeting reply to pak on the border and hence forcing pak to talk is laughable. has the terror incidents in J&k reduced by a single notch. every two to three weeks there are incidents happening. I was hoping GOI would do something cross border in pak as congress did not have the guts to do it (although they did it 1971). it all about glorification of MODI JI at the end of the day. why is even siachen or sir creek in the discussion. somebody in the forum was saying that MMS was about to give siachen to pak becuase it was part of discussion. so shall we conclude the same from MODIJI now ? when will sushma explain to parliament her justification of starting talks ? anyway she would deliver good speech and all the BR folks will get nice wet dreams. this was not the thing i was expecting from this iron man. may be he is iron man in his own house. the moment he saw the world perspective he had to cave in. good for him, time for him travel to some foriegn country and give a rousing speech now.

sukhish wrote:this guy is selling snake oil at best that's it. he does the same thing as the last GOI in each and every issue but wraps it up in a good speech that's it. arousing people with little difference in substance in the mantra. good for him, I hope opposition gives GOI hell time in rajya sabha.

your political choices aka INC are well known. kindly don't try and pretend to be a neutral observer.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1232744

in the same way your apetite to consuming snake oil is also well known. prepare yourself for the next rousing speech.

also there is no such thing as neutral observer, I don't even know where this term came from.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 11 Dec 2015 23:18

CRamS wrote:
sukhish wrote:this guy is selling snake oil at best that's it. he does the same thing as the last GOI in each and every issue but wraps it up in a good speech that's it. arousing people with little difference in substance in the mantra. good for him, I hope opposition gives GOI hell time in rajya sabha.
Rubbish. Tell me what snake oil he tried to sell?

As for ModiJi Vs MMS, opposition can pick all holes they want, but ModiJi's primary focus has been on terror, and given India's limitations, he had to throw a few dog bones to TSP. MMS was never focused this much on terror, he had some grand "South Asia" vision, and fortunately BJP put an end to those nefarious designs.

I don't think anybody here will disagree that there has been a turn around. But the devil is in the details. Please read the joint statement if you haven't. The problem is that, yes, ModiJi and BJP did talk tough, but it was difficult to sustain as dealing with Pakis is intertwined with a lot of other issues. Thats where it gets complicated and why governance induces a dose of reality that electioneering and being in the opposition does not. But by no means ModiJi is selling any snake oil.

have terror incidents been reduced in J&K, and by how much ? the same day there was an encounter in sopore. basically pak line of thought has been accecpted. isn't current GOI thinking south asia integration, otherwise why did she stressed about getting access to certral asia transit route. why are they egar to sign CEPA with sri lanka , what for ? do not keep justifying and pretend yourself as neutral observer.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Dec 2015 23:26

sukhishJi,

I am not a neutral observer. I am 100% pro BJP, pro ModiJi. And there is a reason for that: ModiJi and BJP are hard core nationalists albeits realists.

You want a black and white Paki policy. And we accept that is difficult. But ModiJi is trying to keep the focus on Paki terror, while trying to co-opt other neighbors in an integrated economic framework. Whats wrong with that? ModiJi has not sold India out like MMS and Congress did.

I will grant that there has been a reversal of policy. But why don't you look at the details and then decide whether ModiJi is different from MMS or not. Just don't be an impulsive Cong wallah just to do a gotcha on ModiJi.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 11 Dec 2015 23:29

Rahul M wrote:just for the record, this govt never said no to talks categorically, that's not what that SAARC invite signified. it wanted talks to happen on its terms and not on paki terms.

REALLY, so now we are talking on our terms ?
comprehensive dialogue including siachen , sir creek and J&K is our term ?
I know terror in our term but rest all are there pak terms to be neutral.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Dec 2015 23:34

Imran Khan invites Modi to visit Pakistan
( IK hiding, protecting is mush

http://nation.com.pk/national/11-Dec-20 ... t-pakistan

NEW DELHI: Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) chairman Imran Khan invited Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to visit Pakistan.The duo met in New Delhi on Friday evening. India’s Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson Vikas Swarup said on Twitter, “At his request, Pakistan MP and chairman of Tehreek-e-Insaf party, Imran Khan, called on PM Modi on Friday.”“They welcomed recent developments in bilateral relations and expressed hope that these would lead to closer cooperative ties between the two countries,” Swarup added. Further, the spokesperson said, “Imran Khan invited Modi to visit Pakistan.”Earlier, PTI’s central information secretary Shireen Mazari said on Twitter, “Chairman Khan is in New Delhi on the invitation of India Today. It is believed a meeting may also take place with Indian PM on latter’s invitation.”Mazari later added, “Chairman Imran Khan will be meeting Indian PM before he speaks at the India Today conference.”The PTI chairman left for New Delhi earlier today on a two-day visit to attend a conference on Indo-Pak relations. The event is being hosted by India Today.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Dec 2015 23:37

sukhish wrote:
Rahul M wrote:just for the record, this govt never said no to talks categorically, that's not what that SAARC invite signified. it wanted talks to happen on its terms and not on paki terms.
REALLY, so now we are talking on our terms ?
comprehensive dialogue including siachen , sir creek and J&K is our term ?
I know terror in our term but rest all are there pak terms to be neutral.

well, I didn't comment if the talks were actually taking place on our terms or not.

since you clearly think otherwise why dont you come up with a post clearly mentioning what our terms are vis-a-vis what paki terms are in stead of this breast beating rhetoric ?
after all, as they say, opinions are like that organ that pulls us to our daily pakistan, of only nuisance value.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 11 Dec 2015 23:41

CRamS wrote:sukhishJi,

I am not a neutral observer. I am 100% pro BJP, pro ModiJi. And there is a reason for that: ModiJi and BJP are hard core nationalists albeits realists.

You want a black and white Paki policy. And we accept that is difficult. But ModiJi is trying to keep the focus on Paki terror, while trying to co-opt other neighbors in an integrated economic framework. Whats wrong with that? ModiJi has not sold India out like MMS and Congress did.

I will grant that there has been a reversal of policy. But why don't you look at the details and then decide whether ModiJi is different from MMS or not. Just don't be an impulsive Cong wallah just to do a gotcha on ModiJi.

you really know a lot about previous GOI, don't you. what exactly did they sold to pak ? to my knowledge all our land mass was still entact when they left office.
siachen was still ours, J&K was still ours. that's why I said there is no such thing neutral observer. but questioning the very policy should be encouraged. because in future also there will lots of climb downs by the GOI, prepare yourself for that. how much helplessness does india have to show for 26/11 incident ? I have more hope from DT(donald trumph) now. they all do grand standing and then when the reality hits them, just give in. why comprehensive dialogue , I just cannot digest it. they could have argued over J&K, but why siachen , sircreek what for ? are we so desperate to get transit route to central asia countries.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Dec 2015 23:49

sukhish, once again, you are harping on extremes. No land was given, but let me give you 2 examples of MMS's total sell out:

1. His mention of Baluchistan and TSP is a "victim" of terror at Sharmal-el-Sheikh. In one stroke he handed over India's moral high ground on terror to TSP on a silver platter

2. His disproportionate focus on "Hindu terror". By hyping up a few communal incidents as the equivalent of Paki terror. That was seditious to say the least.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 12 Dec 2015 00:13

Expect sabotage but talks should go on: Imran Khan.

Imran Khan tonight said he told Prime Minister Narendra Modi to expect sabotage by "vested interests" but stressed that talks between India and Pakistan should go on "uninterrupted".

Stressing that Kashmir is "doable", Khan referred to the progress made on the issue between former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the then Pakistani President Gen (Retd) Pervez Musharraf. Hand us the valley and the source of waters in the sub-continent.

Seeking to refute assertions that the military is the real master in Pakistan , Khan said that even the military is on board.
He ruled out any scope of a coup or martial law in his country.

Despite playing with a straight bat on various issues, Khan ducked questions on LeT founder Hafiz Saeed and underworld don Dawood Ibrahim very skillfully. But ofcourse

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 12 Dec 2015 00:16

Why are we humoring Sukhish? He is a Gandhi stooge in disguise, trying to brush over Gandhi family's perfidy and failures and pinning all the blames on Modi.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 12 Dec 2015 00:25

Pakis have thousand cuts plan while Indian side is status quo. No point letting pakis off the hook on time pass - ie loosening responses - while trying to look more 'international'.

The Hadid science is what pakis have been doing while == circus is maintained on both sides!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2015 01:21

Hitesh all people should be able to talk. How will we know both sides of the debate?

I think something is cooking w.r.t. TSP that many ducks are lining up.
It all started with Chota Rajan getting caught.
To Imran Khan coming to pay obeisance to NaMo.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 02:37

CRamS wrote:sukhish, once again, you are harping on extremes. No land was given, but let me give you 2 examples of MMS's total sell out:

1. His mention of Baluchistan and TSP is a "victim" of terror at Sharmal-el-Sheikh. In one stroke he handed over India's moral high ground on terror to TSP on a silver platter

2. His disproportionate focus on "Hindu terror". By hyping up a few communal incidents as the equivalent of Paki terror. That was seditious to say the least.

we need to bring Balouchistan on the table for discussions, why not , if J&K can be on the table why not balouchistan. what morale high ground with pak are we talking about. if they can rake J&k all day long why can't we atleast talk about balouchistan sensibly. why is that a sell out, or because it was done by MMS so it has to be sell out. were communal incidents part of any joint statement, or Hindu terror part of any joint statement ? talking about balouchistan would be wonderful for us.
morale high (that to against pak) wow wow wow.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 02:45

Hitesh wrote:Why are we humoring Sukhish? He is a Gandhi stooge in disguise, trying to brush over Gandhi family's perfidy and failures and pinning all the blames on Modi.

gandhi stooge really, what has ur 56 inch chest achieved so far in hard core substance ?, last thing I know was ur advani sitting next to terrioist in a plane and handing them over to khandhar. well where were all these folks at that point ? time for someone to do some start talking. i'am sorry I do not get aroused by speeches alone, I need to see lot more substance and result on ground, which I'am yet to see.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 02:50

by the way
http://idrw.org/pakistan-test-fires-nuc ... c-missile/, it is almost half the agniV range, it looks sleek to. I'am not a fan of this , but it is a reality now.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 12 Dec 2015 03:41

sukhish wrote: i'am sorry I do not get aroused by speeches alone, I need to see lot more substance and result on ground, which I'am yet to see.

Cut the crap, are you interested in bean counting as a Cong spokesman, on what Cong did Vs what BJP did, or are you interested in what current govt has achieved visa vi Pakis? I already told you, don't harp on extremes and turn arounds. The devil is in the details.

Cong is filled with traitors like MSA, SK, MT etc, and I won't get into the kind of sell outs they are as its not the topic of this thread.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 03:50

CRamS wrote:
sukhish wrote: i'am sorry I do not get aroused by speeches alone, I need to see lot more substance and result on ground, which I'am yet to see.
Cut the crap, are you interested in bean counting as a Cong spokesman, on what Cong did Vs what BJP did, or are you interested in what current govt has achieved visa vi Pakis? I already told you, don't harp on extremes and turn arounds. The devil is in the details.

Cong is filled with traitors like MSA, SK, MT etc, and I won't get into the kind of sell outs they are as its not the topic of this thread.

it is not bean counting, it is called straight talk (called bean counting if it gives pleasure to u). MSA had been saying uninterrupted dialogue for all the time, and this is what is about to start now as per the joint statement. basically pak sponsered terror has been converted into pak victim of terror. in the heart of asia conference not even once it was mentioned why ? next month foreign secretaries talks are going to happen to talk about the things in the comprehensive dialogue.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 12 Dec 2015 03:56

sukhish wrote:
Hitesh wrote:Why are we humoring Sukhish? He is a Gandhi stooge in disguise, trying to brush over Gandhi family's perfidy and failures and pinning all the blames on Modi.
gandhi stooge really, what has ur 56 inch chest achieved so far in hard core substance ?, last thing I know was ur advani sitting next to terrioist in a plane and handing them over to khandhar. well where were all these folks at that point ? time for someone to do some start talking. i'am sorry I do not get aroused by speeches alone, I need to see lot more substance and result on ground, which I'am yet to see.

The Pakistani terror boat was intercepted and destroyed.
BSF gave very heavy and disproportionate response to firing on Jammu border.
Terrorist camp was destroyed in Myanmar.
Terrorists attacking Udhampur/Gurdaspur were killed / captured.
PLA occupiers in Ladakh were confronted by large IA force and forced to withdraw.

I hope the above are hard core enough to get you aroused.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 12 Dec 2015 04:01

Sukhish,
I'm glad that you and congress are continuing on this line of non sensical argument. Keep it up with full vigour. Congress mukt bharat is inching closer to reality with such brilliant idioticity.

Hope Rahul babas numerous gaffes are enough to arouse you. Fap fap onlee, okay ?

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:18

disproportionate response, did it lead to less attacks in J&K ?,
that's the key point. they do not care about their losses, for them it is part of the dialogue (war) processes.
PLA was confronted earlier also and they went back in 2013.
in every attack in J&K eventually terrorist get killed sooner or later. does that lead to less attack in future ?

when will terrorist camps get destroyed in POK?, any timeline ? in the gulf of eden india destroys piracy/terrorists every now and then, and has been
doing for quite some time.

hope your arousal does not come from just listening to speeches.

as early as 1992 india went into mayanmar and destroyed some camps. did you know about it ? ask mr partharsarthy the then indian ambassador to mayanmar.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 12 Dec 2015 04:24

sukhish wrote:disproportionate response, did it lead to less attacks in J&K ?,
that's the key point. they do not care about their losses, for them it is part of the dialogue (war) processes.
PLA was confronted earlier also and they went back in 2013.
in every attack in J&K eventually terrorist get killed sooner or later. does that lead to less attack in future ?

when will terrorist camps get destroyed in POK?, any timeline ? in the gulf of eden india destroys piracy/terrorists every now and then, and has been
doing for quite some time.

Bhaijaan,

Just want to remind you that this is NOT parliament where you can stall discussion at will with some trolling Or "questions" as Rahul baba loves to call it.

Breapers here are pawarful. Also this dhagaa is STFUP. Take a hint..

Edit : pliss to desist from arousal talk. What's with you ?!

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Dec 2015 04:28

last thing I know was ur advani sitting next to terrioist in a plane and handing them over to khandhar.

Are you a Paksitani?

Only they write "your leader/Advani" and even dont know the name of the person who actually escorted the scum to Kandahar ( it was "our" Jaswant Singh).

Did you happen to see the dharnas "your" INC was doing outside PMs house and using relatives as a kind of bargaining chip to get them released instead of sitting with govt of the day to discuss how it could be solved without hurting India's interest?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 04:28

sukhish wrote: in the same way your apetite to consuming snake oil is also well known. prepare yourself for the next rousing speech.

also there is no such thing as neutral observer, I don't even know where this term came from.

glad to see you admit that your bias is evident and glaring.

the only one peddling snake oil is you. doing a casual perusal of the rubbish you write clearly indicates both your proclivities and tendency to ask for grandiose idiocy in which you have no direct stake.

as regards arousal, and linking that to terror camps getting destroyed in POK, why don't you do it, super champ? or is the fact that this will lead to all out war, causing far more casualties in the indian armed forces and without a tangible end state (since terror camps can be easily reinstated), beyond your intellect to grasp?

unfortunately for the likes of you, matters of state are clearly beyond your proclivities to get "aroused". and thank goodness for that, since the people bleeding for india are doing so for tangible reasons, not because you want arousal.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:31

bhaishaab,
atleast look from the objective perspective. glamorising a leader is one thing, looking at the ground results is another matter , I hope u understand it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 04:32

sum wrote:
last thing I know was ur advani sitting next to terrioist in a plane and handing them over to khandhar.
Are you a Paksitani?

Only they write "your leader/Advani" and even dont know the name of the person who actually escorted the scum to Kandahar ( it was "our" Jaswant Singh).

Did you happen to see the dharnas "your" INC was doing outside PMs house and using relatives as a kind of bargaining chip to get them released instead of sitting with govt of the day to discuss how it could be solved without hurting India's interest?

oh no sum ji. kargil was also "your war". that should tell you the mindset of these "patriots"

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Karg ... 51865.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 04:34

sukhish wrote:bhaishaab,
atleast look from the objective perspective. glamorising a leader is one thing, looking at the ground results is another matter , I hope u understand it.

why don't you follow your own glib advice before getting all preachy? take a look at your own posts. they completely lack any objectivity. Modi this, Modi that..zero analysis, a lot of incoherent ranting.

PS: go see what PVNR did - this from B Raman - a complete establishment man with a soft spot for the INC, lest you call him names as well.
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.in/2006/0 ... hould.html

Modi is doing much the same.

13.Under Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi and P.V.Narasimha Rao, India followed a policy of "talk, talk, hit, hit". They and their officials continued meeting and talking to their Pakistani counterparts, whether there was any useful outcome or not. At the same time, they gave a free hand to their intelligence agencies to do whatever they felt was necessary to hurt Pakistan covertly for its use of terrorism against India. This policy contributed in no insignificant measure to the success of counter-terrorism in Punjab.

14. Narasimha Rao added a psychological component to this policy to highlight before the international community Pakistani sponsorship of terrorism against India. It was largely as a result of this that he succeeded in persuading the Clinton Administration to place Pakistan on a newly-created suspected State-Sponsors of Terrorism from January to July,1993

Instead of ranting and assuming you possess some divine intellect and all others are merely glamorizing a leader, as versus understanding what he is doing, only shows you have thrown objectivity to the winds.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:36

Karan M wrote:
sukhish wrote: in the same way your apetite to consuming snake oil is also well known. prepare yourself for the next rousing speech.

also there is no such thing as neutral observer, I don't even know where this term came from.
glad to see you admit that your bias is evident and glaring.

the only one peddling snake oil is you. doing a casual perusal of the rubbish you write clearly indicates both your proclivities and tendency to ask for grandiose idiocy in which you have no direct stake.

as regards arousal, and linking that to terror camps getting destroyed in POK, why don't you do it, super champ? or is the fact that this will lead to all out war, causing far more casualties in the indian armed forces and without a tangible end state (since terror camps can be easily reinstated), beyond your intellect to grasp?

unfortunately for the likes of you, matters of state are clearly beyond your proclivities to get "aroused". and thank goodness for that, since the people bleeding for india are doing so for tangible reasons, not because you want arousal.

destroying camps will not lead to all out war. it can be done in an iteration and not in one go. but it has to be done at some point ?
my arousal will not come until a victory like 1971 happens. rest all is jingling of words for posturing. not saying that this GOI is stupid, but was questioning
the very logic of comprehensive dialogue, i was not a fan of composite dialogue either and no wonder it went no where. I hope this comprehensive dialogue also dies in its infancy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 04:44

sukhish wrote:destroying camps will not lead to all out war.

says who?? are you in charge of Pak GHQ to determine how they will respond? you think they dont have H&D to preserve? there is every chance an all out conflict may result thanks to escalation getting out of hand. whats our end goal then? dismemberment and lose a few indian cities to n-attacks?

it can be done in an iteration and not in one go. but it has to be done at some point ?

why should this be done when the gains will be limited? have you spent any thought looking at the logistical & human cost involved?
you have to cross one of the most heavily defended borders in the world, sending in your elite troops (unlike Pak sending in disposable mujahideen trash) to take out a handful of camps which are anyhow relocated & which Pak can recreate in short order. there is no tangible benefit. at best BRF/India gets brownie points, then TSP will set up more camps with the disposable detritus which are its terrorists.

what Modi & co are doing is what is more sensible. hit from a position of material and logistical superiority on the border & as and when assets build up, covert operations & other methods will commence. right now, its the first and using diplomatic engagement to build the pressure on pak. but the focus is evident. talk, talk, hit, hit.

its far more viable than sending in a company of SF on a risky mission with limited tangible gain.

my arousal will not come until a victory like 1971 happens.

then forget about ever getting aroused. period. that "victory" will not happen unless there is an all out war & modi & co are far too canny to get into an all out conflict.

his mandate is to develop india and stop its enemies. there are other methods to do so other than all out war.

rest all is jingling of words for posturing. not saying that this GOI is stupid, but was questioning
the very logic of comprehensive dialogue, i was not a fan of composite dialogue either and no wonder it went no where. I hope this comprehensive dialogue also dies in its infancy.

dialogue and stuff is done to present the usual BS reasonable face for the international community. as india's economic progress rises, the pressure exerted on india to engage in such activities and the indian response will change drastically.

until & unless we elect another bunch of WKKs like MMS & co who dream of dinner in lahore. in that case, all bets are off.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:45

Karan M wrote:
sukhish wrote:bhaishaab,
atleast look from the objective perspective. glamorising a leader is one thing, looking at the ground results is another matter , I hope u understand it.
why don't you follow your own glib advice before getting all preachy? take a look at your own posts. they completely lack any objectivity. Modi this, Modi that..zero analysis, a lot of incoherent ranting.

PS: go see what PVNR did - this from B Raman - a complete establishment man with a soft spot for the INC, lest you call him names as well.
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.in/2006/0 ... hould.html

Modi is doing much the same.

13.Under Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi and P.V.Narasimha Rao, India followed a policy of "talk, talk, hit, hit". They and their officials continued meeting and talking to their Pakistani counterparts, whether there was any useful outcome or not. At the same time, they gave a free hand to their intelligence agencies to do whatever they felt was necessary to hurt Pakistan covertly for its use of terrorism against India. This policy contributed in no insignificant measure to the success of counter-terrorism in Punjab.

14. Narasimha Rao added a psychological component to this policy to highlight before the international community Pakistani sponsorship of terrorism against India. It was largely as a result of this that he succeeded in persuading the Clinton Administration to place Pakistan on a newly-created suspected State-Sponsors of Terrorism from January to July,1993

Instead of ranting and assuming you possess some divine intellect and all others are merely glamorizing a leader, as versus understanding what he is doing, only shows you have thrown objectivity to the winds.

I perfectly understands what he is doing, he(modiji) also knows by now what is needed. but is this the way to do it ? this was not expected at all. I just recollect from his own words, "that we should not hold any dialogue until terror aspect is taken care of". has then been taken care of ? you do not need any devine power to understand wha't going on. it is not that complicated either.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:48

Karan M wrote:
sukhish wrote:destroying camps will not lead to all out war.
says who?? are you in charge of Pak GHQ to determine how they will respond? you think they dont have H&D to preserve? there is every chance an all out conflict may result thanks to escalation getting out of hand. whats our end goal then? dismemberment and lose a few indian cities to n-attacks?

it can be done in an iteration and not in one go. but it has to be done at some point ?
why should this be done when the gains will be limited? have you even spent any thought looking at the logistical & human cost involved?
you have to cross one of the most heavily defended borders in the world, sending in your elite troops (unlike Pak sending in disposable mujahideen trash) to take out a handful of camps which are anyhow relocated & which Pak can recreate in short order.

what Modi & co are doing is what is more sensible. hit from a position of material and logistical superiority on the border & as and when assets build up, covert operations & tit for tat will commence.

its far more viable than sending in a company of SF on a risky mission with limited tangible gain.

my arousal will not come until a victory like 1971 happens.
then forget about ever getting aroused. period. that "victory" will not happen unless there is an all out war & modi & co are far too canny to get into an all out conflict.

his mandate is to develop india and stop its enemies. there are other methods to do so other than all out war.

rest all is jingling of words for posturing. not saying that this GOI is stupid, but was questioning
the very logic of comprehensive dialogue, i was not a fan of composite dialogue either and no wonder it went no where. I hope this comprehensive dialogue also dies in its infancy.
dialogue and stuff is done to present the usual BS reasonable face for the international community. as india's economic progress rises, the pressure exerted on india to engage in such activities and the indian response will change drastically.

until & unless we elect another bunch of WKKs like MMS & co who dream of dinner in lahore. in that case, all bets are off.

has attacking on indian convoy's every now and then lead to any war. by the way sushma swaraj the grand standing foreign minister did have her dinner in islamabad just two days ago.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:49

dialogue is fine, but comprehensive dialogue ?

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 04:52

I know pak is a nut case, but even nut case has its own logic, at the end of the day everybody has to do its own math.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 04:54

sukhish wrote:I perfectly understands what he is doing, he(modiji) also knows by now what is needed. but is this the way to do it ? this was not expected at all. I just recollect from his own words, "that we should not hold any dialogue until terror aspect is taken care of". has then been taken care of ? you do not need any devine power to understand wha't going on. it is not that complicated either.

modi is under international pressure. he needs FDI so that india gets enough to reverse the damage done by a decade of complete misrule and highway robbery (the extent of which he can't even talk about, because investment is driven by perception and knowledge of the level of loss will actually inspire distrust in india's systems). so he has to "play nice" with the west. this means he has swallowed his own pride and ego and gone to talk nice to Ombaba. and here you are, an indian citizen upset at the "talks". point is this is shadow boxing.

ombaba needs TSP in his corner to make nice in Afghanistan. each time india lands a few on TSP, the pukes run crying to Ombaba. that in turn is used as leverage on us for our economic aims.
so modi has to do "just enough" to convince the dime a dozen idiots sitting in the think tanks who proffer advice on "cashmere nuke flashpoint" that india is doing its bit and wants peace.

meanwhile on the border and elsewhere, its hit, hit and rooting out the ISI network within india.

this doesn't even require divine or any sense to understand - its straight forward.

unlike MMS, Modi has no delusions of being a peacemaker or wants to settle in his ancestral pind in Pak. he is not from the left school of "poor minorities created their nation and need special care" school of thought as well.

he is just navigating some really tricky situations. watch, understand, support. the speeches etc are for the people who can't read/understand on their own. not you. on BRF there really is no excuse for not tracking all the myriad push/pull on the GOI and how modis govt is doing that.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 04:57

sukhish wrote:has attacking on indian convoy's every now and then lead to any war. by the way sushma swaraj the grand standing foreign minister did have her dinner in islamabad just two days ago.

india has more to lose than pakistan. it wants to be a power & a successful civilization. pakistan army is ok with its citizens eating grass. each & every year this contrast gets more and more evident. india can wage war, annihalate pakistan, lose a decade or more & be vulnerable to further incidents of force. is that in its best interest? no.
answer then is to deter TSP but without all out war. its not easy. especially when keeping the pretence of reasonableness.
especially when there are countries eg PRC which want a war so that india gets pulled down. others in the west who back TSP to the hilt and support it.

and as regards "grand standing" SS - this is the sort of rhetoric that has no business in a serious discussion. have you even tracked how responsive and responsible she has been as a FM? compare and contrast to her predecessors. she has been given a task, and she is doing it.

as regards comprehensive wagehra.. talk, talk, hit, hit.

ps: if the hit, hit was going on people wouldn;t have had an issue with MMS either. but the man was delusional and even prevented indian retaliation at the border. he made us into a soft state which kept taking hits. thats the difference here. modi has a limited number of tools at his disposal and he is using them all.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 12 Dec 2015 05:06

Karan M wrote:
sukhish wrote:I perfectly understands what he is doing, he(modiji) also knows by now what is needed. but is this the way to do it ? this was not expected at all. I just recollect from his own words, "that we should not hold any dialogue until terror aspect is taken care of". has then been taken care of ? you do not need any devine power to understand wha't going on. it is not that complicated either.
modi is under international pressure. he needs FDI so that india gets enough to reverse the damage done by a decade of complete misrule and highway robbery (the extent of which he can't even talk about, because investment is driven by perception and knowledge of the level of loss will actually inspire distrust in india's systems). so he has to "play nice" with the west. this means he has swallowed his own pride and ego and gone to talk nice to Ombaba. and here you are, an indian citizen upset at the "talks". point is this is shadow boxing.

ombaba needs TSP in his corner to make nice in Afghanistan. each time india lands a few on TSP, the pukes run crying to Ombaba. that in turn is used as leverage on us for our economic aims.
so modi has to do "just enough" to convince the dime a dozen idiots sitting in the think tanks who proffer advice on "cashmere nuke flashpoint" that india is doing its bit and wants peace.

meanwhile on the border and elsewhere, its hit, hit and rooting out the ISI network within india.

this doesn't even require divine or any sense to understand - its straight forward.

unlike MMS, Modi has no delusions of being a peacemaker or wants to settle in his ancestral pind in Pak. he is not from the left school of "poor minorities created their nation and need special care" school of thought as well.

he is just navigating some really tricky situations. watch, understand, support. the speeches etc are for the people who can't read/understand on their own. not you. on BRF there really is no excuse for not tracking all the myriad push/pull on the GOI and how modis govt is doing that.

every indian prime minister as far as I can re-collect has been under pressure by uncle SAM. wasn't the MMS composite dialogue in the same line ?
so because MMS had pind in pak, he agreed to a composite dialogue, i never saw that in any joint statement in any indo pak affairs. I'am not in comparison business
but just trying to gulp the objective rational behind the comprehensive dialogue joint statement.

they tested shaheen-III today with the range of 2750, they are not relenting either. if get little FDI and get more prospurous they will also escalate the threat matrix by raising there minimum deterence. basically the ratio of (indian economic progress/ pak threat level) will kept the same , it has been kept the same for a long time
we will get more FDI, they will more free - equipment in return from uncle SAM. so that ratio does not change. if ukil gives them less china will fill the rest.
if india wants to get out of this game of ratio, it has to do think differently. more FDI to India is directly propotional to more military aid to pak one way or the other.

saip · Post by **saip** » 12 Dec 2015 05:07

sukhish wrote:by the way
http://idrw.org/pakistan-test-fires-nuc ... c-missile/, it is almost half the agniV range, it looks sleek to. I'am not a fan of this , but it is a reality now.

Do you know it is a successful test? Two years from now you will learn that some pieces of it were found in Iran. Sleek? All that glisters is not gold.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Dec 2015 05:14

sukhish wrote:every indian prime minister as far as I can re-collect has been under pressure by uncle SAM.

other indian PMs were not cut from the same cloth in terms of fixing things asap. CWG, 2G, myriad scams showed where the remote control/s were.

wasn't the MMS composite dialogue in the same line ?

MMS was an ideologue who got his fuzzies speaking to TSP and wanted a noble peace prize legacy to offset his remote control image. he almost compromised on core national issues. the huge furore over siachen was admitted to be a reality by his own advisor Baru.
a bunch of rtd military & establishment types sabotaged his attempts to buy a legacy at the cost of hard won indian territory.
sharm e shaikh another.

in short, he was compromised.

so because MMS had pind in pak, he agreed to a composite dialogue, i never saw that in any joint statement in any indo pak affairs. I'am not in comparison business

the pakistanis liked MMS. he was pliable. Modi is not. simple evidence is the amount of hit back we are doing at the borders. yes, pakistan is still infiltrating but that is to be expected. MMS even prevented that. enough reports posted already. you should know it.

but just trying to gulp the objective rational behind the comprehensive dialogue joint statement.

you already have the rationale. whether you are objective enough to admit it, as versus being clouded by your bias of "not my Modi, your Advani" is your choice to make.

IOW, get used to the occasional talks, smiley faces etc between india and TSP. a week later you'll hear of firing at the border.

its going to be a hot peace.