India-US Strategic News and Discussion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jan 2014 08:20

Bharara is a Rajput name. Firmly upper caste. If the caste system is declared as slavery, it means that anyone from an upper caste background has benefited from slavery. One objection to exposing this fact in the US would be that if Bharara's upper caste background is investigated to see if he benefited from the fact that his parents and ancestors were upper caste slavers, it would expose all Indian Americans to a similar charge. I suspect that the proportion of upper caste background Indians in America is higher than their proportion in India.

White people in the US have gone through the pain of this type of truth and reconciliation and blacks have now been made equal. In fact with a black president and the fact that blacks are represented more than whites in some US institutions (such as jails) the ghost of slavery has been totally removed from the US. Indians need to learn from this and emulate them.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Jan 2014 08:26

Surgical Cathartic IED laid.
I'm weaseling out of this world-of-hurt locker now.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Jan 2014 08:45

saip wrote:DK already got a new posting. But will she travel abroad as the AID director? Then will the Interpol be looking for her (knowing how dense these SD types could be)?

Link

If the US issues a RCN through Interpol, it will setback the India-US relationship by several decades.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 20 Jan 2014 08:46

Rajiv Malhotra is asking this question on the Twitter:

... Where does he stand on Khalistan movement? Will he prosecute or protect?

https://twitter.com/RajivMessage/status ... 9504843776

KLP Dubey · Post by **KLP Dubey** » 20 Jan 2014 08:54

shiv wrote:Bharara is a Rajput name.

Actually it is a Khatri name from the Poon-jab. Preet Bharara is a khatri Sikh. The name is also used by some pahadi 'Rajputs' but Preet is not one of them.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2014 09:27

Raja Bose wrote:Mushy is from Old Dilli - I have visited his house (now I heard they tore it down after his uncle died and built a public toilet?).

mmm.. why did you visit his house?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Jan 2014 10:25

To go to small Pakistan?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Jan 2014 10:34

SaiK wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Mushy is from Old Dilli - I have visited his house (now I heard they tore it down after his uncle died and built a public toilet?).
mmm.. why did you visit his house?

I took a pee against the compound wall.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Jan 2014 12:57

^^
I hope you saved up.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Jan 2014 13:03

Actually Anmol killed any possible self righteous defense of SD department. Colonial Britishers used to equate dogs and Indians. But US State Department has gone one step ahead by saying that their pet dogs are better than their Indian Employees.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 20 Jan 2014 18:38

If there was some other desi and not Preet Bharaaraa, there would be some other discussion I am sure. But what if another desi do the same? What if there was a pure white gora instead of PB, could he say in court how USA senate has ratified some treaties only, or reciprocity is to be enforced partially only, or that any situation is hazy only if things turn bad (otherwise equal law enforcement stands), or that it is like that only, what to do only. Justice dept has not given any judgements yet for all this.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jan 2014 19:10

Point is, maybe, that PB is presumed to have some DNA if not fully formed gray cells that help him relate to reality vis-a-vis India. Enough to figure out that it is hardly criminal exploitation and slavery to take along a desi nanny who could otherwise aspire max to a commuting job in a dilli house, paying INR 5000 / mo total, and give her a decent live-in job, paid vacations, and a net saving back home of over INR30,000/mo. OK, she does not get to see her kids often, and that is terrible, but it is also the lot of people who go to the gelf etc.

Of course the presumption may be 400% wrong. But wait until he gets the political appt where he wants to be - like AG of USA, and comes visiting India and dances the Bhangra in his "native" village, or at JNU - and you'll smell all the pakistan emanating from him just like from Zeya:

I am so thrilled 2 b back, always had a soft spot deep in my ****** for India

Until then he seems to be doing a super job as a DL (desi lobster). In this case ABCDL.
****************

Re: argument about cost of living in NYC: The BO admin has kindly foreclosed that, thanku. They declared (with what basis I don't know) that in the case of diplomats' assistants, NO ALLOWANCE IS TO BE MADE FOR COST OF LIVING in computing minimum wage.

IOW, American employed in NYC, say 7-11 on 5th Avenue, gets paid $9.73/hr for 8hrs/day, 5 days/wk. On top of that she spends 4 hrs/day commuting back and forth, because she ain't going to be able to afford living on 5th Avenue. Out of that she must pay commuting ($5/day?) medical insurance ($200/mo on ObamaCare?) food ($4/day min?), Social Security @7.62%, Fed income tax, state tax, NYC local tax, clothing, iPhone, and bus fare for any thought of a vacation in her home in West Virginia if she wants it. Plus of course, rent on her apartment (let's say a $1000/mo apt shared with a roommate?) plus utilities (about $50/mo average, minimum) for water, gas, electricity, plus the payment on an TV or furniture she uses... Plus $0.75 per check or withdrawal from her "bank account" to pay the bills since she can't afford the minimum balance.

If she is late to work, 7-11 will dock her pay. If she drops a bottle of Rooh Afza, 7-11 will make her clean up AND dock her pay.

But a live-in maid employed by a diplomat is to get $9.73/hr for 8 hrs per day, plus 50% overtime for any hours beyond 8 that when the kids may even call her and interrupts her soap opera. Any travel is by Embassy car, or paid by the employer. Medical care is paid by employer. Paid vacations to India. Paid phone calls to India to stay in touch with family. Cellphone provided. TV provided (including a separate one in her room - don't u wonder why, if she had zero free time as she claims?) Free food, and not just aloo roti, mind u, there were diplo PARTIES often, plus I bet U.Khobragade's daughter and wife of a Prof, the MBBS and her kids were not going to eat poorly or unhealthy. Only the best, I bet. Paid furnished apt bedroom in posh locality.

This is Bharara's and BO's and SD's "LAW". HOW does it make any sense? Point, is it does not have to make any sense, it is a straight rip-off by thugs paid by the taxpayers of the US of A. The blatant threat is, u pay up or we arrest, torture and condemn you to 15 years in federal prison. Extortion 101.

Preet Bharara has the time-worn, readymade, sanctimonious answer:

Vee ver onlee following orders!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2014 19:17

DoCJi,

I am definitely humor challenged, but I had to look at the small font in your post in the edit mode to appreciate your sarcasm

.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2014 20:02

the point is taken.. but from the scope of reasoning, massa is always an organized legal ways of doing social crime which is anti-socialistic setup, where desh only thinks mostly SDRE techniques. the point falls within two diametrically or othogonal jurisdiction scope and even socio-ethos scope. this can't be taken to courts, but only to streets. people have to made thinking about capitalistic cultural vs sdre culture.

-----
rb's musharraf vs musharraf combat to be noted

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Jan 2014 20:14

Are SK and her family now it witness production programme? How much is being spent on them by USA?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 20 Jan 2014 20:57

As UBji pointed out the prosecution should be queried the basis of the minimum wage law since per social scientists who arrived at a number included all of those very same expenses, how can they exclude that now even by legislation? and the perennial "rattified" or not scam.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Jan 2014 21:37

UB, et all.

You are not going to win the minimum wage argument. There is a reason these rules were changed for diplomatic types.

DK was definitely in the wrong for not paying the wage and more. To be honest no live in nanny in NY area will work for you for less than $40k + per year. If you can’t pay the wage you can’t afford a live in domestic. DK & IFS is wrong on this. IFS is wrong to persist on insisting on this ‘right’. No amount of jumping around on passport classification will change this. Domestics will remain tempted to seek a better life and try to screw their employers, IFS, etc. One can just about guarantee this situation will recur. IFS will continue losing maids.

It will remain unfair that DK was planning to decamp with a green card while SR is not supposed to aspire for this.

If this ever went in front of a jury they would convict DK in a heartbeat. Don’t you doubt it. DK was wise not to risk it and get out.

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 20 Jan 2014 22:10

Paying prevailing wage (40k+) is not a requirement. Paying minimum wage is a requirement.

If you include room/board/other allowances, it will add up to well beyond minimum wage. Technically I agree this is a violation of the law which saying room & board cannot be included, but it doesn't come anywhere close to slavery and human trafficking. But, I agree that a jury will buy the prosecutor line and convict and DK was wise to get out. Juries in general like nothing more than sticking it to the man.

In the future, the India government should pay them full minimum wage, and then insist that they pay rent and expenses back... That should overall be revenue neutral while following the law.

In any case, the people like Uzra Zeya and the Mays that took this to the level of Human trafficking need to be declared persona non-grata in India with a lot of publicity.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 20 Jan 2014 22:12

Theo_Fidel wrote:You are not going to win the minimum wage argument. There is a reason these rules were changed for diplomatic types.

They don't face a class action suit because the targets chosen are perceived as weak, and when you talk about the same stuff for the folks in USEND, 'Don't you dare' argument? comes up

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2014 22:12

Theo Stop making unsubstantiated charges. Next time gets a warning

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jan 2014 22:24

Theo:

1. I don't see the basis for claiming that DK was planning to decamp with a GC. She could simply have applied upon marriage to a USC, hey? Any evidence that she did that? And in any case that is irrelevant: if she changed status, she would have to do that legally, not by going AWOL.

There is nothing unfair about, say, your employer being able to do something, legally, that you are not allowed to do, legally. I wish I could buy a Mercedes convertible like my boss...

2. Whether one can find a nanny for under $XXX is also irrelevant: the nanny was brought on a visa under an approved category. If they had brought her in as NeuroSurgeon and used her as nanny, OK, but that is not the case.

3. An official govt passport carries many privileges, it also has some constraints. Adults who accept jobs are supposed to know and live by those. Again, there was absolutely no scam here.

4. Per Indian law, everything was done right, apparently. Which is why the jurisdiction issue is paramount right now.

5. I am pointing out that the minimum wage law is applied very arbitrarily here, because the law merely specified a given number ($9.73) that was arrived after due consideration of actual COL. I DON'T believe that the legislature went to the length of specifying that the 9.73 could not include any obvious in-kind payments such as room and board - that's a WH/SD scam. Applying it arbitrarily, saying that all in-kind payments have to be discounted for domestic assistants of diplomats, is plain wrong: it is clearly xenophobic pandering to the "Indians and Chinese Are Taking Our Jobs" lobbies. The WH/SD put that in because they are confident that Indians won't hire an attorney and file a class-action suit on behalf of all diplomats - can you imagine 214 nations agreeing on that? :

But I am not saying that a jury won't be compelled to go strictly by the letter of the law, not the sense of it.

6. The position of DK's lawyer is that the minimum wage WAS paid, and that the INR 30K/mo was in ADDITION to wages paid in the US. I don't know where the truth is on that, I assume the court will ask to see pay stubs and tax reporting to prove it. Hope the Embassy was smart enough to do those by the book.

Of course there appears to be a certain amount of what the ex-Amby described as "chickens with heads cut off" going on about the 14 "ticking bums".

What do you suggest as SOP for diplos who have little kids? I wouldn't know, but they have to do something. Maybe describe them as "Community Relations Specialists"? "Bureau of Diplomatic Cuisine"?

And finally, my strong belief is that the Indians were used as a sort of "example" precisely because of a long record of no-retaliation. Do you believe that the French and the British and the Chinese and the Pakis pay $40K/yr per nanny? I don't. Nor, for that matter, will the residents of Long Island mansions, they are probably the cheapest of the lot.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2014 22:37

Anmol, Is there a correlation between the issuance of T Visas to India and the change in disallowing room and board in diplomats domestics pay?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jan 2014 22:40

OK, straight from Googleswara:

Domestic Help (Sag Harbor )
© craigslist - Map data © OpenStreetMap
Wanted *LOCAL* person part time 5 days/week approx 4 hrs/day needed for domestic help in Sag Harbor, NY.
Responsibilities will include cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping, some driving, etc.
Requirements: Must be reliable, dependable, trustworthy, able to cook, clean, have a valid drivers license, local and have own transportation.

Location: Sag Harbor
Compensation: starting $15/hr
This is a part-time job.
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
do NOT contact us with unsolicited services or offers

Note: it is a PART-TIME job. Must provide own transportation, provide own living expenses. Food not specified. Rich professionals usually get their home cleaned say once per week, get a list of groceries bought and get some stuff cooked. May not even see the person. Probably for about 3 hours per day, or 2 5 hrs/day, two days per week.

And $15/hr, even for 2060 hrs/year (full-time definition) = $30,900/yr per my madarssa mullah-e-Zero.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jan 2014 22:54

Specialized market specs:

CHINESE NANNY WANTED FOR NEWBORN IN MARCH OR APRIL (Manhattan)
I am looking for a nanny who can cook for my family with references and newborn experience. Live in or out and this is your choice. Must cook for my family and prepare all meals / healthy diet. Must be legal and I perform a background check. $750 each week 50-55 hours each week. Cantonese or Mandarin desired, but if you speak another dialect we are happy to have you. We will buy you a metrocard, too. MUST speak some English and again, must be legal MUST HAVE TELEPHONE REFERENCES WORKING WITH KIDS FOR US TO CALL.
Location: Manhattan

This one comes close to Theo's rate, but incl. overtime and some stringent specs.

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 20 Jan 2014 22:58

Again, let us not conflate prevailing wage vs minimum wage. These maids are on a specific visa and cannot go to the broader market and demand prevailing wages any more than someone on an L1 Visa can.
The issue is about minimum wage and the various contracts and forms of payment (in cash and in benefits) in India, as well as the US.

The major issue is about custodial sexual assault of a diplomat over these technicalities and the smuggling of Indian citizens using trafficking visas. Let us not lose sight of that.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Jan 2014 23:02

DK was diplomat. Period. If you did not like her actvities, ask her to leave. I did some back of the envelope calculations and the tax evasion, penalites, interest on American School and club come to around USD 800 million dollars.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Jan 2014 23:03

Ramana,

Where is there unsubstantiated charge.
----------------------

India should demand all folks in India follow Indian law, no favors.
USA demands folks in USA follow USA law.
---------------

MS,

The problem is not the minimum wage which is substantially lower.
But the creation of an unstable situation. Nannies/Domestics know what each other is getting paid.
One gets minimum wage and another getting 50% more will cause a lot more grief.

As folks have pointed out this can be exploited for Espionage etc.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2014 23:05

is the $4500 salary allegation carry any truth? can the massa authority put it out in the public domain the documentations that says DK agreed to pay SR that amount? what was the employer contract document? offer letter? visa papers etc..? only the numbers needed, and rest of PII data can be de-identified - [forgery is crime even if it is committed by motus].

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Jan 2014 23:12

USA says.

- Must pay in Dollars.
- Must pay in USA
- Must pay in USA bank account in employee name with sole access.
- Must pay every 2 weeks.

AFAIK it is clear DK did not follow at least some of these requirements.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 20 Jan 2014 23:13

SaiK, again there is a dichotomy, those documents probably are on public websites in US while when India asked USEND the same for its Indian employees, they said they had contacted Washington DC for legal opinion in revealing those documents, a stalling tactic since initially they stated they need time due to holidays then they said they need to protect those details in the interest of the privacy of those employees.

Hopefully Indian law is catching up on these issues

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Jan 2014 23:15

Theoji,
Charge that SR was paid only the Rs 30,000 and nothing more. We do not know if this is the truth or she did pay more than that (in $$$$ in the us to SR personally). The fact that the SD has all sorts of exclusions built into the calculation of min wage is a different although connected matter. Details are another matter though.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jan 2014 23:16

The basic pressure is that COL in the US has gone up, and real inflation (food, medical care, housing) is high. Americans are increasingly unwilling/unable to get the skills that command wages enough to thrive with rising SOL, in any market where global competition is allowed. Hence this lopsided marketplace: nannies demanding $40k or $50K/yr because the money comes from people who have the skills/credentials to command good salaries in the competitive marketplace.

So when someone tries to bring in competent, skilled people from elsewhere who provide superior services for less than the "prevailing" (extortionist) rates, they try to lynch them. This is the same deal as the Mazdoor Unions in Kerala who (a) won't do any work and (b) won't allow anyone else to do any work. They managed to drive away anyone who could move away, until everyone was hungry. Then someone started bringing in REALLY hungry people from Bihar etc to get the job done.

In 1984 when I landed at CIAL (then in the Island), I got my own bag off the carousel. The goons stopped me and made me pay the Porter Fee - although they were sitting with the thumbs up their musharrafs, and I was doing the lifting! This is what a Democrat administration seeks to bring in America. And they used the Indian diplomat to make a high-profile, zero-cost, hoopla. Impunity, because GOI has not retaliated all these years, instead GUBO'ed more and more and more. Gotta stop that.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Jan 2014 23:17

SaiK wrote:is the $4500 salary allegation carry any truth? can the massa authority put it out in the public domain the documentations that says DK agreed to pay SR that amount? what was the employer contract document? offer letter? visa papers etc..? only the numbers needed, and rest of PII data can be de-identified - [forgery is crime even if it is committed by motus].

saar,

1. $4500 was entered in the field for the employers salary as claimed by DK's lawyer.
2. SR entered, signed and submitted that document. She alone appeared for her visa interview. So even if any info on the form was incorrect, she was responsible for it and not DK.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jan 2014 23:24

Theo: Yes, the US says that. You and I have no choice. But sovereign diplomats operate under either international law, or reciprocal arrangements. Let's see:

USA says.
- Must pay in Dollars.
- Must pay in USA
- Must pay in USA bank account in employee name with sole access.
- Must pay every 2 weeks.

Applies to Indian diplomat only if (a) there is a Geneva convention that applies similarly to all diplomats, that both India and US have signed, and
US obeys the following in India for ALL employees in the US Consulates (BOTH Indian AND American):
- Must pay in Rupees.
- Must pay in India
- Must pay in India bank account in employee name with PAN Card with sole access.
- Must pay every 2 weeks.[/quote]

If this is not done, then there is no reciprocity and hence no validity to bully foreign diplomats in US. Stay tuned for whether the US Embassy and AES followed these, b4 we go to other US Consulates. So far the Embassy is foot-dragging on providing salary info of any kind, "referred to DC for legal point" etc.

For instance, i don't think India can suddenly declare that all diplomats must wear only langoti and go barefoot in Dilli, even if AAP comes to power. I mean, they can declare, but US diplomats will say

as they should.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2014 23:27

pankajs, if that is the case, potus is screwed! hell they better run away from dk issue then.

even holy dung can't protect them. [dung mightier than nukes now]

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Jan 2014 23:43

India should highlight the fact that in it overzealous pursuit of DK GOTUS has torn apart a family and separated a mother from her children. The true tragedy of the entire stupid episode. This is the only one that will resonate in USA. Yet hardly anyone mentions it. If it was the USA there would be tearful video's of the kids crying for their mom and cruelty of the bureaucrats exposed. Holly wood would then turn the thing into a movie, 60 minutes would spend 20 minutes on the unfairness and the over reaction. Very brownsploitation but there is a game to play.

Maybe even BRF video on YOUTUBE....
-----------------------------------

Pankaj,

AFAIK these are duties of an employer and part of the contract.
At any given time DK must produce these.
Her lawyer was not stupid. If these were available he would have advised DK to stand and fight.

Like I said before if it ever ended up in front of a jury the prosecutor vs DK dynamic would doom DK.
This is reality not some abstract legal point of order.
SDRE should keep reality of America and American jury/legal system in mind.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 20 Jan 2014 23:50

TF: Indian counsel was manhandled and cavity searched. That is an outrage. You are looking at some personal/hollywood sob story angles. This is not something for US masses approval but on reciprocity between the two countries. She was wrongly charged - the human trafficking charge is already dropped. The second charge is on 'visa fraud' and is under debate but even then with her immunity it will be dropped. Else the May's would have been in Indian courts too.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Jan 2014 23:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:Pankaj,

AFAIK these are duties of an employer and part of the contract.
At any given time DK must produce these.
Her lawyer was not stupid. If these were available he would have advised DK to stand and fight.

Like I said before if it ever ended up in front of a jury the prosecutor vs DK dynamic would doom DK.
This is reality not some abstract legal point of order.
SDRE should keep reality of America and American jury/legal system in mind.

My reply was for the limited point of $4500 alleged to have been promised as salary to SR by DK
Devyani Khobragade case: Screenshot shows US officials misread info

A screenshot of the visa application submitted for Devyani Khobragade's maid Sangeeta Richard indicates US authorities apparently misinterpreted information regarding the wage to be paid to the domestic help.

..
The relevant page of the visa application form (DS-160) clearly mentions that the employer's salary is USD 4,500 and not that of the maid, according to an authentic screenshot provided by sources told.

That is claim of DK's lawyer as opposed to the claim of the prosecutor that $4500 was SR's salary.

Now DK did not run away from US as you seem to imply, in fact she was asked to leave the US by the US gov. Why would she fear the US once she had obtained full immunity and she is still fighting the case the last I heard. Have folks forgotten the basic facts of her expulsion so soon? What was the tit for tat expulsion of Mays about?

If the facts support her case and are in black and white why would DK fear a jury? After all the point in contention is not some abstract legal point but a question on a form and its documented answer.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Jan 2014 00:00

Absolutely. Why aren’t the May's in Indian court?
Like I said this is brownsploitation. Do we get high and mighty or play the game... ...don't get mad/outrage/etc, get even....

The human trafficking angle seems weak to me. I don't recall it anywhere in the charge sheet for instance.
The main point in the charge sheet was she underpaid and had a second contract showing this.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 21 Jan 2014 00:07

If the facts support her case and are in black and white why would DK fear a jury?

I think this is a classic misunderstanding of how the jury system functions.
There seems to be consensus developing along these lines that DK is in the right legally so all is clear.
Nothing could be further from the truth. It is best she not think this at the moment.

Remember it is a jury of your peers, not a jury of legal experts.

AFAIK the charge sheet has not been withdrawn.
As the employer it is DK's responsibility to demonstrate legal compliance.
She will not win the lawyers claim.