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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 21:29
by habal
Austin wrote:
habal wrote:This is a clear sign of duality in his approach. He takes excessively strident posture in public but very keen to dialogue and some compromise in private.

His public postures seem to be adopted under tremendous pressure. As if he is afraid of something or someone.
Thats how diplomacy works ........after all Diplomacy is the Art of Possible.

There should always be backroom channels for negotiations , compromise etc even if there is crises or strong posturing presented in public.

I am told that US diplomat negotiated with North Vietnamese even at a time when their soldiers were heavily involved in war with them.

Lets hope what ever proposal is presented its acceptable to West and all parties involved in UN.

Chemical Weapons though is a very generic term and you can pretty much make some kind of crude chemical weapons from easily available chemicals , though it may not be industrial grade/mil grade types.

I remember watching CNN post 9/11 when they showed a video where Taliban was experimenting with some crude inhouse chemical weapons tested on dog ( was a puppy ) .....and CNN and other American News channel went to the town claiming how ruthless the Talibans were and how they possessed these terrible terrible chemical weapons.

Talk about duplicity :lol:
there is a group, the frontline group in State Dept and White House that wants war at any cost. Look at how this group have subverted the Russian offer and have induced clause that Syrians had committed a crime in Ghouta into their resolution. This means they want war at any cost. Obama has to tow the line of this group. He has no option.

But in private, he is amenable to finding a way out.

This means that the group is a pressure group working on behalf some interest to put public pressure on Obama stance through vitriol and hateful messages.

This group is doing cheap sociological & psychological tricks in 21st century ! Their sponsors may well be a group capable of blackmail and steep violence. Obama is being shown as a puppet, & Kerry has been outed as a nut case. It is like they have put the entire state of US at notice and these guys are trembling.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 21:42
by habal
the freedom fighter of Syria:
from facebook
off a wired phone call intercepted by Syrian govt.
the Lebanese newspaper “al-Safer” has reported a voice recording for two militants in Bet Sahem town of Damascus countryside, documenting a massacre committed by them against a family consists of a man, his wife and their children besides his mother only because they do not support the militant’s actions.

In a phone call, one of the armed leaders is talking about abducting a family trying to get out of its neighborhood after increasing the tension of the battle there and asking another one what to do with them.

The newspaper has given the armed men a default names in this conversation:

Zeid: Abu Shehab… Abu Shehab.

Abu Shehab: yes, I am with you, tell me.

Zeid: we have arrested a family on the Airport road.

Abu Shehab: who they are?

Zeid: I suppose they are pro-government people, the man is an employee in the weaving factory.

Abu Shehab: is there anything with them?

Zeid: no, but they are not with the rebels… Suppose they're spies?

Abu Shehab: manage it.. manage it .

Zeid: what do you mean?

Abu Shehab: is the man with us? Is any of his relatives with the rebels??

Zeid: he says no.. he has not relation with anybody.

Abu Shehab: ok, he is an employee, this means that he is against us, so get rid of him.

Zeid: is that what you want??? all of them?? There are a man, his wife and his mother with some kids.

Abu Shehab: it is better. Do not let any-one alive, say Allah.
Zeid: Allah.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 21:42
by Singha
the claws and payrolls of the Al Sauds reach very deep indeed.
if Riyadh is rome, the american army is being treated as a mercenary legion staffed by non-roman citizens like goths, teutons and franks.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 21:44
by habal
Saudis and AIPAC are merely tools. It is the unseen ones those are most dangerous.

Saudi and Muslim Brotherhood are competing gangs trying to curry favor to manufacture and disseminate more specimens like ones mentioned in above conversation for a control group.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 22:00
by Singha
how long before taliban style punishments become the norm. most of the genuine syrian early gen-1 rebels will have retired in despair, changed sides or been bumped off by then.
the usual assorted chechens, uzbeks, TSPians, somalis, qataris, saudis , yemenis would rule the roost, with a smattering of euros, indonesians and other far flung opportunists.

whatever rebel movement there was is methodically being hijacked by the jihadi factions who have deeper pockets, foreign funding and deeper pool of recruits.

iran and its proxies will have to step up their game and formate some "irregular militias" to answer fire with fire like the russians kept some dreaded chechen pro-govt militias on their payroll to fight their underground war off the books.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 22:11
by darshhan
habal wrote:Saudis and AIPAC are merely tools. It is the unseen ones those are most dangerous.

Saudi and Muslim Brotherhood are competing gangs trying to curry favor to manufacture and disseminate more specimens like ones mentioned in above conversation for a control group.
If Saudis are the tools then who is the wielder. Please clear the confusion.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 22:15
by Austin
habal wrote:there is a group, the frontline group in State Dept and White House that wants war at any cost. Look at how this group have subverted the Russian offer and have induced clause that Syrians had committed a crime in Ghouta into their resolution. This means they want war at any cost. Obama has to tow the line of this group. He has no option.

But in private, he is amenable to finding a way out.

This means that the group is a pressure group working on behalf some interest to put public pressure on Obama stance through vitriol and hateful messages.

This group is doing cheap sociological & psychological tricks in 21st century ! Their sponsors may well be a group capable of blackmail and steep violence. Obama is being shown as a puppet, & Kerry has been outed as a nut case. It is like they have put the entire state of US at notice and these guys are trembling.
US MIC thrives on War ...... and most of these MIC also fund these political parties so War is a Good News for them , coz they can churn out more equipment and Pentagon would fund them. If US Army is saturated then private mercenaries like Blackwater crop up ( remember Iraq ? ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater ... _shootings

It is no coincidence that every decade US Military is always in war in some part of the world mostly on Flimsy grounds and that is in great part to their MIC.

Every US President is under tremendous pressure to oblige to these MIC lobbies , How Obama manages to take a decision inspite of these competing pressure is what would make the difference.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 22:16
by ramana
habal, Lets stick to facts. The Off topic thread is there for other things.

TSJ, If you feel so strongly about this forum, you might want to reconsider.
The opinions expressed is the same as that of the majority people opinion in US on Syria right now.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 22:29
by darshhan
Singha wrote:how long before taliban style punishments become the norm. most of the genuine syrian early gen-1 rebels will have retired in despair, changed sides or been bumped off by then.
the usual assorted chechens, uzbeks, TSPians, somalis, qataris, saudis , yemenis would rule the roost, with a smattering of euros, indonesians and other far flung opportunists.

whatever rebel movement there was is methodically being hijacked by the jihadi factions who have deeper pockets, foreign funding and deeper pool of recruits.

iran and its proxies will have to step up their game and formate some "irregular militias" to answer fire with fire like the russians kept some dreaded chechen pro-govt militias on their payroll to fight their underground war off the books.
Singha ji, if you think about it countries like Syria, Libya, Afganistan, Somalia etc are nothing but Jihad Universities where students of Jihad doctrine come from all over the islamic world and gain much valuable practical experience like Urban Warfare, laying IEDs, Planning an ambush, kidnapping, Torture etc.Not to mention the networking and linkages such stints bring. The top graduates of these universities who manage to survive the conflicts will then cause mayhem in various cities of the world for years to come if not decades. West is playing a very dangerous game. You cannot ride the tiger forever.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 23:09
by pushkar.bhat
I say lets give the Nobel Peace Prize to Vlad Putin :)

CNN Breaking News
Russian President Vladimir Putin says the United States and its allies should "pledge to renounce the use of force" as world powers work to deal with the Syrian chemical weapons issue.

"It is difficult to make any country -- Syria or any other country in the world -- to unilaterally disarm if there is military action against it under consideration," he told Russian TV today.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 23:28
by Prem
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... -chellaney
America’s Islamist Allies of Convenience

(XXXXXPost)
NEW DELHI – In just one decade, the United States has intervened militarily in three Muslim-majority countries and overthrown their governments. Now the same coalition of American liberal interventionists and neoconservatives that promoted those wars is pushing for punitive airstrikes in Syria without reflecting on how US policy has ended up strengthening Islamists and fostering anti-Americanism. Indeed, the last “humanitarian intervention” has clearly backfired, turning Libya into a breeding ground for transnational militants.
As the intense US debate about President Barack Obama’s proposed use of military force highlights, the attack-Syria push is not about upholding America’s national interest. Rather, the desire to protect US “credibility” has become the last refuge of those seeking yet another war in the wider Middle East.
f “credibility” were purged from the debate and the focus placed squarely on advancing long-term US interests, it would become apparent that an attack on Syria might not yield even temporary geopolitical gains. Beyond the short term, it would unleash major unintended consequences, potentially including an Iraq-style “soft” partition of Syria and the creation of a haven for extremists stretching across much of Islamist-controlled northern Syria and into the Sunni areas of Iraq.
Indeed, an attack would most likely increase America’s reliance on unsavory Islamist rulers in countries ranging from Saudi Arabia and Qatar to Turkey and the United Arab Emirates. Some Arab monarchs have pledged to bankroll the US attack – an investment that they would easily recover, given that the war talk has already increased oil prices. hAl Qaeda-type groups already have gained ground in the Middle East and North Africa as an unintended byproduct of US policies, creating fertile conditions for stepped-up international terrorism in the coming years. The US invasion and occupation of Iraq, for example, created a major opening for Al Qaeda, whose affiliates now represent the Sunni struggle against the Shia-dominated government.Likewise, regime change in Libya aided the rise of Al Qaeda-linked militants, leading to the killing in Benghazi of the US ambassador. A system based on sharia (Islamic law) has been imposed, human-rights abuses are legion, and cross-border movement of weapons and militants has undermined the security of Libya’s neighbors.meanwhile, America’s support for the regimes in Yemen and Saudi Arabia has contributed to the rise of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. In parts of southern Yemen, an Al Qaeda affiliate, Ansar al-Sharia, functions as a de facto government.
hIn Syria, where sizable chunks of territory are already under Islamist control and the pro-Al Qaeda Al Nusra Front overshadows the US-backed Free Syrian Army, the Obama administration is staring at the bitter harvest of its previous policy choices. Airstrikes now would merely make matters worse by undercutting the FSA’s grassroots legitimacy and aiding Islamist forces.Farther east, the US wants an “honorable” exit from Afghanistan – the longest war in its history – through a peace deal with the Taliban, its main battlefield opponent. In seeking to co-opt the Taliban – an effort that has resulted in the Taliban establishing what amounts to a diplomatic mission in Doha, Qatar – the US is bestowing legitimacy on a thuggish militia that enforces medieval practices in the areas under its control.
hAmerica’s dalliances with Islamist-leaning political forces – and governments – have been guided by the notion that the cloak of Islam helps to protect the credibility of leaders who might otherwise be seen as foreign puppets. That simply will not work, even in the short term. On the contrary, until the Egyptian army removed him from the presidency, the Muslim Brotherhood’s Mohamed Morsi was coming to be seen by many as America’s man in Cairo.
In the long term, the US will gain nothing – and risk much – by continuing to back oil sheikhdoms that fund Muslim extremist groups and madrasas from the Philippines and India to South Africa and Venezuela. By supporting Islamist rulers, the US is contributing to a trend evident from the Maghreb to the badlands of Afghanistan and Pakistan – Muslims killing Muslims.American policy has also contributed to a growing conflict between Islamist and secular forces in Muslim countries. This is best illustrated by Turkey, where Obama has ignored Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s heavy-handed efforts to annul free speech and turn himself into a twenty-first-century Sultan.
the US, motivated by the larger geopolitical goal of containing Shia Iran and its regional allies, has embraced Sunni rulers steeped in religious and political bigotry, even though they pose a transnational threat to the values of freedom and secularism. Moreover, the clash within Islam is likely to be destabilizing regionally and counterproductive to the interests of the free world. Obama should heed the doctrine proposed in 1991 by General Colin Powell. The Powell doctrine stipulates that the US should use military force only when a vital national-security interest is at stake; the strategic objective is clear and attainable; the benefits are likely to outweigh the costs; adverse consequences can be limited; broad international and domestic support has been obtained; and a plausible exit strategy is in place.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 23:34
by Austin
Putting Syrian chemical weapons under intl control makes sense only if US drops plans to use force - Putin

"Certainly, all this makes sense and can work only if we hear that the U.S. side and everyone who supports the U.S. in this sense drops the idea of using force," Putin said on Tuesday.

"It is hard to make any country, be it Syria or any other country in the world, disarm unilaterally if some forcible action is being prepared against it," he said.

"We will work together with the Syrians and with our American partners," he said.

"I'd like to reiterate that I hope this will be a good step toward a peaceful resolution of the crisis," Putin said.

Also Russia expects the Syrian government not only to agree that its chemical weapons be put under control but also that they should be disposed of and that Syria should join the relevant international convention, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

"We presume that this is not only possible, but we also hope that our Syrian partners and friends will make this crucial decision, that they will not only agree that their chemical weapons should be put under control but also agree that they should further be destroyed and that [Syria] should join the international convention on the prohibition of chemical weapons," Putin said.

"This would be a very good step on the way of the Syrian crisis' peaceful resolution," Putin said.

"We also think that this is a serious issue requiring additional serious consideration. These very days the Syrian foreign minister is staying in Russia and our Foreign Minister [Sergei] Lavrov held corresponding consultations with him, the Syrian colleague with his own political leadership and we have heard about the positive reaction of the Syrian side to these proposals," Putin said.

He remarked that US Secretary of State John Kerry made a public statement in London on Monday that the USA considers the question of placing chemical weapons in Syria under international control extremely important for the settlement in Syria as a whole.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 10 Sep 2013 23:57
by Austin
President Assad: US 'foolish' to strike Syria
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad has warned of the regional repercussions if the US was to launch military action against Syria.

Speaking to Charlie Rose in a PBS interview, the president said the US would be "foolish" to pursue strikes.

"If you strike somewhere you have to expect the repercussions somewhere else in different forms, in ways that you don't expect," he said.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 00:11
by Lilo
^^
Massa doesn't understand the Law of Karma. Actually on a second thought, methinks Massa feels that its not applicable to them.

Which makes this precisely a case of the myth of so called American Exceptionalism gone to the head.

So terms like "repercussions" "collateral damage" "civilian casualties" etc go right over its head unless they are some how helping build a case to militarily strike at a longterm strategic foe.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 00:13
by Garooda
Syria backs chemical weapons plan, bombs Damascus
While the diplomatic wrangling was under way in far-flung capitals, Assad's warplanes bombed rebellious districts of Damascus on Tuesday for the first time since the August 21 poison gas attacks. Rebels said the air strikes were a demonstration that the government now believed the West had lost its nerve.

"By sending the planes back, the regime is sending the message that it no longer feels international pressure," activist Wasim al-Ahmad said from Mouadamiya, one of the districts of the capital hit by the chemical attack.

Just as anticipated :) Tactic to buy more time while continue to push forward by Assad.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 00:28
by ramana
Why is Brahma Chellaney worrying about US actions? They can take care of themselves.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 01:53
by vishvak
Reduced chances of war surge markets in EU, decrease prices of oil, gold link
An effect of peace. A confrontation will increase price of oil.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 02:47
by svinayak
US distances itself, then retools response to Russian idea for Syrian chemical ...

Syria vows to give up chemical weapons, no deal yet at UN

UN Meeting on Syria has been cancelled

Russia says New developments



Every hour things are changing

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 02:50
by KrishnaK
Austin wrote:
habal wrote:there is a group, the frontline group in State Dept and White House that wants war at any cost. Look at how this group have subverted the Russian offer and have induced clause that Syrians had committed a crime in Ghouta into their resolution. This means they want war at any cost. Obama has to tow the line of this group. He has no option.

But in private, he is amenable to finding a way out.

This means that the group is a pressure group working on behalf some interest to put public pressure on Obama stance through vitriol and hateful messages.

This group is doing cheap sociological & psychological tricks in 21st century ! Their sponsors may well be a group capable of blackmail and steep violence. Obama is being shown as a puppet, & Kerry has been outed as a nut case. It is like they have put the entire state of US at notice and these guys are trembling.
US MIC thrives on War ...... and most of these MIC also fund these political parties so War is a Good News for them , coz they can churn out more equipment and Pentagon would fund them. If US Army is saturated then private mercenaries like Blackwater crop up ( remember Iraq ? ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater ... _shootings

It is no coincidence that every decade US Military is always in war in some part of the world mostly on Flimsy grounds and that is in great part to their MIC.

Every US President is under tremendous pressure to oblige to these MIC lobbies , How Obama manages to take a decision inspite of these competing pressure is what would make the difference.
Conspiracy onleeeeeee :((

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 02:57
by svinayak

Obama welcomes Russia's plan for Syria; U.S. strike off for now

AP source: Kerry to see Russian FM in Geneva

Question of enforcement casts cloud on Syria plan

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 05:00
by Philip
Bandar is going to miss all his moolah if there is no war! There will be attempts to sabotage the deal.

The true story of the Libyan Bhengazi consulate attack? The link has supporting video clips as well.Intriguing stufff.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/s ... -challenge

US consulate attack in Benghazi: a challenge to official version of events

A year after the first US ambassador in 33 years was killed on duty, Chris Stephen, one of the first western reporters on the scene in Benghazi, pieces together what really happened from witness accounts, official reports, and the ruins of the compound

Chris Stephen in Tripoli and Benghazi
The Guardian, Monday 9 September 2013

The attack on the US consulate in Benghazi was striking for a number of reasons: the date, 11 September, the toll – four diplomats killed, including an ambassador – and the knock-on effects on the careers of senior American politicians.

But what is perhaps most striking is the inconsistencies: the US version of events compared with those of witnesses and the facts on the ground. The two do not tally. And so, a year later, there remain pressing questions about what happened that night – and what the Americans say happened.
6:43am

Event Staff at the US special mission in Benghazi woke on 11 September to the sight of a Libyan policeman, deployed to guard them, filming the compound from a neighbouring rooftop. When challenged, he vanished. Later, an unmarked car made lazy circles around the compound, a walled redoubt rented in the southern suburbs of the Libyan city.

US version The state department says there were no warning of impending attack, a spokesman insisting there was "nothing unusual during the day at all".

Conflicting evidence Two days earlier, the ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens, had received a veiled warning. According to one of his cables, one of his diplomats had a meeting with two Islamist militia leaders in which they complained that the US was supporting a secular leader, Mahmoud Jibril, in a vote for prime minister due on 12 September. If Jibril won, they warned, they would "no longer guarantee security". The consulate was already relying on one of the militias, the February 17th Martyrs Brigade, for armed protection.

In the words of a subsequent report by the US Senate's homeland security committee, warning lights were "flashing red". As the day went on, news came in of attacks by radicals on the US embassy in Cairo, a response to a film, the Innocence of Muslims, released in America which mocked Muhammad. The CIA sent a cable to its foreign stations warning of possible copycat incidents.

The anniversary of the 9/11 attacks also preyed on the minds of compound staff in Benghazi. In a letter found in the ruins by the Guardian, Stevens wrote: "For security reasons, we'll need to be careful about limiting moves off compound and scheduling as many meetings as possible in the villa."

At least one man inside the compound was anxious. Sean Smith, a 34-year-old information management officer accompanying the ambassador on the visit, emailed a friend: "Assuming we don't die tonight. We saw one of our 'police' that guard the compound taking pictures." Hours later, he was dead.
9:30pm
Link to video: Was the Benghazi US consulate attack out of the blue?

Events Diners at the Venezia, an upmarket restaurant across the street from the mission, watch as a dozen armed militiamen gathered in the dusk by the compound's rear gate. The compound comprises four buildings spaced among gardens and surrounded by a breezeblock wall.

One of the militia jeeps bore the black banner of a local Islamist militia, Ansar al-Sharia. The militiamen made no attempt to hide. Men sipping coffee on the pavement outside a nearby cafe saw two pickup trucks packed with militiamen bearing the same banner heading for the mission. Neighbours saw militia 4X4s blocking streets leading to the compound. All were surprised there was no reaction from the compound.

"There were eight to twelve guys, just hanging around, by the gate," one diner said. "They had guns, they were just waiting. There was one Ansar Al Sharia flag. About ten minutes later there were these booms from over the other side (of the compound). The gate came open and this guy put his head out and they shouted at him, get back inside."

US version The state department insists the compound had been well fortified in the spring. The walls had been raised to 3.6 metres (12ft) and topped with barbed wire and concertina barbed wire. The villa had been prepared as a redoubt in the event the walls were breached. It was surrounded by sandbagged emplacements and fitted with grilles on the windows and bulletproof steel doors. Security cameras covered the site.

Conflicting evidence Most of the wall running around the compound had not been heightened beyond around 8ft. The rear wall also had no wire. Two days after the attack the landlord showed the Guardian where attackers had scrambled over. "It was easy for them," he said. Whether cameras were mounted outside the compound is unclear. But failure to see what diners at the Venezia could see in the 10 minutes before the attack would have catastrophic consequences.
9.42pm

Events The diners heard muffled explosions from the far side of the compound. The militiamen outside readied their weapons. Then the metal gate swung open and an unarmed Libyan guard put his head out. One of the militiamen ordered him back inside. The guard pulled the door closed. After a few moments, the militiamen opened fire. "At that moment everyone ran to the back of the restaurant," said one diner.

The first thing occupants of the compound knew about the forces massing against them was the sound of shouting and detonations at the front entrance. Gunmen got in by walking up to a small cabin by the front gate, jamming a gun in the face of an unarmed Libyan guard and demanding he open up.

On the monitor at the communications hub known as the tactical operations centre (TOC), an agent from diplomatic security service (DSS), the state department's security force, saw the front gate open, armed men streaming through, and Libyan guards running for their lives. He activated the alarm.

US version The state department insists security was more than adequate that night, because five DSS agents were in place, more than the recommended three, supported by five unarmed Libyan guards and three armed militiamen from the February 17 brigade.

Conflicting evidence In the preceding months Stevens had cabled three times (7 June, 9 July, and 15 August) asking for more protection or that plans to draw down security be halted, according to the House oversight report. Those months had seen escalating attacks against foreign targets in the city. Commonwealth war graves had been smashed, the Tunisian consulate stormed, a Sudanese diplomat attacked, a UN convoy bombed and the office of the International Committee of the Red Cross rocketed. After two bodyguards of British ambassador Dominic Asquith were wounded in a rocket attack on the UK consulate, London closed its mission down. The US mission had been struck twice by home made bombs thrown at the outside wall.

But even as attacks in Benghazi escalated, Washington decreased security, in line with its official position that Libya, post revolution, was normalising. Three quick-reaction DSS units, named situation security teams, deployed in Tripoli, were withdrawn in the summer, despite objections from their chief, Colonel Andrew Wood. He later told CBS that losing those units was like "being asked to play the piano with two fingers".

On 15 August, the day after Wood was withdrawn, Stevens cabled Washington to say that security in Benghazi was left dangerously exposed. He worried that February 17 was becoming unreliable: a dispute over payment by the embassy meant the brigade's militiamen no longer guarded convoys outside the compound. In addition, the police officers supposed to guard the mission were often late. "Many hours pass when we have no police support at all", he wrote.

The Pentagon's regional headquarters, Africa Command, based in Stuttgart, Germany, offered to send soldiers to fill the gap, but Stevens declined, according to an official review of the incident (pdf). The result was that on the night of 11 September dozens of attackers were surging through the main gates, ranged against a force of five DSS agents.

There are questions over the readiness of this small security detail. Four of the agents were with Stevens as the attack happened, while the fifth was in the TOC. In the event the outside wall was breached, the procedure was to take position at the sandbagged emplacements. But three of the four agents with Stevens had left their rifles, helmets and body armour in the accommodation block, according to the official review by the accountability review board, ordered by former secretary of state Hillary Clinton. Standard procedure for the US army in hostile deployment is for weapons to be carried at all times, even on trips to the bathroom. Why the DSS agents did not have a similar rule is unclear.

They sprinted across the compound to the accommodation block to get their weapons while the remaining agent, who had his rifle, hustled Stevens and Smith inside. By the time the other three had their weapons, attackers were around the villa blocking their path. They retreated, locking themselves into safe rooms in the barracks and TOC, along with the agent already there. With only one DSS agent at the villa, the plan for all-round defence was no longer possible.
9.50pm
Link to video: Benghazi attack: was the US consulate compound properly defended?

Events Inside the villa, Stevens sent a frantic message to Gregory Hicks, America's deputy ambassador in Tripoli, telling him: "We're under attack," according to Hicks's testimony to a House of Representatives committee. The chief of Benghazi's supreme security committee, Libya's gendarmerie, Fawzi Yunis Gaddafi, no relation to the former dictator, was phoned by frantic diplomats. "I spoke to the Americans, they were saying 'please help us'," he told the Guardian.

Inside the compound, the attackers set fire to the guard house near the gate and others rushed to the villa. A rocket-propelled grenade slammed into the lintel above the front doors, jarring them open, and gunmen rushed inside. The lone DSS agent led Stevens and Smith into a final place of refuge, the "safe haven", and locked the gate. Gunmen, unable to penetrate the refuge, dragged furniture outside and threw it into the pool. Others wrecked the villa interior, poured fuel on the floor and set it alight.

US version The safe haven was a walled-off section of the villa constructed with sturdy doors to provide a final refuge in the event the villa was stormed.

Conflicting evidence The safe haven, constructed in the spring, had a serious flaw. The door to the haven was not solid metal, but a gate of thick steel bars, secured by two locks. Its obvious disadvantage was that it offered no protection against smoke should the villa be set on fire.
10:15pm

Events In minutes the villa was blazing fiercely, filling the safe haven with smoke. The DSS agent led Stevens and Smith to an escape hatch in the wall. He tumbled out to the patio outside, only to find the diplomats had not followed. He returned to hunt for them, but was forced back by the smoke. Finally, gasping for breath, he clambered up a ladder to the roof where he phoned his DSS comrades.

The other DSS agents, meanwhile, were locked in the two safe rooms built in the TOC and barracks. The attackers entered the buildings, ransacked each and set them on fire, but did not penetrate the safe rooms.

On the roof of the villa, the agent, his voice hoarse from smoke inhalation, phoned his comrades and told them the situation. The four agents broke out of their safe rooms and met him. Nearby was a white armoured 4X4 which the attackers had not wrecked. The location of the attackers was not clear. The agents were able to get into the vehicle, start the engine and drive the short distance across the compound to the blazing villa. Here, they too went into the safe haven to look for the diplomats, but were driven back by the smoke.

US version State department accounts say the agents were under prolonged fire throughout their ordeal, with battle raging in the compound grounds. "There is considerable firing going on outside," one spokesman briefed journalists. "There are tracer bullets. There is smoke … there are explosions. I can't tell you that they were RPGs, but I think they were RPGs. So there's a lot of action going on."

Conflicting evidence The testimony of heavy fighting is hard to reconcile with the lack of bullet holes in the buildings. The villa's sandy walls are still blackened by the smoke from the fire, but there are few bullet marks here or on the other buildings, nor are there spent casings visible, at least on the paths and asphalt. The front gate has no sign of damage except two bullet holes. The only sign of heavy firing is at the rear gate, with holes from 23 rounds fired into the compound and six fired out. This gunfight is not mentioned in accounts made public. From the time of the attack to the time they were summoned, four of the five DSS agents were in hiding.
10.25pm
Link to video: Benghazi consulate attack: Could ambassador Stevens have been saved?

Events A six-strong force of Americans with 40 friendly militiamen fought their way through to the compound from a second US base a mile away. At 10.50pm the message "firing has stopped" was sent to Washington.

At the villa, they met the five DSS agents, suffering from smoke inhalation, and got into the safe haven through the escape hatch. They found the body of Smith and dragged it out. Stevens was still missing. The compound was now clear of attackers and the reinforcements took charge, ordering the five DSS agents to leave. Outside the compound their 4X4 was ambushed, bullets slamming into the bodywork and shredding two tyres, but they made it to the second compound. The new force spent 15 minutes hunting for Stevens before deciding they were too few of them in the event of a new attack. At 11pm they abandoned the site with Stevens still inside the villa.

US version The most authoritative of half a dozen investigations initiated in Washington is the accountability review board report, mandated by law. According to the report, compiled by senior intelligence and state department officials, the relief force are "US personnel" and their base an "annexe" to the mission. Charlene Lamb, the state department official responsible for embassy security, testified that the reinforcements were a "quick-reaction team stationed nearby". The Senate's homeland security report described the second base as a place "used by another agency of the United States government". America's UN ambassador, Susan Rice, said the second base was "its annexe".

Conflicting evidence The second base was not an annexe, but a CIA facility, according to Frank Wolf, a US congressman who represents the district that contains CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.. It operated independently from the consulate, and its staff of between 22 and 26 agents dwarfed that of the consulate, and its normal complement of two diplomats.

It was these agents who formed the force that battled into the compound and took charge. Yet the term "CIA" did not appear once in the otherwise minutely detailed unclassified version of the accountability review board report.

The apparent desire to shield the CIA from scrutiny in Washington reached farcical proportions last November when Lamb testified to the House of Representatives' oversight committee.

She produced a blow-up photograph of the CIA facility, but before she could explain what it was, panel member Jason Chaffetz, a Republican congressman from Utah, called for it to be removed. The committee chair, Darrell Issa, another Republican, was at first incredulous: "These are people from the state department … I assume they wouldn't come here unless it's cleared."

Chaffetz stuck to his guns: "Mr Chairman, I was told specifically while I was in Libya I could not and should not talk ever about what you are showing here today."

Lamb's team confirmed the photograph was not classified and was available on Google Earth. After a short discussion, Issa ordered it removed: "We're not going to point out details of what may still in fact be a facility of the United States government."

In fact, by the time Issa spoke, the compound in Benghazi was no longer a US facility. The two landlords who owned it showed the site to the Guardian two days after the attack, pointing to the Libyan families they were already moving into the accommodation vacated by the Americans. Signs of the US tenants were still visible: blood covered one wall, a whiteboard by the gate bore the instruction "Take out your trash" and the American's equipment in black packs was stacked on a wall awaiting collection. And the place had never been secret, at least not from Benghazi residents. The landlords insisted neighbours in the tree-lined residential street knew Americans lived there and that their vehicles were a familiar sight.

The bigger question, so far unanswered, is what the CIA was doing in Benghazi. Neither the accountancy review board, the state department nor half a dozen congressional committees investigating the death of Stevens have made any public comment on the role of the CIA; nor have congressional committees tasked with performing the role of scrutinising the government on behalf of the electorate.
00.00 12 September
Link to video: Benghazi US consulate attack: why is no one talking about the CIA mission?

Events Shortly after the CIA and DSS units arrived at the CIA base, it came under rocket attack. The occupants braced themselves for an assault. Meanwhile, seven embassy and CIA staff in Tripoli chartered a plane and flew to Benghazi, to be met by February 17 militia who escorted them across town to the CIA base. They arrived at 5am. Minutes later, it came under mortar attack. The first bomb fell beyond the walls, but the attackers then "walked" the shells into the compound. Two shells exploded on the roof, killing two CIA security contractors, Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods. A third man was wounded.

At dawn, reinforcements from February 17 and the Libyan police arrived at the base. They escorted the Americans to the airport for evacuation to Tripoli.

US version Evidence given to the accountability review board described an assault against the base with heavy small arms fire.

Conflicting evidence The lack of bullet marks on the walls of the facility does not square with reports that it was assaulted. Rockets were fired at one wall, and mortar bombs struck the roof, suggesting the firing was opportunistic and from a distance, rather than an attempt to overrun the CIA compound.
00.15

Events When the CIA team abandoned the consulate, crowds of local men and boys gathered at the edge of the fighting moved inside. The fires had died down and they gingerly explored, finding the unsecured window into the safe room. Inside they found Stevens, lying in shirtsleeves on the floor. A video, timed at quarter-past midnight, shows them carrying the ambassador outside on to the patio. When he shows signs of life there are cries of Allahu Akbar – God is Great – and bystanders discuss getting him to hospital.

US version Washington maintains that every possible effort was made to locate Stevens in the hours after the attack.

Conflicting evidence Bystanders put Stevens into a private car. A wounded Libyan guard who left his bloody handprint by the front gate was located and put into a second car. The two cars raced to the city's main casualty hospital, Benghazi Medical Centre. Its director, Dr Fathi al-Jerami, said staff were astonished when the two casualties arrived at the emergency ramp, with the Libyan guard insisting his companion was the ambassador. Medics could not imagine the ambassador would be left unguarded, nor that, if he was missing, no official would try to contact the hospital. He was rushed inside and doctors fought for 90 minutes to revive him before declaring him dead.

Still with no communication from US officials, a hospital official found a mobile phone in Stevens pocket and began punching out dialled numbers. One of these was the phone of an agent now in the CIA base, but the official's English was too rudimentary.

Only in the morning, with US officials being evacuated to the airport, did Americans go to the hospital, to be given Stevens' body. Pictures of the dead ambassador uploaded by Libyans spread across the internet.
16 September
Link to video: Benghazi: Why was it local Libyans who tried to rescue ambassador Chris Stevens?

Events On the Sunday following the attack, Susan Rice, America's ambassador to the UN, gave interviews to TV networks ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and Fox News to offer an explanation for the attacks on Benghazi.

US version Rice said she believed the attack was the result of a protest against the Innocence of Muslims film which had escalated: "The currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the US embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the US diplomatic post in Benghazi and subsequently its annexe," she said. "There are indications that extremists participated in the violent demonstrations."

Conflicting evidence Within hours, her claim was being disputed in Libya. Mohammed Magaraif, Speaker of the Libyan Congress, was visiting Benghazi to meet survivors and blamed elements of Ansar al-Sharia's militia for the attack. His comments matched those of witnesses.

In America many were surprised Rice was chosen to make a statement about the death of the first US ambassador to be killed since 1979. More properly, the announcement belonged to Hillary Clinton, or possibly the president himself. There was speculation that Rice, the president's foreign policy adviser during his 2008 election campaign, was being given a high profile in readiness for her to step into Clinton's shoes if Obama won a second term in the November election.

Evidence from the US survivors, debriefed on American soil, confirmed the Libyan version of events. There was no protest. Unlike much of the Muslim world, Libya saw no protests against the release of Innocence of Muslims. Ten days after the consulate was stormed, thousands of Benghazi residents, some carrying American flags and placards mourning Stevens, stormed the base of Sharia, setting it ablaze.

Arguments broke out over who gave Rice the information leading her to declare the attack the result of a protest. It morphed into fierce arguments over Obama's competence in the runup to the election. After his re-election, Obama named Rice as secretary of state. Republicans in Congress blocked the nomination, saying they no longer trusted Rice as a result of her Benghazi remarks.
2012-present

Events The FBI opened an inquiry into the Benghazi killings in September. In August 2013 the justice department announced an undisclosed number of indictments against unnamed suspects. Leaks from the Obama administration named Sharia's commander, Ahmed Abu Khattala, as among the suspects. Khattala gave media interviews in Benghazi saying he was at the scene of the attack, but insisting he had come to offer help.

Two Tunisian suspects were arrested in Turkey, and an Egyptian was shot dead in an arrest operation by Cairo police. Libya announced it had made several arrests, but no one was brought to trial. The father of one of those arrested told the Guardian those held were charged, like his son, with looting.

US version On 9 August 2013, Obama said the investigation into the attacks remained "top priority". He added: "We're going to stay on it until we get them." Issa promised that he and his House committee would continue its scrutiny until it got to the truth: "It is our job to work tirelessly in partnership with citizens watchdogs to deliver the facts to the American people."

Conflicting evidence It took four weeks for the FBI to travel to the Benghazi consulate site. By that time the area had been combed over by journalists and the curious, contaminating the evidence. Even after the FBI visit, it was possible for the Guardian to recover classified documents scattered there. In Tripoli, diplomats contrasted the slowness of the FBI with French forensic specialists who were on the ground the day after France's embassy in Tripoli was bombed in April.

Congressional committees continue to grind through the evidence and excise all mention of the CIA.

One year after the killings, no suspects have appeared in court, either in Libya or in the US. Until that happens, and until the gap between claims made in the US and reality on the ground is explained, the American public will remain in the dark about the events of 11 September 2012 in Benghazi.
The version given above indicates a cover up by the O'Bomber administration,esp. what was the President doing when the attack was on and why was he missing?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 05:16
by svinayak

Syria pledges to sign chemical weapons treaty and reveal scale of stockpile

Colorado's U.S. Congressman Jared Polis argues against military action in Syria

Obama puts off war vote in Congress to explore Russian-brokered deal with Syria

Congress dodged a politically perilous vote on Syria — for now.

Obama puts off war vote in Congress to explore Russian-brokered deal with Syria

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 05:17
by svinayak
Watch live 9 p.m EST.: Obama addresses the nation about situation in Syria

President Barack Obama will address the nation tonight at 9 p.m. EST about the situation in Syria. He has asked Congress to authorize a military strike on Syria after intelligence reports that Bashar Assad's government used chemical weapons against its own ...

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 05:22
by Rudradev
TSJones wrote:It would have been fun to see if a 4,000 lb bunker buster dropped on Assad's personal fiefdom 200 ft below ground could shake things up a bit. Oh well, maybe next time. :)

.
Awww, TSJ trying to put a brave face on a full-blown downhill skiing Kargil style retreat. "Well we ain't gonna strike Assad after all, cause Mr. Putin assured us he'd take the toys away." Cute idinit.

Ahem. Puck-puck-puck-puck-KWAARK... cluck cluck cluck :mrgreen:

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 05:47
by ramana
Putin's gambit has saved Syria for now. But need to see how long Assad is able to stay in power and consolidate the state. This will turn the jihadis on their sponsors.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 06:37
by RamaY
Obama made his pitch. He failed to explain

1. Why he think the attach was done by Syrian regime and not rebels.
2. Why UsA need to attack even if there is no UN sanction.
3. How his pinstrike or awe and wow attack will impact the ground situation, if Assad is not impacted
4. What if Assad becomes successful in controlling the law and order situation despite of all these EJism?
5. Most importantly what is there for USA?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 07:33
by Philip
Saudi spokesman,"Codger" Cameron appears to be speaking on behalf of the kingdoms and sheikhdoms who are gnashing their teeth as O'Bomber gets stagefright in bombing Syria.If Syria remains untouched,the Saudis alone stand to lose $200-400B in extra windfall gains by beggaring nations like us in paying vast extra sums for oil.
Codger is also desperate for new Typhoon orders from these oily potentates which can be paid for by these windfall gains,hence his desperation that the attacks will be indefinitely postponed.Testing times indeed!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 06595.html

Is Syria's plan just a 'ruse'? David Cameron seeks urgent UN resolution to test proposal

PM fears plan to move Syria’s chemical weapons to internationally controlled sites inside the country could be 'delaying tactics' to buy time for Assad regime

Britain, America and France were calling on Russia tonight to back a binding UN resolution requiring Syria to surrender its chemical weapons within as little as 45 days.

Western diplomats in New York were still drawing up a resolution that would set a deadline for Syria’s President, Bashar al-Assad, to hand over control of his weapons stockpiles to international authorities.

And in what could become a test of the sincerity of Vladimir Putin, the Russian President, the resolution could potentially include authorisation for eventual force against Syria under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter should it not comply.

This is likely to be strongly opposed by Russia. Tonight President Putin insisted that the peace plan would only work “if the US and those who support it renounce the use of force”. Ominously perhaps, Russia at the last minute withdrew a request for a Security Council meeting that had been set for tonight.

In another day of dizzying diplomatic activity, David Cameron and President Barack Obama announced that they would table a resolution at the UN Security Council encapsulating the proposal uttered first, almost as if by mistake, by Secretary of State John Kerry in London on Monday and then taken up in more urgent and concrete terms by the Russian Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, in Moscow.

Under the Russian plan Syria’s chemical weapons would be moved to internationally controlled sites inside the country where they could be destroyed. In an attempt to bolster its credibility, Syria said it would for the first time sign the Chemical Weapons Convention. Mr Kerry meanwhile plans to hold direct talks with Mr Lavrov in Geneva tomorrow.

In London, following a telephone call with Mr Obama, Mr Cameron told MPs he was sceptical about Russia’s intentions but suggested the proposals were worth exploring. “If we can achieve the removal and the destruction of the biggest chemical weapons arsenal in the world, that would be a significant step forward,” he said. “So it is definitely worth exploring but we must be sceptical, we must be careful, we must enter this with a very hard head and some pretty cool calculations, because we do not want this to be some delaying tactic, some ruse to just buy time for a regime that must act on chemical weapons.”

However government sources dismissed suggestions that the Prime Minister might return to Parliament to seek approval for the UK to join in military action should the Assad regime not comply.

In a tricky dual-track approach, President Obama was set in an address from the Oval Office tonight to reaffirm his case for military strikes against Syria while at the same time allowing space for a diplomatic solution. He earlier requested that votes in Congress on the issue be postponed pending diplomatic developments.

The plan for a non-violent solution was quickly embraced on Capitol Hill where Senate and House leaders were hastily revising a resolution to put to Congress authorising strikes to take the Russian plan into account. It would set a deadline, possibly of 45 days, for the UN successfully to hold Syria to account and to secure all its chemical weapons. If the effort falls short then Mr Obama would be authorised to launch strikes.

But many things could still trip the effort, including Russian opposition to any Chapter 7 reference as well as any language explicitly condemning the Assad regime for using chemical weapons. Crucially, however, China tonight indicated its support at least for the notion of Syria giving up the weapons.

And then there is the question of Syrian compliance. The Syrian Prime Minister, Wael Nader al-Halqi, and Foreign Minister, Walid al-Moallem, both said that Syria was ready to accept the plan and hand over all its chemical weapons. There was no word, however, from President Assad.

Mr Lavrov promised to move fast. “We are hoping to present this plan in the near future,” he said. “We will be ready to work through this plan and improve it with the participation of the UN Secretary General, chemical weapons control organisations and the members of the Security Council.”

Kerry stumbles across escape route from war

At times of crisis diplomats know to weigh and calibrate every word they utter, particularly if reporters are about.

Yet there was John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, telling a CBS correspondent out of the blue that if Syria surrendered “every single bit” of its chemical weapons arsenal this crisis would be over.

The remark got Washington scurrying. Do NOT take this seriously, the State Department advised in a media statement.

Discipline, forward thinking, consideration of every possible consequence – all seem to have been lacking from the start.

From which buried synapse did Mr Kerry’s notion of Syria relinquishing its weapons come from exactly? It turns out the thought was not entirely random.

Barack Obama late on Monday revealed that pressuring Syria to hand over its weapons came up during a private meeting last Friday with Vladimir Putin in St Petersburg. Mr Kerry mis-spoke about a possible solution, Russia within hours ran with it, and maybe, just maybe, the escape hatch from war has been opened.

David Usborne

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 07:55
by devesh
what is striking in Obama's speech is that there is no mention of "removing" Assad. Obama categorically denies any attempts or plans to depose the existing Govt. he went so far as to say that such course of action would make US "responsible for what comes after". meaning, neither Obama nor the US strategic establishment are interested in a course of action which would put the US directly in the driver's seat of a post-Assad Syria.

this is good news. anything that grinds the Jihadi war machine to a halt and gives them a bloody experience with no fruits is a good thing. it helps the progress of humanity and the human civilization. the more obstacles the Jihadis have in their path to global domination, the better.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 08:04
by Singha
hopefully some of these expat jihadis will see writing on wall and return back to burn their sponsors and creators sipping wine behind the walls of palaces, fondling some hoori...while bcasting pious prayers over the mike.

piousness and purity must be enforced inside the palaces first. jihadi chaperons can accompany saudi princes on their booze and whore trips to zurich and london to enforce the rules.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 08:17
by habal
Can't see how Syria can agree to surrender of chemical weapons unless Russia can offer guarantee of Syrian sovereignty and agree to bring it under their nuclear cover. If Syria doesn't get both of them or some kind of WMDs in return, it will be a major strategic blunder.

McCain's freedom fighters:
Christian woman is tied to a pillar in Aleppo, Syria, by an al-Qaeda-linked gang and left with a note encouraging by-passers to spit on her.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=20c_1378836959
McCain's freedom fries:
The Farouk Brigade hangs out at the pool of the Safir Hotel in Maaloula ... boom!

precisely @2:12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UefPeAn6CCs

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 08:29
by Anant
Bashar Ass-ad will be pulling a Qadaffy-duck soon. Effectively defanged of his chemical weapons, his edge against the rebels will be eroded. Sovereignty will also be in the toilet. The US will arm the rebels and whatever conventional weapons advantage the Syrian army had will be gone or soon going. If he does gas again, he's going to hasten his qadaffy-duck imitation. I know many in this room have canonized ole' Ass-ad or made Putin the next coming of Einstein but all topless Judoka has done is made Ass-ad a eunuch and soon to be dead guy.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 08:48
by habal
Anant wrote:Bashar Ass-ad will be pulling a Qadaffy-duck soon. Effectively defanged of his chemical weapons, his edge against the rebels will be eroded. Sovereignty will also be in the toilet. The US will arm the rebels and whatever conventional weapons advantage the Syrian army had will be gone or soon going. If he does gas again, he's going to hasten his qadaffy-duck imitation. I know many in this room have canonized ole' Ass-ad or made Putin the next coming of Einstein but all topless Judoka has done is made Ass-ad a eunuch and soon to be dead guy.
Ok, but what do you gain ? Why are you ready to lose your conscience in the lust for seeing Bashar al-Assad decapitated ?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 08:53
by Anant
Habal,

It doesn't matter what I gain or lose. It is what humanity gains. The fact that a person could gas innocent men, women and especially children is beyond the pale of civility. Get it? Tell me what part of this is obtuse to you. And no it doesn't matter one iota who did it. As the ruler of the land, it is your responsibility to see that either these heinous weapons don't exist or are amply secured--or more likely, the fact that he had to resort to something so dastardly to keep himself in power. So, yes, I will take every joy seeing him qaddafy-ducked.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:03
by Lilo
^ Anant ji,
There is another case of mass gassing where it has been proved by a thorough investigation that an american guy was responsible for the death of more than 16000 people . Over 500000 people have been exposed to the gas and people are dying continuously. The responsible people are still hiding under the protection of Massa.

Please bring us justice with your pious outrage against Massan govt. If a pious person like you do it once ... May be that guy/s will be handed over to face Justice by Massa's govt and maybe -- just Maybe the dead can finally rust in peace.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:07
by Anant
Lilo,

Please don't let my posts result in cognitive dissonance. There are plenty of American war criminals who deserve their just desserts. I hold no praise for Bush and Iraq either. Regardless two wrongs don't make a right. For now, I'll stick with Ass-ad. In the near future, perhaps fortune will bring the others you refer to justice. No one has clean hands in international politics; nevertheless sometimes things get beyond the pale. I don't care for Harry Truman either. I am sure you can figure out why.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:13
by Lilo
Anant wrote:Lilo,

Please don't let my posts result in cognitive dissonance. There are plenty of American war criminals who deserve their just desserts. I hold no praise for Bush and Iraq either. Regardless two wrongs don't make a right. For now, I'll stick with Ass-ad. In the near future, perhaps fortune will bring the others you refer to justice. No one has clean hands in international politics; nevertheless sometimes things get beyond the pale. I don't care for Harry Truman either. I am sure you can figure out why.
Err
I was speaking about Warren Anderson and his cohorts still hiding in Massa land.

BTW, Did you ever hear of Bhopal gas tragedy ?
It is one of the darker chapters of Indo-Massa relations. Guess no on speaks or even thinks of it any more in yer neck of the woods.

So at least a person such as you who truly care about development of Indo-Massa "strategic partnership" should contribute your mite to bring convicted criminals to Justice.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:18
by Anant
Lilo,

I am quite aware of Union Carbide. I am also aware of Boeing's complicity in having defective altimeters in Air India's crash in the Arabian Sea. I don't think I have ever advocated that the American government or their actions were above review. Far from it. Many Americans, Indian or otherwise, share this opinion; especially regarding Bhopal. However, if you critically read Mr. Anderson's escape from justice, there is enough Indian complicity in that mess to have him be able to leave India. I have never not advocated India playing hardball, with the US, China or anyone else. Still doesn't mean that I'll support this dirtball who gasses kids who are then flailing and ceasing and dying. Perhaps Assad should sniff some methyl isocyanate. That would be too good for him.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:22
by habal
Anant wrote:Habal,

It doesn't matter what I gain or lose. It is what humanity gains. The fact that a person could gas innocent men, women and especially children is beyond the pale of civility. Get it? Tell me what part of this is obtuse to you. And no it doesn't matter one iota who did it. As the ruler of the land, it is your responsibility to see that either these heinous weapons don't exist or are amply secured--or more likely, the fact that he had to resort to something so dastardly to keep himself in power. So, yes, I will take every joy seeing him qaddafy-ducked.
You have completely lost it. Repeating a lie 100 times does not make it the truth.

btw there is clear proof Kerry, McCain in cohort with a bandar gassed Syrian children. Gaddafy's libya did not have such a high percentage of minorities like Syria has. US has also clear role in gassing women and children in Vietnam. Agent Orange ring any bells. Nuclear bomb in hiroshima. Depleted Uranium in Iraq. Women & children for whom your heart bleeds profusely killed in copious numbers. First clear your own country of war-criminals before heading abroad.

Does your war-obsessed mind have any idea what will happen to those Syrian minorities once McCain sponsored Al-Qaeda gains in Syria. Do you have any idea whatsoever. Care to read the conversation from 2 McCain terrorists on how to deal with a neutral Sunni muslim may give you some clues.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:24
by habal
Even in their jokes, these Americans talk of gassing somebody, dropping 4000 lb bombs over cities. Using missiles very casually.

It is a totally screwed up civilization, with no moral values regards dealing with any country outside western bloc.

And then they talk about protecting women & children in Syria. Creeps.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Sep 2013 09:31
by Anant
So the thesis of this room finally emerges. It's not so much that Ass-ad is a butchering, barbaric, lunatic, children killing dictator. It's that America is that much worse so Ass-ad gets a pass. Wonderful. And the Russians apparently have no blood on their hands even though Stalin killed more people than Hitler. And for the nth time, Agent Orange was used as a defoliant, and more American GI's have died from its handling and spraying than North Vietnamese troops, so please give that asinine conspiracy theory a rest. While you're at it, go look up at all of the still born cyclops fetuses born to non-white Russians where their nuclear bombs were tested or the impact of Chernobyl or initial Russian lies that it was a "minor accident."