India-US Strategic News and Discussion

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 06:37

Amber G. wrote:

There are of course many open sources where one can get more details (as they are fairly well known) but some points may be of interest, since you asked.

Jagdish Bharara (Preet and Vinit’s father) a Sikh, had an arranged marriage with a Hindu, both their families uprooted in 1947 partition.

Jagdish Bharara, was poor, hardworking and good student (first from his family to go to college - went to medical school) After marriage and kids ( Preet etc), Jagdish made what he called a difficult decision to temporarily move to England to do his medical residency. In the early 1970s, the family moved to the United States and settled in NJ. Jagdish built a thriving pediatric medical practice, his wife stayed at home.

Both sons (Preet and Vinit) went to good schools (Harvard), were very good students, rose very fast.. top to their respective fields ..as you know Vinit B's diapers business was sold to Amazon for half a billion dollars.

The father is very well respected by PB, and PB has often talked about his father in glowing terms
When he was sworn in as US Attorney PB said (often quoted) some thing to the effect about his father..: “Given the sacrifices he has made, the example he has set, and the life he has led, he will never be more proud of me than I am of him,”

Hope this helps.

Yes it does. Thanks AmberG-ji. (I love that expression. AmberG-ji - almost as good as Jeejeebhoyji

)

Let me summarize the same information in a slightly different way.

When Preet Bharara's father was young, India had very very few medical colleges and only the elite would get anywhere near medical school. In the 1950s and 1960s one had to be part of an already educated family to learn the English needed to qualify for medical school - an advantage unavailable to 98% of India's 300 million odd people in the 1950s and 60s. English was part of the elite. Of course the privileged English speaking elite of India were not necessarily rich, and it is credible Bharara's father was not rich. But he did not live in conditions of abject poverty that characterized the majority of Indians back then. And the privileged few who did manage to enter medical school did not have to pay much because all the colleges were subsidized by the Indian government.

The UK's National Health Service was being expanded in the 60s and 70s. The UK was desperate for English speaking doctors. For young medical graduates in India who could not get a post graduate seat in India, the UK was wide open. Doctors had their tickets paid for and were given free accommodation and free telephones. Bharara's father went to the UK in a golden era that ended only in the 1980s. The decIsion to go the UK was likely "difficult" for father Jagdish Bharara only in terms of leaving family behind. It was a smart move in monetary terms and vastly more easy in the 1960s and early 70s than it became in a later era. That era was a great time to be Indian, and to have a medical eduction in English. From the UK the obvious step was to go to the US, like thousands of other Indian doctors used to do and still do. In the 1970s dentists, and later doctors, became the highest earning category of professionals in the US - a fact that was featured in Time magazine and read by hundreds of starry eyed Indian medical students in an era before Indian magazines like India Today took over from Time magazine. The entrance exam to go to the US, the ECFMG was dead easy, but cold war politics ensured that Islamabad had an exam center but none in India. So Indian doctors who were abroad, such as those in the UK, wrote and passed the exam with ease.

Clearly Preet Bharara himself was born to a family that enjoyed advantages far beyond the vast majority of Indians, and that family went on to reach places that most Indians cannot even dream about. It is this wealthy elite Bharara who is now alleging that other Indians like Khobragde, who have come up from vastly inferior circumstances are slavers of some sort. Bharara would do well to ask how privileged his father was to acquire an education in English and how that privilege and the wealth that accrued from it was passed on to Bharara himself. Bharara knows exactly nothing about India. But he knows how to use his power to dominate nearly defenceless people.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Jan 2014 07:24

I am not qualified to post here, but will say this -- A. only test of character is when one is faced with a rock and a hard place. You will be surprised how quickly the spine in 99.9% becomes more pliant than rubber. B. A taste once acquired, is one impossible to give up as well.

It is impossible to know what transpired, but regular circumstances these are not. UFO investigations are more transparent. Why defend what you can not explain.

full disclosure -- No dog in this race and suffering from a deformed rigid spine, not qualified to comment here.

Back to cowering in my cave praying to my millions of gods (or should it be one he lord and savior only now) to save me from the large birds circling overhead.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Jan 2014 07:34

My request to Ulan Batori Ji and Hakeem Shiv Ji:

Now that you guys are back, please don't ever leave the forum again. You guys have been sorely missed by old followers of BRF.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 25 Jan 2014 07:47

@UlanBatori "What was he thinking?"

please tell me if I'm wrong somewhere

Here is the most probable sequence of events:
1) Sangeeta Richards goes to the US absolutely committed to get green card, will do anything to get it.
2) Gets in touch with left wing extremist NGO Safe Horizon and is guided by immigration lawyers who have done these false charge green card scam hundreds of times.
3) Safe Horizons present a highly cooked up trumped up charges to the SD officials.
4) The SD officials dumb idiots buy the story hook and sinker. You bet SR and SH did not tell them about SR’s meeting with DK demanding 10K $, demanding blue passport for immigration, etc, etc
5) Pretender Bharara too buys the story and looks at his glorious role of a rescuer of the downtrodden

Two issues are at play for #4 and #5:
A) American supremacist mindset- they are God Appointed Moral Custodians of the World of Inherently Vastly Superior Country with Superior Values; Justice Is Found Only In America, etc, etc
Subconscious prejudice against India/ Indian society shared by MATA afflicted PB and Nisha Desai

6) Collusion with US Embassy in Delhi to pull a commando operation. Feverish mindset about keeping the impending arrest of DK a total secret, thrill of potentially “evacuating” family from Delhi all lead to discontinuation of rational thinking. Adrenalin rush about carrying out the commando operation stops rational thinking about potential consequences.

7) Either Kerry did not know about the whole thing or a very twisted, very biased story was presented to him as a glorious humanitarian operation. He spent 2 minutes on it and said ok.

Here again prejudice against Indians and subconscious assumptions are the major psychological drivers- the timid Indians will be embarrassed and take it lying down. They even didn't complain about NSA snooping.."We are teaching them a lesson" mindset, etc

Cowboy Bharara probably surprised even the SD officials the way he carried out the arrest.

9) Completely unexpected wild reaction from Indians

10) Post-facto smug desire to maintain Super Power Posture- you cannot afford to be dictated by India. So defend what you have done at any cost.

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Jan 2014 08:23

Bharara is like a black slaver, doing the deeds of his WASP masters. He will whip any slave who eats an extra morsel but provide black women to rape and black men to torture to his white masters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 08:26

Cross posting from the positive news thread

habal wrote:

What is interesting to me is the fact that the women who were cavity searched (for noobs that means a finger inside the rectum and vagina) on a highway after being stopped by Texas police for speeding on the highway have "sued for an undisclosed amount"

To me it indicates that the woman have been "bought" by the system. It is OK to get your private parts violated as long as monetary compensation is paid. What amazes me is that the principle of custodial rape where a police officer searches your privates - an act that was legalized in a 5-4 vote by the US supreme court is inhumane. Getting paid later after having your bottom violated is not the point. Cavity searches without good reason need to be stopped in the US. That is what must be opposed - not the "cop out" act of getting fingered and then accepting money in compensation for having your vagina violated. The latter is simply prostitution by another name.

A finger in the anus or vagina can be very painful and can cause serious injury when done by an person with no anatomic/physiologic knowledge, and I would really like to look at medical records of people who have had to visit a doctor after a cavity search. This US law is not just barbaric, it is plain stupid. Someone needs to wake up and fight the system.

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Jan 2014 09:21

DK's case has now exposed entire Indian middle-class to this new phenomenon in USA, that of cavity searches. People of all ages are asking why is this pressing need of law enforcement to cavity search women in roadside, everyday in prisons, and at airport terminals esp when there are scanners and dogs and so many other tools at their disposal.

This has changed or has the capacity to change entirely how the US is perceived in India.

& even more ridiculous is the USA Supreme Court tamasha of having passed 'Right to Rape by Police Afsar Bill' by 5-4. By slick Orwellian media management this is also being shown up as great victory of democracy.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 25 Jan 2014 09:57

See the problem is half of the American population is either rape victim or rapist in the name of officially sanctioned rape at least once in their life time. Most of them have become so accustomed that they seem to enjoy it. And democracy is what majority wants. So you can infer that they have become racist and sadist to a large extent and cloaked it in the legal protection. This applies to MUTUs, MMTUs, and white Khans and Brown Khans and Black Khans and Khans of assorted kinds. Moreover anyone newly arriving in US or having brush with LEOs are also getting the taste of things to come once they get GCs. It is called Standard Orifice Penetration or SOP as described by Mary Mad Herf.

ps: edited to correct typos "wither" to "either" and "of" to "or"

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Jan 2014 10:12

Actually it serves many purposes. Once the human spirit is broken, then they will slowly lose the will to understand and empathize with fellow human being because no human empathized with their plight during cavity search. Secondly this will also desensitize citizens to abhorrent news from war front, so that it seems no atrocity is too severe.

That is the chief reason why Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc failed to appear significantly on American mind maps. This is sociological manipulation at it's best, and the desensitization was complete.

The pattern of enticing more immigrants also means, the new FOBs are more meek and ready to follow orders and thus a captive population for carrying out the states orders, case in point is lapdog PB & ilk, they are themselves kept in check by the state through mere threat of cavity search in prison, on roadside, in airport etc (all vetted by HON USA SUPREME COURT 5-4, no less) and as well as in readiness to carry out any perverse orders without any seeming disturbances above surface. They are also gamed in any potential dissent by showing that the rules were framed before their arrival, is effective to ensure a safe society upon their arrival, and is unquestionable. So psychologically the immigrants shall look for other scapegoats to hang their guilt on, that is what leads their fingers pointing all the way towards India, for all their ills.

The mental manipulation is complete. Wah re Chaachaaa kya system banaya ..

This beats the Mughal zabardasti system at different levels.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 25 Jan 2014 10:45

chaanakya wrote:See the problem is half of the American population is wither rape victim of rapist in the name of officially sanctioned rape at least once in their life time. Most of them have become so accustomed that they seem to enjoy it. And democracy is what majority wants. So you can infer that they have become racist and sadist to a large extent and cloaked it in the legal protection. This applies to MUTUs, MMTUs, and white Khans and Brown Khans and Black Khans and Khans of assorted kinds. Moreover anyone newly arriving in US or having brush with LEOs are also getting the taste of things to come once they get GCs. It is called Standard Orifice Penetration or SOP as described by Mary Mad Herf.

There seems to be a huge problem in amirkhan judiciary, police and prison system. Unlike Bhaarath(which also has problems in these areas), where atleast the problems are acknowledged by one & all and the need to rectify it is also accepted, in Amirkhan the problems are rarely acknowledged and infact, there is a celebration of this system.

In Bhaarath, politicians generally promise to change the system and better it. In amirkhan, the politicians generally promise to keep the system as it is or perhaps 'toughen' it. O'bomber was an exception when he promised to change things. But he seems to have let down the people who voted for him hoping for a change.

habal wrote:Actually it serves many purposes. Once the human spirit is broken, then they will slowly lose the will to understand and empathize with fellow human being because no human empathized with their plight during cavity search. Secondly this will also desensitize citizens to abhorrent news from war front, so that it seems no atrocity is too severe.

That is the chief reason why Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc failed to appear significantly on American mind maps. This is sociological manipulation at it's best, and the desensitization was complete.

The pattern of enticing more immigrants also means, the new FOBs are more meek and ready to follow orders and thus a captive population for carrying out the states orders, case in point is lapdog PB & ilk, they are themselves kept in check by the state through mere threat of cavity search in prison, on roadside, in airport etc (all vetted by HON USA SUPREME COURT 5-4, no less) and as well as in readiness to carry out any perverse orders without any seeming disturbances above surface. They are also gamed in any potential dissent by showing that the rules were framed before their arrival, is effective to ensure a safe society upon their arrival, and is unquestionable. So psychologically the immigrants shall look for other scapegoats to hang their guilt on, that is what leads their fingers pointing all the way towards India, for all their ills.

The mental manipulation is complete. Wah re Chaachaaa kya system banaya ..

This beats the Mughal zabardasti system at different levels.

Saar,
the dehumanization and desensitization seems to start with cops/soldiers. First they are subjected to all kinds of humiliation and dehumanizing techniques during training which they are supposed to bear in the name of bravery and toughness. Only those who are hardened and desensitized in such training process are selected. Then, these people are let loose on the population. Since no one sympathized with these cops/soldiers, they don't feel pity for others.

This leads to situations like Abu Gariab or Cavity search. Infact, the cops or soldiers don't even think that they are doing anything wrong.

Whenever, things like Abu Gariab or Cavity search are mentioned people think of victims. But what kind of human being would want to perpetuate things like abu gariab or cavity search(which seem to have been institutionalized)? A normal human being wouldn't be comfortable doing that. So, the first thing that is remarkable about such things is that there are people willing to perpetuate such things. How are these people created? They are created using dehumanizing techniques.

And massa has same training methods for marines and cops. And many ex-marines or soldiers become cops.

Hazing and Bullying in the Police Academy

December 16, 2013 by improvingpolice 7 Comments

hazing 2 Last week I read an article in the New York Times Magazine about police training in Atlanta. It reminded me of my days in the Marines – not my 33 years in the police.

I spent a decade on active and reserve duty as a U.S. Marine. I was an enlisted man and went through a tough 12-week boot camp in San Diego in the late 1950s.. The things I were asked to do and bear made sense given my chosen occupation: I was to be a fighting man — to seek out, engage, and destroy an enemy

When I left the Marines and set off to become a police officer, I thankfully was trained as a police officer and not a soldier. That made sense to me as I quickly understood that there was a big difference between the two.

Now back to the Times story: it was about Jacob Mach’s journey to America from the Sudan. He was one of the 4,000 “Lost Boys” of the Sudan. After coming to America 12 years ago, he now was training to become an Atlanta police officer.

You can see the full video story HERE. hazing

What I saw in this documentary was a questionable learning environment that both emotionally and physically stressed its students.

During my years as a police leader, I tried to teach other police departments the best way to go about preparing young men and women to become police officers. This was not one of them.

I stress in my book that police officers need to be college educated, well-trained, controlled in their use of force, honest, and respectful. The following is a story about one of my experiences teaching leadership and improvement methods to a large urban police department in the West:

“As I was setting up my classroom at their training academy, I looked out the window and observed a formation of their new police recruits. I decided to go outside and get a closer look. The recruits were standing in three ranks—it was an inspection, a situation I could easily relate to from my days as a Marine.

“Suddenly, the training instructors started yelling at the new officers. Some were ordered to do push-ups by way of the familiar military command: ‘Drop and give me ten.’ In addition, I heard the instructors calling the young officers ‘assholes.’ I returned to the classroom in time to greet the chief and his command staff. I introduced myself and the curriculum for the next three days, then asked, ‘Are your officers permitted to call citizens names?’ They seem shocked, ‘We have rules against doing that. Why do you ask?’

“’Well,’ I replied, ‘I was watching your new officers outside this window and observed your trainers calling them very derogatory names. You know, it really doesn’t matter if you have rules against such conduct because when their teachers call them names, they will think that it’s okay for them to do the same to citizens. And if you ever try to discipline them, their defense will simply be, ‘That’s what the department taught me.’”

“I recently learned that the department never did change. Their academy remains stress-based, military, and intimidating. I don’t know if their training officers ever stopped calling recruit officers names. But one thing I do know, is that if they don’t stop, I predict they will continue to have problems with officers disrespecting citizens. How could they expect any different kind of an outcome?…

“Half of our nation’s police academies train in an atmosphere police trainers themselves identify as stress-based; that is, intimidating, even bullying. This makes half of American police academies more like military boot camps or correctional facilities than places in which college-educated young men and women are prepared to be professional police practitioners…

“Today, many police departments still continue to run their training academies like boot camps. These departments have training officers who look and act like Marine Corps drill instructors. They even wear the familiar Smoky Bear hats of a Marine drill instructor. As I became more acquainted with police work, I couldn’t understand why police were using the same training model I had been subjected to as a Marine. There was no similarity whatsoever between being a Marine infantryman and a police officer—the two job functions were as different as night and day.

I found this documentary about police training in Atlanta to be very unsettling. I challenge the basic assumptions about the efficacy of this model. First of all, is it necessary to bully and abuse police recruits in order to teach them the skills necessary to be an effective police officer today? Do people learn better under encouragement than stress? I think we all know the answer.

Secondly, if the stress-based, boot camp style is a necessary part of police work, why aren’t the highly-valued physical fitness requirements required of all police officers during their careers, not just at the beginning? (In fact, the only skill that continues to be evaluated by most police departments is periodic firearms, and not physical fitness, qualification standards.)

The best argument against this method of teaching occurs in the documentary itself. It was when Mach was having trouble on the shooting range and we see two styles of teaching used on him: one by an aggressive and demeaning male instructor and the other by a nurturing female instructor. Which one was effective in helping Mach qualify that day? Of course, the instructor who acted in a helping and humane manner.

This kind of debasing treatment in one way or another continues as the primary training protocol in at least half of our nation’s police training academies. It must stop.

At the end of the documentary, Mach was dismissed from the academy. Thankfully, he found a job as an Atlanta city Code Enforcement Officer. Watching him work effectively in this new job tells me that given another kind of training environment he would be a successful police officer.

The other thing that troubles me is that while we, as a nation, are working to eliminate hazing and bullying in our nation’s schools and workplaces, we need to take a better look at how our recruit police officers are treated. Hazing and bullying does not teach anyone anything except how to haze and bully. And they are not the kind of things we want our nation’s police to know let alone be subjected to.

Link

So, the cops are trained in the same model as marines. What is a marine training?

Movies like Full Metal Jacket are based on marine boot camps.

---

----
Movies like A Few Good Men are based on institutional hazing culture.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 25 Jan 2014 11:07

That should go to USAPos thread as well.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 25 Jan 2014 11:12

US, India start discussions on diplomatic immunity

India and the US are holding preliminary discussions to resolve their differing interpretations of diplomatic immunity as they look to mend ties damaged by the row over American treatment of an Indian diplomat who was arrested and strip-searched in New York, India's ambassador said.

Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, India's new envoy in Washington, said Friday his priority is to raise the "morale" of a relationship that remains fundamentally good despite the spat over Devyani Khobragade, who was expelled from the US this month after she was indicted on accusations of exploiting her housekeeper.

"As you would say in the markets, the fundamentals are good, it's the sentiment that needs improving," Jaishankar told The Associated Press in an interview.

The US and India, the world's largest democracies, have forged closer economic and defense ties in the past decade, but relations took a tumble because of Indian outrage over the treatment of Khobragade, who was the nation's deputy consul general in New York. She was strip-searched after her Dec. 13 arrest, which US Marshals say is common practice for a suspect taken into custody, but was viewed in India as unnecessarily humiliating.

India unleashed a steady stream of retaliatory measures (??) against US diplomats, including restrictions at the American Center in New Delhi and revoking new ID cards for some diplomats. Key to the dispute was Washington and Delhi's differing interpretations of what type of immunity was due to Khobragade. U.S. officials argued that as a consular official, she was immune from prosecution from acts performed in the exercise of consular functions, and not full diplomatic immunity.

Jaishankar said while that's the rule for foreign diplomats in the US, he questioned whether Washington expects its diplomats abroad to be treated in kind. He said India has issued new identity cards for US consular officials to specify that their diplomatic immunity does not cover "serious crimes" - referred to as "felonies" in the US

"There is an issue of what does the US expect abroad and what does the US give at home. I think there's a reconciliation there that needs to be done," the ambassador said. "What fairness would dictate is we would expect and give what you (the US) expect and give."

He said India is starting to work through the issue with the State Department, and US Secretary of State John Kerry and his Indian counterpart Salman Khurshid discussed it when they met Wednesday on the sidelines of a conference on Syria in Switzerland - their first face-to-face since the imbroglio over Khobragade.

Striking the positive tone set in the past two weeks since Khobragade returned home, Jaishankar said he was looking to advance a bilateral relationship that has grown stronger in the past 10 to 15 years. Two-way trade has grown to $100 billion.

"It's big economically, there's a high degree of political comfort," he said, noting the importance of more than 5 million Indian-Americans in helping to foster it.

But Jaishankar acknowledged that commercial relations have not been "plain sailing."

Big US companies have concerns over what they claim are unpredictable and unfair tax demands; pharmaceutical companies complain over what they view as unfair competition from manufacturers of generic drugs; foreign investors, such as Wal-Mart, have grumbled over local content requirements as they look to break into the untapped Indian market.

Jaishankar said India has responded to pressures to remain business-friendly, and considers "corrections" where they are needed. But he noted that India has its own concerns, including over whether U.S. immigration reform proposals - currently mired in Congress - that he said could hurt the competitiveness of Indian service industries in the U.S. whose business is worth $40 billion.

"It's an industry which actually keep American business competitive," he said. "We help the American economy function 24-7."

Growing military cooperation and some $9 billion in US defense sales to India in the past decade also reflect a further deepening of the relationship. Delhi, however, has been careful not to align too closely to Washington in international affairs, although it's been strongly supportive of the reconstruction of a post-Taliban Afghanistan through its development aid.

Jaishankar said India wants to see peace and stability, but he would not be drawn on whether Afghan President Hamid Karzai should sign a security agreement with Washington to allow some U.S. forces to stay past the end of the NATO mission in the country, scheduled for this year. Karzai has demurred so far.

Afghanistan has long been an area of strategic rivalry between India and its historic enemy Pakistan, whose relations remain fragile, snared on Indian concerns that Pakistan is a base for Islamic militants that attack India.

Jaishankar said there's a "serious desire" among Indians to have a lasting settlement with Pakistan, and he kept an open mind about the fledgling efforts at rapprochement by Pakistan's government - the latest in decades of peace efforts that he said have mostly floundered because of terrorism coming from Pakistan.

Pakistan's Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif says Washington could help mediate between the South Asian nuclear rivals, but the Indian envoy saw little chance of that.

He said if people who are so culturally similar can't talk to each other, "what would someone far away do? What role could they conceivably have?"

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Jan 2014 11:42

>>the dehumanization and desensitization seems to start with cops/soldiers.

why not think of it as two streams in parallel. One for society and one for soldiers/cops. Also desensitized cops/soldiers will do their masters bidding unquestioningly. That is the main reason for this institutional hazing, they are being trained to be immune to normal human sensitivities. They are being trained to take orders without questions, irrespective of their appropriateness.

This will then bring you to the wider question of the 'intent of the state' or in this case the 'intent of the State Dept' or it's political handlers and peers. The wider decision making bodies in USA and it's politico-business elites. You will need to then look at the intent of the top management who formulate various goals and objectives for the lower rung to follow.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jan 2014 12:11

shiv wrote:Cross posting from the positive news thread

What is interesting to me is the fact that the women who were cavity searched (for noobs that means a finger inside the rectum and vagina) on a highway after being stopped by Texas police for speeding on the highway have [b]"sued for an undisclosed amount"
[/b] Snip

Or maybe somebody has to smell this rose.

The money to be shared by cavitor and cavities?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Jan 2014 13:07

johneeG wrote:

How the hell are people with specs being taken in as soldiers ??? Only in amrikah, they will be rejected outrightly in IA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 13:59

rajanb wrote:
shiv wrote:Cross posting from the positive news thread

What is interesting to me is the fact that the women who were cavity searched (for noobs that means a finger inside the rectum and vagina) on a highway after being stopped by Texas police for speeding on the highway have [b]"sued for an undisclosed amount"
[/b] Snip
Or maybe somebody has to smell this rose.

The money to be shared by cavitor and cavities?

Valid observation

The cavity appeared too casual and comfortable with the cavitor

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 14:08

habal wrote:Actually it serves many purposes. Once the human spirit is broken, then they will slowly lose the will to understand and empathize with fellow human being because no human empathized with their plight during cavity search. Secondly this will also desensitize citizens to abhorrent news from war front, so that it seems no atrocity is too severe.

Great observation. The de-sensitization process that was applied to the US army is being applied to the police. That is why they act like they hate the person they are arresting.

The corollary is also openly visible to those who look. A visible percentage of the population of law abiding citizens of the US are not only dead scared of the law enforcement apparatus (which is justifiable and good) they are actually dhimmis in that they cheer and boast that "cavity searches" and other brutal methods "are normal and good" and that outsidees who do not enjoy the freedom, prosperity and greatness of the US need to learn about it - "suck it up" as it were.The Americans are suffering from Stockholm syndrome where they are unable to call out US police brutality for what it is - but like brainwashed citizens, actually mock and lampoon outsiders who react with horror at the methods used by US police departments.

Liberty and freedom of the type that was palpable in the US of the 1960s and even 70s is gone. The older people are not saying much and the youngsters don't even know and genuinely believe that what they have is real freedom. This is a pathetic way to go.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2014 14:45

Welcome back, doc. Food for thought in your post!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Jan 2014 14:50

This is what I was wondering as I was reading the latest Forsyth novel (The Kill List). The question never appears to have occurred:

Why is it right to kill someone simply because he preaches "hate"?

The pat answer would be that only US citizens have the Constitutional Rights of the First Amendment. But then they have "taken out" a few USCs as well for "preaching hate", without any trial. By Presidential approval.

The supposed basis is that some native-born, 400% genuine, corn-fed idiots, generally British or American, DOWNLOADED (as opposed to having it forcibly pumped into their cranial cavities) some "hate" lecture off the web, and then went out and committed a crime. Will this be sufficient, then, to order the execution (not just file a lawsuit, note) of the leaders of the KKK, T-Party, newspaper columnists, TV commentators, etc etc, all of whom can be accused of having said something that a listener interpreted as an OK to commit violence?

I mean, if there is an Intel finding (oh! like Sad-dam's WMD?) that the guy is directly responsible for plotting and executing violent crimes, and cannot be reached to capture and bring to trial, that is one thing. But starting from that definition of "terrorist" and going through the gamut of extraditions, and then "renditions", we now appear to have reached a stage where it is perfectly fine to "execute" someone for stating their views.

I believe this is utterly illegal and destructive to free democracy. Far more than any amount of terrorist attacks. Now we don't need to even trash the uncomfortable Presumption of Innocence: we don't like what someone says, OK, send a Predator. Or a human version thereof. It's OK!

Trouble is, it is, as an election bumper sticker said:

so much easier than thinking

OK, back to reading the novel. Now they have only spent $150B, and counting, on preparing to kill this one guy. When a simple IP shutdown would have been so much more effective. I mean, if Abdul bin Cleveland can find and download a lecture by Prof. XYZ, then so can the EnnEssAy etc, hain? Why can't they track and shut down the IP where the lecture is found, as fast as it is set up, and even faster than Google search finds it? Isn't that sooo much cheaper and more effective than going out to kill the guy? But I am so thankful they don't do that, or what would I read?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Jan 2014 16:17

US claims on American Embassy School in New Delhi are wrong {US SD and its spokesperson were lying}

The world’s sole superpower had started a diplomatic spat with India -- its self-professed “natural ally”, a “strategic partner” and America’s “Asia pivot” -- on 12 December with the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade on many criminal charges, including visa fraud, on a moral high ground.

But the Americans themselves are guilty of subterfuge. On 17 January, State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki told reporters in Washington that the American Embassy School (AES) in New Delhi, under a cloud for a number of alleged visa and taxation frauds, is not run by the US embassy. "It (American Embassy School) is not run by the embassy. Only about a third of the students there are American. We are in discussion with the government of India regarding issues they have raised concerning the school," she was quoted as saying.

Thus the State Department was not only distancing itself from the wrongdoings of AES but also was seen as washing its hands off an important American entity in New Delhi at a time when the entity needed Washington’s support the most.

However, the State Department’s lame argument does not cut much ice if you see the attached document. {find link at the bottom of this post}

Article III of this document makes it clear that the US ambassador in New Delhi enjoys supervisory powers over the school. In fact, it clearly states that the US envoy in New Delhi is responsible for the management of the school.

Of particular relevance is clause 2 (d) of Article III which states as follows: “The Ambassador will appoint to the Board two representatives from the American Embassy (who need not be members of the Association) who shall serve at his/her pleasure; one such representative shall normally be the Embassy's Counselor for Administrative Affairs who shall concern himself primarily with financial and budgetary matters.”

The operative words in this clause are” who shall serve at his/her pleasure”, which clearly refer to the role of the US ambassador in New Delhi in running AES.

Further, Article VI (2) says thus: “The Board, subject to approval of the Ambassador, may establish, and from time to time amend, By-Laws of the Association consistent with this Charter.”

This conclusively proves that the US ambassador in New Delhi enjoys powers to make or amend by-laws from time to time in the running of the AES.

The Indian Ministry of External Affairs is obviously aware of the American subterfuge and the blatantly wrong statement of the senior State Department official. This gives rise to the following questions:

1. Has the MEA confronted the State Department or the US embassy in New Delhi with the facts? If no, why not? And if yes, what is the American response?

2 The Indian deadline for the US embassy to furnish information about AES, salaries paid to the staff and taxes paid and deposited by them expired a month ago. Has the MEA extended the deadline?

3 When is the US embassy in New Delhi going to furnish all the information required by Indian law?

4 Is it not a fact that the AES has been violating many Indian laws with impunity since 1974? If so, the details thereof?

This writer is given to understand that the AES case is currently under microscopic scrutiny by the Central Board of Direct Taxes (CBDT). Sources familiar with the case say that the CBDT investigation has made much progress.

But the vital questions are whether the Indian finance ministry will have the gall to push the envelope and take the AES case to its logical conclusion or whether the Indians have lost the appetite to take it any further now that Devyani Khobragade is back in India, though the criminal cases against her stay alive?

The UPA government will do well to provide some clarity to these questions.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/202111117/Ame ... ol-Charter

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 25 Jan 2014 17:08

habal wrote:Actually it serves many purposes. Once the human spirit is broken, then they will slowly lose the will to understand and empathize with fellow human being because no human empathized with their plight during cavity search. Secondly this will also desensitize citizens to abhorrent news from war front, so that it seems no atrocity is too severe.

That is the chief reason why Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc failed to appear significantly on American mind maps. This is sociological manipulation at it's best, and the desensitization was complete.

The pattern of enticing more immigrants also means, the new FOBs are more meek and ready to follow orders and thus a captive population for carrying out the states orders, case in point is lapdog PB & ilk, they are themselves kept in check by the state through mere threat of cavity search in prison, on roadside, in airport etc (all vetted by HON USA SUPREME COURT 5-4, no less) and as well as in readiness to carry out any perverse orders without any seeming disturbances above surface. They are also gamed in any potential dissent by showing that the rules were framed before their arrival, is effective to ensure a safe society upon their arrival, and is unquestionable. So psychologically the immigrants shall look for other scapegoats to hang their guilt on, that is what leads their fingers pointing all the way towards India, for all their ills.

The mental manipulation is complete. Wah re Chaachaaa kya system banaya ..

This beats the Mughal zabardasti system at different levels.

Good pisko analysis habal garu.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 25 Jan 2014 17:17

UlanBatori wrote:That's what I am saying too, AmberG. What was he thinking? WAS he thinking? "Out of control" esp as re-election looks. Sharks sensing blood in the water don't "think". See the Duke case. That guy also thought he was going to ride on "going after the Mafia" there too, but he should have gone after the real Mafia, not after a big university sports team filled with "All-American" bacche against a (IIRC) poor black unwed/divorced mother trying to make a living as a striptease worker. It was no contest. What was the truth? We will never know. But prosecutors should not allow their Power to blind them to the constitutional presumption of innocence. Of course here there is no danger for PB: The GOI is already showing as much spine as a wet noodle. No danger of devastating counter-lawsuits against NYC and the Feds.

To add to the list of gross overreach by US Attorneys:

The Aaron Swartz matter

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Jan 2014 18:16

I think this news item being here is justified because American companies are involved and there is a reference to how such policy would influence India.

South African PR leak exposes how big pharma subverts govt policy

NEW DELHI: Pharmaceutical industry's machinations to interfere in a country's policymaking to protect their interests have been exposed yet again, this time in South Africa.

The leaked plans of a public relations firm hired by the American and South African pharmaceutical multinational companies revealed how pharma planned to launch a campaign to discredit and subvert the proposed reform of South Africa's patent laws.

The leaked nine-page document of the PR firm, Public Affairs Engagement, titled, Campaign to Prevent Damage to Innovation from the Proposed Draft National IP Policy in South Africa, was prepared for Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) and the Innovative Pharmaceuticals Association of South Africa (IPASA). It expressed the fear that if the reforms were adopted, South Africa would become less friendly to so-called "innovator companies" and that this "may also provide the model for other developing nations, inside and outside Africa, including such important aspiring economies such as India and Brazil."

It went on to say that South Africa was ground zero for the debate on strong intellectual property (IP) law and that "if the battle is lost here the effects will resonate". It recommended that the most effective focus of the campaign against the reforms in IP law ought to be on how important strong IP laws were to the country's economy as investments would stop without strong IP and new treatments would not be available to patients. It also stated how it had to be projected that patent protections were not the reason for poor healthcare in the country, but substandard public health policy, and inadequate delivery system and poverty.

It clearly stated that the "immediate mission" was "to delay the finalization of the IP policy by the cabinet" and its further passage through parliament till after the elections as "delay would provide time to develop a third stage of the campaign" to develop a strong IP policy.

The document elaborates a strategy which would include mobilizing voices "inside and outside South Africa to send the message that the proposed IP reforms would threaten continued investment and thus economic and social wellbeing". "The mobilization will occur through an energetic campaign which will feel like a political campaign", it adds. And the campaign message would be that South Africa ought not to rush into IP reforms as that could damage its interests and give advantage to its competitors like Nigeria and hence it ought to slow down and devise a better policy.

The pharma industry's got nervous when the department of trade and industry published a draft framework for a new policy on intellectual property (IP), including patents over life-saving drugs in September last year. The reforms included many of the flexibilities that the WTO allows its members including provisions for compulsory licensing, a license which allows a company to produce a patented products by paying royalty to the patent-owning company, even if the owner company has not given permission to allow such copying of its patented product. Such flexibilities had earlier been missing in the South African patent law. Pharma feared that the proposed new IP policy could become law before South African election expected to be held in April-July 2014.

The document concluded by stating that it had to be communicated that the world cared that South Africa was going to take a wrong turn with its IP policy, and on a slightly more menacing note added that by cared "we mean both expresses compassionate concern and will take action by reducing investment". It stated further that if the IP draft approach prevailed in South Africa, other developing countries could be expected to follow which is why the contest in South Africa "was so critical" and why a robust campaign was absolutely necessary.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Jan 2014 18:42

Barf time

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Jan 2014 19:13

Please to read the first several pages at least:
https://ohiostatepress.org/Books/Comple ... ire/10.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 19:39

A_Gupta wrote:Please to read the first several pages at least:
https://ohiostatepress.org/Books/Comple ... ire/10.pdf

Brilliant. Many thanks

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 25 Jan 2014 19:44

A_Gupta wrote:Please to read the first several pages at least:
https://ohiostatepress.org/Books/Comple ... ire/10.pdf

Wow ! This explains many things

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 25 Jan 2014 20:23

A_Gupta wrote:Please to read the first several pages at least:
https://ohiostatepress.org/Books/Comple ... ire/10.pdf

Such racist stereotype and prejudice against Indians played a huge role in the diplomat fiasco.
The "100% American"s like PB beat the whites in their prejudice.

All said and done, this incident is a huge blessing in disguise. The Indian mind has been alerted to future potential backstabbing from US. Defense deals and purchases should be made with extreme caution.

Shaking hands with our Foreign Secretary while simultaneously getting iron shackles and DNA swabs ready for our diplomat should end any speculation whether Americans can be trusted by Indians. The answer is a resounding no. This is not an emotional reaction but the hard cold reality.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 25 Jan 2014 21:13

Shaking hands with our Foreign Secretary while simultaneously getting

Reminds me of a statement i read from actor Tom Cruise. He said this teenager rushed up to him asking if he could shake his hand, and he allowed him to do so, pleased at the enthusiasm of the young fan. As he walked away he heard the teenager comment to his buddy:

That's as close as I am ever going to get to Halley Berry's a**

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 21:22

I have been assured time and again that the US is a law abiding nation and that indians such as myself, accustomed as I must be to lax laws needs to suck up the fact that the US is so law abiding.

I seek clarification in this regard.

There appears to be such a thing as the "Bill of Rights". Does this have any relevance in the US? I ask because there appears to be such a thing called the "Fourth Amendment" My Indian American friends keep talking mysterious words like First and second amendment and keep telling me how good these things are compared to the dung heap I have chosen to live in (that they know all about, having escaped from it)

But the Fourth Amendment says this under 'search and seizure'

In criminal law, the phrase that describes law enforcement's gathering of evidence of a crime. Under the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, any search of a person or his premises (including a vehicle), and any seizure of tangible evidence, must be reasonable. Normally, law enforcement must obtain a search warrant from a judge, specifying where and whom they may search, and what they may seize, though in emergency circumstances, they may dispense with the warrant requirement.

There is alo a thing called "Unreasonable Search and seizure"

A search and seizure by a law enforcement officer without a search warrant and without probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime is present. Such a search or seizure is unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment (applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment), and evidence obtained from the unlawful search may not be introduced in court.

Has anyone asked what emergency circumstances cause the requirement for a search warrant to be dispensed with and a cavity search conducted say in a case of overspeeding on the highway? Or are US courts just like the corrupt Indian courts that Rahul Mehta used to go on and on about?

Is anyone aware of the details of why cavity searches have become routine? Or is a population of Americans just accepting that as something that happens to "other people" who get in the way of the law enforcement agencies and they "must not get arrested" - as someone suggested on this forum as friendly advice.

i can't say why but when I read these things it appears to me that the US has, just like India, a bunch of elite people who have enough power and influence to escape all these brutal police acts. There are surely people for whom the US police will do the American equivalent of "salaam saab" and leave them alone. The rest of the people are fair game. It is anther matter that I suspect that honest, hardworking immigrants from India probably classify as "rest of the people" for whom all the indignities are fine and no "salaam"

If my assumption of the presence of an American social elite out of whose hands the US police must eat, who would they be? Why do I think that the fairness of law enforcement in the US has simply be hyped out of all proportion to reality by a web of false pride, intimidation and disinformation?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 25 Jan 2014 21:27

A_Gupta: interesting!! thanks.

I plodded through a book 'Gandhi and Churchill" a while back by a historian at Smithsonian. Many of the aspects in the above article are found in the book. For example, I was astonished at this description of Tope, obviously taken from British sources of the time rather than a broader view. Now it becomes clear that he most likley did not have feel the need since he has imbibed the view as outlined in the article.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jan 2014 21:29

^^^^
An example of Salaam Saheb, was no one acted the Cavitor in the case of Justin Beiber who was arrested for overspeeding recently.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Jan 2014 21:35

shiv wrote:I have been assured time and again that the US is a law abiding nation and that indians such as myself, accustomed as I must be to lax laws needs to suck up the fact that the US is so law abiding.

I seek clarification in this regard.

Shiv, someone had posted this link earlier in the thread, some weeks before you reappeared.
It is worth reading. It does not by itself contain a full answer for your questions. This will need to be added to other things.

http://bostonreview.net/us/seth-abramso ... al-justice

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 21:36

viv wrote:A_Gupta: interesting!! thanks.

I plodded through a book 'Gandhi and Churchill" a while back by a historian at Smithsonian. Many of the aspects in the above article are found in the book. For example, I was astonished at this description of Tope, obviously taken from British sources of the time rather than a broader view. Now it becomes clear that he most likley did not have feel the need since he has imbibed the view as outlined in the article.

What is fascinating about the article is that it describes how American entities first stereotype women and then slot countries such as India into that effeminate stereotype and then Indian men are judged to be effeminate because of their effeminate nation.

The act of attacking first and thinking later, as done by Pakistanis and the US seem to be part of this "We are men" "national self image"

saip · Post by **saip** » 25 Jan 2014 21:37

Justin's crime was way more egregious than DK's. He was under the influence of bunch of drugs and alcohol and was speeding on a public road and he could have killed a few innocents. Besides that being a Canadian definitely a flight risk. Inspite of all that his bail was a princely some $2500. And when the thing comes up for trial he will most probably let off with community service and a few months of probation.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 25 Jan 2014 21:38

shiv wrote:I have been assured time and again that the US is a law abiding nation and that indians such as myself, accustomed as I must be to lax laws needs to suck up the fact that the US is so law abiding.

I seek clarification in this regard.

There appears to be such a thing as the "Bill of Rights". Does this have any relevance in the US? I ask because there appears to be such a thing called the "Fourth Amendment" My Indian American friends keep talking mysterious words like First and second amendment and keep telling me how good these things are compared to the dung heap I have chosen to live in (that they know all about, having escaped from it)

But the Fourth Amendment says this under 'search and seizure'
In criminal law, the phrase that describes law enforcement's gathering of evidence of a crime. Under the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, any search of a person or his premises (including a vehicle), and any seizure of tangible evidence, must be reasonable. Normally, law enforcement must obtain a search warrant from a judge, specifying where and whom they may search, and what they may seize, though in emergency circumstances, they may dispense with the warrant requirement.
There is alo a thing called "Unreasonable Search and seizure"
A search and seizure by a law enforcement officer without a search warrant and without probable cause to believe that evidence of a crime is present. Such a search or seizure is unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment (applied to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment), and evidence obtained from the unlawful search may not be introduced in court.
Has anyone asked what emergency circumstances cause the requirement for a search warrant to be dispensed with and a cavity search conducted say in a case of overspeeding on the highway? Or are US courts just like the corrupt Indian courts that Rahul Mehta used to go on and on about?

Is anyone aware of the details of why cavity searches have become routine? Or is a population of Americans just accepting that as something that happens to "other people" who get in the way of the law enforcement agencies and they "must not get arrested" - as someone suggested on this forum as friendly advice.

i can't say why but when I read these things it appears to me that the US has, just like India, a bunch of elite people who have enough power and influence to escape all these brutal police acts. There are surely people for whom the US police will do the American equivalent of "salaam saab" and leave them alone. The rest of the people are fair game. It is anther matter that I suspect that honest, hardworking immigrants from India probably classify as "rest of the people" for whom all the indignities are fine and no "salaam"

If my assumption of the presence of an American social elite out of whose hands the US police must eat, who would they be? Why do I think that the fairness of law enforcement in the US has simply be hyped out of all proportion to reality by a web of false pride, intimidation and disinformation?

http://www.policestateusa.com/

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 25 Jan 2014 21:42

These cavity searches might increase chances of getting AIDS or other chi chi diseases since same finger is inserted in many cavities without following due medical procedure . Since black population is more targeted by LEOs for cavity searches could it be a factor in high incidence of HIV infection?

http://aids.gov/hiv-aids-basics/hiv-aid ... index.html

> More than 1.1 million people in the United States are living with HIV infection, and almost 1 in 6 (15.8%) are unaware of their infection.
> Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSMa), particularly young black/African American MSM, are most seriously affected by HIV.
> By race, blacks/African Americans face the most severe burden of HIV.

CDC estimates that 1,144,500 persons aged 13 years and older are living with HIV infection, including 180,900 (15.8%) who are unaware of their infection1. Over the past decade, the number of people living with HIV has increased, while the annual number of new HIV infections has remained relatively stable. Still, the pace of new infections continues at far too high a level— particularly among certain groups.

HIV Incidence (new infections): The estimated incidence of HIV has remained stable overall in recent years, at about 50,000 new HIV infections per year2. Within the overall estimates, however, some groups are affected more than others. MSM continue to bear the greatest burden of HIV infection, and among races/ethnicities, African Americans continue to be disproportionately affected.

And the revealing chart

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 25 Jan 2014 21:55

We can discuss these things as much as we want. Mr Brahma Chellaney correctly calls it the "fury of the meek".

It will be a bitter disappointment if the GOI surrenders and restores diplomatic immunity on a NON-reciprocal basis. The Indian diplomats serving in all the Indian consulates in the US should have full diplomatic immunity if US diplomats need their immunity restored.

Also unpaid taxes with hefty penalties must be recovered from the AES.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2014 21:59

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:I have been assured time and again that the US is a law abiding nation and that indians such as myself, accustomed as I must be to lax laws needs to suck up the fact that the US is so law abiding.

I seek clarification in this regard.
Shiv, someone had posted this link earlier in the thread, some weeks before you reappeared.
It is worth reading. It does not by itself contain a full answer for your questions. This will need to be added to other things.

http://bostonreview.net/us/seth-abramso ... al-justice

Good link. Worth preserving

The last two points stand out regarding my questions. I will be biased and post only the relevant bits and not the whole, and face the risk of saying that I have quoted selectively

...As a result many, if not most, police reports—the documents officers testify from in court proceedings—are inaccurate. Officers worried about offenders being acquitted will, with some frequency, perjure themselves in court.

and very relevant - the salaam saab/caste system factor

If middle- and upper-class American communities were policed in the same manner working-class and working-poor communities are—that is, if standard operating procedures, applicable criminal codes, and the U.S. Constitution were applied equally, at both the arrest and prosecution stages, against citizens of all socioeconomic classes—a substantial percentage of our nation’s criminal statutes would soon be appealed, repealed, or dramatically amended.

As a generally attractive and wealthy nation the US attracts immigrants and then offers them T and U visas to people in other nations (eg India) who are treated in India, exactly the same way as the US justice system treats its own poor communties. It IS hypocrisy.

It is important for Indians to understand exactly what they get when they go to the US. For the vast majority who go educated and join middle or upper class communities, the experience makes them MUTU. India does not have too many labour class immigrants to tell stories of what happens there so the stories one gets to hear in India are the happy stories of a glorious nation. But for the elite in India life is glorious too. Just as much as life can be screwed up for the poor and illiterate in America.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 25 Jan 2014 22:09

feminizing the "other" is nothing new in all the cultures and nations that rose from the Roman roots.
USA is merely following the old way of all European imperialists.

I don't want to bring in Gandhi here, as that will be OT, but Gandhi himself is a product of strong influences from the Abrahamic Jesus concept. at least Jesus still displays some "militant" (real or imagined) behavior once in a while. Gandhi's true long term disaster inflicted on Indians is complete rejection of all militant ethos in fighting tyrants.

just as we need to throw out the deracination of colonialism, we will also need to throw out the deracination inflicted by Gandhi.