Indo-UK: News & Discussion

John_H · Post by **John_H** » 20 May 2009 17:51

Immigration to Britain stalls as foreign workers flee recession

The number of foreign-born workers leaving Britain rose by nearly 30% as the economic recession started to bite last year, according to statistics published today.

The latest official figures confirm that immigration to Britain has stalled, with the number of Polish and other east European migrants registering to work in Britain falling by 50% in January to March this year compared with the same period in 2008.

The number of Polish and other east European workers going home to live doubled in the 12 months to September 2008 as the British economy began to contract.

Overall, estimates from the international passenger survey published today show that net migration to Britain – the number coming to stay for more than a year minus those who are relocating abroad – has fallen from 207,000 to 147,000 over the 12 months to September 2008, compared with the previous year.

The figures from Asia are not published.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 May 2009 12:57

No suitable thread for this item.This is going to complicate the UK's fight against islamist terror,from which it is in grave danger fom homegrown terrorists ,most with Pak backgrounds.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 88618.html

Exclusive: How MI5 blackmails British Muslims

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 21 May 2009 19:21

Phillip Boss
I have no sympathy for British or Americans from that perspective. They are reaping what they sowed. All these years, Brits, Americans have been staunch supporters of Pakis. If you raise cobras, play with cobras there will come a day when cobra will bite. I hope more Brits of Paki descent give Brits sleepless days and nights in londonistan.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 May 2009 09:50

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... ement.html

Gurkhas are "coming home" after famous victory on settlement

For the record-Britain can indeed show certain admirable values and good sense.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 24 May 2009 01:54

British Socialist Idealism and Pakistan's Road to Ruin

There were many weaknesses in the British withdrawal, including the absurd idea of two Pakistans separated by India. Pakistan was an idea supported by Muslim leaders going back to the 19th Century, but the creation of a modern country based solely on religion had yet to be tested.

In a further irony, Britain's ill-planned withdrawal from India in a frenzy of liberal idealism had no effect in Britain, beyond opening the door to floods of poor immigrants from Pakistan, immigrants who have vastly complicated Britain's response to terrorism.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 30 May 2009 16:10

UK: IIT-IIM topper recounts trauma

Shirish Johri tells about the brutal racial attack he was subjected to in UK.

Hmmm.

Once the ball gets rolling, lots more cupboard-skeletons come tumbling out onlee.

Good, good. Enough of this silent sufferer nonsense. Put these haughty phoren univs and nations on notice that their racism smells and cannot be hidden by phoren media spin anymore. Especially not when desi students are paying customers in their lands, not welfare moochers and dole-addicts.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 31 May 2009 08:25

Delhi stunned: UK & China stall move to blacklist Masood Azhar

...
What has stunned India is the UK’s position because the Jaish as an outfit is already banned by the UN and so it is only logical for Azhar to be put on that list. It’s learnt that London has asked for “fresh evidence” and “more details” while placing the request on a procedural hold. China has taken a similar position.
...

China, I can understand. But UK?? And people wonder why many say that the poodedum and the islamists deserve each other!!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 31 May 2009 08:37

“fresh evidence” and “more details”

Scared $hitless or incompetant MI6.
Either way UKStan is screwed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 May 2009 09:53

RaviBg posted:

Delhi stunned: UK & China stall move to blacklist Masood Azhar

...
What has stunned India is the UK’s position because the Jaish as an outfit is already banned by the UN and so it is only logical for Azhar to be put on that list. It’s learnt that London has asked for “fresh evidence” and “more details” while placing the request on a procedural hold. China has taken a similar position.
...
China, I can understand. But UK?? And people wonder why many say that the poodedum and the islamists deserve each other!!

Anyone want to analyse why the UK wants to delist Azhar?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 May 2009 18:15

X-Posting from TIRP Thread

raghunath wrote:Delhi stunned:UK and China stall move to blacklist Masood Azhar

This is indeed good news. It is high time New Delhi learns that power and justice comes to the strong and not to the right and just. This UK stalling would go a long way to cut modern India's umbilical cord to UK, and allow us to emerge as a power which seeks its validity, its justification, its values somewhere else, within us.

David Mulli-in-Bund has done India a great service, and we should be greatly indebted to this man, who could single-handedly destroy all the illusions in the minds of our Oxbridgers.

It is time to make David Mulli-in-Bund and Gordon Brown persona non-grata in India.

Coming next at the next Diwali fest near you - the Mulli-in-Bund Game. Now win fantastic prizes! Shove a mulli in the backside of the dummy of Honorable Foreign Secretary David Mulli-in-Bund! The deeper you shove, the more prizes you get.

This guy should lose his seat in the next General Elections in UK next year in May 2010.

David Milliband's Constituency

Perhaps the Indian Community in UK could start to pour some money into the election coffers of his opponents.

http://southshieldsconservatives.co.uk/

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 02 Jun 2009 02:07

The vultures circle Brown Ill fight vows PM backbenchers plan rid him

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 02 Jun 2009 06:24

I do hope Sri Brown and Sri Milipede win the next polls hands down. No really, I mean it.

Meanwhile, what of the tories?

Europe should be Christian, says Cameron's new ally

ABOUT twenty-four hours. That is how long it took David Cameron's new official allies in Europe, the Polish Law and Justice Party (PiS), to head off message. On Saturday, the British Conservative leader was in Warsaw to launch a new right-of-centre, anti-federalist grouping in the European Parliament, that will take in PiS, the Civic Democrats from the Czech Republic and several other conservative parties, mostly from east and central Europe.

To be precise, Mr Kaczynski said:

"The gentlemen at the PO obviously like to stand at attention and shout "Yes, Sir!" not to say it in another language... The elections will determine whether Poland is represented by people suffering from a national inferiority complex, or by proud and brave Poles who have the courage to demand the rights our nation is entitled to. If Europe is to be strong, it has to be Christian. And today it is anti-Christian, and especially anti-Catholic."

Heh heh, interesting days lie ahead. I fully expect a pooki, BD and SDRE consolidation behind saviors Gordon Brownpants and David Milibandstand. Ukstan can certainly do with Sri Brown's wizard-level financial mgmt skills.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Jun 2009 17:20

'Real Islam' just a phone call away

UK launches a hotline for Islamic questions modelled on a successful trial in Egypt

The Islamic scholars behind the telephone helpline hope it will combat radicalism in Britain and help ordinary Muslims answer difficult questions about their faith.

But it also sounds a warning - the UK has a large and growing population of young Muslims who are dangerously out of touch with the older generation, and often cut off from the real teaching of their religion.

The hotline's backers have singled out Britain as the country most urgently in need of the service.

Rizwan types in his own question - about whether the traditional Islamic rule that women should travel only with their husband's permission applies in modern Britain.

In Cairo, Prof Aboshady gives his judgement.

He says the rule was designed to protect women at a time when travel was dangerous. In Britain that no longer applies.

Will be interesting to see what happens with this

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Jun 2009 18:08

x-post from the perspectives thread.

Fiscal options for the UK: sovereign insolvency, inflation or serious fiscal pain

William Buiter in FT. Decent read.

But even without the input from the rating agencies, it would have been clear that the UK is about to exit its AAA status. It shares this fate with most of the other G7 countries. In two or three years, Canada may be the only G7 country left to have an AAA rating. France could conceivably join Canada. There is nothing too shocking about this. Not that long ago, Japan’s sovereign rating was on a par with Botswana’s (I thought that was rather unfair on Botswana).

I will expand on the case of the UK in what follows, saving a more detailed consideration of the US fiscal predicament (which is much worse than that of the UK) for a future post.

UK state debt is expected to rise from just over 50 percent of annual GDP today to over 100 percent of GDP in four or five years time. With deficits of 12 percent of GDP or higher very likely during the next couple of years, there needs to be a decent recovery by the end of the 2010 for the debt burden not to rise even faster. Net interest payments on the public debt (currently a low 1.83 percent of GDP - an average effective interest rate of 3.6 percent) will double even if interest rates remain at their extremely low current levels, something I consider unlikely.

During the decade preceding the crisis, tax revenues were flattered increasingly by the unsustainable housing boom and the profit and income explosion in the financial sector. Such easy revenue pickings are unlikely to be forthcoming in the future, even if the economy recovers as hoped by all and expected by a few.

It is likely that the path of potential output in the UK will turn out to be lower because of the crisis. The UK Treasury estimates that a combination of a permanently higher cost of capital and a reduction in the effective supply of labour (due to lower net immigration and hysteresis’ effects from higher unemployment) will knock five percent off the level of the path of potential output.

Let’s assume, conservatively, that a doubling of the debt-to-GDP ratio from 50 to 100 percent raises the required real rate of interest by one percentage point.

The permanent primary surplus (as a share of GDP), p, the permanent seigniorage (as a share of GDP), s, the state debt (as a share of GDP), b, the long-term real interest rate, r, and the long-term growth rate of real GDP, g) can be used to write the solvency constraint of the state as follows:

p + s ≥ (r - g)b (1)

Permanent means roughly ‘long-run future average’. UK long-term real sovereign interest rates (20 years maturity or over yields on index-linked debt) are around one percent today. The long-run growth rate of real GDP is probably somewhere between 2.25 percent and 2.50 percent per annum. Bingo! The UK government lives in Ponzi land: with the growth rate of GDP (roughly the growth rate of the tax base) higher than the interest rate on the public debt forever, the government can always service its outstanding debt by issuing more debt. Primary surpluses, or monetary financing are never required. Bernie Madoff, come home, all is forgiven.

Devastating clarity onlee. Real danger for 'em elitemen if hajaar commons start to understand th emperor is naked onlee and reject debt-driven serfdom...

Read it all, janta.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jun 2009 19:42

vsudhir wrote:Ministers' 'Expenses' Prompt Explanation From U.K.'s Brown

LONDON -- The U.K. prime minister and several officials are embroiled in a public fray over their use of taxpayer funds to cover their expenses, giving rise to another embarrassment for Gordon Brown's government.

Mr. Brown was forced to issue an explanation Friday after a London-based newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, published details of the expenses he and other officials claimed while serving in Parliament.
Wow. Telegraf set out to embarass Sri Brown himself? Good luck with that!

The triviality of some expenses could prove embarrassing for politicians. Foreign Secretary David Miliband's claim for a £199 baby stroller was rejected. {:(( Waaaah! } Former deputy prime minister John Prescott had a toilet seat in his home repaired twice in two years at taxpayer expense.{Wonder what he was flushing down the tubes so much....} Spokeswomen for Messrs. Miliband and Prescott and a spokesman for Ms. Blears said they followed the rules laid out by parliamentary authorities. {No doubt, they did}

Wish our netas could provide similar comic relief amidst so much ennui with their old corruption games....

I think milliband's claim for the baby stroller is reasonable and should be passed.

Considering that he has plenty of time on his hands during working hours, he seems to have put it to good use and has atleast been productive. ( if not diplomatically because he failed to screw India and Lanka

)

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Jun 2009 20:22

Considering that the Honorable Foreign Secretary is away on many international missions most of the time, besides buying a stroller, he could ask himself why the cute baby has got so many locks in the hair!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Jun 2009 04:25

Sharia law 'same' as Krays' rule, says Lord Tebbit

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Jun 2009 04:25

Indignity and chaos rule. Who will put this exhausted, discredited and ridiculous regime out of its misery?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 05 Jun 2009 12:55

Gerard wrote:Sharia law 'same' as Krays' rule, says Lord Tebbit

Is he calling them Kangaroo courts?

Isn't that disrespect of british law and contempt of such courts?

Shouldn't he be tried in a sharia court and flogged? Or is that a too lenient punishment for such a serious crime?

Urgent comments from law experts required.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Jun 2009 15:59

Brown on the ropes as his minsters resign in sequence and Labour gets a thrashing in the local and EU elections.

Labour crushed in Lincoln and Bristol but fare better in Scotland

By Tim Walsh, Press Association
Friday, 5 June 2009
Labour crushed in Lincoln and Bristol but fare better in Scotland

By Tim Walsh, Press Association

http://www.independent.co.uk/?CMP=ILC-refresh

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 08 Jun 2009 11:16

Avinash R wrote:Urgent comments from law experts required.

Lord Tebbitt was the same guy who said that Indians in Britain should not be able to root for the Indian cricket team because they lived in Britain. While I think it was ridiculously harsh of him to call the courts enforcers "gangsters", I don't think religious courts of any kind have any place in a liberal democracy.

If you read the comments of supporters, they make arguments along the lines of "the courts cannot make decisions that go against British law", etc. So then, tell me again what is the point of shariah and beth din courts?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jun 2009 12:16

Brown on the brink as Labour is routed in the EU elections with even the unltra nationalist BNP party's Nick Griffin leader getting elected.

Griffin's quote:
"Mr Griffin said that Labour was paying the price for turning the country into "a crime-ridden slum with no industry left" ..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 99487.html

Brown on the brink after Labour routed in Euro poll
By Gavin Cordon and Emily Ashton, Press Association

Gordon Brown shows the strain during a meeting with Labour activists in east London yesterday

Gordon Brown's political survival hung in the balance today as Labour suffered a devastating rout in the European elections.

The party was beaten into third place by the UK Independence Party (Ukip) in the popular vote while the far right British National Party achieved a major breakthrough by gaining its first Euro seats.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jun 2009 16:00

A scathing indictment from the Times UK on Gordon Brown and his disintegrating govt.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 458556.ece

No leader, no ideas: a party at the gates of Hell

Even some of his new Cabinet question the strength of a Prime Minister who now lacks any sense of political directionRachel Sylvester
This is a government of the living dead, a zombie administration, devastated, divided and directionless. The Prime Minister has been wounded but not killed. He limps on, disrespected by ministers, resented by backbenchers, disliked by the electorate. He is in office but not in power, strong enough to see off a cack-handed coup but too weak to appoint a chancellor of his choice. Yesterday another minister, Jane Kennedy, resigned in protest about his bullying political style.

Labour politicians are stuck in limbo, like the uncommitted at the gates of Hell in Dante's Inferno, pursued by wasps and eaten by maggots as punishment for thinking of their own self-interest. “Abandon all hope ye who enter here,” read the words above the door that leads to political oblivion.

The governing party is reeling from election results that are truly dire. For the first time since the First World War, Labour now has fewer local councillors than the Liberals and, in the European elections, it secured just 15 per cent of the popular vote. The British National Party won two seats in the European Parliament - not because more people agree with its racist views but because support for Labour has slumped.

Mr Brown's personal authority is shot to pieces. Although he managed to form a Cabinet, several of its members continue to question his leadership abilities. I am told that even yesterday David Miliband was still considering going privately to tell the Prime Minister that he should stand down. Had James Purnell waited until then to resign, it is said that Mr Miliband could have been ready to join him, using the local and European election results as evidence of Mr Brown's lack of appeal. Even if Mr Miliband now does nothing, it is not good to have a foreign secretary with such a low opinion of a prime minister.

Background
Allies and rebels unite to give Brown a break
Gordon Brown’s legacy is a nation divided
Brown loses another minister after poll rout
Party politics and putting the country first
Tessa Jowell - promoted to the Cabinet last week - is among the ministers who have told Mr Brown to his face that he must change. There was a mass revolt around the top table at the suggestion that Alistair Darling might be replaced with Ed Balls. The Chancellor himself will not easily forgive the man next door. Even some of those declaring their loyalty in public admit privately that they do not think Mr Brown can win a general election. “It's hard to see how the narrative around Gordon and the Labour Party can change,” one said. “There just aren't any new ideas.”

According to one government aide, “the balance of power has changed” in Government. “There will be no negative briefings from No 10,” she said. “They wouldn't dare smear us because they know what would happen if they did.”

Labour is fracturing fast, with Blairite turning on Blairite and the Brownites divided among themselves.

Even the sisterhood is squabbling about whether there is sexism in No10. The plotters are disorganised, the Left is sticking with Mr Brown hoping that the party will move in its direction after an election defeat. At last night's meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party, some MPs openly called on their leader to stand down. The Prime Minister won a reprieve by promising to govern in a different way.

Lord Mandelson is masterminding the fightback - it is no coincidence that he has a picture of Elizabeth 1 on his office wall. The real deputy prime minister is even willing to delay his policy to part-privatise the Royal Mail to head off the Labour rebellion. A “national plan” for the economy and domestic policy will be published - probably next week. “New Labour is not about faces, it's about policies,” the man who is now First Secretary likes to say.

But what are the new ideas? Mr Brown is determined to cling on to power but seems unable to say what he intends to do with the next 11 months. It is two years since the Prime Minister promised to give us his “vision”. As one of his advisers admits: “The cupboard is bare.”

When the expenses scandal broke, Mr Brown promised a constitutional revolution - but it turned out he meant a new Cabinet sub-committee on “democratic renewal”.

Ministers report a sense of paralysis in the centre. Where are the radical plans for schools, crime policy or health? If anything, it looks as if Labour has moved away from choice in the public services towards a more statist approach. Mr Brown's allies argue that there are no ideological differences within the Labour Party - and that the rebels just want a more “touchy-feely” figure at the top. In fact several of the ministers who resigned had become increasingly frustrated by the direction of travel and what one calls the “policy vacuum” in Downing Street.

Hazel Blears intends to use her position on the backbenches to argue for greater decentralisation of power in the public services - and a return to the so-called respect agenda promoted by Tony Blair and sidelined by Mr Brown.

According to friends, she was frustrated that her plans to give more control to individuals over their lives, in a White Paper last year, were blocked by Mr Brown. Caroline Flint was also irritated that the proposal she drew up as Housing Minister to force council house tenants to look for a job was dropped by No 10.

Mr Purnell was not just concerned about Mr Brown's inability to communicate with the voters - he was also worried by what he saw as a slow but sure drift away from new Labour. As one Cabinet minister who did not resign says: “Gordon just doesn't understand Middle England.”

In an interview published in the New Statesman shortly before he returned to the Government, Lord Mandelson warned against “nodding in this direction, then that direction... without any clear purposeful direction”. But many in the party think this is what is Mr Brown is still doing. He lives to fight another day - but for what purpose? The danger is that like the Fisher King in T.S. Eliot's poem he will sit, powerless as the party behind him turns into a Waste Land.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 09 Jun 2009 20:51

Philip wrote:Brown on the brink as Labour is routed in the EU elections with even the unltra nationalist BNP party's Nick Griffin leader getting elected.

Scary, huh? They apparently picked up two seats which was way higher than they'd ever actually become.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 09 Jun 2009 22:35

^^^
Interesting times in lendenistan..
Wonder how will things pan out between the BNP & 'em pissful youts...
AoA to both sides...

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Jun 2009 22:57

Keshav wrote: Scary, huh? They apparently picked up two seats which was way higher than they'd ever actually become.

Why?? It is time for UK to address the root cause of the racial tensions.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Jun 2009 11:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU70qAfQAo8

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 11 Jun 2009 20:25

British troops take brunt of huge rise in Taliban attacks in Afghanistan

Deaths of foreign troops up 78% on a year ago

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jun 2009 03:22

a couple of years back the BNP were trying to open talks with Sikh groups to open a common front against Islamist groups - particularly against the northern english drug pushers and pimps aka jehadists. no surprise where the BNP won seats...

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 12 Jun 2009 03:34

Lalmohan wrote:a couple of years back the BNP were trying to open talks with Sikh groups to open a common front against Islamist groups - particularly against the northern english drug pushers and pimps aka jehadists. no surprise where the BNP won seats...

Very very interesting indeed. Any links pls?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 12 Jun 2009 03:38

vsudhir wrote:Very very interesting indeed. Any links pls?

vsudhir saar I got this link after googling ....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/dec/23/race.politics

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 12 Jun 2009 03:43

Thx pgbhat bhai.

I continue to hope and pray Sri Brown and Sri Miliband return to power in the next polls. Their inspiring leadership will do more to open scaled eyes in yindia than anything else. Besides, UKstan merits no less.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 12 Jun 2009 04:08

Kiss and Patel

There's more to Patel than just being one of Britain's most common surnames - it's a club too, in which members like to marry others with the same last name.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8095032.stm

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 12 Jun 2009 04:14

Ameet wrote:Kiss and Patel

There's more to Patel than just being one of Britain's most common surnames - it's a club too, in which members like to marry others with the same last name.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8095032.stm

Same thing happens in massa as well. Seen a lot of Patel-Patel couples here among ABCDs.
C== Cultured

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Jun 2009 02:19

the BNP are doing well thanks to the credit crunch and the hapless state of the mainstream parties, its 1920's Germany all over again in some respects, but these guys are still marginal players with no depth. Once they have gotten rid of the muslims they will turn their jackboots against the next minority group in line. once the economy improves and the mainstream parties lose some of their PC'ness towards Islamists, support for the BNP will evaporate again. enemie's enemy is not a friend.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Jun 2009 03:48

O yes. The parallels with the 20s and 30s eurostan isn't misplaced at all. Eurostan was growing then, plenty of young people, lots of fresh blood and energy looking for an outlet, the conquest of major diseases and child mortality had taken off bigtime by then on the continent.

Right now, the youth, energy etc belong to the islamic camp. The native eurostanis are ageing, unwilling to burden themselves with bareknucled fights, interested more in eking out pensions, retirements, healthcare and such. Another generation and the tide will have turned, demographically speaking. Strictly IMVVHO of course.

And no, moi is no fan of the racist BNP. They're a problem, no doubt. All I await is the first spark of breakout against prevailing multiculti orthodoxy that ends up tolerating packiness and encouraging fundamentalist islam, in eurostan, while the euros still have the numbers in their favor, even if just about so. (I am aware that such dire demographic cassandra-ism is subject to much skepticism in sophisticated circles). The fake-liberalism that excuses, apologizes for and shields radical islam in UKstan does no favors to the yindooze and sikhs there, IMHO.

I haven't forgotten Sri Miliband lecturing us SDREs from on location in Mumbai painfully soon after 26/11 that our past and potentially future intolerance of our minorities is what is causing these issues. So yes, once the showdown starts in eurostan, I look fwd to lecturing the europreenies a thing or two about 'sensitivity to minorities'.

Anyway, its going OT. Std disclaimers apply, JMTs etc.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 13 Jun 2009 06:15

In my opinon, Eurabia is in Indian interests. The more islamic europe becomes, the more in line the Europeans will be to Indian interests. Other wise they will be back to sqare one hypocratically lecturing others about 'human rights', doing equal equal between India and pakis etc while at the same time making sure that their economic and military dominance is not challenged. Think about it, India was ocillating between first and second largest economy of the world even during the not always Hindu friendly Mughal Empire.But that dominance was lost once the europeans entered.If India has to rise again, the west has to go down.Neither China nor a imagined 'ummah' has and will have the ability to replace the west in entirety.This will automatically lead to multi polar world with India again as one of the top two powers.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Jun 2009 15:29

Rony - your assumption of a zero sum game, whilst plausible may not be entirely valid. imperialist capitalism was extractive and exploitative and inherently zero sum, but the globalisation model (if it survives the current recession, and well it might) may not be so starkly win-lose game theorized.

as far as islamism in europe is concerned, the majority opinion is that its already gone too far. the current prosperity model (which we need to see if it survives the recession) was largely inclusive, with the possible exception of the islamists - i.e. those that did not subscribe to or benefit from the past two decades of politial liberalism. Most non muslim minorities have definitely prospered and thrived in these times in Europe and established their own vibrant hybrid identities, atleast in the UK, France, Germany and Netherlands. Which also has to be seen in the backdrop of a greater European cultural mixing in the mould of the American model - and its attendant loss of European identity. In a sense the Islamists are rejecting the homogenized American style mall and pop prosperity culture, which everyone else - even sitting in Thailand or India or even China has subscribed to.

Perhaps the rest of us are willing to go along with the American framework and adapt it to our preferences, whilst the Islamists are proposing a different one. The stark choice before us is which of these frameworks do we wish to subscribe to and which will we fight against.

Personally I don't think there is anymore ground left to concede to the islamists, anywhere. its already close to the revolutionary tipping point

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Jun 2009 16:30

Personally I don't think there is anymore ground left to concede to the islamists, anywhere. its already close to the revolutionary tipping point.

Time will tell.
The independence granted to Kosovo militates against the notion that the establishment in the west 'gets it'. Oil won't run out for the next 2-3 decades at least and thats plenty of time for the islamism sponsors in the Arab world, I reckon. No, it won't be simple or straightfwd. Time will tell which way things go.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 13 Jun 2009 16:43

the establishment(s) is/are neither benign nor omniscient(? is there such a word!??). they take their cue from unkil. note how unkil got mad when france stepped out of line... ofcourse sarko has brought it all back in line again, so unkil is khush.

kosovo was a means to and end, one to slap serbia for being irritating in the 90's and by proxy the russians in case they get any grand ideas. side benefit of making al saud khush. possibly perceived as of propaganda value against the islamists. either way, there has been no gratitude points forthcoming, only more of the 'muslims are victims onlee' paranoia. ultimately the arabs know that if the west doesn't buy their oil, they can't drink it - hence some form of ugly stability.

i think that the islamists are to some extent fighting the global domination game in the old paradigm of military power, whereas the new paradigm is economic power - see the Chinese shift aggressively into this space. Ofcourse you need a back up of strong military power, but its there in case, not as the first tool. the islamists are applying assymetric military force as a first tool and retreating into the 'victims onlee' safe zone to make unkil look bad. i think there inability to control economic levers of power (even oil) will be their undoing.